A Few Things Are Stopping Me From Moving On

[Glef]

Hey everyone, I want to start of by saying this board has been extremely helpful. I felt pretty good the past bit but today sent me back, just reading a few things.

To start off, my earlier thread explains the situation: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220799.0

I'm embarrassed that I need to asks things like this, but I figure if anyone can understand the torture, it is people on this forum. There are a few issues, stopping me from moving on.

1. Despite how I was lied to and used - I'm scared maybe she thinks I ended things. Before learning much about BPD, I said she needed to call explain this all or I can't do this anymore. She seemed to miss the point and repeats how she needs time but I'm not giving her that. I potentially was, I just needed answers on why it was necessary. I said sorry but that's my final choice to which I got "K. Hope your happy with your choice.". I said "You know my feelings. Make the call or not. I was respectfully letting you know."

She hasnt spoke to me - and she now goes clubbing (which is new), dressing provocatively, drinking so I figured she moved on in the blink of an eye, and that I called her bluffs on actually caring. Now I'm wondering if she thought I meant I was done. It's stupid because I clearly cant be with her but I cant stand that she possibly thinks I ended things.

Is that stupid? What has happened here that I'm ignored?

2. It scares me when I see posts on here about being in a BPD Relationship for years or even being married. Mine was so short lived, and from what I learn about the illness, I dont see how they stay with someone that long. You get close - they run. But apparently before me there was an abusive ex that lasted almost a year and I fear the day I see her happy with someone for longer, or even engaged - which I also see stories of.

I feel worthless knowing compared to a scumbag, I got so little.

My question is how does that happen? Are they trying to hurt their exs? Or are they trying to desperately create something "normal", something they think they are supposed to be doing, like anyone else? Do they get engaged cause they think they have to - meanwhile they are still conflicted on the inside?

3. Is there a real self? I know they struggle with their sense of self but how can there be no constant?

If she is home with her parents, and sister, is that just another mask? If shes alone in her room, who is she then?

I knew a different girl then her one friend does. I knew a sweet girl, who was kind, didnt party, didnt wear much make up and would "probably get married in jeans". Her friend knows a woman who drinks, smokes pot, dresses almost like a prostitute and goes to clubs weekly or more.

Did I give up on a sweet woman who just needed someone to care? Or was I just fooled?

4. How does one just go on, without answers on this? With such little closure?

How can I stop going over this stuff in my mind. I never used to be like this - I feel pathetic when I wake up feeling miserable about a woman who treated me like garbage, and is out having a grand old time, probably ensnaring many new victims.

[day2day]

Glef, my friend... . very thought-provoking post.

Have you ever seen "A Few Good Men?"

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

In my opinion, BPDs are eternally running from awful truths about their lives they can't confront. Often they target a "nice guy" because it's a great fantasy to have an attentive knight in shining armor who will not only put up with their $#it but will treat them like a princess. It's a great temporary Band-Aid on a festering wound. The problem is, they're so good at hooking nice guys that as time goes on, the typical nice guy may actually develop a strong and real commitment. Part of that may be that they see themselves as rescuers, but I think a combination of the effects of mirroring, physical beauty and proclivity for wild, frequent sex simply makes the guy almost irreversibly feel he's found someone better than he could imagine in his greatest dreams.

Eventually, as we well know, the seducer becomes the clinger and then the hater. Their inability to grow and sustain a healthy, loving relationship betrays them. Along this time line some guys... . if they're smart... . may bail out, but many of them will see the "investment" they've made as worth fighting for and they redouble their efforts to love, help, and understand. This is, of course, self-defeating because the borderline cannot stand to have you get too close. They must guard their psychic turf at all costs. When the minuses of having you around any longer outweigh the pluses in their twisted minds, you get discarded, particularly if they already have their next temporary fix lined up... . which they frequently do.

Would someone capable of genuine love treat a caring gentleman this way? That's a rhetorical question, don't you think? They can't love you because they can't love themselves. They are emotionally stunted, like a sad and lonely child trapped inside a physically and intellectually more normally developed adult. They don't know who they are or what they want. They develop a trick bag full of survival skills, allowing them to stave off that debilitating loneliness and emptiness that gnaws at them from within by laying waste to one relationship after another in a quest to numb their pain.

What, you ask, are the masks? I think everything they present to the world is to some degree a mask. They often know how to be charming, polite, fun, efficient at work, civic-minded, responsible adults when it behooves them. But I don't think that's any more the "real" them than the clinging, scowling, raging, lying, cheating, manipulating, relationship-wrecking manifestation of themselves that has driven us to this board.

I too have noticed that it's possible they'll stay with a "scumbag" longer than with a caring, loving partner, and I've given that a lot of thought. It's hard to accept such a reality, is it not? Part of it may be that from their twisted perspective, they think that's about all they deserve. Maybe an abusive partner strikes them as almost comfortingly familiar, harkening back to a neglective or abusive childhood. I suspect a large piece of it is also that a "scumbag" asks very little of a partner emotionally. The inner sanctum of the BPD is kept relatively safe. How can a man engulf you or abandon you if he is emotionally callous to begin with?

As far as should you beat yourself up wondering if you're to blame for the split, my response would be don't give it another thought. By bringing the situation to a head, you just made perhaps the wisest decision of your life. You took control like the good and rational man you obviously are. Your instincts were correct. The rest of your consciousness may not realize that fully just yet, but my goodness, Glef, crack open a cold one and celebrate the fact that you euthanized a terminally bad relationship. You did everything you could to save it... . heroic means, you might say... . but ultimately, it had to put out of its misery.

This girl is no longer your problem. Man, did you just dodge a bullet!



sychiatrist

[Glef]

Wow. First off, thank you for your extensive and insightful reply!

It's disturbing to think what I thought was a rare connection, and special was just a "temporary band-aid". Between her mirroring (sharing values) and idealization (making me feel special), I truly did feel that sense of "Greatest dream" you describe.

Because I didn't know about BPD, I thought she was this amazing person who had just been hurt too much. I thought "Who could have treated such a woman this way. How lucky I am to have found her. I can't wait to show her what being with someone who cares is like!"

