Update on parenting coordinator rejection by exH

[livednlearned]

I keep going back and forth on this.  I just have to set a deadline and decide.  It isn't easy.  I know it seems like it should be a no brainer, but there are nuances to every situation, and consequences.

Also, contrary to what someone said, my xH actually does try to play fair if I beg and beg him for something.  So I guess a little part of me wants to do the same for him, so that he plays fair later.    But this issue may not be a good one to compromise on.  I don't know.

One of the worst things about codependent thinking is that you become totally, entirely fixated on what the other person is doing. If I do x, then he will do y. If I do y, he will do x. You think you are controlling the other person, but the truth is that the other person is controlling you. There is no nuance to this -- it's a classic, straightforward codependence/BPD dynamic. It's the Big Lesson about dealing with BPD. You break free from codependent thinking when you stop focusing on him, and start focusing on the boundaries. That means looking at the contract he consented to, that the courts signed off on, and sticking to it. Your ex gives you just enough hope that you can't unhook.

This is not easy stuff, momtara. It's the big stuff, the hardest of all. Not the decision about whether to keep the PC or not, but the decision to stand by boundaries. There's more to it than just the boundaries, but sometimes you have to start with boundaries in order to understand the rest of it.

I am just trying to make sure I am making the right decision for everyone.

The best decisions I have ever made with N/BPDx are the ones where he experiences the consequences for his behavior.

[Matt]

Lots of good stuff here - insights that are no doubt benefiting other members who are reading along but not posting on this thread.  

These are really tough issues that most of us go through and struggle with - it took me many years to get to the point of even being able to see this stuff in my own situation, and even longer to learn to deal with it.

Counseling and this community made all the difference for me - I can see things clearly now that I was stuck in before and couldn't see the forest because all the trees got in the way... .

[momtara]

I know I'm pretty codependent.  Yes, I think this discussion is useful on a number of fronts.

More thoughts:  Just doing nothing is kind of what he wants - he won't have to see *any* parenting coordinator for the time being, and he'll like that.

Using the situation as leverage to get another one may be better for the kids.  It's not what I want to do at this point because it means money and it means I have to deal with his dysregulation more, but it's something that at least would have another professional involved without it being a court, a laywer, or a child services person.  So on that front, switching would mean more help coming our way even for a short while.  It's just more professionals seeing his dysfunction (maybe).

Just more thoughts as my decision gets closer. 

[Matt]

One of the big issues we all face is, is there something I can do that will "fix" the other person, or at least help them get help.

Here's my experience on that... .

10 years of marriage ended in mild violence - my wife swung my guitar at my head, but she missed.  Oh and she threw an iron at me, but missed that time too.  Both with the kids around.  Then she called 911 and accused me of assault - we both went to jail - and that was when I got a clue.

We separated but a few months later she proposed counseling and I agreed.  I still wanted to fix the marriage, for the kids.  My thinking was, maybe a counselor could get us onto a healing path.

The first counselor we tried was ineffective and we gave up.  Then my wife - our divorce was on hold at that point - suggested a counselor who worked with the church my wife went to, and I said fine - anybody who has professional credentials.

This lady was very good and insightful.  At our first meeting, she asked us to meet with her individually, and when I met with her, she pulled out a copy of the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, or something like that), and read to me the part about BPD.   She said, "I'm not qualified to diagnose Mrs. Matt, but she seems to have most of the criteria for BPD.  So you should read 'Stop Walking On Eggshells' and learn about the disorder.", which I did - and that's how I found this community.

Later, we gave up on counseling again, and finished the divorce, and we got a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered the MMPI-2 - objective psych evals - to both of us.  He diagnosed her with BPD and other stuff, and recommended psychotherapy, and that was put into our settlement, which my wife agreed to, and which became a court order.

Flash forward 5 years.  My ex still hasn't acknowledged that she has any psych problems, or gotten therapy, even though if we went back to court that could mean she would lose 50/50 custody of the kids.  She is still depressed and living a pretty sad life compared with what someone of her intelligence and education could have.  Her disorder impacts the kids - they're doing fine but they have to deal with the same kind of BPD stuff we all have experienced.

