Deal #2 question Do I let my wife come along to church with me and kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So... this past Sunday was a new issue for me... . I'll have to hand it to my uBPDw... it was creative... . but she will be stuck pretty soon... I think.

She announces as we are getting ready for church that she and kids are going to another church, there is nothing I can do about it, I tried to discuss it with the family and was talked over (almost shouted down)... . I asked when I would be able to discuss this with the kids... . and was told when we divorce.  The deal would be... according to me wife... I get to go to "my" church with the kids on the next weekend and we would be alternating "having" the kids for going to church.

So... she went this past Sunday and I will have them this Sunday.  I'm looking forward to enjoying them without uBPDw around.

The question becomes... . what do I do when she "decides" to tag along anyway... . and back out on the deal of me having them alone.

I'm sure she will say it's Easter... it's not fair... she didn't think it through... . or she will "ask" the kids if they want her to come... .

There has been lots of church drama... I'm usually really on guard for her doing things while there... and I'm looking forward to not feeling that way.  I enjoyed going to church alone.

Thoughts?  My intentions are to try to go with just me and kids... . even if that leaves her pitching a fit at home.  Or... I'll just not go... if she insists on coming.

I'm a bit new to this limit setting thing... . hoping I am applying the right principle here.

[formflier]

So... this past Sunday was a new issue for me... . I'll have to hand it to my uBPDw... it was creative... . but she will be stuck pretty soon... I think.

She announces as we are getting ready for church that she and kids are going to another church, there is nothing I can do about it, I tried to discuss it with the family and was talked over (almost shouted down)... . I asked when I would be able to discuss this with the kids... . and was told when we divorce.  The deal would be... according to me wife... I get to go to "my" church with the kids on the next weekend and we would be alternating "having" the kids for going to church.

So... she went this past Sunday and I will have them this Sunday.  I'm looking forward to enjoying them without uBPDw around.

The question becomes... . what do I do when she "decides" to tag along anyway... . and back out on the deal of me having them alone.

I'm sure she will say it's Easter... it's not fair... she didn't think it through... . or she will "ask" the kids if they want her to come... .

There has been lots of church drama... I'm usually really on guard for her doing things while there... and I'm looking forward to not feeling that way.  I enjoyed going to church alone.

Thoughts?  My intentions are to try to go with just me and kids... . even if that leaves her pitching a fit at home.  Or... I'll just not go... if she insists on coming.

I'm a bit new to this limit setting thing... . hoping I am applying the right principle here.

[Grey Kitty]

It sounds like your wife just declared that this was the new system and there is no negotiation.

If she has the power to declare something like this without any (effective) response on your part, she also has the power to change the "agreement" when the part that isn't in her favor comes up.

Looking at your other recent postings, I see powerful threats from your wife, keeping you away from your children, divorce and attempting to harm your employment.

I think you have noticed is that if she can make a horrible enough threat and you then capitulate, that just encourages her to do it more often... . not good for you or your marriage.

So here's the tough question for you: Where are your personal limits? I suspect that the toughest one to figure out is her taking your children away, as you really don't want to be in a shouting match in front of your children, and she is taking advantage of that.

One thing to understand about using boundary enforcement to protect yourself (or your children): You cannot stop her from doing anything. You also cannot make her do anything.

All you can do is remove yourself (and your children if applicable) from the consequences of her actions.

A good example of this is one you seem to be already doing--If she makes threats, you stop interacting with her.

Have you read our workshop(s) on boundaries yet?

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[formflier]

i'll spend some time on those workshops before Sunday.  I agree with your assessment about making powerful threats.

Here is the thing... . that hopefully the workshops and these boards will help with... . is that I properly set a boundary for myself... . and demonstrate that publicly in the right way to my family.

My gut says that if she hops in the van... . I hop out... . otherwise I would be conceding to her power to "make" me back out on the deal and go to church with her.

Note to everyone:  If I knew church would go well... . and we could worship together as a family I would love to go with her.  However... . she has picked a lady in church (that I also work with) as the latest "whore" that the marriage needs to be protected from.

She made this deal about every other Sunday in full view of kids.  I did not shout... . she did (or very close to it)... . so I understand that my actions will speak volumes to my kids as well.  I have a couple days to think through those actions.