I can't comprehend that they want these relationships but destroy them within months or sooner. She still seemed distraught over this abusive ex. Would that not be genuine feelings then? Or is it more that she has now been treated like they have treated others? Do they enjoy chasing more than catching, so to speak?

I feel like the abusive ones would trigger the abandonment fear more, than someone like I that showed commitment. This part of the disorder, and my experience is what I can't quite grasp.

With the masks, would you then say there is no core self? I try to imagine her alone in her room. What does she think about or want in life when she is alone and unmasked? Who is the unmasked girl, and is it close to what I wanted or something else?

Thank you for the kind reinforcement! Between this and a young mans career struggles, this has been the first time in years I have questioned my self worth. Before these sites and speaking to people like you, I felt I must be garbage since a younger, abused woman would toss me like a half eaten sandwich, and it has left me feeling ashamed, humiliated and depressed. I know I did everything I could, and tried to support her and make her happy. She and her family know my brothers recent wife and family - and I fear what has been said about me.

I wish she could just acknowledge what she did was hurtful.

Thank you for letting me know I can be proud at the end of the day of my efforts.

I value relationships and spend long periods of time single while I look for something "special". As that kind of romantic - I really could not have done worse. What are the odds eh?

Cheers!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Glef, we've all been there, my friend, so don't beat yourself up.  Why would you have known about BPD?  I certainly didn't and doubt many others here knew from the get-go.  We're all learning on the fly, so you're in good company.  Concerning the push me/pull you aspect of a BPD r/s, I regard it as one of the paradoxes of the disorder.  A pwBPD fears abandonment but will push you away hard.  They want love, but behave in an unloving fashion.  I could to on and on about the paradoxes, but you get the idea.  Lucky Jim

[woodsposse]

Oh there is so much I could reply with which could help... . but I'm sure you will find almost all of our stories the same - so instead I would like to offer this instead.

Regardless if your relationship was a year, 5 years, 10 years or longer - the break up and pain is the exact same.

Trust me... . they will not be happier with anyone else.  The pattern will start over and continue (until or unless they get help).

Them going out clubbing and stuff... . classic.  Happens all the time.  (don't take it personally).

Lastly, and this is the most important part - don't take it personally.  It has nothing to do with you.  I mean, of course - you were there and they hurt you, ignored you, invalidated you, painted you black, etc - but TRUST ME... . if it wasn't you, it will be the next person and the next and the next.

They are not their disorder either.  They are human and have choices. 

We played a part in it as well.  I would suggest trying to defocus on them and on the relationship (as a whole) and figure out your part in it... . how you allowed yourself to get caught up in it - figure out what you need to do to heal and what made it "easy" for you to allow the abuse... . so WHEN you find a healthy person to be with, you are better prepared to be in that healthy relationship.

It won't be easy - but as a Non... . we can look at ourself, our behavior, our flaws and try to come to terms with them... . get hold of them... . and correct them.

We put a lot of work into either fixing the relationship, or wanting to help "fix" them.  What on earth are and can you do if you put that energy into fixing you?

[woodsposse]

Hey Glef, we've all been there, my friend, so don't beat yourself up.  Why would you have known about BPD?  I certainly didn't and doubt many others here knew from the get-go.  We're all learning on the fly, so you're in good company.  Concerning the push me/pull you aspect of a BPD r/s, I regard it as one of the paradoxes of the disorder.  A pwBPD fears abandonment but will push you away hard.  They want love, but behave in an unloving fashion.  I could to on and on about the paradoxes, but you get the idea.  Lucky Jim

I have to agree.  Many of many of many of times I said that exact same thing to my ex.  I would say "You push people away and then get mad at them when they are away... . which makes you want to go away."

It seems very paradoxical - and it is.

No real solution outside of learning better ways of living with and supporting a loved one with the disorder.

Me?

I'd rather eat glass from now on than be in any relationship with anyone with a diagnosis.  I'm a loving caring man... . but right now - I don't have what it would take to be in another relationship with ANYONE with anything close to a diagnosis.

I'm not bitter... . I'm petrified to be alone in a room with someone with the disorder.  I have lived entirely too long around it knowing something wasn't right but just couldn't put my finger on it.  Now that I know - yeah, it's too late to "save" my first relationship, or second, or third... . or even my FOO relationship.  But I can go forward gently and make as sure as I can that there will not be a fourth.

Because the only commonality in all of these relationships was ... . I was abused (and voluntarily stayed for the ride... . well, outside of my growing up years with my mom, who I didn't know until last week had been diagnosed 30 years ago)

[day2day]

Hi Glef, me back on here again.

Your questions are so thought-provoking. I'm going to take a crack at a couple of them. I'd appreciate your feedback.

I think the real self exists, but it's buried under all the masks. I can't imagine waging a lifetime battle to avoid the pain of letting that repressed inner self out into the light of day. I'd like to refer to to an excellent article by Dr. Paul J. Hannig called "BPD: Profile and Process of Therapy." It's lengthy and  challenging and parts of it deal mainly with how a therapist approaches a client with BPD, but it really offers insight regarding the inner turmoil. Please look for it!

I also would like to suggest that you may get more insight regarding a BPD's paradoxical behavior if you focus back on these two words: CONTROL and DRAMA.

Perhaps the early stages of the r/s are largely DRAMA-driven... . the idealization, the mirroring... . as the first steps in a process of trying to attain some satisfying Holy Grail of CONTROL. As long as the DRAMA is unresolved, it's game on for them. In many cases, their early lives were chaotic, so chaos is extremely familiar territory for them. Maybe, just maybe, this time around they can navigate through the chaos and gain CONTROL.

If that makes you feel like a means to an end and not much more, I would say you've been paying attention.

Suppose you fall hook, line, and sinker and fall deeply in love with the BPD. That makes her uncomfortable. She doesn't comprehend what real love is, so how can she possibly return it? She feels engulfed, she's losing CONTROL, and she begins to look elsewhere. This particular DRAMA ended unsuccessfully, so it's on to the next! Meanwhile, you're left wondering what you could have done better!

The other side of this coin is the fear of abandonment, of being alone. So the chance of being charmed back if things don't work out with the new host is very real.