So my point is... . an intelligent, educated woman who had everything she said she wanted - the husband she wanted, the kids, the career, nice house, some money in the bank, etc. - pretty much gave it all up, and risked even bigger losses, rather than accept that she has a problem and needs help.  Even when it became a court order - and she is in the legal profession, and views judges and the court system as almost holy - but when the court came up against her disorder, she chose the disorder.

We see this again and again - not all, but almost all of our members - very few of the people we know with BPD ever make the choice to get the help they need, and stay with it.  The disorder usually wins, even when there are big consequences and even when getting help would be easy.  (It would not have cost my ex a penny, for example.)

So... . if you make decisions based on what will help the person with BPD - what will encourage him to act right, or what will give him a way to move forward - it may be a kind gesture, but usually it just doesn't work.

[momtara]

I know.  That's a lot of good insight and I'm glad to hear your story.  But that's kind of what I'm saying - sticking to the order and sticking with our current PC, which everyone recommends, is also going to end up being what he wants because he just won't go.  If I use this as leverage to get another professional involved, he may go and it will benefit the kids because that's one more person watching and one more who can testify.  I'm realizing that maybe telling him we're just sticking with this one is not as bold as I thought, because he just won't go anymore.  

My exH *is* getting regular therapy, has acknowledge his mental illness.  I went to see his shrink with him at one point and he acknowledged it to the shrink.  He is still manipulative and dysregulated when triggered, and says things that aren't true.  Sometimes he believes them.  Our PC sees all this.

Yeah, I know I am close to the situation (just got divorced a few months ago) so I am still codependent and probably partly in the FOG.  Ultimately I am here to get perspective and I have gotten some good perspective.  In the end, I want to do not the easy thing, but the thing that helps the kids most.  I don't always know what that is.  

Getting another PC involved may help because it's another professional I could call on in teh future in a court situation or other situation.  Or just someone to give more perspective.  Or... . it may just not do either and waste money.  I just don't know.

The current one has given me a lot of what I want already - talked to our professionals, gave us perspective on the kids, gave recommendations, knows my exH makes up things, talked to his therapist.  I could walk away satisfied that we at least got something good out of it.  But I have to figure out if another PC would also help.

[livednlearned]

sticking to the order and sticking with our current PC, which everyone recommends, is also going to end up being what he wants because he just won't go.  

Maybe your ex is different, but in my experience with N/BPDx, the problem is that he only wants what I don't want. No matter what that is. Even if what I want benefits N/BPDx, he won't want it because I do. That's the carnival ride most of us are on when we arrive here. That BPD tendency -- obstructing abc because it's something you want -- it's the most predictably unpredictable feature of BPD.

I don't know that there is a right answer for you with this PC, mainly because you can't predict the future. There's no way to answer this, not given what you are most concerned about. But if you do decide to get a new PC, you have seen at least the beginning of the pattern (although, there is a good chance this is a much longer-running pattern... . ) You can't be surprised if he bails on the second PC.

[Waddams]

Honestly, I don't think it will do you a lick of good to change PC's.  You're reacting to his BPD drama/crazy making and trying to soothe him by switching.  Nothing's going to soothe him though.  He'll find something wrong with the next one.  And he'll find something else to make crazy about after that.  It's what BPD's do.

Better to set a boundary for yourself that won't be sucked into the drama anymore.  The current PC sounds like a good, solid pro.  Those are hard to find in high conflict cases.  Your PC is working out for YOU and the kids.  That's all that matters.  Let your BPDxh do what he does, let it not work for him.  It's not your job to fix it for him.  It's his job to get his act together and get with the program of seeing to the best interest of the kids.  Leave it to him.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[momtara]

Thanks to you all for responding to such a long thread.

Question:  Have any of you gotten a PC well after the divorce?  Did you go to court to do it?

Just wondering how hard that is.

I feel like at least I have a little leverage now.  Once we don't have a PC, we are kinda on our own.

[Matt]

Question:  Have any of you gotten a PC well after the divorce?  Did you go to court to do it?

Just wondering how hard that is.

