Is "Paint You Black" Lying a Form of Abuse?

[Somewhere]

maybe i'm missing the point of this thread,

Sure.  Followed a fair amount of that.

but it takes 2 to tango... . and there are 2 sides to every story.   

Not when you are dealing with Poop Throwing Monkeys.  Only takes one of them -- whether you feel like tangoing -- or not.

our aim here at L6 is to put the focus on ourselves now rather than still the pwBPD, right?

Sure, and changing our behaviors and responses to keep the poop off us.

[ucmeicu2]

but it takes 2 to tango... . and there are 2 sides to every story.   

Not when you are dealing with Poop Throwing Monkeys.  Only takes one of them -- whether you feel like tangoing -- or not.

our aim here at L6 is to put the focus on ourselves now rather than still the pwBPD, right?

Sure, and changing our behaviors and responses to keep the poop off us.

yes, Somewhere, everyone even poop throwing monkeys have their own side of a story.  or, to quote Skip, i think he may have been alluding to the same thing when he said earlier "So, when your husband seems to twist the facts to fit his feelings, it's probably how he honestly sees things."

it sounds like you're staying and trying to improve your r/s with your pwBPD ~ maybe this would be better posted on [L5] Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner.

[Tausk]

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

I have to weigh in here and say it's absolutely a form of abuse - speaking only from my experience - which was with an extremely abusive BPD man.  He is capable of acting completely rational in front of other people in the blink of an eye after intensely raging at me for delusions he made up in his head.  He absolutely has control of his behavior - except with me.  But is that loss of behavior?  or a calculated move.  I can't help but now believe it's totally intentional.  It's his way to control me - even after the break up.  

If someone is able to control their emotions around others, they are able to control it around you.  And raging at you or painting you black with lies is without a doubt a form of abuse from this type of person... .

Yes!

Excellent point Take2.

I've read that abusers are systematic... that they can be behave very well around certain people and only target certain people. They may suck up to powerful and influential people e.g. work mates, their boss etc but then behave in an abusive way towards their romantic partner behind closed doors.

The abuser may choose to be abusive towards their romantic partner for a number of reasons:

-If it's a male abuser, then he may have a hatred of women. He may hold patriarchal views of women.

-If it's a female abuser, then she may hate men and think that "all men are the same".

-The abuser may earn more money than the victim so they can exert financial control over the person in that way

-The abuser may think that the victim is "an easy target"... maybe the victim has a passive communication style and doesn't set down enough boundaries.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's all I can think of right now. I've read up domestic abuse literature and it mentions this kind of thing in it.

I've also read that a personality disorder is NOT an excuse for abusive behavior.

Even a traumatized three year old will act in ways much differently in front of his own parents than with other people.  A three year old may have a tantrum with their parent where in front of strangers they could be upset or unsure and instead of a tantrum, they might just stand there in a dissociative state.  That's what happens with our exes.  We know the dissociative state our exes have with strangers or outside associates.

It doesn't excuse the behavior.  But if we think it's intentional and that there's free will then we can also hope that things will change.  And that is our personal inventory.  Why would we believe in any change from a person with this Disorder.  It's not within their abilities.  They don't have the capacity.  It will never change, and they will never treat us better.  They are responsible for the abusive behavior the first time, and the first time only.

After that, we are responsible to put up the boundaries.  After the first time, for any person who can walk away,  it's not abuse, in the traditional sense.   It's not abuse when we walk into the destruction voluntarily and with open awareness that it will happen.

But the partner's response is often,  "Isn't the person with BPD responsible for his own behavior.  Isn't he responsible to change?'"  It's a DISORDER.  And one major characteristic of this Disorder is that pwBPD lack fundamental abilities to take responsibilities in certain situations.  It's a DISORDER that revolves around relationships.  And the more intimate the relationship, the less capacity for free will behaviors, the less ability to take responsibility, and the more destructive the Disorder.

It doesn't make it right, but the destruction will happen.  If late at night, you alone walk into a very poor neighborhood with money taped to your body, screaming, "come rob me... . I got money taped to me. "  You will get robbed.  It's not right, but it's not unexpected.  And you certainly weren't a typical victim in that case.

The very word abuse for me was victim language.  Or exes feel that when ask them to control their behavior it's us being abusive.  We are doing the same thing.  We are asking them to control their behavior and when they don't we are calling them abusive.