There is a religious principle here (I'm a conservative Baptist) that the man should be the leader of his house and set the example to follow and "turn the other cheek"... . put myself last and all that.  There is a principle of dealing with people with BPD about setting limits and taking care of myself first.  Those two principles are in conflict with each other.  I believe that a good bit of our issues in the past came from me "turning the other cheek"... . "putting myself last"... . and not setting limits.  I didn't exactly think of it in those terms then... . but in effect I think that is what I did.

If there are any comments from those with a religious background similar to mine and how they worked through the principles that are in conflict... . I'm all ears!

So far... . I've not backed down on a limit that I have set.   On several occasions I have decided to delay implementing a limit until I have thought it through.  I also have not communicated the limits other than by my actions. 


I appreciate this board and all the advice.  I'll spend some time on those limit setting lessons.

Thanks

It sounds like your wife just declared that this was the new system and there is no negotiation.

If she has the power to declare something like this without any (effective) response on your part, she also has the power to change the "agreement" when the part that isn't in her favor comes up.

Looking at your other recent postings, I see powerful threats from your wife, keeping you away from your children, divorce and attempting to harm your employment.

I think you have noticed is that if she can make a horrible enough threat and you then capitulate, that just encourages her to do it more often... . not good for you or your marriage.

So here's the tough question for you: Where are your personal limits? I suspect that the toughest one to figure out is her taking your children away, as you really don't want to be in a shouting match in front of your children, and she is taking advantage of that.

One thing to understand about using boundary enforcement to protect yourself (or your children): You cannot stop her from doing anything. You also cannot make her do anything.

All you can do is remove yourself (and your children if applicable) from the consequences of her actions.

A good example of this is one you seem to be already doing--If she makes threats, you stop interacting with her.

Have you read our workshop(s) on boundaries yet?

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[tucsonstrom]

Formflier:  I went through a simular set of circumstances just last Easter.   In the beginning exBPDgf loved the fact I was active in the church.   Didn't take her long to identify the 'whores' and start acting out.   I, like you, believe in being the spirtual leader of the family and "turn the other cheek" beliefs.

Last Easter she made such a scene I chose NEVER to bring her to church again.   It was not negotiable anymore.   I refuse to subject myself to rage and public embarassment.  If there is any place on earth you should feel peace and tranquillity is your place of worship.   That was a decision I needed to enforce for my own health.

I still take my daughter, but I won't let exBPDgf ruin another minute of my spititual journey.

good luck   

[Grey Kitty]

This sounds good:

My gut says that if she hops in the van... . I hop out... . otherwise I would be conceding to her power to "make" me back out on the deal and go to church with her.

Because you cannot stop her from going to church. All you can do is refuse to go with her.

The more extreme version of this one would be to take your children with you if she decides to go along. Yes, I know that would be more of a provocation to her, so don't do it lightly. In fact I'm not going to recommend that, at least for now.

Note to everyone:  If I knew church would go well... . and we could worship together as a family I would love to go with her. 

Sigh. But wishes won't change the situation.

How are your children handling these conflicts?

[formflier]

How are your children handling these conflicts?

They appear to be handling it well... . I tried to "stand up" to her once we she was berating one of my kids... . he ended up yelling at us to quit fighting.

I was asking her to stop repetitively asking the same question and ended up standing between wife and child.

I don't think I did that day "right"... but still don't know what I should have done.  It is one thing to her my wife taking the verbal "flamethrower" to kids and deciding not to walk across the house and intervene.  It is another thing to be in a room... see it... and walk out.  I figured my kid would think it was abandonment.

I'm still processing all this... . the BPD stuff... . since early January is when I kinda realized what was going on and started reading.

So... limited talks with kids... but I need to sort that out at some point.

[formflier]

Can I ask what she did that got you to that point.  I'm close to that point. 

So far... . I don't think it is common knowledge that there are issues in the marriage... . if I start coming without her... . eventually people will ask.  It's a small town and a small church.  I'm a very public figure and make a point to talk to lots of people... .

Since I haven't been asked what is up with her... . I haven't had to say... . but I need to figure that out.  It is one thing to advertise my wifes faults (I will not do that)... . it is another for someone to ask out of Christian concern why my wife is not attending... . I'm not going to lie.  I don't think that is healthy for the body of Christ (church)... . so... . I need to figure that out. 