Somewhere in the midst of all this are serious trust issues. They've been programmed from early on to believe that inevitably, people will leave you and it's probably your fault! So even if you're a rock steady boyfriend, guess what? You arouse fears of abandonment as you try to get close!

So much so they they may leave you abruptly when this fear reaches a critical mass, so you can't leave them! CONTROL!

Ask yourself,... . are you looking for a relationship with your two ultimate goals being DRAMA and CONTROL? No? See how different you are?

Factor in the possibility that every time a r/s fails, little droplets of guilt, shame, and regret trickle down somehow through those masks, adding to the already unbearable burden of the sad and lonely inner child. I'm out of my depth here, but I intuitively believe this to true.

I've learned that therapy for BPD attempts to remove the false self masks and let the inner child, who is a good person, begin the painful process of healing. By all accounts this is extremely difficult work.

They're fascinating creatures, don't you think?

I feel terribly for them, and worse for those they nearly destroy.

[Glef]

You all rock!

I think the real self exists, but it's buried under all the masks. I can't imagine waging a lifetime battle to avoid the pain of letting that repressed inner self out into the light of day.

That would kill me. What if they are pressured in to situations that the real self is against? Do they do it no matter what, for the sake of the mask? Is there ever something they will reject no matter what.

Despite me being against drug use, she did not hide her drug habit but claimed she would never do and never has done any other drug. Now mirroring another would she then do it?

Suppose you fall hook, line, and sinker and fall deeply in love with the BPD. That makes her uncomfortable. She doesn't comprehend what real love is, so how can she possibly return it? She feels engulfed, she's losing CONTROL, and she begins to look elsewhere. This particular DRAMA ended unsuccessfully, so it's on to the next! Meanwhile, you're left wondering what you could have done better!

I can see this in my experience completely. It's such an odd thing, since back when just a first date was on the table, I was the one being told I was the best man shes ever known, and other amazing things. Her words and adoration made me, happy and more open - leading her to feel engulfed faster. You think if they feared that, they would withhold affection.

We kissed the day we met as we stayed up all night talking - very unusual for me as I dont even kiss after a first date but she felt special and I felt a connection. She told me of a past rape, and remember wondering how a victim of that could show physical affection that quickly. I figured she felt I was special too, that she felt safe. Later I ofcourse learned that's a trait of BPD, and I was no more special than anyone before or after.

The other side of this coin is the fear of abandonment, of being alone. So the chance of being charmed back if things don't work out with the new host is very real.

I'm torn over this. I want to hear from her, and I also don't. I think I want to hear from her more from missing her voice, and perhaps my wounded pride. I don't want to, cause I'm scared what I may fall for despite what I know now. That said, I read they can get over you in just a week or two - that time is half what it is to you. Would my current distance from her, stop her from reconnecting? Even though it was temporary, she brought it up near the end as being hard. It really wasnt an issue for me, we only saw so little of one another when she began canceling time together and making excuses. I wondered if that was just a lie to herself.

Somewhere in the midst of all this are serious trust issues. They've been programmed from early on to believe that inevitably, people will leave you and it's probably your fault! So even if you're a rock steady boyfriend, guess what? You arouse fears of abandonment as you try to get close!

So much so they they may leave you abruptly when this fear reaches a critical mass, so you can't leave them! CONTROL!

This may be why I found myself in a sort of limbo with her. I did no wrong - I only supported her, and there was no may to paint me black. Not until I said she needs to call me and explain or I can't do this anymore. That was probably all she needed to justify hating me, or not feeling bad. I met her parents, caught her in a lie, and watched her breakdown - I think I saw too much for her.

I wish she could know I would never have abandoned her over a mental illness. It was only when she showed she may not care about me, that I knew I may have to leave.

Factor in the possibility that every time a r/s fails, little droplets of guilt, shame, and regret trickle down somehow through those masks, adding to the already unbearable burden of the sad and lonely inner child.

Scary thought. I wonder what happens when that weight becomes too heavy... .

It truly is a fascinating condition - though one I find disturbing. I wish I didn't see such a perfect woman there. I truly hope I can let that go someday.

Thank you for this information!

[Glef]

Hey Glef, we've all been there, my friend, so don't beat yourself up.  Why would you have known about BPD?  I certainly didn't and doubt many others here knew from the get-go.  We're all learning on the fly, so you're in good company.  Concerning the push me/pull you aspect of a BPD r/s, I regard it as one of the paradoxes of the disorder.  A pwBPD fears abandonment but will push you away hard.  They want love, but behave in an unloving fashion.  I could to on and on about the paradoxes, but you get the idea.  Lucky Jim

Thanks Jim. I always was good at getting in to a persons head space and see their eyes, but with this... . I just can't. I'm definitely glad to have found this site and people to talk to. My friends can't fully understand it.

Trust me... . they will not be happier with anyone else.  The pattern will start over and continue (until or unless they get help).

Them going out clubbing and stuff... . classic.  Happens all the time.  (don't take it personally).

I guess they are good at appearing happy to the world huh? Especially through social media.

The clubbing wasn't going on before me, so I feel like I sent her spiraling in to that. Though I guess her social gatherings before at houses could have been much worse for all I know.

Lastly, and this is the most important part - don't take it personally.  It has nothing to do with you.  I mean, of course - you were there and they hurt you, ignored you, invalidated you, painted you black, etc - but TRUST ME... . if it wasn't you, it will be the next person and the next and the next.

They are not their disorder either.  They are human and have choices. 

Thank you. I try not to, but I find I flip-flop most days on how I feel and sometimes have to run here hoping to gain perspective. It was hard trying to differentiate between whats the illness, and what's just being a bad person. Before I even knew of BPD, I began to see something was wrong, and ended up spending long periods of time barely talking, and wondering if I was being supportive or played the fool. Now that I've learned about it, I found I've been contributing everything to it - when there does have to be some human element at play here. I just wish I knew what was real and what wasn't.

[day2day]

The question of what's real comes up often on here. I think it's all real in the sense that it all happened. Was it sincere? Maybe from this standpoint: she was sincerely (as she would interpret the word) trying to meet her needs of the moment and she used her extensive set of survival tools toward that end. But a good relationship isn't all about one person at the expense of another.

