The difference between boundaries and control

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm often accused of having no boundaries and not being able to respect anyone else's either.

As much as I try to look at myself and see where my problem lies, I can't logically see any truth in that implication.

For me, respecting others boundaries is seeing them as an individual, respecting their right to be whoever they choose to be and stepping back if I find their choices to be unhealthy for me.

Control would be me telling them who they should be, making them be that person and threatening or punishing them until they are.

Setting a boundary requires that we speak up about what we will and won't accept or clearly define who we are and our preferences.

Are there healthy and unhealthy boundaries?

For example, if my partner has been threatening or abusive and I've become quiet and withdrawn, am I being abusive by not responding to his emotional needs? If, when asked to talk to him about my feelings, I get half way through a sentence and he orders me out of his house, which repeatedly happens, am I being abusive or setting a boundary if I don't share my thoughts in future? Am I abusing him and failing to take responsibility for myself and my feelings if I tell him why I am reluctant to engage in open dialogue?

[thicker skin]

I'm often accused of having no boundaries and not being able to respect anyone else's either.

As much as I try to look at myself and see where my problem lies, I can't logically see any truth in that implication.

For me, respecting others boundaries is seeing them as an individual, respecting their right to be whoever they choose to be and stepping back if I find their choices to be unhealthy for me.

Control would be me telling them who they should be, making them be that person and threatening or punishing them until they are.

Setting a boundary requires that we speak up about what we will and won't accept or clearly define who we are and our preferences.

Are there healthy and unhealthy boundaries?

For example, if my partner has been threatening or abusive and I've become quiet and withdrawn, am I being abusive by not responding to his emotional needs? If, when asked to talk to him about my feelings, I get half way through a sentence and he orders me out of his house, which repeatedly happens, am I being abusive or setting a boundary if I don't share my thoughts in future? Am I abusing him and failing to take responsibility for myself and my feelings if I tell him why I am reluctant to engage in open dialogue?

[janey62]

Hi Thicker Skin,

In my experience it has become more and more clear to me that my uBPDbf reacts very badly to hearing about my feelings, feelings about anything actually (unless they're happy) and not just about him and us, because he can't cope with the guilty feelings he then has in response.  He feels anxious and responsible for solving the problem.  Even when he is in an ok state of mind he can suddenly switch because I've said I'm unhappy about something that has happened completely outside of the relationship.

Basically he can't cope with negative feelings, his own or anyone else's and it sends him into a spin.  I'm learning to keep what I feel and very often what I think to myself.  I talk to friends, if they'll listen, and express myself in this forum.  My partner isn't a sounding board for me and I have to accept that.  I, on the other hand, must listen sympathetically to his feelings and if I don't I am in trouble.

I'm also learning to detach a bit from that.  It's hard... .

Jane

[thicker skin]

I haven't actually considered the option that he can't tolerate my feelings at all... . I've pointed out to him that they can trigger a rage because he feels personally attacked and inadequate if I want or need something simple. It's read as "I'm not good enough then".

I have asked him to name the boundaries that he has set for me that I have ignored, but he can't come up with one, let alone many.

The boundaries that I'm alleged to not have exist largely between his ears... . Revenge sex whilst I've popped out for milk, snorting cocaine, tax evasion, secret bank accounts, meeting men behind his back... . Attractive stuff.

He had a physical fight with his  bil last year which resulted in him needing an operation on his finger and lacerations to his skull. It was horrible. He spent months ruminating and saying he wanted to move, wanted to do time for him, was going to stay and get revenge... . I once said 'let's move then' after a rant and I was instructed to write down a list of what I felt I'd lost when we moved here... . Silly me.

I used to be there for him whenever he needed me, always ready with an ear, shoulder or hand if he needed, but I think my well has run dry after 2 decades. If you dip oit of the well, you occasionally need to put in.

[janey62]

I'm only a year and a half into this relationship with uBPDbf and so not really qualified to say much, especially to someone who has been in it for 20 years! But what I do know is that it's making me crazy.  There are times when I don't know what's real any more and struggle to keep my nose above the water... .

It seems to me that in my bfs eyes I'm either the Evil Queen of the White Witch, good or bad, friend of foe... . his thinking is pretty much black or white about most things, me included.  So if I tell him, as I did today when asked again and again, that I'm feeling a bit low and flat, he hears, as you rightly say, an attack and an accusation of his inadequacy.  He told me he's sick of being made to feel terrible by me, even though the reason I feel low and flat (an understatement by the way) is because of 18 months of emotional battering by him.  It could go on and on, back and forth.  The thing is, I don't think they can reason things out in any rational way, and I think I (we) could begin to lose that ability too if we stay with them for too long. 

My bf said the other day that when it happens to him he thinks with his feelings not his head, that I cease to be me, just the enemy, and that he feels dreadful all consuming fear... . and has to get away from/annihilate the threat.

You just can't reason with that!

xx

[janey62]

I'm often accused of having no boundaries and not being able to respect anyone else's either.

I think this is important!  When they accuse us of something like this I actually think they're referring to themselves.  So for this read, 'Help, I have no boundaries and can't respect anyone else's either, and it feels very uncomfortable and I feel inadequate, so much so that I can't stand it, so I'm going to project it onto you, because you're my voluntary punch bag and the dumping ground for my difficult feelings'.

What do you think?   

[thicker skin]

What do I think? Yikes! Does this site allow expletives? 

I think I've spent the last 5 years with a man who has psychoanalysed my every thought and word, to such a degree, that I barely say anything now, which obviously makes me a narcissistic abuser... . Arghhhhhhh!