Any help is appreciated.

Formflier:  I went through a simular set of circumstances just last Easter.   In the beginning exBPDgf loved the fact I was active in the church.   :)idn't take her long to identify the 'whores' and start acting out.   I, like you, believe in being the spirtual leader of the family and "turn the other cheek" beliefs.

Last Easter she made such a scene I chose NEVER to bring her to church again.   It was not negotiable anymore.   I refuse to subject myself to rage and public embarassment.  If there is any place on earth you should feel peace and tranquillity is your place of worship.   That was a decision I needed to enforce for my own health.

I still take my daughter, but I won't let exBPDgf ruin another minute of my spititual journey.

good luck   

[bpbreakout]

I have had similar situations many times. If it were me dealing with this when it came to the day that it was me and kids going to church I would let BPDw come along to church with me and kids if she changed her mind at the last minute. This would be one the basis that it's a family event and I wouldn't want to let BPW's behaviour with the other church affect the way I want to live my life.

The "hopping out of the van" approach is interesting I might try it - it certainly sends a message. I can see it would probably leave BPDw not knowing what to do next, maybe freaked out, though she might use it as a way of painting you black to the children.

[Grey Kitty]

It is one thing to advertise my wifes faults (I will not do that)... . it is another for someone to ask out of Christian concern why my wife is not attending... . I'm not going to lie.  I don't think that is healthy for the body of Christ (church)... . so... . I need to figure that out.

I find that the best way to handle this sort of thing is to respond directly when asked with comments about my wife's behavior or choices, keeping it short and simple.

For example:

"She decided not to go to church with me."

Possibly add "I don't know if she will be back" should you be asked about that. (You really don't know! Things could be very different if you are painted white next week.)

Don't JADE about your wife--don't say why you think she is doing (or not doing) something. Speaking of mental illness isn't helpful in that sort of situation either.

[tired-of-it-all]

Dear Form,

You situation is so very similar to mine.  I too am conservative Baptist.  My BPDWife used the "you are the head of household" on me when it was convenient for her but then got her way on everything by threatening and manipulating.  We all lived in fear that she would embarrass us in church.  

My wife was someone that the more we lived in fear the more power it gave her.  She did not have a job and did not have to deal with people other than the kids and me.  That meant that she got crazier and less social and more manipulative.  I started going to alanon and learned in the program to detach from her behavior.  I learned that her antics were a reflection on her and not on me.  I listened to so many people in the room who had lived with embarrassing spouses and who had been through such awkward situations that it made me less embarrassed by my wife's behavior.  

I eventually learned to stand up to her and to no longer care how she acted.  I learned to defuse some of the manipulation by telling some of the key people about her behavior and about my fear of what she might do.  I told the preacher so that I didn't have to feel alone and have to worry about what might happen.  By doing this I WAS NOT BETRAYING ANYONE.  SHE CAUSED THIS PROBLEM WITH HER BAD ANTICS.  I AM NOT OBLIGATED TO KEEP SECRET HER BAD BEHAVIOR.

Man so many of your posts remind me of my marriage several years ago.  We have to learn to set boundaries and to detach or these people just get worse and worse.  

Specific to your situation.  I would take the kids with me and tell her that she cannot go.  When she tries to change the rules I would say, "You made this rule and you are going to follow it."  I would then try to drive away with the kids.  If she violates this you are going to have to find some way to punish her.  You are going to have to find something that is a consequence for her bad behavior.  One thing that worked on my wife was that she loved to eat out.  I stopped taking her as punishment.  It worked for this particular issue.

Eventually I had to move out.  I took our younger son with me.  That was the atom bomb that got her attention.  She is still crazy as hell but it set boundaries and she behaves better.  I do not accept unacceptable behavior.

I know that I use this website to preach alanon but it was a huge help for me.  It is so nice to have a support group of live humans who have dealt with similar issues.  Their spouses may not be BPD but they are drunks and drug addicts and these have similar manipulative and embarrassing behaviors.

I hope this was some help.  Good luck my friend.  I truly empathize with you.

[formflier]

Thank you.  I will check out alanon.

