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Author Topic: BPD or just a jerk?  (Read 12094 times)
sirensong65
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2014, 09:23:59 PM »

A.G. I am word for word what your last post describes.  My friends are telling me to snap the hell out of it... . if they looked they way I do they would be out with a different guy every night.  But I don't and can't think like that.  I work out 6 days a week, size two blonde... I feel good about how I look to myself but can't fathom others seeing me this way. I feel confident in the house but self conscious when I leave the house.

I had a date a few months ago and when he leaned in to kiss my cheek, I did the damn Matrix move to get away from him, jumoed in the car and by the time I got home, I was covered in hives and having a panic attack. HE used to have panic and anxiety attacks... not me.  Now, if a  man shows me attention, I get panic attacks.  My stomach hurts so severely and I just want to unzip my skin and run.

I'm hanging out and attending events with a group of people, no dates.  I have no desire and frankly I get teary just typing this but I am terrified of men.  I just don't trust anymore.
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cosmonaut
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2014, 09:27:09 PM »

One thing we disagree on is that they cannot help it but run. I believe they can but just don't try hard enough.

I very much disagree, AG.

By your same reasoning, would you tell someone with PTDS that they need to just try harder to not have panic attacks?  Would you tell someone with schizophrenia that they need to just try harder to not have hallucinations?  Would you tell someone with major depression they need to just try harder to not feel so down?  If not, why is BPD different?  

People with BPD run because that's what their disorder compels them to do.  A pwBPD is not a fully developed person.  They have an undeveloped sense of self.  They do not have the same degree of control over their emotions that you may.  You are asking a very fragile, underdeveloped person to exercise the incredible task of overriding what every fiber of their being is telling them to do.  It's like demanding that an untrained, overweight asthmatic run a marathon.  It's not possible without training.  Only with months, even years, of intensive therapy and a lot of hard work practicing will they be in condition to be able to properly regulate their emotions and stop such destructive behaviors as running.

BPD is a widely recognized disorder in psychiatry.  It is a serious mental illness.  It is very real.  I understand the anger you feel toward your ex for being so wronged.  I feel that toward my ex, too.  I am not justifying the behavior.  I think we do need to remember that pwBPD are also victims, however.  They have a very heavy cross to carry in life.  I don't see pwBPD as monsters.  I see them as very tragically damaged and wounded people, and I believe they do deserve some degree of sympathy and compassion for it.
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sirensong65
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2014, 09:35:56 PM »

I will leave it to you, Cosmo to feel bad for them. 

They live their lives without a care, use people, good people.  Expose us to STD's, f_ _ k the world without any concern for feelings.  Lie and cheat to get their selfish needs met.

Mine had the ex before me care for him through heart surgery, support him while she paid for him to get his degree and he re paid her by moving out while she was at work, no note, no nothing.

I helped him revise a resume, get his dream job, helped him through other medical issues, depression, etc.  I created a home for him and a family life of stability, something he told me through weepy eyes he so desperately desired.  He was Fing everything in a 100 mile radius and lying to me about it while I slept blissfully with him unprotected and planned our wedding.  He dumped me for a woman he was screwing at work all while pimping himself on various dating sites too.

Seems to me the live the life of Riley.  They get exactly what they want and feel ZERO remorse for it.  Some cross to bear.
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cosmonaut
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »

I understand, Siren.  I know it is extremely painful.  My ex too has hurt me beyond measure.  Worse than anyone ever has.  I too gave everything I had to my ex, and she left me with nothing.  Not even so much as a glance back.  I really do understand your anger.  I'm sorry if I have upset you.  I know that everyone here is hurt and angry and they have reason to be.  Maybe this is not a good thread to debate the topic, since I know everyone is in pain.
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sirensong65
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2014, 09:59:24 PM »

Oh, no... don't take it that way.  I wish I could be more like you ad show empathy.  That is who I normally am for all others.  But, with this situation, and as raw as I feel these days... I just can't.  Maybe because I AM so soft hearted, it hurts me more to try to understand how anyone could treat people this way.  Especially someone who treated you so well.  I just adored him. To the outside world we were to be envied.  I thought after a bad marriage, cancer, childhood trauma, this was my reward... . God had brought a man worth waiting for and worth all the suffering in my past.  I told him all the time I felt so blessed to have him in my life.  We never fought, we were best friends (I thought), then it all started to change and rapidly.  So fast in fact I think I went into shock... . I couldn't comprehend what was happening.

I am better than I was 6 months ago.  My pain and anguish has turned to anger.  But my house is once again spotless, I am living healthy and not drinking to excess.  I cook again for my children and engage again where I used to come home and disappear into my bedroom... I wanted to sleep my life away.

I hope to one day be a bigger person and have empathy and/or forgive him.  But for now, I just can't.
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cosmonaut
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2014, 10:19:06 PM »

You know, I felt exactly the same way when I first started dating my ex: I felt like God had answered my prayers.  Like everything I'd endured in life had been so that it could to lead me to her.  It felt like the greatest blessing I'd ever known.  It was almost sacred in how consecrated it felt.

I think you are really on to something about feeling so incredibly hurt because of how soft hearted you are.  When we let someone in, I mean really into our innermost sanctum we are exposing ourselves in the most vulnerable way imaginable, but also the most loving and intimate.  I think it really does take a very gentle heart to allow that with someone you truly love.  If our partner then wounds us after we have dropped all of our defenses for them and exposed our bare soul to them, well the damage is catastrophic.  I don't know that you could ever more deeply hurt someone.  I know, because I felt that too.  I admire your soft heartedness, Siren - it is beautiful and precious.  All of my favorite people have very tender hearts.  Hold on to that and celebrate it.  It is a wonderful virtue.   

I think you are a bigger person that you think, and I suspect that you have deep wells of empathy.  I think that is a common trait here, and one that was also very much picked up on by our exes.  I think they were very drawn to it.  That's something we can be proud of, too.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2014, 10:45:04 PM »

One thing we disagree on is that they cannot help it but run. I believe they can but just don't try hard enough.

I very much disagree, AG.

By your same reasoning, would you tell someone with PTDS that they need to just try harder to not have panic attacks?  Would you tell someone with schizophrenia that they need to just try harder to not have hallucinations?  Would you tell someone with major depression they need to just try harder to not feel so down?  If not, why is BPD different?  

People with BPD run because that's what their disorder compels them to do.  A pwBPD is not a fully developed person.  They have an undeveloped sense of self.  They do not have the same degree of control over their emotions that you may.  You are asking a very fragile, underdeveloped person to exercise the incredible task of overriding what every fiber of their being is telling them to do.  It's like demanding that an untrained, overweight asthmatic run a marathon.  It's not possible without training.  Only with months, even years, of intensive therapy and a lot of hard work practicing will they be in condition to be able to properly regulate their emotions and stop such destructive behaviors as running.

BPD is a widely recognized disorder in psychiatry.  It is a serious mental illness.  It is very real.  I understand the anger you feel toward your ex for being so wronged.  I feel that toward my ex, too.  I am not justifying the behavior.  I think we do need to remember that pwBPD are also victims, however.  They have a very heavy cross to carry in life.  I don't see pwBPD as monsters.  I see them as very tragically damaged and wounded people, and I believe they do deserve some degree of sympathy and compassion for it.