Not exactly.  I asked, as part of our settlement, that the court appoint a "parenting coach" - the normal term was "mediator" but I suggested we look at it as coaching not combat, and that it be a psychologist.  Our Custody Evaluator recommended someone from his office and we both agreed to that.

We had a few meetings and resolved a few issues.

Then about a year later, I needed to move to a different town for work.  I offered to take the kids, and if/when my ex wanted to move, I would pay her moving costs plus some more.  She didn't agree - as LnL said, she was opposing me just to oppose me, since she wasn't working and the move was to a town she had always preferred, closer to her family - so I said, "Let's discuss it with Dr. ParentingCoach." and we did - several sessions - accomplished nothing, although he was a skilled and persistent guy.

I had to bring it to closure - it was time to register the kids for school - so I told her, with Dr. PC there, "Let's agree on this today, or I'll have to file tomorrow for full custody, and I'll be obligated to disclose everything I know which is relevant, and that might lead to criminal charges against you."  She quickly agreed and the problem was solved - not by reason or by negotiation or by Dr. PC's skills, but by what a friend of mine described as "bullying" - giving her a couple of bad choices and letting her choose the least bad.

It's unfortunate but this is the kind of process that tends to work when you're dealing with someone who doesn't think straight.

[livednlearned]

Thanks to you all for responding to such a long thread.

Question:  Have any of you gotten a PC well after the divorce?  Did you go to court to do it?

Just wondering how hard that is.

I feel like at least I have a little leverage now.  Once we don't have a PC, we are kinda on our own.

I am really confused, momtara. You have a court order that says "parties must agree to a PC and stick with it for 6 months."  You already have that. Plus, you have tie-breaker status. Plus, you are the residential parent. Plus, you don't want sole custody. And your ex, by wanting to ditch the current PC, is technically in contempt of court. Doesn't matter whether the language came straight from the two of your, or straight from a judge. It's signed. It's a contract.

What would you gain by having a court assign a PC? You would be going to court to say, "We want a PC." And court would look at your order and say, "Um, you two already have that in the order."

That order that you two consented to has just as much teeth as if a judge said, "Get a PC." Even more so, in some ways, because you two consented to it. It looks even worse to court when two grown adults decided, together, what they want, and then one of them doesn't follow the order.

I think your ex has hooked you pretty good into thinking that he will be reasonable if you can just figure out the right combination of things to appease him.

The only thing you can do is go to the judge with a motion for contempt of court, saying that your ex won't go see the current PC as per the order. Then you have to demonstrate that there are things you cannot do because he won't participate. In my case, the PC got up on the stand, and said, "This guy is impossible. The most impossible, threatening, abusive client I have had and I can't imagine anyone being able to manage him." Then I had to go through all the things I was not able to do for S12 because of N/BPDx obstructing me.

In your case, you already have tie-breaker status. So the judge would want to know why you are insisting on a PC. What decision has ex obstructed? How has it affected the kids?

[Matt]

The only thing you can do is go to the judge with a motion for contempt of court, saying that your ex won't go see the current PC as per the order. Then you have to demonstrate that there are things you cannot do because he won't participate.

Well there is another option - the point of my vague, rambling story... .

You can say to Ex, "We both agreed to this and it was put into the court order so we are both legally obligated to do it.  So I will continue to meet with Ms. PC as planned.  If you don't do what you agreed to do, I will ask the court to have you declared in contempt, and to end your contact with the kids, til you are in compliance."

I would do that face-to-face only with the PC present;  or if he doesn't show up, by e-mail, cc:ing your attorney and his.  Then stop - do nothing and let him decide.  If he mans up and complies with the court order, great.  (Of course he might show up to the meetings and not take part - passive-aggressive - and that might be the best you can get.)  Or if he in fact violates the court order, you have to follow through and inform the court so appropriate action can be taken.  The court is not likely give him severe consequences;  in fact I would be surprised if he will be declared in contempt at first.  It's more likely the judge will say, "You need to comply with this order or I can hold you in contempt."