As far as black and white thinking goes, here's his take. A couple of years ago, I replied to a post on fb, about people not having the power to make you feel anything... . I said, that I didn't completely agree with that, because someone can make your day with flowers, kind words, good deeds, so surely, someone can impact on your day in a negative way? I was severely told off and diagnosed as a black and white thinker. Believing that everyone wants to sleep with me is normal for him though... .

Projection is seen in his world like this... . If he is rude to me, calls me something nasty, or does something rotten and I choose a quiet time to bring it up, I am projecting onto him. Over here on the psych ward, where I live, I interpret it as him accusing me of something he's thinking or doing but being angry with me for, when I'm not and invariably, if it's coming from his mouth, it's the first I've heard of it and a big shock.

I'm referred to as Snow White. I won't tell you what he calls the 'devil' side of me. I'm currently having a psychotic episode. It's nothing to do with him threatening to smash my head against the wall and throw me outside naked. I need to be as enlightened as he is and learn to live in the present. My narcissism makes me cry and creates the intimacy issues I have. I wish I was as clued up as him 

[janey62]

I don't think you need thicker skin, I think you need to get as far away from this 'psych ward' as you can and try to heal yourself and rebuild your life... .   that's just what I think, sorry, but it sounds as if you're in a really bad place and that there is very little good any more.  Its so crazy that is starts to feel normal?

What about you?  Where are you in all of that?  I'm hearing what he says and does to make your life hell, but you are living with it?  What keeps you in the relationship? 

Have you had a look at this thread, 'encouragement and truth for survivors of BPD' on the Undecided: Staying or Leaving board?  I found it a useful discussion. 

Sending you a 

[thicker skin]

I have, yes. It was utterly beautiful.

I am aware that I need to leave. I've done a swanky new CV and applied for a few jobs this week.

I thought I'd set very firm boundaries with him, but he told some horrendous lies and duped me. That hurt.

I left him in 2006 which brought him to his knees and he got help. My life actually became very beautiful and I was blissfully happy... . Not straight away, it took about a year to get me back.

I triggered this again with a need for a real commitment to our future. He went straight back to the monster I'd left and laughed at me, saying it had all been lies. He'd just been playing me and nothing had changed.

He told me what he would do to me if I left him and made threats against my family, accusing me of disgusting sexual acts etc.

I left him anyway, after 6 months, barely able to hold my head up. He followed through on his threats and went to work on me.

I knew I wasn't nuts ... . I knew I wasn't mentally stable either and he worked me over and over until I got 'help'. I got help alright... . For his punishing and cruel mind and words,  but I'd already gone back. He uses the kids, money, threats etc to keep me where he needs me. I no longer care what he does to me. I really don't think he can hurt me anymore than he already has.

I'm detaching, getting my own mind back and trying to piece together a future for me and my big babies. It hurts to be in this situation after 22 years, but there must be better somewhere, waiting for me... . At least, that's what I tell myself every night.

Xxx

[an0ught]

Setting a boundary requires that we speak up about what we will and won't accept or clearly define who we are and our preferences.

Boundaries are yours. You may inform others of your boundaries but ultimately they need to be under your control. Discussing boundaries with a pwBPD can sometimes be triggering and usually does not change the impulse when push comes to shove. Informing may limit the fallout of a boundary conflict so it can be useful. But respect of boundaries for a pwBPD is a hard earned skill acquired through repeated and unsuccessful bumps into some.

Are there healthy and unhealthy boundaries?

Sure

For example, if my partner has been threatening or abusive and I've become quiet and withdrawn, am I being abusive by not responding to his emotional needs? If, when asked to talk to him about my feelings, I get half way through a sentence and he orders me out of his house, which repeatedly happens, am I being abusive or setting a boundary if I don't share my thoughts in future? Am I abusing him and failing to take responsibility for myself and my feelings if I tell him why I am reluctant to engage in open dialogue?

Sharing your own emotions can be quickly invalidating and should be only done carefully. S.E.T. is a good vehicle with T being your own emotions. During dysregulation it is not advisable to do so for obvious reasons so it is a sensible boundary.

Regard the remainder of your thoughts it may be worth considering the scenario that you do not have to respond to his request at all. Instead of answering his questions simply validate. You do not need to justify yourself to him. Justify is the J in JADE (Justify Argue Defend and Explain) and any of that tends to be invalidating and triggering.

How do you do thicker skin?

... . does this demand an answer or an response? What is the difference?

[thicker skin]

Thank you an0ught 

With regard to your question, 'How do you do?' requires a response, unless it's an unwarranted intrusion in a completely inappropriate situation ie from a drunk whilst shopping.

It's a gentle enquiry, rather than a demanding question, which would invite me to willingly respond.

I don't have this issue with anyone else in my life. People generally find me very easy to talk to.

I think we have a big clash of values/boundaries. His boundaries state that no woman will take him for half of anything or leave him, unless it's his idea. The goal posts regularly shift and just when you think you're getting it right, you suddenly find it's all completely wrong, even though you've been doing exactly what you were asked to do.

Mine say that no man will verbally abuse me, sexually degrade me, take me for granted, threaten me or treat me as an option. If he does, I am not obligated to share my body, mind or give so much of myself that I forgo my own normal needs. This is seen as abusive by my SO. He thinks I have control issues and am refusing to do as I am told to punish him. He can think what he likes, but not for me.

Are my boundaries reasonable and how do I assert them without enabling him or eliciting DV or immediate eviction?