Cosmo I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am in no way shape or form saying that they just stop the behavior all together. Of course I would not ask a person with Major depression to just stop being depressed. I have PTSD right now as well all do who have dealt with people with BPD. However there is no obstruction in the brain like there is in skitzo. I am not down playing they're pain or weight they carry at all. As a matter of fact when you stay with them for long periods of time and they leave you that overwhelming anxiety that we all feel is very similar if not equal to what they feel. I've felt it. I've felt tender to the touch in a work environment of basically construction workers. Constant locker room style jokes that I used to be able to handle and joke back with that cut like razor blades at this point now on my soul leaving me defenseless against something that is not even meant to hurt me. Any and everything said to me can hurt and devalue me at this point. My childhood was far worse then hers was. Do you know what BPD is? It is a learned behavioral pattern. There is no obstruction in the brain preventing them from not treating people like crap. Do you know that alcoholism is also supposed to be treated as a disorder or illness? Do you know that some of the therapy for BPD is taken right from AA. Do you know what one of the doctors said to my BPD ex. They said it's not your fault you have a chemical imbalance but you do have a choice. Do you know that when your happy a chemical is released? When your sad a chemical is released and when your angry a chemical is released? There is your chemical imbalance right there. I acknowledge the road is very difficult. I have spoken with a couple of people with BPD on psyche Central who have healed do you know what alot of them said to me? Especially one in particular. She said it is her firm belief that we be held accountable for our actions. Have you read stop walking on egg shells? Some of those techniques are again taken from how a family is suggested to deal with someone who is an alcoholic. The person grabbing that bottle is definitely sick and the road is very hard but there is no obstruction of the brain they are making a choice to drink. BPD is an addiction they are addicted to the behavior and used to it but they are making a choice that is very difficult for them to stop. This is why therapist don't really want to treat it. They are aware of this. I'm no doctor myself but I have so damn much it makes my head spin. Therapist are aware they are making this choice and they do not really accept it as a real illness to be honest. I girl I dated before my ex who I used to keep in touch with while with my BPD ex told me the same thing. She said drop this girl in her profession doctors don't really accept it as a real illness. She pretty much told me that to a borderline it is not they're problem but everyone else's problem. She said they only care about themselves and are very much aware.

The prettier they are or more attractive they are makes it even worse because we live in a society that women can pretty much look good and get what they want still despite bad behavior. My ex is not an extremely attractive one shes not ugly either but if she were drop dead gorgeous the behavior would be even worse. This was the advice she gave me and I foolishly just brushed it off thinking the same thing your thinking. I even thought she was just telling me that because she was jealous of her because she was with me and I wasn't with her. I had lots of sympathy and leaned towards feeling compassion for 3 years. I too said she cannot control herself and she was not deliberately doing evil things however I have caught her red handed with premeditated action and so have many others on here.    

So can an obese person run a marathon? No absolutely not. Can an obese person start walking each day though and slowly work up to power walking and then jogging and then running? Yes.

I do not doubt the difficulty as I have difficulty myself getting better. However I try bit by bit. Look on the boards and tell me how many of them do you see even trying?  To be honest I even told my BPD ex I would stand by her side and withstand as much as I could If I saw her even trying. How many of them read even one page of a book. Maybe reading a book is too much of a peak inside of themselves and its horrifying. How about a page per day? How about a page per week? They can't control raging ok. How about trying to work on an apology. Maybe a full apology is too much so how about toning that down and working on just saying one word just sorry with no sentence before it. It's not the difficulty of it I have a problem with or don't acknowledge. It is just saying no I will do nothing and everyone needs to do it for me.  They don't want to go to therapy. They see the path of destruction they have created and do not work towards it. I speak for most not all. I tip my hat to any that have made progress. Let me ask you a question. What if I was an alcoholic and I was internally sick one night I was driving drunk and killed one of your kids with the car. The doctors diagnosed me with alcohol disorder. I knew I left a path of destruction but I had a label now for it and in the form of a disorder. The path is hard for me Im in pain extreme pain. I was sorry for killing your kid but I have a disorder remember? I get behind the wheel again one night and I kill someone else while drunk. They let me go though because I have a disorder. This is all hypothetical obviously you know you kill someone while drunk you go to jail but do you get where Im getting at?

Once I've left that path of destruction and I know I have it is now up to me to make the steps to not do it again bit by bit. Is it not? Or should we just keep saying it is a disorder so let it be. Yes it's hard hell its hard for me to heal my own wounds and the path of destruction I left for myself by letting this evil person in. I get my part in it but we cannot excuse them or pardon them. If they can't run then crawl. If they cant crawl then squirm around forward first. Most of them do nothing of the such. That's my problem with them. Trust me I definitely still do have empathy for them but I need to definitely learn to redirect that empathy back towards myself. F*** empathy for them they get it on mass quantities from all that parasite behavior. We need to empathize with ourselves
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Narellan
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2014, 10:50:45 PM »

AG our stories have lots of similarities. Initially I was my exBPDs model ( he's a professional photographer). He took hundreds of beautiful photographs of me. I felt beautiful. In actual fact I am beautiful. ( that's so hard for me to say) I am told frequently I'm stunning/ gorgeous. I think that's a bit over the top, but like you I get approached everywhere I go. Even the last time I was out with him, arms around him kissing him listening to a band, these young (25 yo) guys beckoned me over, I thought i must have known them so over I went. No I didn't know them, they wanted me to ditch the creep I was with and join them! I was gobsmacked. ( I'm 48) I totally adored my exBPD. He in the looks department is quite unattractive. But that's love for you. Totally blind to everyone and everything.

And yes I'm so not interested in being with anyone else. No sex drive either.

I don't go out now I can't bear to be hit on. It's depressing. I'm reasonably happy locking myself up at home now, today I'm still in pjs at 2 pm, and I've made pumpkin soup, bread and cake. I'm feeling pretty content here in my own little world. But some days are still awful and painful. I can feel some progress in myself though now that Ive been away from him for so many weeks. Do you sometimes feel like that?
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2014, 10:50:57 PM »

Btw Please excuse the typos it is very difficult to type from this crappy android
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2014, 10:51:31 PM »

SirenSong I'm not in a forgiving mood either.  I know my BPDxbf had a great deal of awareness about his behaviors.  Yet he put me through the same cycle more than once.  And he takes zero responsibility for his actions.  He can't even break up.  He just acts like such an incredible jerk... . gets so abusive that I leave or hang up the phone and then spins it as "you walked out on me... . that's the worst thing you can do to me... . I'm done".  Blames me for everything when he in fact orchestrated the break up.  I don't have much empathy for him right now.  I can guarantee you he has none for me.  
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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2014, 11:04:37 PM »

Very enlightening thread. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that see this type of personality disorder for what it is. My ex may have caused PTSD in me due to me walking in on her having sex with my daughter's best fried's father in the bed that we shared. I guess she didn't expect that I had forgotten something and returned home from work that day. What disorder did he have to be complicit in that behavior?

If I suffer from PTSD I can point to exactly the traumatic episode that caused it. The cause of BPD is far more mysterious and so is the condition. To compare it to PTSD is almost fair but comparing it to schizophrenia or major depression aren't even close. Those conditions are both medically identifiable. You might as well be comparing it to cancer or diabetes.

PTSD and BPD are diagnosed from behavior patterns. Behavior can be modified. Yes, you have to want and try to modify your behavior. If you are aware that your behavior is harmful to others, as well as yourself, and don't try to modify it then that is a reflection on the person that behaves that way.

