I hope this isn't a dumb question

[Moonie75]

I've read & read on BPD. I've been a participant on these boards for almost a year (on & off). I've read other info from other sources on the web.

But there's something I still don't feel I'm sure about... .

All this hurt & pain that people suffering from BPD feel, the intensity of it. The absolute terifying fear of being alone because no attachment leaves them with no identity etc.

Is it subconscious & they themselves don't understand why they behave how they do, or are they absolutely conscious of it & just never admit it?

If I'm being a dumb ass I'm sorry. Would just like to know.

Moonie.

[seeking balance]

Is it subconscious & they themselves don't understand why they behave how they do, or are they absolutely conscious of it & just never admit it?

YES - it is both

Not a dumb question at all.

Have you read the phrase, "BPD exists just to deny itself"? 

In calm/non-triggered, many pwBPD know something isn't quite right - but the maladaptive coping (projections, dissociating, etc) literally protects them from having to feel or deal with it.

Have you read the book The Buddha and the Borderline?  It puts real life context to the disorder.

It is a true story of a woman who fought the system to get the treatment she needed - it gives a good representation of the journey from someone who really and truly wants to get better.

[Mutt]

All this hurt & pain that people suffering from BPD feel, the intensity of it. The absolute terifying fear of being alone because no attachment leaves them with no identity etc.

are they absolutely conscious of it & just never admit it?

If I were in that much pain and conscious of it. I would want to seek help.

They sense that there is something off inside. They seek help if they can't continue with what they are doing and nothing is working anymore and that's when they get help.

[Moonie75]

Ok, when they're projecting their affairs, dishonesty etc on to us, do they know that they are projecting their views of themselves, or do they actually believe we are the person they're calling us?


No I haven't read the buddha and the borderline. But have heard of it many times.

[coastalfog1]

All this hurt & pain that people suffering from BPD feel, the intensity of it. The absolute terifying fear of being alone because no attachment leaves them with no identity etc.

Is it subconscious & they themselves don't understand why they behave how they do, or are they absolutely conscious of it & just never admit it?

In one of her rare moments of truth and candor, mine admitted to being painfully lonely. Saying everyone leaves her eventually. In that one second I felt truly heartbroken for her. I think deep down she knows "something" is wrong but she is incapable of admitting it to herself or anyone else. She would rather hurt those around her than fix whats inside.

[seeking balance]

Ok, when they're projecting their affairs, dishonesty etc on to us, do they know that they are projecting their views of themselves, or do they actually believe we are the person they're calling us?

it's not a "one size fits all answer" - some honestly do believe it depending on their triggered state.  When someone disassociates, they really do not remember what they say or do.

Maybe you are at a point where reading some other material would help you understand if that is what you are still struggling with.  Marsha Linehan or DBT info can help you understand the disorder from a clinical perspective if that is what you need to help you detach.

[MrFox]

It's not a dumb question at all.  It's one I struggle with as well.

My exBPDgf never told me, but she was diagnosed with BPD when she was 20.  She has been in therapy for it at one point in her life.  The only reason I know this is because I came across an old blog she had when she was married.  I'm not sure she even knows it still exists.

What I struggle with is the fact that she knows that she has it.  She has been in therapy for it.  In her blog she discussed how she was reading and researching about it.  Yet, she no longer tells anyone she has it and continues to behave in typical BPD fashion.

So, I would say that it is both.  She knows she has it but her defense mechanisms over-ride everything else.

[seeking balance]

She would rather hurt those around her than fix whats inside.

This is your experience, and painful I know, not necessarily true of all pwBPD.  

Moonie - if this is a clinical exercise in truly understanding the disorder - Linehan, DBT, clinical based articles on the boards here... . perhaps even put this question on the questions board and not the leaving board if you are looking for some facts.  Is this the motive of the post?

[Moonie75]

Thank you SB, I'll look in to this.

I think I'm stuck in not quite knowing if she 'knows' what she's done, and/or why she does it.