As to LnL's other question - "Why do you need a PC?" - it's a good one.  I have 50/50 so I believed it would be important to have a rational tie-breaker, and it did help in a few situations.  But if I had tie-breaking authority I think I would tell my ex some times, "I'm going to do X.", and if she disagreed, I would listen to what she says - maybe she would have some good points - but if she didn't persuade me I would thank her for her thoughts and then go ahead and do what I believed best for the kids.  Maybe that's an approach that will work for you... . ?

[livednlearned]

As to LnL's other question - "Why do you need a PC?" - it's a good one.  I have 50/50 so I believed it would be important to have a rational tie-breaker, and it did help in a few situations.  But if I had tie-breaking authority I think I would tell my ex some times, "I'm going to do X.", and if she disagreed, I would listen to what she says - maybe she would have some good points - but if she didn't persuade me I would thank her for her thoughts and then go ahead and do what I believed best for the kids.  Maybe that's an approach that will work for you... . ?

And to clarify... . I understand you want someone monitoring your ex's behavior, and that's totally valid. My point is about PCs and court, how a judge is likely to look at it. Court sees PCs as improving communications between parents, and also as a way of keeping parents out of court (especially if parents are joint legal, no tie-breaker status). PCs are not used to monitor a parent's behavior, that's just something people like us do, usually for documentation, or to get someone on board who could potentially testify. From that perspective, it makes sense why you want a PC, but that probably won't make sense to a court that is a bit tone deaf to issues of mental illness.

The bottom line, too, is that court is not going to care about your ex's behavior unless it has a direct negative impact on the kids. To some extent, like Matt says, court might care that your ex is in non-compliance. (You might ask your lawyer if your court would take away visitation if he is non-compliance with the PC. I don't think that would fly in my court, but every court is different.) In my court, I had to show how N/BPDx's non-compliance with the PC had a negative impact on S12. It certainly helped having a PC feel threatened by N/BPDx, but I was going for sole legal, and had a higher bar to clear.

I bet you're getting sick of all this 

[momtara]

Ha ha, livedandlearned - I'm not sick of your very helpful replies.  I *am* sick of all the tough decisions I have to make that he forces me into.  Ugh.  I have spent hours thinking about this every day.  What a nightmare.  I don't think either option will make a huge difference, just a little one, but every bit helps.  One main thing I have gotten out of my PC is that she has the power to talk to collateral sources.  It's good for me to know what my exH's psych is thinking.  It's good for her to tell his doc what's really going on.  Those are things I can't do myself.

My question was because I feel like in 3 years we'll need a PC when the kids are older.  It's just hard dealing with him sometimes.  That's why I was wondering if people ever get PC's apointed later.  Maybe a mediator would be an option then, although they can't testify if it came to it, so that bothers me.

I also admit that I just hate when he's mad, so yes, having a PC helps me feel stronger when I oppose him.  I have to be careful how I phrase things to him.  I get more that way.  And he still has the kids, even if only a little bit, so I want to make sure he feels included so he is a better parent when with them.  A PC monitoring the situation in 3 years may be useful.

I have a small window to hook him into getting another PC, or to just force him to stick with this one, who he won't go to.  I guess I'll try not to catastrophize and realize that it won't be the end of the world either way I go.  But it's still a tough decision and it still could have implications, even small.  `

[Matt]

As the kids get older, what may be more important than a PC is that they have their own counselor - not somebody to fix their dad, but somebody to help the kids learn how to cope with a dad who has the issues he has.

Another aspect of "Focus on the kids not on the ex!"... .

[livednlearned]

Ha ha, livedandlearned - I'm not sick of your very helpful replies.  I *am* sick of all the tough decisions I have to make that he forces me into.  Ugh.  I have spent hours thinking about this every day.  What a nightmare.  I don't think either option will make a huge difference, just a little one, but every bit helps.  One main thing I have gotten out of my PC is that she has the power to talk to collateral sources.  It's good for me to know what my exH's psych is thinking.  It's good for her to tell his doc what's really going on.  Those are things I can't do myself.

My question was because I feel like in 3 years we'll need a PC when the kids are older.  It's just hard dealing with him sometimes.  That's why I was wondering if people ever get PC's apointed later.  Maybe a mediator would be an option then, although they can't testify if it came to it, so that bothers me.