I don't know of any behavior modification that helps schizophrenia or major depression. Or cancer.
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AG
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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2014, 11:14:01 PM »

AG our stories have lots of similarities. Initially I was my exBPDs model ( he's a professional photographer). He took hundreds of beautiful photographs of me. I felt beautiful. In actual fact I am beautiful. ( that's so hard for me to say) I am told frequently I'm stunning/ gorgeous. I think that's a bit over the top, but like you I get approached everywhere I go. Even the last time I was out with him, arms around him kissing him listening to a band, these young (25 yo) guys beckoned me over, I thought i must have known them so over I went. No I didn't know them, they wanted me to ditch the creep I was with and join them! I was gobsmacked. ( I'm 48) I totally adored my exBPD. He in the looks department is quite unattractive. But that's love for you. Totally blind to everyone and everything.

And yes I'm so not interested in being with anyone else. No sex drive either.

I don't go out now I can't bear to be hit on. It's depressing. I'm reasonably happy locking myself up at home now, today I'm still in pjs at 2 pm, and I've made pumpkin soup, bread and cake. I'm feeling pretty content here in my own little world. But some days are still awful and painful. I can feel some progress in myself though now that Ive been away from him for so many weeks. Do you sometimes feel like that?

Hell yeah I did until this last time she contacted me. I was starting to plot out things to do alone. I used to write poetry. I also used to rap as well and write songs. I planned on conquering my fear of the water since I drowned and had to be revived when I was a boy. I changed my workout regiment. I started running again and training for what will be my first 5k race. Even Salsa classes was on my list which was very very personal because she made me feel like crap for trying to learn and I ended up not going anymore while with her cuz I was so turned off she just blew her top and accused me of dating wanting to date other women. Which was bullish I an half Puerto Rican and always wanted to learn and since she already was a dancer I thought it would be romantic and a perfect time to learn. Wow Im rambling again bout her Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). But anyhow I now feel like my motivation got sucked out of me. I can say though that I did well at work this month even though I feel like crap again. Plus I kept lifting weights and kept up my diet and running regiment despite my depression. Haven't crossed anything else off the list yet though. I do have some scheduled tattoo work though set for July for a sleeve Ive been plotting out for years. Finally going to start it. Im glad your doing better Narellan Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2014, 11:27:45 PM »

Wow there's lots of good information coming from this thread. Some of the posts talking about chemical imbalance made me think of hormonal imbalance and PMS Smiling (click to insert in post), that is well documented and can cause significant behaviour outbursts. I've seen women have a  total personality change when they have difficulties regulating their hormones. But it is a real imbalance. And so is BPD.

Interestingly I was researching the other day acquired brain injury and PD. I researched this because my ex BPD was almost killed in a car crash 30 years ago. In a coma for months and lost 48% of his brain capacity. So I researched the link and was gobsmacked to read high percentages of ABI people go on to develop a personality disorder. They had even broken down percentages in all the PD's, but borderline was the highest.  My ex had damage to his frontal lobe. Who really knows what goes on in their brains?

Like I said earlier in the thread, Understanding this is a disorder helps me heal. Not getting stuck on what a prick he was helps me to heal.
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2014, 11:41:22 PM »

I thought BPD was in and of itself not a chemical imbalance.  That's why there's no pharmaceutical therapy for it.  By products of anger and depression... . yes.  But not the disorder itself.
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2014, 12:16:10 AM »

If this topic is triggering for anyone please do skip over.  This post will discuss the degree to which pwBPD can change their behavior and it might be upsetting to some members.

I want to first address the claim that BPD has no biochemical basis.  While that was believed at one time, it is now an outdated view and the evidence is increasing clear that BPD has a genetic component.  Please see citations here and here for two examples.  This means that there is an actual biochemical basis for the disorder just as in schizophrenia and major depression.  Of course our genes are always expressed relative to our environment, but this is also clear in other diseases such as major depression.  So, the idea that BPD is completely divorced from other mental illnesses such as major depression and schizophrenia is one that is becoming harder to accept, and one that I feel is wrong.

I understand that you are terribly hurt, AG, and I am very sorry to hear about the PTSD that you suffer from.  I know that all of us here have been through a traumatic experience.  Please understand that I am not trying to take anything away from your suffering or what you have been through.

I am not in any way defending the behavior of pwBPD.  I am stating that they are not able to control that behavior, at least not without a great deal of help in learning the tools to do so.  Even still, there is no cure.  In a way you are right, AG, they are like people who drive drunk in that the actions that they perform are undeniably devastating, and I do not defend their actions.  I think, however, that it is rash to assume that a pwBPD has the ability to actually control their behavior while in the throes of an untreated flare.  These impulsive, destructive behaviors are not some separate aspect of BPD - they are BPD.  It is the manifestation of the disorder.  It is the asthmatic wheezing or the epileptic seizing.  It is the disorder.  This is what BPD is.  The root cause is not entirely clear, but is believed to be a result of an undeveloped sense of self.  We often say here that pwBPD are children trapped in adult bodies, and I think there is some real truth in that.  They aren't fully developed emotionally, no matter how much they appear to be adults on the outside.  And just as little children are not able to fully control their emotions, neither are BPD and this is what manifests itself as the impulsive, destructive behaviors.  Are little children monsters because they throw temper tantrums and act out?  I don't think so, it is a normal stage of development.  Every three year old does this.  Aren't they able to control it, can't you just make children not behave this way? Not really.  Again, every three year old does this.  If someone never matures past this stage, can they really be expected not to throw temper tantrums?  You see, I'm not at all clear that pwBPD are really in control.  I think in more ways than not, they are slaves to their out of control emotions.  They aren't really in the driver's seat.

This might seem very hard to accept, because it is very alien to the reality to which you know.  But this is the world of the pwBPD.  It is a world ruled by emotion.  It is a deeply disordered world.  It is a profoundly serious mental illness.  Does that make them evil for it?  I don't think so, but that of course is a value judgement, and one that each of us must make for ourselves.
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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2014, 12:43:03 AM »

They can control some behavior, to an extent.  When they first meet you, they keep a lot of the anger and manipulation in check.  So they do have some ability to control some of it.

However, yes, it is a disorder.  My exH has every reason to want to get back with me.  He wants to be in our happy home again.  We have 2 small kids.  He has stayed in therapy and tells me every month how much better he's doing.  Yet, I still see the dark side come out.  If he could have his way, he wouldn't act like this.  But more and more, I see it's out of his hands, and that makes me sad.

I think there are two personalities in some of these people, and the good one doesn't understand the bad one, and this causes memory lapses, more manipulation, black/white feelings, etc.  My exH would do and say things that were reprehensible, and when he was unstressed and calm, he would be the model of morality.  In order to accept all he had done, he'd have to hate half of himself.  Who can do that?  Best to blame your spouse, gf, etc.  Best for him to say things like "I never said that."  Because he really can't come to terms with what he said when triggered.

So maybe they are half kind and half jerk.  It is indeed a disorder.  So many people here experience the same things (circular arguments etc.) that it's clear it's an illness.  But how much can they control the behavior?  That's hard to say.

I do think it's important to at least partly hold them responsible for their actions so they don't use the disorder as an excuse.  At the same time, no one would want to be the way they are.  Cheating on someone is jerky.  Needing to cheat with a lot of people in order to not feel abandoned is a psychological issue.

None of this stuff is black and white. 

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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2014, 01:02:30 AM »

Excerpt
We often say here that pwBPD are children trapped in adult bodies, and I think there is some real truth in that.  They aren't fully developed emotionally, no matter how much they appear to be adults on the outside.  And just as little children are not able to fully control their emotions, neither are BPD and this is what manifests itself as the impulsive, destructive behaviors.  Are little children monsters because they throw temper tantrums and act out?  I don't think so, it is a normal stage of development.  Every three year old does this.  Aren't they able to control it, can't you just make children not behave this way? Not really.  Again, every three year old does this.  If someone never matures past this stage, can they really be expected not to throw temper tantrums?