There are many people in the world who through power dynamics are truly victims of abuse.  Political prisoners being tortured in jails.  Girls working as sex slaves, servicing fifty men a day.  Women who can't leave a violent husband, because she has no where to go and no resources to protect her or her children.  These are victims of abuse.

IMHO, to say that I'm a victim of abuse because I chose to stay with a F'ed up partner wBPD, discredits the concept of being a victim of abuse, and spits in the face of the hardships those people who are truly victims have to deal with.  Yes, I suffer from PTSD.  I am locked in a trauma bond.  I suffer from FOO issues.  And YES, I suffered abuse when I was a child from a mother with BPD.  But I have choices today.  

Again, IMHO... . and with all due respect, I understand the pain and confusion, but if you believe things will change, or if you believe that you can do anything that will force real change in a pwBPD, then you are in for a long nightmare of a life.  The Disorder always wins.  The Disorder is bigger than anyone else.  The Disorder needs participants.  And parts of the Disorder are contagious, so the longer we are near it, the more we take on the behaviors of the Disorder.  

[Mutt]

The Disorder always wins.

I don't believe this. I don't think that you can generalize everything as an absolute. I don't know how many times I've witnessed acts of impulsivity, "I'll show you!" type mentality / behavior due to a disorder, where there's a complete lack of thinking things through, and it self implodes. It's tragic to watch, much like a train wreck.

[Tausk]

The Disorder always wins.

I don't believe this. I don't think that you can generalize everything as an absolute. I don't know how many times I've witnessed acts of impulsivity, "I'll show you!" type mentality / behavior due to a disorder, where there's a complete lack of thinking things through, and it self implodes. It's tragic to watch, much like a train wreck.

Yes, there is a spectrum.  And absolutes are dangerous.  But the cliches are what need to be repeated in order to recover.

What you write above, this is the Disorder winning.  It's a Disorder.  Winning does not have the same parameters as the partner's thought process.   The Disorder by nature is self-destructive.  The push/pull.  :)on't leave me/I hate you.  The ability for immense shame but not for guilt.  Abandonment/Engulfment contradictions.   The dissociative states.  

The Disorder of BPD winning is Self-harm and Destruction.  

A pwBPD cutting themselves to shreds is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD cheating on her husband for the fiftieth time is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD, physically abusing the person he cares about the most is the Disorder winning.  The Disorder always wins if an outsider tries try to control it.  All we can do, is either accept certain conditions or walk away.

But an outsider will never control the Disorder.  The Disorder will always win.  

And so not to hijack the post, the state of the Disorder always wins is why I think to myself, although the behavior of my Ex wBPD was clearly wrong and abusive... . I was not a victim of abuse.  Especially after I began to realize that she had BPD.  After that, I was lost in the FOG and just volunteered for more abuse.

If a man likes to visit and pay a dominatrix who whips him bloody with a cat-nine-tails, he may literally be asking for abuse from his Dominatrix, but I would not call him a victim of abuse.

[Mutt]

The Disorder always wins.

I don't believe this. I don't think that you can generalize everything as an absolute. I don't know how many times I've witnessed acts of impulsivity, "I'll show you!" type mentality / behavior due to a disorder, where there's a complete lack of thinking things through, and it self implodes. It's tragic to watch, much like a train wreck.

Yes, there is a spectrum.  And absolutes are dangerous.  But the cliches are what need to be repeated in order to recover.

What you write above, this is the Disorder winning.  It's a Disorder.  Winning does not have the same parameters as the partner's thought process.  A pwBPD cutting themselves to shreds is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD cheating on her husband for the fiftieth time is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD, beating at the person he cares about the most is the Disorder winning.  The Disorder always wins if an outsider tries try to control it.  All we can do, is either accept certain conditions or walk away.

But an outsider will never control the Disorder.  The Disorder will always win.  

Ah I get it now in that context.

I agree. It took me months on here to finally realize that nothing or no one is above this disorder. I wonder how some of them are aware enough inside to sense that there's something off and actually get help. It causes me pain to watch a loved on repeatedly deny that they have an issue, but I accept that it is, what it is... . A series of defense mechanisms to protect the ego. 