I also admit that I just hate when he's mad, so yes, having a PC helps me feel stronger when I oppose him.  I have to be careful how I phrase things to him.  I get more that way.  And he still has the kids, even if only a little bit, so I want to make sure he feels included so he is a better parent when with them.  A PC monitoring the situation in 3 years may be useful.

I have a small window to hook him into getting another PC, or to just force him to stick with this one, who he won't go to.  I guess I'll try not to catastrophize and realize that it won't be the end of the world either way I go.  But it's still a tough decision and it still could have implications, even small.  `

I get the part where you find that the PC helps. I understand it feels better having someone else involved. I guess the part that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is your belief that your ex will cooperate. A lot of pwBPD have incredibly high thresholds for defying authority and aren't too swayed by consequences. Your ex already showed you he doesn't follow the court order. And you mentioned you are struggling financially -- $7K is a lot of money to monitor your ex without having a clear idea about what your legal goals are.

The only way I could justify spending that kind of money is if I knew it would lead to a very clear outcome in court. If your goal was to get full custody -- primary physical, sole legal, and supervised visitation, then maybe it would be worth it. Otherwise, you end up paying a lot of money to get yoked around, and things don't improve. You might get some support and direction (which you could also get from a T), but you also risk ending up paying for a PC your ex won't see.

Why not take the route Matt recommends, and get a custody evaluation? Bring in the pros to evaluate things. Now you have a PC and your ex's T seeing things the way you see them. As your PC what his/her professional opinion is about your ex's ability to care for the kids when he moves out on his own. What custody recommendation would they make?

What I found is that the more people who got involved in my case, the more I realized how much FOG was clouding my judgment. When I saw N/BPDx through their eyes, it was so clear that he was seriously unstable. The judge, my lawyer, ex's old lawyer, the PC, my T, S12's T -- everyone saw that N/BPDx was in no way fit to parent. If you order a CE, the evaluators  might discover the same thing, and you'll hear from people who are trained to evaluate custody. They might come back and say, "No way should this guy be supervising the kids without someone else around." It's very unlikely that a CE would suggest rolling back the current custody order. To do that, they would have to discover that you are in some way unfit.

Also, another reason you might want a full CE is that they can make custody recommendations, whereas that's not how it works with a psych eval. If you just ask for a psych eval for your ex, you have some extra work to convince court that those issues impair his parenting. You'll need clear documentation, with clear examples of what he did to put the kids in harm. And you'll need an expert witness to say why BPD impacts the kids in bad ways.

[david]

My ex ran away in summer of 2007. In and out of court several times after that. In 2010 ex had me charged with misdemeanor assault. I was convicted of summary offense disorderly conduct. I did nothing wrong but the false allegations put me in a jam. At that time the court ordered a pc for a year. All communication was through email. You had to send an email to the pc and ex stating the issue, the facts as you see it, and what I want the pc to do. Then the other party had to send an email in the same format. The pc then made a ruling. For the most part it kept ex in check. In my opinion it started off okay but eventually ex was able to get some things she wanted because the pc just got tired of hearing the same complaints from ex over and over. I live in Pa. The state supreme court made a ruling in 2011 that pc's can not be used anymore and only a judge can change a custody order in any way. Of course, so can parents if they agree. So all the changes the pc made are now null and void.                                                                Ex actually wanted a pc in 2012 again because I said no to something she wanted which made no sense to me. Back then she used to try to change the court order by changing pick up times by an hour or something else like that. It was trivial and really didn't have any good reason. She was sending several emails on a weekly basis with proposed changes so I simply said no. She threatened to take me back to court if I didn't agree. I stopped replying. I don't know if she talked to her atty or not but she stopped trying to make changes.