She did once tell me the following things in a very emotional but lucid conversation... .

Told me "You've never loved anybody, not properly". I replied by calmly telling her she was talking about herself. She looked down at the floor & didn't argue the point any further.

Other statements from that conversation... .

"I don't believe anybody loves me"

"You can't trust anybody because they will just let you down or hurt you"

THE BIG ONE! "I don't feel guilt. Sometimes if I try hard enough I think I feel it a bit"

I know the relationship was detrimental to me health & emotional well being. I believe she will most likely always be disordered because she just can't seem to face a lot of what she does/has done. On the rare occasions that she's cornered she may admit wrongs, but then she's gone & into someone who hasn't seen the wizard behind the curtain yet. I guess that's easier than facing yourself?

I just feel detaching might be easier if I have less questions left unanswered. I generally get very frustrated with anything I don't understand & have to 'get it' before I can relax. I can't settle for unknowns very easily. So you won't be surprised that this BPD caper is doing my inquisitive mind right in!

[Moonie75]

She would rather hurt those around her than fix whats inside.

This is your experience, and painful I know, not necessarily true of all pwBPD.  

Moonie - if this is a clinical exercise in truly understanding the disorder - Linehan, DBT, clinical based articles on the boards here... . perhaps even put this question on the questions board and not the leaving board if you are looking for some facts.  Is this the motive of the post?

I'm not sure what the motive is if I'm honest. I think i just thought feeling I'd got an answer to this question would help me detach. Some may not be bothered about it, but it bothers me.

[blissful_camper]

My ex initially made excuses, and then admitted to knowing what he was doing.  It's easier for him to continue looking for someone who will tolerate his behavior long term, then to get into therapy.

[mywifecrazy]

I think many know that something is wrong with them but don't necessarily know its BPD or at least don't want to admit it.

My uBPDxw once told me when I suggested going to marriage counseling that she didn't want to go because I would find out just how F***ed up she really was... . HER WORDS! Another time when we were arguing while going through our divorce she got so mad that she was screaming at me in a wild animal like rage... . She kept screaming " I know, I know, I'm F***ed Up" "I need to be sexually desired and I think that's love but I know it's not love". She actually scared me when screaming in this voice. Another time she told me that she feels so empty inside like she doesn't have a personality or doesn't know who she is. I feel sorry for her but then reality hits me and I'm reminded of all the horrible things she's done to me and our sons and I stop feeling sorry for her. Besides that's what they want you to feel, sorry for them. That's when they have you where they want you so they can manipulate again. I see it with her time and time again!

[myself]

I think I'm stuck in not quite knowing if she 'knows' what she's done, and/or why she does it.

She probably knows what she's done, but can't face why she's done it.

[winston72]

Did you ever ask her?  What is your assessment of her in this regard?  

As SB noted, seeking a specific answer about an individual while drawing from general principles probably won't answer your question.  

You seem to frame the answer when you wrote, "On the rare occasions that she's cornered she may admit wrongs, but then she's gone & into someone who hasn't seen the wizard behind the curtain yet."  That seems to describe that she is capable of understanding her behavior and its consequences, but perhaps lacks a sense of remorse or the empathy that would energize the remorse.  While this might be pathological in someone, it can also be a sense of futility that acknowledging such behavior would lead to anything positive.  If it will generate a sense of shame within themselves and rejection from the other party, than someone is not likely to embrace their failings.  

What are your observations of your ex?

[Moonie75]

Winston,

In a nutshell, I'd describe her as high functioning 'queen' BPD. She's never been diagnosed, that's just my own conclusion. Fits all the criteria except for the self harming/mutilating stuff.

When she's wanting to win me over she admits to all the behaviors on the criteria (you have to go careful though and can only extract admittance to one or two in any single conversation). She acknowledges that she has problems, behaves inappropriately around men, needs their validation etc. Also admits that she has problems trusting people especially partners. She admits to things she's done being incredibly hurtful me or destructive to the relationship etc.