[fromheeltoheal]

I agree with everything you wrote tausk, with an addendum; yes, it would be great if we woke up after that first abusive incident, set boundaries, and changed the dynamic of the relationship, or ended it.  Speaking personally, I got lost, so the abuse continued for a while until I woke up, and it was indeed abuse until then.  You say the disorder always wins, which I agree with, although it's not the only winner; when we do wake up to what's going on, and in my case end the relationship, we don't go back to sleep again, that heightened state of awareness doesn't leave us, and I've had a true awakening as a result of the experience, the gift of a borderline.

Ring true for anyone?

[Tausk]

The Disorder always wins.

I don't believe this. I don't think that you can generalize everything as an absolute. I don't know how many times I've witnessed acts of impulsivity, "I'll show you!" type mentality / behavior due to a disorder, where there's a complete lack of thinking things through, and it self implodes. It's tragic to watch, much like a train wreck.

Yes, there is a spectrum.  And absolutes are dangerous.  But the cliches are what need to be repeated in order to recover.

What you write above, this is the Disorder winning.  It's a Disorder.  Winning does not have the same parameters as the partner's thought process.  A pwBPD cutting themselves to shreds is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD cheating on her husband for the fiftieth time is the Disorder winning.  A pwBPD, beating at the person he cares about the most is the Disorder winning.  The Disorder always wins if an outsider tries try to control it.  All we can do, is either accept certain conditions or walk away.

But an outsider will never control the Disorder.  The Disorder will always win.  

Ah I get it now in that context.

I agree. It took me months on here to finally realize that nothing or no one is above this disorder. I wonder how some of them are aware enough inside to sense that there's something off and actually get help. It causes me pain to watch a loved on repeatedly deny that they have an issue, but I accept that it is, what it is... . A series of defense mechanisms to protect the ego. 

Yes, it bring me great sadness when I think of my ex, who had great capacity for joy, know that something was off, but simply not able to do anything about it.  Maybe with me gone, she'll be able to find some relief.  But with me, we were just one giant trigger to each other.  

But part of the problem is that it's not defensive mechanism to protect the ego.  It's defensive mechanisms to protect the lack of an ego.



There's very little or no sense of self.  That's why the impulsive behavior is so difficult for them deflect.  There's not core self to say don't do it.  There's not core self to say, the feelings are not who we are.   There's not core self to even say, I am someone.

It is so very sad.  

[Tausk]

I agree with everything you wrote tausk, with an addendum; yes, it would be great if we woke up after that first abusive incident, set boundaries, and changed the dynamic of the relationship, or ended it.  Speaking personally, I got lost, so the abuse continued for a while until I woke up, and it was indeed abuse until then.  You say the disorder always wins, which I agree with, although it's not the only winner; when we do wake up to what's going on, and in my case end the relationship, we don't go back to sleep again, that heightened state of awareness doesn't leave us, and I've had a true awakening as a result of the experience, the gift of a borderline.

Ring true for anyone?

Agreed.  I am more a person than ever in my life.  It's a gift, and I'm deeply grateful.

And agreed, the actions of my ex were abusive, and I need to work on the PTSD from the abuse.  But for me it's a subtle shift of mentality.  Especially in the depersonalization of the interaction.   The abuse wasn't about me per se, it was the Disorder.  And I happen to be vulnerable to the Disorder.  And I say it in the sense, if I'm still involved, going back to the r/s and expecting change and then being a victim when things don't change, keeps me locked in the disorder.   But I understand triggers from the abuse.  I have them everyday in my life.  No should have to walk around egg shells.  I just got used to it from my childhood.

And yes, I'm winning now.  But my winning did not come from participating in the Disorder Games.  If I would have continued to stay, and continue to stalk, recycle, hope for change from my ex, I would have lost to the Disorder. My winning came from when I pulled out of the Disorder Games.  

[PrettyPlease]

But an outsider will never control the Disorder.  The Disorder will always win.  

You've spoken powerfully, and certainly this happens often, but I can't agree with the 'always'.  You seem to have left out the cases, described elsewhere on this site -- and on other sites, and in other books -- of people with this Disorder who have voluntarily taken treatment, and who, with help, have modified their behavior so much that their closest relations will describe them as 'recovered'.

That's probably a small minority of people with BPD -- but are you saying these don't exist? And that those who attempt to increase this proportion of people should give up?

That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you want to trade clichés.    