I've had the blessed experience of raising a son who just turned 4 and a daughter who just turned 2, while detaching from their cheating mother whose emotional immaturity reached new lows starting about a year ago. Our son's tantrums are remarkable like their mom's, exhibiting Splitting. He used to respond when we said, " I love you," with "I don't love you." Filter that as, "you're invalidating and not meeting my needs!" It concerned his uBPD mom, too, and I explained it though she never connected the dots to her.

D2 is stoic like me. Her tantrums are largely passive aggressive. Not loud like her brother's. She just stops. Collapses on the floor, or in my arms, quite funny in fact. In this, due to likely BPD FIL (and possibly his mother, based on the stories I heard), uBPD older brother of my Ex (I don't have to be in a r/s with him to see it, and his obvious love addiction, anger/deoression issues even drive my uBPDx nuts), and her younger sister showing some traits, I do believe that there may be a genetic component to it. All the same, the three youngest siblings seem ok. But the three eldest experienced the worst of the cheating and beating of their mom by uBPD dad, as well as his abandonment when he left their home country for a few years.

So what came first, the chicken or the egg? There is debate about this, and it probably isn't a question so simple to answer. That the brain is physically different,.there is no doubt, but then we delve into metaphysical territory here which makes it all the more confusing: what defines who we are,.and do we believe the materialists that we are just the summation of chemical reactions...

That is probably not too helpful to us Leavers, or any of us. So we are left with asking who we are,.and what are we going to do about it?

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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2014, 01:49:04 AM »

If this topic is triggering for anyone please do skip over.  This post will discuss the degree to which pwBPD can change their behavior and it might be upsetting to some members.

I want to first address the claim that BPD has no biochemical basis.  While that was believed at one time, it is now an outdated view and the evidence is increasing clear that BPD has a genetic component.  Please see citations here and here for two examples.  This means that there is an actual biochemical basis for the disorder just as in schizophrenia and major depression.  Of course our genes are always expressed relative to our environment, but this is also clear in other diseases such as major depression.  So, the idea that BPD is completely divorced from other mental illnesses such as major depression and schizophrenia is one that is becoming harder to accept, and one that I feel is wrong.

I understand that you are terribly hurt, AG, and I am very sorry to hear about the PTSD that you suffer from.  I know that all of us here have been through a traumatic experience.  Please understand that I am not trying to take anything away from your suffering or what you have been through.

I am not in any way defending the behavior of pwBPD.  I am stating that they are not able to control that behavior, at least not without a great deal of help in learning the tools to do so.  Even still, there is no cure.  In a way you are right, AG, they are like people who drive drunk in that the actions that they perform are undeniably devastating, and I do not defend their actions.  I think, however, that it is rash to assume that a pwBPD has the ability to actually control their behavior while in the throes of an untreated flare.  These impulsive, destructive behaviors are not some separate aspect of BPD - they are BPD.  It is the manifestation of the disorder.  It is the asthmatic wheezing or the epileptic seizing.  It is the disorder.  This is what BPD is.  The root cause is not entirely clear, but is believed to be a result of an undeveloped sense of self.  We often say here that pwBPD are children trapped in adult bodies, and I think there is some real truth in that.  They aren't fully developed emotionally, no matter how much they appear to be adults on the outside.  And just as little children are not able to fully control their emotions, neither are BPD and this is what manifests itself as the impulsive, destructive behaviors.  Are little children monsters because they throw temper tantrums and act out?  I don't think so, it is a normal stage of development.  Every three year old does this.  Aren't they able to control it, can't you just make children not behave this way? Not really.  Again, every three year old does this.  If someone never matures past this stage, can they really be expected not to throw temper tantrums?  You see, I'm not at all clear that pwBPD are really in control.  I think in more ways than not, they are slaves to their out of control emotions.  They aren't really in the driver's seat.

This might seem very hard to accept, because it is very alien to the reality to which you know.  But this is the world of the pwBPD.  It is a world ruled by emotion.  It is a deeply disordered world.  It is a profoundly serious mental illness.  Does that make them evil for it?  I don't think so, but that of course is a value judgement, and one that each of us must make for ourselves.

Yes I agree you basically said the same exact thing that I said. They can change if they want to. Yes the process is long and hard bur they can change. They have to want therapy and change. They're emotions are out of control but they do know right from wrong. They do know the damage they cause. With that being said its not easy but if they take the steps to recovery it can happen. Most do not even try. Again thats my issue with them. THe way you worded it sounds nicer if any of them are reading it. However Im not in any mood to validate any BPD emotion right now.
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« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2014, 09:55:44 AM »

Cosmonaut - The two links that you post are classic psuedo science. The first one concludes that genetic factors could "play a role" in BPD. Genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives so why not our behavior?

The second one concludes that while we are "moving closer to genetic etiology" (fancy word for cause) but there is no identifiable genome linkage.

Thanks for making my point. Just like all the other aspects of our lives, BPD behavior can be caused by genetics and the world we live in. That would be true of all behavior. Disorders are behaviors that are not acceptable or tolerable by others or by the person exhibiting the behavior. Behaviors are not diseases. Cancer is not a behavior. I'm sure that many cancer patients behave differently.
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« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »

Of course some of their issues are learned behavior. All during my childhood whenever my father would punch me or my siblings, we would complain to our mother.

She always told us that those were 'love taps' and dad was showing us how much he loved us. Now is that dysfunction at its finest or what?

The same held true for my exBPDh, his father was also an alcoholic and abused his children too. My alcoholic ex always justified his dad's bad behaviors, as well as his own bad behaviors. That was beaten into him in childhood.

And so the cycle goes round and round. I basically became the martyr that my mother was, and I tolerated my ex's behavior just like she did.

Coming to this site helped me get off the Merry-Go-Round!  YAY for us who survived and continue to thrive!

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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2014, 11:42:53 AM »

Cosmonaut - The two links that you post are classic psuedo science. The first one concludes that genetic factors could "play a role" in BPD. Genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives so why not our behavior?

The second one concludes that while we are "moving closer to genetic etiology" (fancy word for cause) but there is no identifiable genome linkage.

Thanks for making my point. Just like all the other aspects of our lives, BPD behavior can be caused by genetics and the world we live in. That would be true of all behavior. Disorders are behaviors that are not acceptable or tolerable by others or by the person exhibiting the behavior. Behaviors are not diseases. Cancer is not a behavior. I'm sure that many cancer patients behave differently.

I love this debate all these minds working and thinking and sharing with each other. This is a damn good thread. Ok so here are more of my thoughts on it Paul. There was a scientist who's name I really wish I could remember who was doing stem cell research which if anyone is familiar with it are basically cloned cells. The scientist took the same exact cloned cells and put them in different containers. I do not remember the exact organs but they all started to form what would be difference types of organs or parts of the body. What changed them and made them form different even though they were the exact same cell? What did the scientist change? The only thing he changed was the environment thats what made them form different. Even without this research being said you can clearly visibly see that environment factors in with how we are formed. You can clearly see that dark skin color suggests coming from a warmer climate and it is fact that dark skin color is resistant to the rays from the sun. Whiter skin color you can clearly see if more effective in a colder climate. I could keep going on and on but you get the picture. I do not rule out that there could be a genetic link that factors in with the behavior. However I've read many different stories and pretty much 9 times out of the 10 they point to a past event which molded the behavior. Usually horrible parenting or child molesting ect ect.