Perhaps you can talk to your current pc and tell her what is going on. Explain you have an court order that you want to follow and ex is refusing. Your pc might have a suggestion as to what you can do in your county. It might be best for you to go to a meeting and let the pc to contact ex. This might help if you go to court. Also the pc may be able to get ex to cooperate better than you can.                                                                                                                                   My ex disagrees with everything I suggest just because I suggest it. I was able to get our school to see this and we worked around ex. We, the school and I, would have a meeting and we would come to a decision. I then had the school contact ex with the decision and ex always agreed. As long as I was not part of the decision, in ex's eyes, everything worked fine. The principal actually called me when I first figured this out. He thought I made no sense and I simply asked him to try it out. It worked and nothing worked before. He called me again and said he still didn't understand what was going on but things were working better for our S8, now S10, and that was our plan from then on.

I no longer wish/hope ex gets it and changes her dysfunctional ways. It is what it is and I just have to figure out how to deal with it and and how to help our two boys deal with it. When they get older I suspect they will deal with it the same way their stepbrothers learned to deal with it when they got older: one is total NC and another is very limited LC. I get along with both of them very well. I've been told by several people that know ex that her son that is NC is, in ex's view, a complete ___hole and his fiance is a big b**** and the son that is LC is a big disappointment to her. If our two boys went NC and LC with me I would start thinking about what I did to cause it. I am very different than my ex and that is why we are no longer married. Like Matt said she chose the disorder.

[ForeverDad]

Also, contrary to what someone said, my xH actually does try to play fair if I beg and beg him for something.  So I guess a little part of me wants to do the same for him, so that he plays fair later.    But this issue may not be a good one to compromise on.  I don't know.

While knowing the common patterns is helpful, sincere 'reciprocity' is atypical in our type of situation.  Maybe he is, as some have phrased it, BPD-lite, but you can't rely on it and it could very easily turn out to work against you.  And begging, well, that can be interpreted as an invitation to the other to feel in control.  Easy for it to backfire.

One of the worst things about codependent thinking is that you become totally, entirely fixated on what the other person is doing. If I do x, then he will do y. If I do y, he will do x. You think you are controlling the other person, but the truth is that the other person is controlling you. There is no nuance to this -- it's a classic, straightforward codependence/BPD dynamic. It's the Big Lesson about dealing with BPD. You break free from codependent thinking when you stop focusing on him, and start focusing on the boundaries. That means looking at the contract he consented to, that the courts signed off on, and sticking to it. Your ex gives you just enough hope that you can't unhook.

This is not easy stuff, momtara. It's the big stuff, the hardest of all. Not the decision about whether to keep the PC or not, but the decision to stand by boundaries. There's more to it than just the boundaries, but sometimes you have to start with boundaries in order to understand the rest of it.

When I read this, I was reminded of a comment others have made here:  Don't let the ex rent space in your head and especially not free rent.

I am just trying to make sure I am making the right decision for everyone.

The best decisions I have ever made with N/BPDx are the ones where he experiences the consequences for his behavior.

Consequences - a part of life and especially adult life.  The ex may not change when facing consequences but when so little does have an effect, it's one of the few tools we have to obtain at least partial results.

We see this again and again - not all, but almost all of our members - very few of the people we know with BPD ever make the choice to get the help they need, and stay with it.  The disorder usually wins, even when there are big consequences and even when getting help would be easy.  (It would not have cost my ex a penny, for example.)

So... . if you make decisions based on what will help the person with BPD - what will encourage him to act right, or what will give him a way to move forward - it may be a kind gesture, but usually it just doesn't work.

It has been said that BPD does have therapy options such as DBT, CBT, etc but the majority of those reaching us here seem to have reached a point - or have such stubborn cases - that relatively few report success in recovery.  Perhaps a lot of the mild cases never became so bad that people found their way here?  I like to think that out there in the entire population that a higher percentage do chip away at their Denial, seek meaningful therapy and make real improvement.  But here we have to deal with whatever we face.

[Matt]

Consequences - a part of life and especially adult life.

Kids need clear consequences, directly tied to what they did, to teach them that some behaviors are not OK.

Most of us, as adults, learn to do what's right without consequences or threats.  For example, we don't have to be told, "Get to work on time or you'll be fired." - we know that showing up on time is important and if we're late once in a while maybe nobody even says anything.

But someone with BPD has all sorts of problems thinking clearly.  (That can be tough to understand because it's so alien to us - we just can't accept that somebody could go through life acting like that!)