PP

[fromheeltoheal]

-- of people with this Disorder who have voluntarily taken treatment, and who, with help, have modified their behavior so much that their closest relations will describe them as 'recovered'.

Yes, although it isn't voluntary.  The disorder was winning for so long that the sufferer was brought to their knees, humbled, it was no longer working, so they were forced to seek help.  Like an alcoholic who must hit bottom before they honestly want to quit drinking and seek help, give up, and become open to solutions.

[Murbay]

After an incident of physical abuse, my exBPDw was so convincing in her perception of events, that I actually felt guilty and as those I deserved it.

During one of her rages, I had said I couldn't speak to her at that point and walked away. Turned about to get my cup off the table and she threw hot coffee over me, causing burns. No remorse and in her mind, perfectly justified because I was blocking the doorway.

She even explained this to T during a joint session because in her mind, she believed what she did was right and justified.

T asked me in a single session if I felt my exBPDw was abusive and I said no. Instead I felt sorry for my abuser and could understand her viewpoint. Stockholm syndrome!

That's part of the reason we don't wake up until we are removed from the situation h2h. It happens in relationsips just as much as hostage situations and cults once we have been broken down enough.

Was it abuse? Yes, it was.

The way I process it. Because she has BPD and has to project her negative thoughts and feelings, had the situation been reversed, would she have seen it as abuse? Yes, she would have.

[Mutt]

You say the disorder always wins, which I agree with, although it's not the only winner; when we do wake up to what's going on, and in my case end the relationship, we don't go back to sleep again, that heightened state of awareness doesn't leave us, and I've had a true awakening as a result of the experience,  the gift of a borderline.

Ring true for anyone?

Bingo! We Have A Winner!

[fromheeltoheal]

After an incident of physical abuse, my exBPDw was so convincing in her perception of events, that I actually felt guilty and as those I deserved it.

During one of her rages, I had said I couldn't speak to her at that point and walked away. Turned about to get my cup off the table and she threw hot coffee over me, causing burns. No remorse and in her mind, perfectly justified because I was blocking the doorway.

She even explained this to T during a joint session because in her mind, she believed what she did was right and justified.

T asked me in a single session if I felt my exBPDw was abusive and I said no. Instead I felt sorry for my abuser and could understand her viewpoint. Stockholm syndrome!

That's part of the reason we don't wake up until we are removed from the situation h2h. It happens in relationsips just as much as hostage situations and cults once we have been broken down enough.

Was it abuse? Yes, it was.

The way I process it. Because she has BPD and has to project her negative thoughts and feelings, had the situation been reversed, would she have seen it as abuse? Yes, she would have.

I didn't get that far in, and I'm sorry you went through that Murbay.  For me, she pushed it too far and I said fck this, while I was still in it, the beginning of my wake up, but I do admit a lot of the wake up happened after I left.

[Tausk]

But an outsider will never control the Disorder.  The Disorder will always win.  

You've spoken powerfully, and certainly this happens often, but I can't agree with the 'always'.  You seem to have left out the cases, described elsewhere on this site -- and on other sites, and in other books -- of people with this Disorder who have voluntarily taken treatment, and who, with help, have modified their behavior so much that their closest relations will describe them as 'recovered'.

That's probably a small minority of people with BPD -- but are you saying these don't exist? And that those who attempt to increase this proportion of people should give up?

That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you want to trade clichés.    

PP

No, I'm not saying that there's not a spectrum.   And to clarify my thoughts on this, can a partner force changes in the pwBPD?   IMHO if I am expecting change through my participation in the Disorder, then I am bound to lose.  

If I set boundaries.  If take care of issues on my side of the fence.  Then there's hope that things might change.  But I must radically accept that I can not force any changes from anyone, especially someone wBPD.  

The responses of my ex are not personal to how much she loved me or didn't love me, it was a function of how destructive her Disorder was in her.   And I have to realize that I can not force a cure or even control the Disorder.  All I can do, is take care of myself.

And in the above actions, I am not participating in the Disorder, and I am not losing to the Disorder.  I am not expecting to control the Disorder.    I am trying to modify my behavior.  It's a subtle but very important difference.  It eliminates the game playing on my side of the thought process of, "Maybe if I do this, she'll change."

Again, it's the subtle thought process.  Similar to the fact that although I was on the receiving end of an abusive interaction.  I was not a classic victim without any choices.  And it was not personal.    