I'm totally into looking for anything that will help.  I've looked at other boards or places and I've decided that for sure this seems to be best board for looking for solutions... . as opposed to a "poor me"... . look how bad my life is screwed up board.


I've known about BPD since January... so lots of this is new to me.  I'm hoping to get my decision tomorrow right... . but also realize that I'll do the best I can and move on.

Thanks for advice.  Anything in particular that you did to get to take your youngest son with you?  That might be start of new thread... . but some seem successful in removing kids and other kids seem to get trapped... . that is big concern of mine.

Dear Form,

You situation is so very similar to mine.  I too am conservative Baptist.  My BPDWife used the "you are the head of household" on me when it was convenient for her but then got her way on everything by threatening and manipulating.  We all lived in fear that she would embarrass us in church.  

My wife was someone that the more we lived in fear the more power it gave her.  She did not have a job and did not have to deal with people other than the kids and me.  That meant that she got crazier and less social and more manipulative.  I started going to alanon and learned in the program to detach from her behavior.  I learned that her antics were a reflection on her and not on me.  I listened to so many people in the room who had lived with embarrassing spouses and who had been through such awkward situations that it made me less embarrassed by my wife's behavior.  

I eventually learned to stand up to her and to no longer care how she acted.  I learned to defuse some of the manipulation by telling some of the key people about her behavior and about my fear of what she might do.  I told the preacher so that I didn't have to feel alone and have to worry about what might happen.  By doing this I WAS NOT BETRAYING ANYONE.  SHE CAUSED THIS PROBLEM WITH HER BAD ANTICS.  I AM NOT OBLIGATED TO KEEP SECRET HER BAD BEHAVIOR.

Man so many of your posts remind me of my marriage several years ago.  We have to learn to set boundaries and to detach or these people just get worse and worse.  

Specific to your situation.  I would take the kids with me and tell her that she cannot go.  When she tries to change the rules I would say, "You made this rule and you are going to follow it."  I would then try to drive away with the kids.  If she violates this you are going to have to find some way to punish her.  You are going to have to find something that is a consequence for her bad behavior.  One thing that worked on my wife was that she loved to eat out.  I stopped taking her as punishment.  It worked for this particular issue.

Eventually I had to move out.  I took our younger son with me.  That was the atom bomb that got her attention.  She is still crazy as hell but it set boundaries and she behaves better.  I do not accept unacceptable behavior.

I know that I use this website to preach alanon but it was a huge help for me.  It is so nice to have a support group of live humans who have dealt with similar issues.  Their spouses may not be BPD but they are drunks and drug addicts and these have similar manipulative and embarrassing behaviors.

I hope this was some help.  Good luck my friend.  I truly empathize with you.

[Grey Kitty]

CoDA (CoDependents Anonymous) is also a good resource, perhaps better targeted for our issues than Al-Anon. There are more Al-Anon meetings than CoDA meetings, so you may not find one near you. You also will find that different groups each have their own character, so you may find one is a better fit for you than another.

More importantly... . how did church go for you today?

[formflier]

I noticed that there were more Al Anon groups around that the CoDA. 

Church was fine.  There was a pretty big blowup that morning before we went.  I was prepared and stayed calm through the entire thing.  She didn't cross any boundaries such as making threats... . do this or else... . so I stayed engaged and didn't budget on reality.

My issue out of this that I don't exactly know how I am going to play... . is that she busted both of the deals.  I made a big deal of... . and she acknowledges the busts... . that because I love her and the family that I will hold up my end.

This is as much for the counseling situation as anything else.  I think things are becoming clear to marriage counselor.  At next meeting when I have completed all my assignments and "deals"... . and uBPDw is left making claims and excuses why her part didn't happen... . pretty sure she will say her actions will be my fault... . like other times...

The counselor had told both of us that if "individual mental health issues" were getting in the way... . that she would bring that up to both of us at the appropriate time.

Do I think this will fix everything... no... . but I kind of see this as calmly and methodically building a box around the situation so that the only reasonable explanation... . and the only reasonable thing that hasn't been done is for my uBPDw to deal with her emotional outbursts.


Hope everyone else had a good Easter.

By the middle of the afternoon everything was "normal" at my house and we had a really good time together.