So they may not act right unless they experience some big consequences tied directly to their actions.

[momtara]

Thanks.  David's story made me think of something.  Most of the PC's I interviewed *do* like to work by email.  Our current one does not.  She wants emails to be very short, and anything major, we go in to deal with.  The next one could want to deal with email and not really much else.  And may not be doing what I need, since we're not making any big decisions over the next few months but I do want someone to monitor the situation.  Hmmm, all of these stories are making me consider various points, which is helpful.  I am trying to figure out objectively the right thing, the thing that will help us most, even if it costs $$$.  (And NO I am not getting the $7K one, I'd be getting an inexpensive one I know about who seemed good.)

David's story about having the school contact ex directly about certain things is pretty useful for the future. 

[livednlearned]

David's story about having the school contact ex directly about certain things is pretty useful for the future.  

The bigger lesson in David's example is that he doesn't engage. He isn't trying to get his ex to cooperate because he knows she can't (either at all, or inconsistently, it doesn't matter).

Getting to detachment is a process, and you might not be there yet -- everyone gets there on their own time. You probably won't find a more understanding group of people than the ones on this board. During my marriage, I cleaned up my ex's feces after he pooped all over our bedroom during one of his alcoholic binges. Then he yelled at me. We all have our codependent low moments, and that's definitely mine. It took me over two years after that incident to get to detachment.

The important thing is to be honest with yourself. If you get a new PC, be honest that you are appeasing your ex and accommodating him -- it doesn't matter why. There are a lot of rationalizations that fuel codependent behavior. In grown up land, people don't get to behave the way he does, especially when court is involved and custody is at stake. The only reason he gets away acting like this is because someone lets him. If he bails on the next PC, then you take a look in the mirror and say, "I am part of this dynamic." And you look at your role, and figure out whether you want to live like this.

The only thing at stake in deciding whether to get a new PC is you. 

[david]

I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and put in prison for two weeks. One of my SS's dropped off personal belongings, laundry detergent, clothes, toothpaste, etc. If you don't get any you have to wait a month to be declared indigent and then it will be given to you. He also picked me up when I got out. That experience got the last remants in my head that coparenting was ever possible. I purchased a video and an audio recorder the next day. I never leave home without them. Detachment is a process liked lnl said.

[momtara]

At least one person said if we go with a new PC, it could backfire.  Do you think this is true?  How?

It occurred to me that my exH said he'd get me a list of potential new PC's, but he has not.  He sent me the one person who is $7,000 and who would do the same things our current one does.  ExH says current one 'overstepped her bounds' but I know that new one would do the same types of things.

I left a message for our existing one informing her of what exH said.  I am curious if she has any thoughts.  A few of the other PC's I interviewed have told me that they will only work by court order, because otherwise, one party tends to try to get out of the arrangement if they are unhappy with some of the decisions.  So this happens often.

I will tell exH of my decision in the next day or so.  I'm sure I'll get lots of calls and texts at work in response.  I can't stand that.  I will discuss with him, because he usually does that with me, although not always in the best way.

Ultimately my bigger issue is not what happens right now, when the kids are small.  My big worry is how the dynamic will change as the kids get older, but I guess I have to stop worrying about so far into the future.  I keep having to make tough decisions and I hate it.  The divorce was one, decisions of whether to go to court for custody evaluations when things come up, all of these things are terrifying to me.  I ask myself whether I am doing the best thing for the kids - often time proves that I did, but the answers aren't always clear.  I ask whether I'm wimping out or appropriately compromising; whether I'm exacerbating a situation or placating too much, choosing one course because of money (trying not to ever do that)... . I take weeks to analyze my decisions, consult experts, and still never know.  There were a few times I did see a therapist early on, and even consulted Bill Eddy at one point, and both of them validated my choices... . but therapists don't know every answer either. 

[Grey Kitty]

momtara, I'm looking at the big picture for you, and I think it comes down to this:

Do you believe your ex will act in the best interest of your children consistently?

If not on his own, what will it take?

Do you need it to be ordered by a court or taken out of his hands by a court?

Or do you think you can convince him to do the right thing without needing that?