Thanks for your comments.  I'll try and be more defined in my writings.  And yes by no means are things Black and White.  I usually write on the Leaving Board, and there it's more important for detachment to realize that we aren't going to change our exes.  But on this board, I have to realize that some are staying and working and to define my cliches in a better light.  

My ex is not evil.  She is ill.  And I do feel great sadness and compassion for her.  I wish things could have turned out differently.

[MrFox]

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

1.)  Yes, it is abusive.

2.)  Yes as well, which is why they then go to such lengths to justify it to themselves and others.  Even if they don't "know" it's wrong, it still is.  I refuse to excuse this kind of behavior due to BPD.  It's the reason, not the excuse.  They have the defense mechanisms of a child but they are adults and responsible for the things they do.

[Mutt]

My ex is not evil.  She is ill.  And I do feel great sadness and compassion for her.  I wish things could have turned out differently.

1.)  Yes, it is abusive.

2.)  Yes as well, which is why they then go to such lengths to justify it to themselves and others.  Even if they don't "know" it's wrong, it still is.  I refuse to excuse this kind of behavior due to BPD.  It's the reason, not the excuse.  They have the defense mechanisms of a child but they are adults and responsible for the things they do.

Quite a difference in contrast. They have the defense mechanisms and they act like children in an adult body. They don't know how to soothe themselves and project the negative emotions on others. My ex can sound scary through her projections but I do think that she doesn't know how to communicate her feelings either. I'm using projection as an example because it's something that's done sub-consciously. If I don't take what she is literally saying to heart as I used to, I react differently to it. Now I don't think that I'm being abused, I actually read between the lines to see what she is communicating and it's her feelings and fear.

But when I was in the r/s, I took the words literally because I didn't know any better about this disorder and it was abusive.

[Somewhere]

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

1.)  Yes, it is abusive.

2.)  Yes as well, which is why they then go to such lengths to justify it to themselves and others.  Even if they don't "know" it's wrong, it still is.  I refuse to excuse this kind of behavior due to BPD.  It's the reason, not the excuse.  They have the defense mechanisms of a child but they are adults and responsible for the things they do.

Of course.  

Thank you all so much for helping me get clarity on this.

[ucmeicu2]

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

1.)  Yes, it is abusive.

2.)  Yes as well, which is why they then go to such lengths to justify it to themselves and others.  Even if they don't "know" it's wrong, it still is.  I refuse to excuse this kind of behavior due to BPD.  It's the reason, not the excuse.  They have the defense mechanisms of a child but they are adults and responsible for the things they do.

Of course.  

Thank you all so much for helping me get clarity on this.

i like the way you read thru all the opinions until you found the one that jibes with your own.   

i'm not quite clear, Somewhere, on your intense focus on your BPDh being labeled... .   if you want to talk abt responsibility, what about yours?  how many yrs have you stayed with this behavior that you seem quite muchly to want to define as "abuse"?  do you somehow feel that if he is fully culpable, that lets you off the hook?  as i said previously, it takes 2 to tango.  the BPD relationship is a Dance that BOTH parties participate in and are responsible for.  and frankly, if anything, i'd think the "Non" (presumably you) has even more responsibility in the hot mess.  after all, we are more NORMAL than them, eh?   

[Tausk]

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

1.)  Yes, it is abusive.

2.)  Yes as well, which is why they then go to such lengths to justify it to themselves and others.  Even if they don't "know" it's wrong, it still is.  I refuse to excuse this kind of behavior due to BPD.  It's the reason, not the excuse.  They have the defense mechanisms of a child but they are adults and responsible for the things they do.

Of course.  

Thank you all so much for helping me get clarity on this.

Yes it is abusive.  It's not right.  It's destructive.  It's painful.  

Are we "victims" or volunteers.  And even if we are victims it's not how we feel that counts but what our response that determines if we recover.  Seeking punishment and revenge is dangerous, because it's seeking retribution on someone who has the emotional maturity of a three year old.

The danger of punishment and revenge is not so much dangerous to our exes, since they already live in hell.  The danger is to us on this side of the board, since victim mentality, and living in anger, resentment and self denial can lead to a life time of suffering at the hands of the Disorder.

