Documenting Alienation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Are devaluing comments in front of the kids considered alienation? I've kept a daily journal since late Sept. Everyone said this is good, even the lawyer, who said to keep doing it. 95% or more facts, little commentary.

Being out of the r/s, I've stepped back and see a lot of things I just accepted previously. For example, uBPDx made two devaluing comments about me to the cop who was at our house last month. Yes, I was in the room.

The other day, just before she moved out, she did D1's hair in front of me and told our D, "good thing you have a mommy!" In general, even through the physical detachment process, she has always made positive comments about me to the kids. She appreciates me on that level because while she's not a bad mom, she's been neglectful while pursuing her paramour. She even apologized to me one night in Dec for being a "bad mom." I withheld comment. Then she left for three hours. The kids were just put to bed.

While I appreciate this, that she doesn't hate me, but she has a pathological distrust of men, like all the men in her life let her down, or are ultimately failures. I know later she won't be able to help this (I already observed devaluing comments made to S then 3... . as well as a few f bombs thrown his way a few months ago... . I documented them in my journal).

I know I'm not supposed to interrogate the kids about time at mommy's, and I'm glad the draft of the CS had clear language about this, as well as other anti alienation language. I think I have a question here, but really don't know. Their mom is high functioning now, with her paramour, and being suddenly free to not sneak around (though I was aware of everything, even a lot of things she did on our computer... . she left her journals lying around, too), but she is unstable. She constantly has had motivational videos and speeches running on her phone for the last month. She even had one running when she was in the bathroom bathing D1 last week. Brought the kids back from the store and she had one running. Every night on our computer. So unstable! I feel like I'm in a movie and am the only one who sees it.

[Turkish]

Are devaluing comments in front of the kids considered alienation? I've kept a daily journal since late Sept. Everyone said this is good, even the lawyer, who said to keep doing it. 95% or more facts, little commentary.

Being out of the r/s, I've stepped back and see a lot of things I just accepted previously. For example, uBPDx made two devaluing comments about me to the cop who was at our house last month. Yes, I was in the room.

The other day, just before she moved out, she did D1's hair in front of me and told our D, "good thing you have a mommy!" In general, even through the physical detachment process, she has always made positive comments about me to the kids. She appreciates me on that level because while she's not a bad mom, she's been neglectful while pursuing her paramour. She even apologized to me one night in Dec for being a "bad mom." I withheld comment. Then she left for three hours. The kids were just put to bed.

While I appreciate this, that she doesn't hate me, but she has a pathological distrust of men, like all the men in her life let her down, or are ultimately failures. I know later she won't be able to help this (I already observed devaluing comments made to S then 3... . as well as a few f bombs thrown his way a few months ago... . I documented them in my journal).

I know I'm not supposed to interrogate the kids about time at mommy's, and I'm glad the draft of the CS had clear language about this, as well as other anti alienation language. I think I have a question here, but really don't know. Their mom is high functioning now, with her paramour, and being suddenly free to not sneak around (though I was aware of everything, even a lot of things she did on our computer... . she left her journals lying around, too), but she is unstable. She constantly has had motivational videos and speeches running on her phone for the last month. She even had one running when she was in the bathroom bathing D1 last week. Brought the kids back from the store and she had one running. Every night on our computer. So unstable! I feel like I'm in a movie and am the only one who sees it.

[thisyoungdad]

From my understanding of what parental alienation is, then yes devaluing comments would count. My ex for instance would (still does maybe/probably I am just not around to witness it) set me up and make comments to our daughter, not even in front of her but directly to her, about things like "I guess daddy was too busy to come to the park tonight" when in reality I was not ever invited to start with. Little seeds like that which were planted in her small little mind to question things about me and who I am, my reliability etc. My ex allows others to make the comments for her, like her mom who has no shame is making comments like "women don't need men" or "moms are better caretakers because they are women" or other things implying I am incapable or lacking somehow... . because she will actually insert my ex's name and my name.

My ex is the same as yours, not necessarily a bad mom but certainly has been at times very neglectful in her selfish pursuits. She is rather high functioning as well although goes through cycles of hating me and then we are just entering into the other side of a cycle where she is being friendly and more open. From the outside though she is very smart and always reading "self help" books, going to meditations etc. However get to know her much and one sees she is unstable, going from place to place and never actually making any progress what so ever or motivational stuff etc. All to put on the ruse that she is doing self growth. In reality though she is not because she is too unstable. That instability I believe leads to parental alienation even in very subtle ways.

I don't interrogate my daughter, I just ask how her time was with mom, what did they do, etc and then she will answer and if it is super vague I may ask her more about it or say "tell me more about your time at/with/doing... . " and she will often just open up. I know even if her mom is not saying it directly she allows or puts my daughter in situations with a couple other unstable people who are known to talk that way about other people with me being their current target. So she hears it directly or indirectly. I have noticed the more effort I put into my relationship with her though the more she seems to be able to know who I am, not what people say because of what she is experiencing with me or that is how it seems. She actually seems more secure in our relationship despite what I know she is hearing. Not sure if any of that is helpful or just me rambling.

[Matt]

Consider finding a counselor for the kids, so they have a resource - someone they can talk to.

Don't think of the counselor as a weapon in your battle with their mom.  Just think of her as someone who can be helpful to the kids long-term.

If their mom is making negative statements about you, that may come out in counseling.  The counselor may or may not be able to testify, but in any case, the kids will have someone to talk with about it.  You can tell the counselor, "There is a lot of stress between their mom and me, and I don't know what she is telling them - they may be hearing stuff they shouldn't."  Then leave it at that and let the counselor do her job.

[Peaceful.]

What format is more useful though, if you need a dossier of documented evidence that can be used in court about alienating statements (or, for that matter, any other breach in a parenting agreement).

Is it really a personal journal? Or emails, over time, to an attorney? I'm speaking as if a counselor is not involved. It seems like emails would be better. A journal seems to mark you as someone with a grudge, while emails are more about letting an outside authority know, making it public.

ForeverDad?

[Turkish]

What format is more useful though, if you need a dossier of documented evidence that can be used in court about alienating statements (or, for that matter, any other breach in a parenting agreement).

Is it really a personal journal? Or emails, over time, to an attorney? I'm speaking as if a counselor is not involved. It seems like emails would be better. A journal seems to mark you as someone with a grudge, while emails are more about letting an outside authority know, making it public.

ForeverDad?

I was told this by multiple professionals. I do see what you are saying, however, which is why my editorializing is all but non existent. I document each day, no matter how banal. Approximate times, conversations if relevant. When she was there and not. When i took care of the kids, when she did. Things she said to the kids that i deemed harmful (such as throwing the f bomb towards s3 in november a couple of times, the dysregulation/depressive episodes).

I also documented her journals she left lying around... . and obviously left for me after she moved out. These, my L told me, are not admissable, but they are just more evidence for me of a disordered mind.

I hope it never gets to this point. She was lecturing me tonight on their behaviors and how it will go. I said yes, I have been educating myself on it. Object constancy. She wasn't familiar with it, so I explained it in brief and suggested she look it, up. If she digs too deeply, she may find herself... . she self diagnosed herself a few months ago as having some type of attachment disorder (by the brwser history on the pc, this was her mirroring her paramour to attach, but she is close). I witheld comment when she told me that.