And how much does it cost you (emotionally) to handle him this way (lots of calls & txts at work, etc.)?

As for how it would backfire? Mostly by teaching your ex that he can get you to spend $$$ when he is unhappy about the results and throws a fit and offers this sort of solution. If he thinks this works, he'll keep doing it!

[Matt]

I'm sure I'll get lots of calls and texts at work in response.  I can't stand that.  I will discuss with him, because he usually does that with me, although not always in the best way.

Seems like a reasonable boundary - "If you text or call me at work I won't respond to that.  If something is important send me an e-mail and I will respond when I can."

E-mails are better because they leave a record, and because you can look at it and decide if and when and how to respond.

More and more, I've learned not to respond to everything I get from my ex, and as the result, she has learned not to contact me unless it is something appropriate.  It's a big change from when we were married and I was still trying to make her happy and make the relationship work... .

[momtara]

So I sent a very carefully worded, fact based email to exH saying I would be going to the next PC appointment, and several other things.  I was terrified he'd bombard me with angry emails and texts all night, so I went as far as wrapping my phone in paper towels and putting it in my purse.  (I turned the ringer off, but sometimes it buzzes anyway and I'm not always technically competent enough to figure out how to do all that).

It was quiet.  Too quite.  He didn't even call the kids like he usually does.

So I checked email.  Got a one line response:  "When is the appointment?"

This is after weeks of him demanding that I cancel it and fire our PC. 

One of two things is possible.  One, the PC has since contacted his T, so maybe the T thinks he should stick with our PC now.

Two, my exH still wants to win me back.  So he does what it takes (sometimes) to make me think he is all better and changed.  THis may be part of that.

This makes me nervous, because someday if he thinks he is not coming back, he could really get agitated.  I can't really control that, although I do try my best to protect the kids in cases where something has outraged him.

I might not have minded going with a new PC, but it also might have been a waste.  So thusfar, no drama.

Thanks for all y'all's help.  I guess it worked!  (Sorta)

[Matt]

How will you answer his question?

[momtara]

Just tell him the date and time.

Why?

[Matt]

Just tell him the date and time.

Why?

Just wondering - keeping it simple is best!

[ForeverDad]

So I sent a very carefully worded, fact based email to exH saying I would be going to the next PC appointment, and several other things... .

It was quiet.  Too quiet.  He didn't even call the kids like he usually does.

So I checked email.  Got a one line response:  "When is the appointment?"

This is after weeks of him demanding that I cancel it and fire our PC.

You set a firm boundary.  He realized his bluff and bluster didn't work and quietly retreated.  See the value of boundaries?  If you would have caved you would have spent money and shown weakness that would have been used against you again and again.

Oh, and see how simple that was?  A week of worry and equivocation and one firm email stymied him.  Of course, there will be more obstructions and emotional pressuring later on, but the difference now is that you know you can make a stand and have it work!

I turned the ringer off, but sometimes it buzzes anyway and I'm not always technically competent enough to figure out how to do all that.

I have an Android phone and the rigner is turned off by reducing the volume all the way.  However, one level above 'off' is the vibrate mode.  Your phone may be different.  Ask a friend to help show you how to figure it out.  Friends love to help.

[momtara]

Thanks, all.

He sent me a new email saying "You know I can't go that late."

I'm not going to respond, because it will end up in a back and forth.  We agreed on that time.  If he doesn't go, he doesn't go.  I'm going.

I think part of the reason I hedged is that it's possible we'd end up with an even better coordinator if we do it the right way - if I say to him, okay, let's get a new one, but we have to have the person appointed by the court, etc. 

That might have worked.  It also might have taken months of him rejecting everyone, or giving me people who would be worse, not better. 

If he doesn't show up, I can always point out to him that he stopped coming, and push for a PC later. 

I still can't get past my regret of not getting a psych and custody eval to begin with, which at least would have given me information on how to proceed.  Early in the game, I just didn't understand everything, and it might have made things harder.  I got almost all the parenting time, so maybe it doesn't matter.  It's really hard to know.  The good thing about the existing PC is that she made contact with exH's shrink, which is what I really wanted.