SUSTAINABLE is a key word here. They don't have the wherewithall to sustain a loving relationship. Remember, they lack the ability to love themselves. They can no more go through a r/s without inevitably being triggered to split you black than you could walk blindfolded through a pride of lions after being coated with meat sauce.

Just think about it. Play it over and over. Lies. Deceptions. Cheating. Drama. Bad moods. Sad moods. Projecting. Splitting. Hurting you. Just dumping you. Giving you no closure.

This is a person who promised you the moon and the stars, who idolized you, who called you her soul mate and her rock.

What could you possibly have done to cause a normal person to make such an emotional U-turn? Not even Adolf Hitler could make a woman turn around like this!

Take comfort in the fact that the breakup wasn't really about you. But also be very sad that the relationship itself was not really about you.

Has she forgotten about you, gotten over you? Quite possibly. For the moment. But with what you've learned about BPD and triggering, there's certainly a chance that someday you'll be painted white.

Don't expect that day to come, but be ready if it does!

[woodsposse]

The question of what's real comes up often on here. I think it's all real in the sense that it all happened. Was it sincere? Maybe from this standpoint: she was sincerely (as she would interpret the word) trying to meet her needs of the moment and she used her extensive set of survival tools toward that end. But a good relationship isn't all about one person at the expense of another.

SUSTAINABLE is a key word here. They don't have the wherewithall to sustain a loving relationship. Remember, they lack the ability to love themselves. They can no more go through a r/s without inevitably being triggered to split you black than you could walk blindfolded through a pride of lions after being coated with meat sauce.

Just think about it. Play it over and over. Lies. Deceptions. Cheating. Drama. Bad moods. Sad moods. Projecting. Splitting. Hurting you. Just dumping you. Giving you no closure.

This is a person who promised you the moon and the stars, who idolized you, who called you her soul mate and her rock.

What could you possibly have done to cause a normal person to make such an emotional U-turn? Not even Adolf Hitler could make a woman turn around like this!

Take comfort in the fact that the breakup wasn't really about you. But also be very sad that the relationship itself was not really about you.

Has she forgotten about you, gotten over you? Quite possibly. For the moment. But with what you've learned about BPD and triggering, there's certainly a chance that someday you'll be painted white.

Don't expect that day to come, but be ready if it does!

Damn, I couldn't have worded it any better.

It is sad to realize that the r/s wasn't about me.  Sad to say - but that is the truth.

What is even sadder is that pop culture and media (and Hollywood) make these "issues" normal.  We fall into it thinking it is normal.  How can it not be normal.  But we ride the ride and think "something is not right".  so we try self help books... . try better commuinications tactics... . religion... . Ophrah... . Doctor Phil... . you name it - we try it. Nothing makes sense.

Then we end up here - and all the pieces fall into place.

Here is my story after ending up here. 

Everything fell into place.  Everything made sense.  I hated it. I hated the realization that I walked into this. I hated the part I played. I hate the realization I could have changed/fixed this if I had known - but also knowing even if I had I known I couldn't do anything.

I know she is having problems in her r/s with the replacments - and I hate knowing I was a replacement.  I hate knowing I gave my love to a ghost.  I hate knowing I know what I know and I cant touch her still.  I can't go to her tonight and show her this site and have everything be alright.

But... . I'm alright with that.

There is a world of love out there just for me.  There is a gaggle of people who know what I'm saying - who can hear me. My heart isn't dead.  It just needed a little cocoon time.

I admit, a part of me likes knowing that the chaos continues for her... . heaven help the victim she has now roped into the next 18 years because she just gave birth.  Dude... . you have no idea what you just stepped into.  I wish you the best - but I know what you just signed up for.

I allow myself to cry.  Not because I'm not strong... . but because I am.

I grieve the loss of my life.  I grieve the fact that I had no idea who I was married to.  I grieve the fact that I now know who she is - and there is nothing I can do.

There is nothing I can do.

That is the hardest part.  I can't do anything.

Well... . except live.

and live well.

[Tausk]

I've learned that therapy for BPD attempts to remove the false self masks and let the inner child, who is a good person, begin the painful process of healing. By all accounts this is extremely difficult work.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  From what I've read, for higher functioning BPD's the emphasis is simply on coping skills.  Trying to break down everything in an older higher functioning BPD would probably cause a psychotic break precisely because there is no inner child to help find a stable base.

The techniques you describe are for BPD's in a severe state and highly likely to kill themselves anyways.

A decent therapist would never try the above with a high functioning pwBPD, because it could easily cause the patient to commit suicide.  And there's very little data on high functioning pwBPD finding their true sense of self.  

I believe that the general feeling is that pwBPD don't have an inner child.  :)BT, CBT tend to operate on survival skills.  Even recovery for a pwBPD is a different definition than recovery for a person in AA.  Recovery for pwBPD, doesn't mean that they can ever take responsibility, or feel empathy, of find a sense of self.  It just means that maybe they won't act out as impulsively based on their feelings.  

And the reason why I bring this up is because in order to recover I have to give up any malignant hope that my ex gfwBPD will some how get better.  Will somehow find herself and be able to take responsibility.  Or at least apologize to me or validate my efforts.  Ain't gonna happen.  

Therefore the only issue of real relevance is why did I fall into the relationship trap.  I learn about the Disorder only to help me better understand myself.  Not to hope for change for my ex.  And for me, the abandoned child/lonely child model fit to a tee, which included the idealization, devaluation, and lack of self.  

[day2day]

Tausk, I urge you to check the article I referred to in an earlier post on this thread by Dr. Paul J. Hannig. There is no denying that a therapist must be extremely skilled, patient, and careful. His article... . certainly not the only one I've read that follows along these lines... . suggests that the inner self, although strongly repressed, remains present and sometimes, in the hands of an excellent therapist working with a cooperative patient, may be reachable to a worthwhile extent.

I'm not a therapist, just a jilted and confused ex-partner left in the wake of a BPD disaster. I think you're right on target when you say we have to finally accept that the ship has sailed and now concentrate on going forward, one small step at a time.