She even admitted that she often projects her indiscretions on to me, and that's how I seem so good at second guessing her. (I told her she actually tells me what she's doing when she accuses me of those very things).

And when she's admitting she sees these flaws she says she wants to change them & get a grip on herself. She's incredibly sorry & apologetic.

My problem is... . Once she's achieved her objective (historically a recycle, but sometimes happened during on periods of relationship), all those admissions go right out the window. And often times in her view it's me that exhibits these issues according to her.

It leaves me not knowing if she genuinely sees it & agrees or not. Was she just humoring me when I presented her with her behavior, in order to achieve an objective, while not actually agreeing?

Or does she genuinely see these flaws and realize they're as serious as she says she does, then reject it all with denial & run when she's going to be accountable. Does she run because she's been 'rumbled' & shamed?

Basically I'm left not knowing if she genuinely sees, or not?

P.S She's never admitted feeling any intense pain or needing an attachment!

[seeking balance]

I just feel detaching might be easier if I have less questions left unanswered. I generally get very frustrated with anything I don't understand & have to 'get it' before I can relax. I can't settle for unknowns very easily. So you won't be surprised that this BPD caper is doing my inquisitive mind right in!

Honestly, I can appreciate this completely - it was this honest need to understand that I dug very deep, probably more than most into the disorder itself.  My neighbor who is trained in dbt has joked that I "was not the norm" in this in my quest for knowledge.

So, start with Marsha Linehan and focus on her, the facts, dbt.  Don't get sucked into pop psychology easy answers that demonize the pwBPD.

If you need to know - you will have to do the homework from a place of accepting the facts as they are ... . once the facts are accepted the patterns of behavior are actually rather predictable.

[winston72]

I just saw SB's post... . I will send mine anyway!  I think he recommends what I am trying to do here, which is to just observe her behavior and proceed from there... . gathering the "facts."

Moonie,

Thank you for your candid and thorough description in your post.  It has helped me to think through some things in my own relationship... . as is always the case on this site!  I had some very similar dynamics in my relationship, and I will share a bit about it later.

Just from the description of your interaction with her, one would say that she understands and comprehends what you are trying to communicate to her about her own behavior.  From your post, she is not initiating these observations about herself, but she is acknowledging them as you raise them with her.  Is this fair to say?  I think this is what you are describing.  So, does she "get it"?  :)oes she know that she projects things on to you that are not yours?  Yes.  :)oes she understand when you explain to her how she has hurt you?  Yes.  Is she sorry and apologetic?  Yes.  You have stated these things.  It seems to be your experience that she understands.  I don't think there is any reason to doubt that she comprehends it all.  If she was rejecting it in that moment, or not understanding it at all and disputing it with you, I think you would be saying that.  So, yes... . she understands, gets it.  Your conversations will probably haunt her conscience in the future.  She will likely remember them... . and have an awareness and sense of shame for what she did.

Now, also in your message you describe her as not altering her behavior as a result of her awareness.  She can acknowledge that these things should be different, that she needs to change to stay in relationship with you, but she not only does not change but she does not take steps to try to change... . therapy or whatever else might be helpful to her.  So, in your time with her she would continue to act the same way even though she admitted to all of these things.  

So, they co-exist.  She is aware if the issues are pointed out to her, and she does not take steps to change.  I think you can conclude this just from observation.  It is what you wrote in your post.  You don't need to be a psychiatrist to affirm these realities.  Is she falsely admitting to be aware?  Is she faking her sorrow?  I don't think you need to over analyze her intentions in this regard.  Is she agreeing with you just to manipulate you in order to maintain her connection with you?  Maybe.  But, isn't that often a motivation for healthy people to see things differently... . for one to say they are sorry in order to maintain a connection?  

But, given all of this, what does it mean?  At a minimum, again just reading your post, one would say that having acknowledged her behaviors and their consequences, she elects to ignore their effects on you and continue to live as she always has.  I think we hope that if someone fully realizes what the truth about themselves that they will be motivated to change.  It just isn't the way it happens.  