CoDA (CoDependents Anonymous) is also a good resource, perhaps better targeted for our issues than Al-Anon. There are more Al-Anon meetings than CoDA meetings, so you may not find one near you. You also will find that different groups each have their own character, so you may find one is a better fit for you than another.

More importantly... . how did church go for you today?

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds like a little bit of progress for you. 

Your comment about her "busting deals" just reminds me what these "deals" were.

They pronouncements she made. Not something you negotiated with her.

Your counselor may see what is happening... . and may try to work on your wife's individual MH issues. Don't count on fast progress by your wife coming out of this, though. A more common outcome of this seen on these boards would be your wife painting the counselor black and refusing to go back or not cooperating.

I'm guessing that it is important to you that you go to church with your children (at least half of the time). If so, time for you to figure out how to make this happen.

We have two tools here for you to consider. First is enforcing a boundary--telling your wife that your children are going to church with you, and she is free to come if she wishes. This is simple, if you can make it work.

The second is actually negotiating your wife's cooperation using DEARMAN. This not a guaranteed success, as she may choose not to cooperate.

[formflier]

The two deals she busted were actually negotiated.

Sorry... probably didn't make that very clear.

1.  I add her to car titles (so they will be joint) and she agrees to not textbomb me anymore.  She can still text about picking up 2 milks, eggs, cheese... . basically no relationship issues via text.  She has sent 1 text where she brought up one of the "whores" names.  I could have been innocent... . but I doubt it.  However... . 1 week and no textbombs.  A textbomb would be "you are lousy father"... . and other pronouncements and theories.

2. She takes kids to Indiana and in exchange agrees to set aside conflict on Sunday's and focus on worship.  Kinda vague... . but no arguing... loud voices... . bringing up issues.  She was all dysregulated this past Sunday morning.  Stress from getting Easter meal together I would guess.  Mornings are usually bad for her.  Anyway... she has blown that once.  Church was fine afterwards.

She painted last counselor black and walked out.  All of the issues she hid behind with last one are fixed in this one (distance being the big one).  If she walks out on another counselor... . I will need to enforce some kind of boundary or consequence.  She has agreed to go and stay if it gets tough... . claimed the last one was due to distance... not because she was getting called out.

She left on trip this morning... . very happy... . it was a good send off.

Sounds like a little bit of progress for you. 

Your comment about her "busting deals" just reminds me what these "deals" were.

They pronouncements she made. Not something you negotiated with her.

Your counselor may see what is happening... . and may try to work on your wife's individual MH issues. Don't count on fast progress by your wife coming out of this, though. A more common outcome of this seen on these boards would be your wife painting the counselor black and refusing to go back or not cooperating.

I'm guessing that it is important to you that you go to church with your children (at least half of the time). If so, time for you to figure out how to make this happen.

We have two tools here for you to consider. First is enforcing a boundary--telling your wife that your children are going to church with you, and she is free to come if she wishes. This is simple, if you can make it work.

The second is actually negotiating your wife's cooperation using DEARMAN. This not a guaranteed success, as she may choose not to cooperate.

[Grey Kitty]

Interesting deals.

In both of them, you take a simple discrete action (which you can't really undo), and she changes a difficult behavior pattern of hers, presumably forever.

It sounds like she at least tried on both of them but slipped up. Do you think she will continue to try and at least reduce it?

[formflier]

On the texting... . I think she will... . or if she caves in on it... it will mean a shift for her.

Somehow the car title thing became a big deal to her after 19 years of marriage... . and I think I shocked her by agreeing to it... . without the requirement for a "conversation" about what it means... pluses and minuses of the way it is now... etc etc.  So... she would completely loose face with this counselor if she blatantly busted it... . such as texting "you are a lousy"... . "enjoy the whore"... . etc etc

It has been great not to have to read the texts.  I didn't respond to them... but still... it was hard to see.

On the Sunday thing... . who knows.  If faced with a choice or time limitation at my next counseling... I will focus more on the Sunday slip up than a vague text.

Fingers crossed... .

Interesting deals.

In both of them, you take a simple discrete action (which you can't really undo), and she changes a difficult behavior pattern of hers, presumably forever.

It sounds like she at least tried on both of them but slipped up. Do you think she will continue to try and at least reduce it?