[Tausk]

Tausk, I urge you to check the article I referred to in an earlier post on this thread by Dr. Paul J. Hannig. There is no denying that a therapist must be extremely skilled, patient, and careful. His article... . certainly not the only one I've read that follows along these lines... . suggests that the inner self, although strongly repressed, remains present and sometimes, in the hands of an excellent therapist working with a cooperative patient, may be reachable to a worthwhile extent.

I'm not a therapist, just a jilted and confused ex-partner left in the wake of a BPD disaster. I think you're right on target when you say we have to finally accept that the ship has sailed and now concentrate on going forward, one small step at a time.

The article you cite was printed in Primal Renaissance: The Journal of Primal Psychology, which no real clinical psychologist would ever publish in.  The article has never been cited by another rated journal. And the Journal it was published in is not even rated as an academic journal.  My guess is that it is a pay for publication.

I read a bit or the article.  It's pretty well written, but the problem is that there are many assumptions without specific cites.  In addition, although maybe much of it is based on data, if you can't sort through the truth from the lies/speculation it's actually worse than having no information.  Because you could believe the false hoods.  It's like me saying, 1+1=2,  and then you should also believe that the decay rate of an radioactive isotope is the inverse of the natural log with respect to time.   :'(

He claims that BPD's have a false self.  He claims he can find the inner child in a BPD. It sounds nice, but such malignant hope could inspire millions of couples to spend their life-savings on this guy to find the inner child in the BPD.  He could live off the $200 a week from you until you are totally broke and wasted most of your life on malignant hope.  And don't you think that if he had really "cured" some pwBPD and found their inner child he would be world famous by now?  

":)r." Hannig, never once states where his Ph.D is from.  Any real researcher always lets you know where he did his research and received his training.  He is not on any reputable boards, or on staff at any accredited research institution, and has not publications in a rated academic journal.   However, he does have a "Meet Up" profile and has 40 connections on linked-in.    But even there he never reveals his education.  He might be like Dr. Laura who's Ph.d was in physical education and not mental health.  And he might have gotten his degree from a mail order company.  And yes he's accredited as a counselor, but all that takes a a degree in social work with some counseling credits.

He has a marriage counseling business, as well as some nice new age therapies, a telephone counseling service, and an interview on a website with an ad in the middle of the interview asking, "Is he cheating on you?"  On his website he offers the following therapies:  THERAPY: Hypnosis: Beyond Therapy, Teletherapy: Telephone & Skype Video Sessions,  E-Therapy,  :)eep Feeling Therapy, Music in Therapy, Separation Counseling, The Love Program, Healing Meditations, Power of Prayer/Psycho-Spiritual Therapy



Is this the guy you want to trust to totally break down a pwBPD and hope that a psychotic break doesn't occur.  He's a marriage counselor.  Not a clinical psychologist.  What marriage counselors don't tell you is that they see couples with a partner with BPD all the time.  And they say up front that they work for the relationship.  They don't make clinical diagnosis at the time.  So, couples like us spend countless days and hours trying to fix things.  A couple with a pwBPD is a CASH COW for MARRIAGE COUNSELORS.

Why do I say this... . again, because is important to look only at the real data that is out there.  There are tons of people who say that they can fix marriages no matter what, or can cure a pwBPD.  But if this guy could cure a pwBPD... . he'd be the richest and most famous therapist in the world.  Half of Hollywood would be lining up to his door.  

The title of this thread is "A few things are stopping me from moving on."  I don't want the malignant hope that is derived from an advertising paper from a marriage counselor to drum up business to be the basis for anyone to keep from moving on. 

I've been stuck in malignant hope for a long time.  It comes and goes, but I work hard at acceptance that there is no hope for a cure for my ex.

It doesn't sound like you are stuck on the idea of fixing your ex.  I just don't want any other new people on here thinking that a cure is realistic.  Even some sense of manageability is rare.  But I've only heard of a few pwBPD who have actually developed a self, and even those I'm skeptical about.

You say you've read other articles claiming a cure for BPD.  I'm curious if they are reputable.  From my discussions with my T (very clinical, well read, Ph.D from reputable University and peer reviewer on journals) he has indicated that most of the successful cases comes from severely low functioning people who in a controlled setting (psych ward) have been broken down, and new self rebuilt to an extent.  There's very little data on a high functioning pwBPD going through this process, because again, no therapist in their right mind would do it.  All it takes is one patient to jump off a twenty story building to ruin a private therapy practice forever.

Malignant Hope that things will change with our exes can cause some of us to lose their lives in a wasteful and destructive endeavor.  Be careful what you read, because so much of it is bunk.

[Tausk]

Oh yeah I forgot this part that comes from the abstract:

The borderline has a deep, underlying terror of catastrophic annihilation, which may have its earliest roots in trauma surrounding the blastocyst's need to connect to the uterine wall and even to trauma surrounding conception, involving the egg's rejection of the sperm.



What the heck?  Impossible to prove untrue.  How do we know how hard it was for Daddy's sperm to penetrate Mommy's egg.  Or how hard it was for a pwBPD initial blastocyst to connect to Mommy's uterine wall.  And if this is the reason our ex's have BPD.  Not because of the f'cked up family life or sexual molestation, or genetic factors... . It's because the egg played hard to get with the sperm at the moment of conception.  

Very simply, I wouldn't trust anything in this article because I can't figure out fact from pure speculation.  

I had to read and read and read to learn what I feel I needed to learn to let go.   It's so easy for me to think, "if only I could have done this... . or maybe it could end this way... . "  But the fact is that I gave everything.  I tried and tried and tried... . And the only thing that changed was that it got worse and worse and worse.

It was a fantasy based on a false ego and a selfless person.  It never had a chance.  It was never real.  I wasn't real.  She wasn't real.   I have to let go with out reservation.

[Glef]

@Woods Posse - I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. I sometimes feel stupid on this board, as I wake up agonizing over some young girl who only took half a year from me, while others have married them and have children.

I really hope you do live well. Other people can see the beauty in you, and they will appreciate what you have to give!

@Tausk - Are you saying you think at the end of the day, there is no core personality? No true self?