However at the end of the day behavior is behavior. It is not the same as missing an arm or a leg or having asthma. People with BPD have lived for years into the age of adulthood. They have been around other people in an environmental setting where most of the people who they have come in contact with have expressed discontent to say the least with they're actions towards them. People keep using the example of a 3 year old however they do not have a 3 year olds mind. I get it you mean emotionally right not mind state wise right? Am I missing something is emotion a separate part of the body that does not coexist within the brain? They have lived on this earth long enough and see the effects and damage they are causing. They are not 3 year olds thats a fact. If the medical profession really thought that then there would be alot of things a person with BPD would not be allowed to do. The fact is they are adults who have learned from the behaviors of others that they are destructive towards them. They also know that the things that they do to people they themselves would not like done back to themselves.

I am in no way shape or form saying that it is easy for them to stop the behavior. It probably is super hard. What I am saying is most do not even try. Take a look at any board staying or leaving. You all let me know how many people you see with the letter "U" before BPD when they describe they're ex's. I can guarantee you that it is about 80 percent on this site that start theyre sentences like this "My ex UBPD". They do not start off the sentence saying "My ex DBPD". It is just the therapist that I dated before I met my ex said they do not care to get better. The medical profession for the most part do not accept it as a real illness. They might market is to get more commission from the drugs that sponsor them or to get more money from the patients in general but I tell you know lie the chick I dated before my ex said that on the inside behind the scenes amongst her colleagues it truly is a choice like being an alcoholic or drug addict. Yes it is a sickness still and they still do suffer greatly. However as my ex DBPD own doctor's stated with they're own mouth she has a choice. They all have a choice. They can all be held accountable for they're actions.  

We need to cut the crap with stating that they are basically 3 years old in age. The fact is they are not. They are not mentally retarded. Im sure a person who has lived with theyre type of behaviors for years would have a very difficult time changing and definitely needs help. But like my earlier example stated once they run someone over with the car while drunk, then once and they are in they're right state of mind they can choose to get some help after seeing what they have done. Instead they keep running people over with the car over and over and over again.

Google the definition of evil also see what comes of. You know what Ill do it for you. Hold on. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evil

There you go. They arent 3 yers old thats a fact. They're actions are simply evil. The original thread asked BPD or just Jerk. Yes they are Jerks and yes they are evil. It's a damn choice. Just like it's a choice for us to keep theyre evil asses out or let them in. Is it easy to stop our own behavior of letting these Jerks back in of course not. However you see us all on here crawling for help towards changing our behaviors. They can choose the same... . Damn another long post. I have grammatical errors in it again also. Damn I need to get my Excessive Post length disorder, and grammar disorder checked out soon. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2014, 12:08:09 PM »

This is a very interesting discussion, but this will be the last post that I will make on the topic, because I don't want to be the cause of many hurt feelings.  It's clear that there are a number of different views on the issue and there are strong emotions involved which can make for a volatile mix.  We are all here to support each other in healing and that should be the focus.     I would be happy to hear any responses, however, and will read them with interest.  Feel free to PM me if you like as well.

So what came first, the chicken or the egg? There is debate about this, and it probably isn't a question so simple to answer. That the brain is physically different,.there is no doubt, but then we delve into metaphysical territory here which makes it all the more confusing: what defines who we are,.and do we believe the materialists that we are just the summation of chemical reactions...

That is probably not too helpful to us Leavers, or any of us. So we are left with asking who we are,.and what are we going to do about it?

I agree, Turkish.  The assigning of guilt to BPD behavior is entirely a value judgement and stands separate from the determination of the degree of control that pwBPD have over their behavior which is factual.  I completely understand why all of us here are angry.  Anger is a very necessary and inescapable part of grieving and healing.  We have been terribly wronged and it is natural and right to feel anger for that.  However, I do think that keeping some perspective is helpful in healing least we give ourselves over from anger into hatred.  On the whole, I think bpdfamily is an infinitely better forum for treating pwBPD with compassion and understanding of their disorder than many others on the internet, and I respect that very much. 

I would be the last person to claim that we are but material beings.  I believe with all of my heart that we have an immortal soul.  In the context of clinical medicine, however, it is universally accepted that many diseases have a genetic basis and that this supersedes any amount of willing it to be otherwise, which is the claim that I was countering originally.  People with ADHD or major depression or bipolar disorder (note the use of the term disorder for a disease with known and demonstrated biochemical origin) can't just turn their illness off - why do we assume that pwBPD can?

Yes I agree you basically said the same exact thing that I said. They can change if they want to. Yes the process is long and hard bur they can change. They have to want therapy and change. They're emotions are out of control but they do know right from wrong. They do know the damage they cause. With that being said its not easy but if they take the steps to recovery it can happen. Most do not even try. Again thats my issue with them. THe way you worded it sounds nicer if any of them are reading it. However Im not in any mood to validate any BPD emotion right now.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point, AG.  I completely understand that you aren't in any mood to validate the BPD emotion right now.  You are terribly hurt and trying to heal and I understand that.  I'm sorry you are being put through this.  I know it is a miserable experience.  I think this may be the hardest experience of my entire life.  The way it has torn me apart is unreal.  It hurts terribly.

I don't know that pwBPD can simply change if they want to.  I think the issue is more complex and nuanced than that.  I think given the right tools and support as well as a great deal of hard work, significant improvement can be made in the ability of pwBPD to regulate their emotions and behavior.  So, I do agree with you in many ways.

I think that pwBPD do know right from wrong in a rational sense just the same as we do.  I think that many pwBPD feel tremendous shame about their behavior which is why they work so hard to repress those emotions by splitting.  The way that I see BPD, and I am not an expert by any means, is that it is like they have their hand on a hot stove when they are triggered.  Every instinct of theirs is to pull their hand away.  They are in pain, they are burning, and in agony.  They have to make the pain stop.  They have to pull their hand away.  To them the emotion is overwhelming.  They can't see or even think about the fact that pulling their hand away is going to hurt others.  All they can see is that they have to make the pain stop right now.  Could they keep their hand on the stove?  Yes, they have free will.  They could.  But they aren't going to do so, because every fiber of their being is telling them to pull their hand off the stove.  I realize this is an analogy, and it is not perfect, but maybe it helps to understand the way I think of BPD.  With training, pwBPD can learn that the stove isn't real, that the pain is in their own minds, and they can start to deal with having their hand on the hot stove.  It doesn't ever go away, but it becomes bearable.  Maybe we could say it turns down the heat.

Cosmonaut - The two links that you post are classic psuedo science. The first one concludes that genetic factors could "play a role" in BPD. Genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives so why not our behavior?

The second one concludes that while we are "moving closer to genetic etiology" (fancy word for cause) but there is no identifiable genome linkage.

Thanks for making my point. Just like all the other aspects of our lives, BPD behavior can be caused by genetics and the world we live in. That would be true of all behavior. Disorders are behaviors that are not acceptable or tolerable by others or by the person exhibiting the behavior. Behaviors are not diseases. Cancer is not a behavior. I'm sure that many cancer patients behave differently.