Recovering from the Disorder is very similar to recovering from addiction.  And the fact of the matter is that some people do not recover.  Some people stay in the suffering from the the Disorder for the rest of their lives.  And the bitterness can easily turn us into mean old cat ladies or cranky old men who hate kids on their lawns.

We expect our exes to be able to control their behavior. Yet, when we know it's a Disorder and we know what we need to do to recover, so often we on this board don't follow through with mindfulness regarding our own behavior.  

Compassion, not excuses, for my ex, permits me compassion for myself, and forgiveness for myself.  Then the joys of recover possible.

[Somewhere]

i like the way you read thru all the opinions until you found the one that jibes with your own.  

Actually I do not think you do like it.  But fortunately along this path I have learned Passive Aggressive code, as well.  I started with no opinion.  You brought one, thank you, I merely rejected it.  You will get over it.

i'm not quite clear, Somewhere, on your intense focus on your BPDh being labeled... .    

I follow that, you have stated over that you do not understand, but yet insist you know.  See why I do not merit it?

if you want to talk abt responsibility, what about yours?

When it comes to addictive behavior -- Triple C -- you know that?

how many yrs have you stayed with this behavior that you seem quite muchly to want to define as "abuse"?  do you somehow feel that if he is fully culpable, that lets you off the hook?  as i said previously, it takes 2 to tango.  the BPD relationship is a Dance that BOTH parties participate in and are responsible for.  and frankly, if anything, i'd think the "Non" (presumably you) has even more responsibility in the hot mess.  after all, we are more NORMAL than them, eh?  

Well, again the BPD is a she, and it is not a hook or other matter.  She returned about a year ago from Rehab (Eating Disorder) with a Compulsive Lying issue.  Have discussed that matter in depth other AA folks (she is AA, I am Alanon).  It is not usual, but not uncommon for Compulsive Lying to kick in during the first year after an addiction is lifted.  

However, in all that -- her Eating Disorder HAD kept her BPD issues largely in check -- as in prior times did Cutting, Alcohol, and some Drug use -- a skilled BPD can use those disorders to sedate their BPD issues.  We can do a review of the recent fMRI Brain Scan studies to verify that, but I would emphasize that is NOT the point of this thread.  

The Rehab managed to stop the Eating Disorder, but had NO IDEA what they were doing with deep and significant psych issues they uncovered.  They called and advised us that they were shipping her out, lying to her that she was "ok," but should be in Therapy immediately.  

Part of her extreme Emotional Dysregulation this last year has been the lying.  So much so that the kids and I made a "God Box" of 100 Lies in 100 Days, as sort of a take-off on the required 90 meetings in 90 days.

My question was simply is when she is doing lying in a clearly hostile, back-stab manor -- as was well described early in this thread -- is it an abusive behavior?  And if so I should take hard steps to STOP it towards Me, the Kids, and Others.

That was all asked and answered -- thank you bpdfamily.com!

Now you may return to your grand philosophy and daydreams.

[Somewhere]

 

Are we "victims" or volunteers.  

I have to say that particular aspect or question was never really asked nor answered in the scope of this thread.

More just the simple two points:

1. Is it abuse?

2. Can the BPD person choose to stop this?

It looks like a double yes.

So enforcing the STOP of abusive behavior precludes the need for any victim (or volunteer), anywhere.

That is what real self-responsibility looks like.

[Tausk]

 

Are we "victims" or volunteers.  

I have to say that particular aspect or question was never really asked nor answered in the scope of this thread.

More just the simple two points:

1. Is it abuse?

2. Can the BPD person choose to stop this?

It looks like a double yes.

So enforcing the STOP of abusive behavior precludes the need for any victim (or volunteer), anywhere.

That is what real self-responsibility looks like.

Can they chose to stop this?  A yes?  How can you say this?  Your wife can't even choose to bring herself to eat.  On top of that you mention cutting and alcohol and drug addiction.  Can she stop taking a knife to her arms?  She's brutally low functioning.  How could she be able to stop responses to her emotions, which for a BPD is almost overwhelming.  It's very possible that she'll live the rest of her live in pure hell and/or won't survive much longer.

And the question still remains, why/how are you stopping the behavior.  Are you doing this for punishment of your ex?  Is her behavior harming you at this point? Are the children in danger?  If it were just the two you at issue here, it wouldn't matter much.   But collateral damage to the children is inevitable.  

IMHO, the only issue of real importance is how are your kids going to survive the two of you?