I ask a lot about this, because this is my biggest struggle understanding the disorder. I cant comprehend at the end of the day not having a self. When she told me she wants to own a doggy day care, have a place in the country, have kids and travel - is that not the self? I cant help but wonder if she is closer to what I wanted in a woman or what she seems to be now with the down slope of the party life.

Just think about it. Play it over and over. Lies. Deceptions. Cheating. Drama. Bad moods. Sad moods. Projecting. Splitting. Hurting you. Just dumping you. Giving you no closure.

This is a person who promised you the moon and the stars, who idolized you, who called you her soul mate and her rock.

What could you possibly have done to cause a normal person to make such an emotional U-turn? Not even Adolf Hitler could make a woman turn around like this!

Take comfort in the fact that the breakup wasn't really about you. But also be very sad that the relationship itself was not really about you.

Has she forgotten about you, gotten over you? Quite possibly. For the moment. But with what you've learned about BPD and triggering, there's certainly a chance that someday you'll be painted white.

Don't expect that day to come, but be ready if it does!

This rings true. I know in the end I did all I could. Even when she wouldn't let me see her, I was there.

[Tausk]

@Tausk - Are you saying you think at the end of the day, there is no core personality? No true self?

I ask a lot about this, because this is my biggest struggle understanding the disorder. I cant comprehend at the end of the day not having a self. When she told me she wants to own a doggy day care, have a place in the country, have kids and travel - is that not the self? I cant help but wonder if she is closer to what I wanted in a woman or what she seems to be now with the down slope of the party life.

It's a really hard concept.  But I've learned to accept as the truth.  It's generally considered true for pwBPD that they do not have a core self.  Of course there's a big spectrum, and the behaviors of a pwBPD are found in everyone.  

But things I had to think about:

What I read about BPD and this board for the most part ring absolutely true for me.  The patterns are too clear to be luck.  And the experts on BPD state that a core self is not present in pwBPD.

My ex was never able to apologize for anything.  Apologizes require a deep sense of self.  Insecure sane people can barely apologize.  A Disordered person can't at all.

My ex's thinking was so easily split into black and white.  It's a core self that allow for mixed thinking on life's issues and emotions.

My ex started a Facebook page soon after I left, and when I looked at it, I didn't even recognize it to be her.  I could literally feel her trying to pick things to "Like" and be interested in so that she could portray being a real person.

My ex mirrored me so completely and fluidly.  There was no self to stop the mirroring.

My ex went from mirroring me, to overnight changing and mirroring her new attachment.  I didn't even recognize that she was the same woman that I loved.   Ever further evidence of no self.

And at times my ex, just didn't know who she was or what she wanted/needed.  

Under stress my ex would move into a reptilian stare and be almost catatonic.  No self to be found in those vacant eyes.

There four basic personalities of a pwBPD.  My ex had them all, but one was not accountable for the actions and words of the others.  A lack of self allows for these personalities as well.

I'm not a psychologist, but finally understanding the lack-of-self for pwBPD as truth is what brought me the most freedom, allowed me to detach, and then forced me to look at my FOO issues.

Take it easy.  

[Glef]

I had no idea experts agreed there is no true self. I just can't wrap my head around that. What they think about when they are alone in their room. I guess they maybe can't be alone?

Any reason to why they can have long term friendships? Is it basically just a need as well? Because they just throw on a mask, get validation and can come home later? While relationships involve more honesty and vulnerability.


I can really see your examples in my own situation.

My ex was never able to apologize for anything.  Apologizes require a deep sense of self.  Insecure sane people can barely apologize.  A Disordered person can't at all.

I once got one apology, but it didn't feel that sincere. It was like she just a couple lines rehearsed.

But when the falling out happened - none. Just worse explanations and almost a defense that she was the victim here.

My ex started a Facebook page soon after I left, and when I looked at it, I didn't even recognize it to be her.  I could literally feel her trying to pick things to "Like" and be interested in so that she could portray being a real person.

This for sure. When I met her, she was at a wedding, with no make-up and switched in to jeans as soon as she could. She made a comment about she'd get married in jeans. She now makes herself look like a doll.

I noticed they don't really commit to certain interests either. Things like Facebook pages are often a blank canvas.

My ex mirrored me so completely and fluidly.  There was no self to stop the mirroring.

My ex went from mirroring me, to overnight changing and mirroring her new attachment.  I didn't even recognize that she was the same woman that I loved.   Ever further evidence of no self.

And at times my ex, just didn't know who she was or what she wanted/needed.  

I hate this most. What I thought was a rare human connection was just someone immitating, and saying what I wanted to hear.

I recall we used to talk about big life ideas - our morals and values. We barely talked about hobbies for the longest time. When it came down to it though, she didn't seem to have any passions or hobbies. She couldnt tell me anything. I guess they can't commit to anything like that and its always fleeting.

Under stress my ex would move into a reptilian stare and be almost catatonic.  No self to be found in those vacant eyes.

After I caught my ex in the lie that ended things, I let her sleep in my room. I knew it was done and told her feelings I had, but it was like talking to a robot. She was eerily calm, withdrawn and not phased by my words. She then slept like a baby. I stayed up all night, cause of the pain and fear of not knowing if she was on something or  not. I see now that it was probably a kind of dissociative state. Her attitude and ease in the most messed up night of my life still disturbs me. 

[Dutched]

From my point of view there is partially a core self. But logically how can there be a total core when a child between 2-5 (where the core is moulded) is not given the care/love to develop that core?

I am on this Board too, not without any reason…  In order to make the disorder better to understand for us, ( accessible) matters are in a way be simplified as we are laymen and post our experiences in order to support each other on our way to recovery.

Back to that core. “they” long so intense deep for love, so deep they want that love which was in a way never given to them in a healthy way (besides research in which more an more evidence is found that the Amygdala, part of the limbic system which controls emotions, is less developed. So not all wires are connected as in an average person).

They were not given the “security” of being loved when the caretaker was not visible => the object constant.

In order to function in society a BPD therefore creates (unconsciously) a self,  the false self we see. 