I don't know that we can dismiss the studies, paul.  They are not pseudoscience.  They are performed in accordance with standard practices in the field of human clinical studies.  Studies in humans are significantly more difficult than in the lab or in animals, because of the degree of variation that can not be controlled.  We can't control every variable of the experiment in the way we can in the lab.  It is imperfect, but it is life, and it is the reality of clinical science.  The authors even openly acknowledge this.  This does not invalidate their findings.  A p value of 0.0001 is highly significant, and carries far more weight than just "playing a role".  Many mental disorders do not have clearly defined mechanisms, and the etiology is not fully known.  This is indeed not limited to only mental disorders, but a great many disorders in medicine.  That does not mean that we can't conclude that there is a heritable, genetic component, which is exactly what is being demonstrated for BPD.

The conclusion that genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives is both true and irrelevant.  If we can not isolate specific genetic markers that are linked to disease, than we must throw out the entirety of the basis of the role of genetics in disease.  If there is a known genetic component to cancer, heart disease, and mental disorders such as ADHD, bipolar disorder and major depression then we must also accept the same can be true of BPD.  We can't accept the role in one case and discard it in the other.

Behavioral disorders are commonly accepted in medicine.  ADHD and defiant oppositional disorder being two examples.  Abnormal behavior is a clear manifestation of pathology.  Cancer is not a behavioral disease and thus irrelevant to the discussion.  Unless you include brain cancers and those have been shown to have clear effects on behavior and personality, which is an example of cancer patients behaving differently.

This has been a very spirited discussion.  I hope that I have not been harmful to anyone's healing.  That is not at all my intent.  I do not in any way dismiss or devalue the significant trauma that all of us have experienced.  Being on the receiving end of BPD behavior is devastating.  I know that myself.  If I have hurt anyone, please accept my most sincere apology.   
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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2014, 01:35:16 PM »

I agree - really interesting/provocative thread - and a questions that cuts, I think, to the very heart of what brings us to this board for answers in the first place.

I don't know, but I get the sense that a lot of the really mean/jerky behavior is just the behavior they've learned, through trial/error/experience, that gets them whatever they need/want in the moment.

I mean, think about it.

Most people don't behave this way, so it's behavior that really stands out and gets our attention. Furthermore, it's behavior that hurts, confuses, and frightens us - behavior most of us will therefore make an active effort to change: we ask questions, listen, understand, validate, sympathize, empathize, negotiate, compromise, and sacrifice - anything to placate/pacify this person into not behaving/treating us like this anymore. And we are all (not surprisingly), immensely relieved/grateful when we are allowed to succeed - however intermittently and inconsistently that may be.

I say "allowed" because, clearly, the response they get by behaving like this in the first place does provide them with a LOT of notice, attention, interest, focus, time, energy, and effort that does make them feel of real substance, interest, consideration, and importance to others. And that's a lot of power/control that will be lost when/if they stop behaving that way. The tradeoff, of course, is the gratitude/pleasure they'll receive instead ... . and, of course, the continued interest/desire of others to interact with them at all ... . because without being ever being rewarded for their efforts, people will simply stop noticing/trying altogether ... . although the more intermittent/inconsistent that reward, the more likely/longer/ardently they've learned people will actually continue to keep noticing/trying as well.

Being a jerk, like pretty much everything pwBPD say/do, seems to me like just another learned behavior that works to get them the temporary ego validation and sense of acceptance/approval they need in order to relieve the overwhelming stress/anxiety they constantly experience about being found inadequate, undeserving, unacceptable, unlovable, and unwanted in general.

That said - understanding why they behave this way does not, in any way, make it an acceptable way to behave/treat other people. It doesn't make it any less hurtful, confusing, or frightening. It doesn't make it any less unnecessary, undeserved, or unfair. And it doesn't mean any of us have to excuse, tolerate, or keep responding to it in the way we always have either.

Because, bottom line, it IS jerky ... . it DOESN'T work with everyone ... . and they know that, too ... . they're just not INTERESTED in having anything to do with anyone it DOESN'T work with ... . which, I think, is pretty compelling evidence as to how important/vital this dynamic actually is in defining the kind of relationships they're willing/able to have with other people as well.

And it works in enough of those relationships enough of the time to remain as effective of a means of ego survival for them as it always has been. As long as it does so, there's really not going to be any compelling reason for them to stop doing it either.

It's all about survival of the ego. Can't fight that. Can't really argue with it either.

Best I can do is just get out of the way, let him get whatever he needs by acting this way from someone else, and hope, at some point, it doesn't work anymore.
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2014, 01:53:03 PM »

This is a very interesting discussion, but this will be the last post that I will make on the topic, because I don't want to be the cause of many hurt feelings.  It's clear that there are a number of different views on the issue and there are strong emotions involved which can make for a volatile mix.  We are all here to support each other in healing and that should be the focus.     I would be happy to hear any responses, however, and will read them with interest.  Feel free to PM me if you like as well.

So what came first, the chicken or the egg? There is debate about this, and it probably isn't a question so simple to answer. That the brain is physically different,.there is no doubt, but then we delve into metaphysical territory here which makes it all the more confusing: what defines who we are,.and do we believe the materialists that we are just the summation of chemical reactions...

That is probably not too helpful to us Leavers, or any of us. So we are left with asking who we are,.and what are we going to do about it?

I agree, Turkish.  The assigning of guilt to BPD behavior is entirely a value judgement and stands separate from the determination of the degree of control that pwBPD have over their behavior which is factual.  I completely understand why all of us here are angry.  Anger is a very necessary and inescapable part of grieving and healing.  We have been terribly wronged and it is natural and right to feel anger for that.  However, I do think that keeping some perspective is helpful in healing least we give ourselves over from anger into hatred.  On the whole, I think bpdfamily is an infinitely better forum for treating pwBPD with compassion and understanding of their disorder than many others on the internet, and I respect that very much. 

I would be the last person to claim that we are but material beings.  I believe with all of my heart that we have an immortal soul.  In the context of clinical medicine, however, it is universally accepted that many diseases have a genetic basis and that this supersedes any amount of willing it to be otherwise, which is the claim that I was countering originally.  People with ADHD or major depression or bipolar disorder (note the use of the term disorder for a disease with known and demonstrated biochemical origin) can't just turn their illness off - why do we assume that pwBPD can?

Yes I agree you basically said the same exact thing that I said. They can change if they want to. Yes the process is long and hard bur they can change. They have to want therapy and change. They're emotions are out of control but they do know right from wrong. They do know the damage they cause. With that being said its not easy but if they take the steps to recovery it can happen. Most do not even try. Again thats my issue with them. THe way you worded it sounds nicer if any of them are reading it. However Im not in any mood to validate any BPD emotion right now.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point, AG.  I completely understand that you aren't in any mood to validate the BPD emotion right now.  You are terribly hurt and trying to heal and I understand that.  I'm sorry you are being put through this.  I know it is a miserable experience.  I think this may be the hardest experience of my entire life.  The way it has torn me apart is unreal.  It hurts terribly.

I don't know that pwBPD can simply change if they want to.  I think the issue is more complex and nuanced than that.  I think given the right tools and support as well as a great deal of hard work, significant improvement can be made in the ability of pwBPD to regulate their emotions and behavior.  So, I do agree with you in many ways.