And what is important is what response by you will result in the least amount of damage to everyone, including your children.  Vilifying your wife to your kids will only cause them to become even more f'ed up as well.   Children with a parent wBPD need to depersonalize the behavior. They need to understand that parent who is ill is not evil, and that the inappropriate behavior directed at them is not personal to their self worth, or the worth of their parent, but just a result of the Disorder.  And the main source of this knowledge and understanding when they are young comes from watching the "sane" parent.

And they need to know as they mature, that their father did not do things that deliberately harmed their mother as she continues to suffer from the Disorder.  And they need to be kept out of the triangulation of the interactions of their parents in the Disorder.

Again, if you need to call the police call the police.  If you need to move out move out. If you need to establish boundaries, establish the boundaries that keep you and your kids safe.  :)o whatever you need to do to help your children heal and give them the best chance not to end up in the chaos of Disorder and Addiction.  That is what real responsibility looks like.

They are at extreme risk right now.  I've been in AA/NA recovery for 20 years.  I've seen generations of kids at risk.  Some get through with the help of awareness and recovery, but many don't have a chance because in part they never see real recovery in their family life.

I hope for the best for your response.  I hope you protect you and the children.  I pray you will respond in a manner that best supports your children and provides them the best hope to survive their childhood.  



Only you can decide what is the best response necessary.  You are the "sane" one of the decision makers. Yes, agreed that is what real responsibility looks like.  

And if you have ideas for your responses, share them here for feedback. Share them at your Al Anon meeting.   And ask your sponsor what he thinks of your planned responses.  We are only as sick as our secrets.  Our responses to the Disorder need to not be secrets, because when they are hidden from the world, they are often simply manifestations of the Disorder.

In support.  We do understand.

[mother in law]

If it is not abuse cause it is the illness and not them,  how are they able to turn off the rage when with people they are unfamiliar with and appear relatively normal plus be Masters of deception?  There has to be some level of awareness that their behavior is wrong for them to do this. Painting people black and the lies the that come with it can be very destructive on the recipients emotions, relationships with friends, work colleagues and family members and if that is not abusive what is? I also have a problem with labelling the recipient as a volunteer.  People stay in relationship s for a variety of reasons love,  children,  fear, sometimes just wanting a family.  While it is a mental illness I feel it is most unnecessary to blame the recipient of the abuse to me it is like blaming the rape victim.  

This is not meant to be an anti BPD rant (I have done enough of those) but how do we help those with BPD to change their behaviors if it not recognized for what it is and how do we help the people on the end of that behavior if we'd call them volunteers. They already feel bad enough!

[Skip]

However, in all that -- her Eating Disorder HAD kept her BPD issues largely in check -- as in prior times did Cutting, Alcohol, and some Drug use -- a skilled BPD can use those disorders to sedate their BPD issues.  We can do a review of the recent fMRI Brain Scan studies to verify that... .

Can you share a link or citation regarding this skill.  Are there fMRI brain scans studies that show how pwBPD can sedate their BPD traits by engaging in an bulimia or anorexia?

So much so that the kids and I made a "God Box" of 100 Lies in 100 Days, as sort of a take-off on the required 90 meetings in 90 days.

Somewhere,

You are the man of the house, the patriarch the husband, and the father.   Is this an example of how you are leading your family to a healthier place?  :)oes this seem like painting her black based on the comments above? Is it abuse?  Is this a good thing for kids that are 11, 9, and 6 - making a "God Box" of 100 Lies in 100 Days about mom.

We have members come here occasionally that take a tough love approach to a weaker partner  - they try to pound them into submission. I am aware of many members that have worked and recovered their marriages - but not a single one that did it this way.  To be honest, of the members that have taken this adopted this aggressive tough love mindset (and stayed in touch with us) all ended up in protracted conflict and with a decimated family and personal life.

Do you think it will work differently for you?

We have a board for people to try and regain a positive direction in their family (Staying), we have a Board for failed relationships where members try to recover their wounds. These are very straight forward directions.  However, when a family man chooses the Leaving Board and is staying in the relationship this is typically a man in conflict with his wife and looking for validation of his side of the conflict - triangulation.

This is a family problem, Somewhere, and you need look no further than a six year old stuffing a God Box of 100 Lies in 100 Days to see it. 

You needs a family solution.

It starts with you.

 

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