I attended several meetings (triads) in which family members, professionals and BPD’s (low and high functioning) were present. The most astonishing to learn was (which is no different as told many times on this Board):

“they” sincerely love you and “hate” you as you are perceived not to be trustworthy.

“they” however love you still… and have a deeply hope you reach out, “they” can’t .

The more you reach out, the more “they” feel you care, the more “they” get frightened.

But hate is care, it is not indifference.

In order to avoid all that pain, “they” m u s t  cut you out, as the pain of losing the one “they” love the most hurts so much more.  Remains 1 option, switch emotions of and move on…

Switch emotions of… the core was not completed, so there is no healthy way to process the feelings of losing a loved one, to grieve. Just not to process as we do.

Do “they” suffer? Yes, absolutely, though “they” don’t want other to see their always present inner turmoil, so “they” show us their “successes”…  a complete make over of their appearances, cloths, color of hair, Facebook postings, having a wonderful time,  etc.

After a very long r/s with a high functioning wife, left a 3 yrs. ago, I still notice her grieve. Expressed in a very dissociative way, nothing has changed since she crumbled down after her last and final outburst.

I've learned that therapy for BPD attempts to remove the false self masks and let the inner child, who is a good person, begin the painful process of healing. By all accounts this is extremely difficult work.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  From what I've read, for higher functioning BPD's the emphasis is simply on coping skills.  Trying to break down everything in an older higher functioning BPD would probably cause a psychotic break precisely because there is no inner child to help find a stable base.

The techniques you describe are for BPD's in a severe state and highly likely to kill themselves anyways.

A decent therapist would never try the above with a high functioning pwBPD, because it could easily cause the patient to commit suicide.  And there's very little data on high functioning pwBPD finding their true sense of self.   

A professional from my local Group would also agree with that. I attended that Group a 3-4 yrs. before the break-up and wanted to know possibilities for her “healing”(as I was unknown at that time). The answer was a bit disillusional. Offering therapy in which her coping skils would be better developed, nothing more a rebuilding a total self would break the person beyond repair. But he gave the advise ( as exBPDw refused to get help) to learn skills myself to canalize her behaviour for the stability of my family.

It is not my intention to offend any of you as we all come here to support each other after our r/s caused us so much pain.

[Tausk]

I don't know if I can justify my statement that experts agree... . It's like saying 4 out of 5 shrinks say that BPD... .

But if you look at the literature, one of the key aspects of pwBPD is an unstable sense of self.  I'm not saying that it necessarily means that there is no self, but it sure as heck doesn't mean that there is an inner child like the "average" person has.  

When I hit bottom, I didn't know who I was, but then connected with the essence of my "self" and built around my core self and values.  

My ex was quantum in nature in that she had multiple persona's that were in effect driving the bus simultaneously.  None was the real boss or the real essence.  Thus the push/pull, love/hate, attachment/engulfment... .

It's very sad.  A traumatized three-year old who has stopped developing.  Certain neuro-pathways for higher order emotional functions just were never developed.  That's why it's amazing that my ex and some many others with BPD survive.  

But understanding this helped.  I always wanted my ex to have the realization.  But having that realization was beyond her.  Even knowing that she was Disordered was beyond her.  She went to DBT and all she could say was she wasn't like the other girls in the therapy.

She didn't have the capacity to understand who she was, because there was no core self to evaluate and understand in the first place.

And the Hollywood style facade of a set in front with nothing behind, that was normal for her.

Sadness.

[day2day]

This is a very thought-provoking thread. I've been doing a lot more research in light of tausk's comments. Whether or not there's a core self, an inner child, in a BPD sufferer is not universally agreed upon. I guess that's not surprising given the history of psychotherapy with strong adherents to this school or that school of what really goes on inside our heads. Dr. Hannig may not be the most credible source of information, but he's out there for consideration. A.J. Mahari is widely found in BPD searches and is actually referenced in Randi Kreger's ground-breaking "Eggshells" book; she believes in an inner child. James Masterson and Alice Miller are two other respected authorities who seem to feel an inner child may exist.

But the point isn't to debate whether there is or isn't one; at least I don't think so. As tausk points out, most modern therapy work takes the more conservative approach of trying to teach coping skills and mindfulness. I was surprised... . shocked, in fact... . to see a recent wikipedia article... . yes, I know, it's wikipedia... . that has statistics that claim that much higher percentages of BPDs who have willingly gone to therapy have been helped than the prevailing ideas would have you believe.

The point is, those with untreated BPD have significant problems in

relationships, whether they have one self, two selves, or ten thousand.

For those of us who have been through the wringer with someone like this, it's likely to have been comparable to no other troubling experience

we've ever faced.  I like the point tausk made about how we have to sink to the bottom and then turn to whatever core self lies within us to begin to rebuild. And it's with help of medication, good therapists and the great people on this board that we're not absolutely alone in this battle to get back on an even playing field with life.

I'm almost ten months past my breakup and my life has gone from miserable to tolerable. There is so much to try and understand about a condition that seems to defy understanding. Every day I read something on this board or elsewhere, or just have a thought occur to me about my r/s, that practically stops me in my tracks and makes me shake my head. The mental weight seems to get heavier and lighter at the same time. Heavier, because there are so many overlooked or misinterpreted aspects that we continue to recognize and try to connect, and that's mentally exhausting. Lighter, because the more we understand even a portion of this nightmare, the more we can gain a perspective that may allow us to not simply give up on ourselves.

A paradox, just as BPD seems to be.

[Tausk]

Yes, I relate to what Dutch, Glef an Day2Day all wrote.  And there are no absolutes.  I caution D2D on the wiki page.  There's a lot of treatment people claiming success numbers.  But the even the concept of recovery is very misused in the BPD treatment world.  

In 12 step groups such as AA, recovery means finding the self, accepting responsibility and growing from the core.   And this is where the concepts of recovery originally formed.  Recovery of the core self, the inner child.

But for BPD treatment, the definition of recovery is that a pwBPD stops displaying the outward behavior that categorizes BPD.   In essence the patient:  stops cutting themselves to shreds.  They stop cheating with anything that walks.  They stop gaslighting themselves into Disorderly Conduct arrests.   HEY: DISORDERLY CONDUCT ARRESTS... . I JUST REALIZED THE IRONY OF THAT STATEMENT!  