I think that pwBPD do know right from wrong in a rational sense just the same as we do.  I think that many pwBPD feel tremendous shame about their behavior which is why they work so hard to repress those emotions by splitting.  The way that I see BPD, and I am not an expert by any means, is that it is like they have their hand on a hot stove when they are triggered.  Every instinct of theirs is to pull their hand away.  They are in pain, they are burning, and in agony.  They have to make the pain stop.  They have to pull their hand away.  To them the emotion is overwhelming.  They can't see or even think about the fact that pulling their hand away is going to hurt others.  All they can see is that they have to make the pain stop right now.  Could they keep their hand on the stove?  Yes, they have free will.  They could.  But they aren't going to do so, because every fiber of their being is telling them to pull their hand off the stove.  I realize this is an analogy, and it is not perfect, but maybe it helps to understand the way I think of BPD.  With training, pwBPD can learn that the stove isn't real, that the pain is in their own minds, and they can start to deal with having their hand on the hot stove.  It doesn't ever go away, but it becomes bearable.  Maybe we could say it turns down the heat.

Cosmonaut - The two links that you post are classic psuedo science. The first one concludes that genetic factors could "play a role" in BPD. Genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives so why not our behavior?

The second one concludes that while we are "moving closer to genetic etiology" (fancy word for cause) but there is no identifiable genome linkage.

Thanks for making my point. Just like all the other aspects of our lives, BPD behavior can be caused by genetics and the world we live in. That would be true of all behavior. Disorders are behaviors that are not acceptable or tolerable by others or by the person exhibiting the behavior. Behaviors are not diseases. Cancer is not a behavior. I'm sure that many cancer patients behave differently.

I don't know that we can dismiss the studies, paul.  They are not pseudoscience.  They are performed in accordance with standard practices in the field of human clinical studies.  Studies in humans are significantly more difficult than in the lab or in animals, because of the degree of variation that can not be controlled.  We can't control every variable of the experiment in the way we can in the lab.  It is imperfect, but it is life, and it is the reality of clinical science.  The authors even openly acknowledge this.  This does not invalidate their findings.  A p value of 0.0001 is highly significant, and carries far more weight than just "playing a role".  Many mental disorders do not have clearly defined mechanisms, and the etiology is not fully known.  This is indeed not limited to only mental disorders, but a great many disorders in medicine.  That does not mean that we can't conclude that there is a heritable, genetic component, which is exactly what is being demonstrated for BPD.

The conclusion that genetic factors play a role in every aspect of our lives is both true and irrelevant.  If we can not isolate specific genetic markers that are linked to disease, than we must throw out the entirety of the basis of the role of genetics in disease.  If there is a known genetic component to cancer, heart disease, and mental disorders such as ADHD, bipolar disorder and major depression then we must also accept the same can be true of BPD.  We can't accept the role in one case and discard it in the other.

Behavioral disorders are commonly accepted in medicine.  ADHD and defiant oppositional disorder being two examples.  Abnormal behavior is a clear manifestation of pathology.  Cancer is not a behavioral disease and thus irrelevant to the discussion.  Unless you include brain cancers and those have been shown to have clear effects on behavior and personality, which is an example of cancer patients behaving differently.

This has been a very spirited discussion.  I hope that I have not been harmful to anyone's healing.  That is not at all my intent.  I do not in any way dismiss or devalue the significant trauma that all of us have experienced.  Being on the receiving end of BPD behavior is devastating.  I know that myself.  If I have hurt anyone, please accept my most sincere apology.   

No need to apologize man. We are all in pain here. You are entitled to your opinion and though I do not agree with a lot you say there are gems in there bro. Don't exit out of the discussion dude. We can all learn from each other. I suggest we all take what we can from this discussion or any discussion for that matter. No hard feelings man. I'm sorry for your pain as well hope we all heal up nicely. I'm very grateful to you all to be honest. I mean for Christ sakes I'm home alone Memorial day weekend trying to mend myself back together while everyone else is out and about at parties and stuff. This discussion or debate or whatever you want to call it is therapeutic indeed. You guys honestly saved my life and so did this site.

You do keep contradicting yourself though. You are stating you don't know if they can change but saying with help they can change. How do they get that help to quote on quote turn down the heat on the hot stove? They would have to want it correct? They would have to seek it correct? They would have to work at it bit by bit correct? Your basically stating that they're internal turmoil will continue for the rest of they're lives but with help they can learn better coping mechanisms right? Whether the heat is turned down as you describe it a notch or not still change isn't it? The term being a jerk or being evil does not reflect on what one is feeling inside it reflects on what one does to others. If I suffered inner anger that caused me to go around punching people in the face but I went to go get help little by little and in the long run stopped punching people in the face would I still be a jerk or evil even though I was still in pain on the inside? No I wouldn't be. Being a jerk implies what I am doing to someone else. Maybe my inner turmoil still makes me want to punch people and I went out and purchased a punching bag and raged at home alone but now had a new coping technique of hitting the bag instead of a person. Maybe I warn the person that I feel out of control and might hit them and they need to exit the room so that I can punch the bag instead of them. I would then be considered not being a jerk or evil. They do not even try man. Trying would consist of doing everything in they're power to not hurt someone or reduce the hurt to others. Can they just stop on they're own? Hell no of course not that would be like me trying to fly a plane by just getting in it and trying to do so. However If I go to school and take the steps towards learning how to fly it definitely can happen. Would I be able to do tricks and stunts with the plane after learning how to fly. Probably not.

The bottom line is most do not even try. When they are regulated they use that time for themselves not to prevent hurt that they do to others. Ok they're hand is on the hot stove when theyre feeling emotional. What about on a good day? What do they do with that time? Do they use that time to seek a good therapist? Do they use that time to read some materials on preventative measures? No most do not. Go on the success stories and read them. You will read the same thing over and over again. It takes a BPD wanting to change and working towards it. Yes they have set backs and yes it is super hard. I do not question how hard it is. However they have an obligation once they know they destroy to stop doing the nonsense. It is they're choice to not work towards it. Believe me I had and part of me still does have an over the top amount of empathy for them. I too took your approach I stood by her through thick and thin and had plenty of hope and faith. I too took the approach of it's not her fault. However the therapy she got was forced by courts. The information went in one ear and out the other. You ever wanted to take a class really badly in school? Have you ever been forced to take a class or learn something? What happens when you actually want to do something I mean really want it and work towards it? Ill tell you what happens you do well in it and the information sticks. However when something is forced the information goes in one ear and out the other. I dont speak for all but alot of them do not try. I stand by what I say firmly they simply do not try.


Ill use myself for an example. I do not want this to happen to me again. So what do I do? I've been paying for therapy when I can afford it. I could easily numb the pain and use someone else and I know damn well the pain will go away. As I stated in an earlier post I have absolutely no problem with getting women. I could go out literally tonight and Im certain I can come home with someone. I could repeat that process over and over again. I could keep using women to numb my pain but the issue will still be there. I'm making a conscious choice to not f**** people over. Do I have set backs hell yeah. I have a behavior patter induced from childhood trauma aka Codependency like all of us have on this site. However should I just keep doing the same crap over and over again and just state I'm Codependant so its not my fault. Hell no I'm and adult now. What happened in my childhood is no longer present. Now that I'm an adult I can make a choice to work towards getting better. Maybe that will take years maybe months I do not know but I chose to work. I choose to read. I choose to use this site and you wonderful people on it with all your insightful information. They make a choice. That's a fact. Go ask any therapist if I'm wrong. I challenge you to just ask do they have a choice. They will tell you yes guaranteed. So yes they are jerks and evil. Fact. Do they have good in them and potential to not be jerks? Yes we have all seen that potential which is why we are on here in the first place. If they were jerks all the time we would not have even been with them for so long. They are responsible for they're actions plain and simple. My BPD ex had to actually go to court in order for her to be let out of the hospital this last time. If she did not have a choice they would have kept her in there in a padded room somewhere. They do have a choice. That's a fact
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Cimbaruns
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2014, 03:46:42 PM »

AG. Cosmonaut... Talithacumi  Paul16 and all

This is a very interesting thread and makes me want to opine in earnest... .