I think my commentary could apply to someone who is disordered or not... . it doesn't require a diagnosis.  It does describe someone who would not be suited to an intimate relationship.  Or, maybe if you ask what happens within the person between the moment of realization and the reaction to that realization.  Clearly in this case the realization does not lead to the same personal adjustments that you might seek to make.

Oh, man... . this got too long!  Away it goes!

[winston72]

I am going to give a quick synopsis of two different people in my life.  One romantic partner introduced me to BPD in 2006.  She gave me the book, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and told me that her therapist had given this book to her family and that she suffered from it.  She was beautiful, bright, competent, had an eating disorder and would occasionally binge drink.  I, of course, thought I could handle it and kept going!  We broke up over an incident with alcohol.  It was not terribly destructive to me and we went our separate ways.  We communicated intermittently since then... . I asked her how she was doing with the BPD.  She said that nothing had changed.  She had tried DBT.  It made some improvement but she did not have hope that she could really change.  I asked her about her relationships with men.  She said that when things got too bad she just moved on to the next guy who did not understand what was happening with her. 

Now, I don't know why she and I did not get more enmeshed.  The break up was hard, but in the "normal" range for me.  It was not a huge deal.  It might have set me up to think that I could handle someone with similar issues, even though undiagnosed.

With regards to the relationship that drove me to this site, I was head over heals for her and failed to make any kind of honest assessment of her and our relationship.  I ran gleefully off the cliff!  Perhaps six months after the final break up, and it was a horrendous, debilitating break up, I had an exchange of emails with her.  I was intent on understanding some things that went on between us... . finding the facts so I could face them.  She had lied to me rather elaborately by conducting relationship with another man for the first year of our relationship.  I had never been willing or able to confront it all.  So, I asked her a list of direct, succinct questions.  She answered them for me.  Now, I think she answered them because I told her I would just ask him if she didn't.  She has a relationship with him still, but he does not know about me.  Ugly.  So, she said she was doing it to help me, but I think she is too cunning for that to be a primary motivation.  Anyway, she admitted to the most awful wrongdoing and lying.  She seemed to be very sorry.  I think she felt awful about the way she behaved and how she hurt me.  She acknowledged how damaged she is and how she should not be in a relationship with anyone... . how she lies to everyone and how much it messes with her well being.  And, she says it is the best way for her to make it in life... . and that if I told this other guy about us that it would "ruin her life." 

I would say that, like your ex, she understands everything... . but that such understanding does not translate into a full comprehension that would lead to a changed life.  She consciously thinks that manipulating men is a viable strategy for making her way in the world.  She is mad that she "blew it" with me... . meaning that she messed up because she could have "had me."  It is all terribly transactional.  Nowhere in the equation is love, empathy, sympathy, connection, openness, remorse... . none of the emotions that would generate a personal connection that could be a motivator for change.

She told me after this exchange that she was glad she "came clean."  I understood that... . until I thought more about it.  She did not come clean at all!  When confronted, she admitted but only to the minimum.  When I explained to her how it hurt me and asked her if she understood, she did.  But, she never volunteered anything to me... . she did not reflect on what it all meant to her, the drivers that put her into that place... . there was very little comprehensive awareness.  I am not finding the right words, but there was no depth of personality in it all... . it was helpful to me to see it all in this light.  It was a full expression of the personality she brought into the relationship itself... . and I could se how she had the facade of compassion and caring, but just did not have the substance of it.

[Moonie75]

Thank you Winston I found your replies fascinating. And yes I saw a lot of similarity between my ex & the woman you had the email question/answer session with. I'm sorry you went through this too my friend.

I'll read up like SB suggested, and your replies have helped me greatly too.

[NyGirl8]

Great posts, great information.  I think one day in the future I may seek these answers.  Right now I need the anger and I fear the information would take that away.  Take it away and make me soft again... . wanting to recue and help again.  I need the anger right now... .