Recovery and remission of symptoms does not mean:  establishment of a stable sense of self, does not mean the ability to take responsibility or apologies, does not mean developing the ability to empathize, it does not mean the stopping of splitting and black and white thinking.  

All recovery is pwBPD is the moderation of the outward emotional responses and the acting out.

And the clinical definition for recovery/remission for pwBPD is basically for something like a two year period.  There are no cures, and relapses are very very very common.  So you might be with someone wBPD who can sublimate the gaslighting and over the top responses for two years. This is considered recovery and remission of the Disorder.  But then your ex relapses and it all goes to hell again.  For example, you try and function as a couple.  And then you get into an argument, and your ex wBPD goes out and cheats on you.  You went from BPD recovery to nonrecovery... . whatever that means.

And, you'll never have the guarantee that your ex will be able to at least acknowledge that she is cheating on you.   That she will have any concept of how here actions are affect you.  That she will ever be able to apologize for her cheating.  

I love AJ Mahari, but she's in business.  Masterson is the expert. He worked primarily with the lowest functioning BPD where it was necessary to breakdown the psyche and then rebuild.  These were primarily teenage girls who cut themselves to shreds and have made very real attempts of suicide.  Without the radical breakdown of the psyche, and a rebuild, they weren't going to survive.  And many didn't.  There's like no data on high functioning BPD's who actually are able to build a strong core self.  And there's a lot of conjecture that high functioning BPD's are less likely to follow up with the pain of treatment since that are able to survive in the world to a certain degree.  Which means it's even less likely that our exes on this board will get real help and realizations.

Understanding and accepting these concepts of who pwBPD really are, and what the Disorder really about, are what I needed to do to depersonalize the Disorder.  The post below is a seminal piece written by 2010.  It's one of the great pieces in the history of BPD and will be used by people for the rest of time.

If the article resonates with you, don't fear... . feel good because it means that recovery is possible for you.  And I mean the recovery of discovery of our core selves, our inner child, the essence of what make us who we are, of what makes us good and caring and kind, and not a false self/ego.  The real self. And we can build who we really always wanted to be from the core self.

I've been doing it.  It takes time, but after a year and half of hard work, I'm farther along than I ever could have imagined.

[Tausk]

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure. 

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction. 

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos. 

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole. 

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.  The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.

[day2day]

Wow. That dissertation by 2010 totally rocked my world. Amazing that all those psychodynamics could take place in a r/s and actually be articulated in such detail and depth. Makes me wonder if there's anyone on the planet who's not totally screwed up. Makes me wonder how two people ever find each other and actually make it work. Almost makes me wish I had been born a starfish!

[woodsposse]

Wow. That dissertation by 2010 totally rocked my world. Amazing that all those psychodynamics could take place in a r/s and actually be articulated in such detail and depth. Makes me wonder if there's anyone on the planet who's not totally screwed up. Makes me wonder how two people ever find each other and actually make it work. Almost makes me wish I had been born a starfish!

Wow is right.

It just described my r/s almost down to the letter. 

Must process this.

[outside9x]

Holy Cow!  I need to save this whole post. Special thanks to ":)AY2DAY".

I been gone for about 9 months , after over two years with my abusive beauty.  I won't go into it, but I do get hung up, as we get so pulled in to what we need, or missing and they now how to fill that void perfectly, in fact in a fantasy type of way until they change, but like DAY2DAY said, some of stay to long, for many stupid reasons, which we label love which it isn't.

Anyway, even after the break I get hung up on this and that.  Lately, it was how involved she used to be with the church and donating her services.  Well, I try to tell myself she a very Christian person, but remembered, once I met her, I couldn't even get her to go to church, she stop donating her time, she got kicked out of her 12 step program, (How does that happen)  .  I also, remember after two children, she has no friends, or the one friend she did who was very meek, she tossed after a minor dispute, and said, I don't needs friends that badly.  She has none, and no one in her family, uncles, aunts, sisters or brothers, and father, has anything to do with her. ( engaged 4 times, divorced 3) 

Gee, I need my head examine to think this could work.  Do I need to be hit over the head by a HAMMER.  DO I THINK I AM THAT SPECIAL TO SAVE HER!  thanks to all!

[woodsposse]

One of the things which resonated with me in that long post was how accurately it described what I have been struggling with in my head as to why I do some things the way I do them with people.  Not just my ex (although that is kinda an extreme case, since we were married and all).

But I had even noticed some friends where I stayed in a r/s, had them around even though I knew the involvement wasn't best (especially for my wellness).  But I just couldn't figure out why I stayed.

And the description of the lonely child needing/being "understanding driven" is a very clear representation of where I am (was) at.  It is a mystery which needs to be solved.  If I can find the right words, the right understanding, the right metaphoer... . something - to pull it all together and make a lightbulb either go off in my head or theirs... . then we can get this party started.

There is a reason for everything.

And maybe the reason I stayed in and around toxic r/s is ... . I just needed to understand.  From my POV, with the information I could gleen... . I could see no reason why the logic wasn't sound - but it didn't seem to work.  So that means there is either something I'm missing... . or the person is just not understanding.  So I search for both. 

But what I'm coming to realize is that if there is something I'm missing (and the person just isn't an insane mentally retarded person)... . then maybe they just don't want me to know something.  It isn't that there is a problem with my logic - oh the logic could be and is sound.  I just don't have all the data as to why they don't want to see how simple it is.

So it's easier to let it go.

Well... . depending on what the mystery is (that is).

I still have a difficult time letting stuff go that I clearly want to know the answer to.  Even for the simple fact of just knowing the answer.  Not like it is gonna change anything.

But as it double backs to my s/o... . I know I will never know everything I want to know about what she did, what she thought, how she thought it - because if she wanted me to know it, I would have known it, been able to work with it - and perhaps, we would still be together.  And that is one of the hardest parts of letting go.

Oh I know I had to.  I know I had to understand my part in it fully and completely - but I'll never be able to fully understand hers... . because she can't tell me - the disorder won't let her.  So it is one of those things I just have to do.  Let it go.