Evil... . not sure it applies to me ... however all here have walked their own paths with their BPD ex s... .

Jerks... . absolutely... . even though i feel sincerely sorry for just what kind of life it must be for my uexBPDw... . no reason to treat me like s&$t whenever they deem it necessary... .

I understand the whole basis of their disorder... . the emotional mind of a 5 year old... . never fully developing as a result of the childhood that they were raised in ... . however they are adults... . and they did manage to get through a good chunk of their adult life living around others... . raising children and holding jobs... . being responsible if you will. They are able to make adult decisions etc etc... . That being said... .

I believe everything they say or do is based solely on THEIR needs at that time... . what serves their purpose or what gives them the feeling that they want in that situation.

They use manipulation and lies to achieve it a lot of the time... . and quite frankly I believe that they don't understand what they are doing isn't just plain ... . normal.

I could have the most articulate of conversations with my ex... . yet she could turn around and act on impulse in the most awful ways with the things that she would say or do

My ex had moved over 2 dozen times since the age of 7... . had many jobs(5 jobs in the the 5 years we were together) and used lies and control and forms of manipulation frequently...

Quite frankly I think they have one hand on the burner and the other on the control... the whole time... . they are so conflicted that their inner child is driving the train... . but the adult in them knows exactly where the turns are... . and who's on board... .

I do believe in my heart it is very complex for them... . for my ex

And in my situation... . each and every recycle was painful for her... . the pushing away... . the then feeling of loneliness... . the fact she couldn't be alone... .

BUT

This last time she knew enough ... . to go out and seek a replacement first... . to lie... . to cheat... . to walk out on her wife... . the one she vowed to love forever"... .

She was a jerk... . no doubt about it... . but well aware of what she was doing... . no doubt about that either... .

No free pass from me... . I wasn't what she NEEDED any longer... .

Now that's an example of one hand on the burner... . the other on the controls!


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Narellan
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2014, 05:32:10 PM »

From my researching ( too much) and speaking with my therapist I have learned a few basic differences between a sociopath and someone with BPD. And as we are often just " diagnosing" our own ex partners for our own healing process, it was important to me to learn the difference.

Sociopaths consciously manipulate, lie, cheat and have no feelings of remorse or shame. They have no feelings full stop. They behave on a needs met basis. They are calculated.

BPD sufferers don't consciously manipulate, they react on impulse due to emotional turbulence in the brain. They disregulate when their emotions go haywire. They feel too much. They are driven by their fear to run. They feel deep love, shame and guilt.

The actions are the same, but the difference is the motive behind their action.

My exuBPD may be a calculating sociopath with no feelings. But that raises lots of ambiguities and questions and things don't make sense. And to believe this means that everything we shared was a lie. So I firmly believe he has BPD. I choose to believe that and I can heal from the wounds of that relationship knowing that.

As we are all on the leaving and detaching board it's paramount to do things for ourselves to better heal from our wounds. And much of that is self talk.

To label my exuBPD as a jerk and get fixated on the devastating things he did to me would keep me entrapped with anger. It's easier for me to feel the pain and profound sadness and let the relationship go.
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AG
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2014, 05:58:37 PM »

From my researching ( too much) and speaking with my therapist I have learned a few basic differences between a sociopath and someone with BPD. And as we are often just " diagnosing" our own ex partners for our own healing process, it was important to me to learn the difference.

Sociopaths consciously manipulate, lie, cheat and have no feelings of remorse or shame. They have no feelings full stop. They behave on a needs met basis. They are calculated.

BPD sufferers don't consciously manipulate, they react on impulse due to emotional turbulence in the brain. They disregulate when their emotions go haywire. They feel too much. They are driven by their fear to run. They feel deep love, shame and guilt.

The actions are the same, but the difference is the motive behind their action.

My exuBPD may be a calculating sociopath with no feelings. But that raises lots of ambiguities and questions and things don't make sense. And to believe this means that everything we shared was a lie. So I firmly believe he has BPD. I choose to believe that and I can heal from the wounds of that relationship knowing that.

As we are all on the leaving and detaching board it's paramount to do things for ourselves to better heal from our wounds. And much of that is self talk.

To label my exuBPD as a jerk and get fixated on the devastating things he did to me would keep me entrapped with anger. It's easier for me to feel the pain and profound sadness and let the relationship go.

Narallen I literally asked my therapist "Was anything even real". She said of course some of it was but you will never know that and she doesn't know what was either. Funny that you had that portion within your post. You share a different experience then I do. To be honest though I have literally caught very well thought and calculated movements red handed. I have caught movements that were well thought out and planned and not on impulse and many others have. I have also experienced this woman treating me like a King and having me feel like I'm the most special person in the world to her. For my emotional state I have to keep her as devalued as possible and focus on the bad when thinking of her because if not I could easily slip when she shows up here again. It will happen for sure I know that and I need to keep her out. I agree though we cannot keep hate in our hearts but we don't have to hate them to recognize they are jerks. I have read your story Narellan and it hurts my spirit what was done to you and also makes me pissed off. I think he is a jerk if you ask me but again thats just me and my own opinion. We are all going to be alright none of our methods are wrong as long as they are working to keep the poison out of our lives. Hope your ok I saw your last post about your sis
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2014, 06:09:04 PM »

To be honest though I have literally caught very well thought and calculated movements red handed. I have caught movements that were well thought out and planned and not on impulse and many others have.

AG,

Yes, I have seen this also many times with my uBPDstbxw.

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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2014, 06:11:46 PM »

Thankyou AG.  I confided in my son the other night and he was also angry and trying to contain his anger , wanted to spring to my defence ( that's a stronger in male emotion). We had a great bonding session and I talked him through how I was feeling. He wanted to punch the guy out. I told him that will increase the drama and intensify the whole thing. In the end I had to ask myself what I wanted. I want them( my former best friend, and my exuBPD) out of my life in the calmest least devastating way possible. I've done that. She will never know the real reason I ended our friendship. Ill never have contact with him again. I have brought an end to it all. I went through extreme pain to do this, and probably have internalised some anger, given I still recognise I'm depressed and withdrawn. But I'm alive.

And I've been true to myself and acted with dignity and respect for all involved.

Thankyou for reading my story and your ongoing support. Being here and receiving that support has saved my life. Peace to you AG 
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2014, 06:23:41 PM »

Wow - A full afternoon of reading. I respect your point of view Cosmonaut I just don't agree with it.

People are a product of their genetic make up and their body of life experience. They can control that product in many ways. Physical difficulties can be attended to and life experiences can be used in a positive or negative way. I appreciate that I've had an experience with a person that was 9/9 of the behaviors listed in the DSM that define BPD. I don't know that I agree with a specific label, other than undesirable behavior, but it taught me what to look for or look out for. I've also had a relationship with an alcoholic after never having any experience with one in my life. Now I know how to recognize it.

I have to disagree with you as well Narellan as my ex consciously manipulated people and situations and found mechanisms to feel no guilt about it. Again, she was 9/9 on the BPD scale.

Has there ever been a defense of a serious crime like murder or rape due to BPD? Could there be? If science continues to presume that their brains are underdeveloped and they can't control their actions couldn't there be? Innocent by reason of insanity? Incompetent to stand trial? I haven't heard the BPD defense yet. Has anybody else? I have seen people with this type of behavior have no problem accusing others unjustly of many things.
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