Still having trouble with validation

[Depression = 72% of members]

My uBPDw has some of the uber-jealousy issues that others have described.  I've tried to break the habit of simply staring at the ground to avoid the arguments, and validate her feelings.  My problem comes when she's not expressing a feeling, but her judgements about what I think.

So for example we have the workout discussion at least 10 times a month.

Her: I feel sad about how my body looks

Me: I understand you feel sad, but trust me you've got a great body (she does... . 50+ years old & a better body than 90% of 20 year olds)

Her: I just feel when you go work out you're doing it to look at other women.

Me: Well, that's not really a feeling, I'm not going to continually argue with you about what I think.

Her: I just feel like it I was built better (i.e. larger breasts) you'd find me more attractive.

Me: Again, that's not a feeling... .

Her: OK, I feel sad that if I was built better you'd find me more attractive.

Me: I understand you feel sad, but I find you plenty attractive and wouldn't change a thing and I'm not going to argue about what you think I think.

Her: But there must be a reason I feel this way... . what aren't you telling me.

Me: I see you're sad and upset about this, there may be reasons you feel that way but they don't have anything to do with what I think and how attractive I think you are... .

Now if we're home and I have an escape route I can usually conclude the conversation, sometime before dis-regulation, sometimes not.

However when she does this while were in the car and can't separate then she just picks and picks until I get pissed... . then my "reaction is why she feels this way... . "

So what do you do when the validation is brushed off?  Other times I've tried to calmly discuss the whole feelings=reality type of thinking (somehow this makes sense to her when I'm the example, but not when we're dealing with her feelings).

Later she'll complain that whenever she talks about her feelings I get upset.  I tell her, no when we talked about your feelings I wasn't upset, it's when you insist on arguing about what I think... .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My uBPDw has some of the uber-jealousy issues that others have described.  I've tried to break the habit of simply staring at the ground to avoid the arguments, and validate her feelings.  My problem comes when she's not expressing a feeling, but her judgements about what I think.

So for example we have the workout discussion at least 10 times a month.

Her: I feel sad about how my body looks

Me: I understand you feel sad, but trust me you've got a great body (she does... . 50+ years old & a better body than 90% of 20 year olds)

Her: I just feel when you go work out you're doing it to look at other women.

Me: Well, that's not really a feeling, I'm not going to continually argue with you about what I think.

Her: I just feel like it I was built better (i.e. larger breasts) you'd find me more attractive.

Me: Again, that's not a feeling... .

Her: OK, I feel sad that if I was built better you'd find me more attractive.

Me: I understand you feel sad, but I find you plenty attractive and wouldn't change a thing and I'm not going to argue about what you think I think.

Her: But there must be a reason I feel this way... . what aren't you telling me.

Me: I see you're sad and upset about this, there may be reasons you feel that way but they don't have anything to do with what I think and how attractive I think you are... .

Now if we're home and I have an escape route I can usually conclude the conversation, sometime before dis-regulation, sometimes not.

However when she does this while were in the car and can't separate then she just picks and picks until I get pissed... . then my "reaction is why she feels this way... . "

So what do you do when the validation is brushed off?  Other times I've tried to calmly discuss the whole feelings=reality type of thinking (somehow this makes sense to her when I'm the example, but not when we're dealing with her feelings).

Later she'll complain that whenever she talks about her feelings I get upset.  I tell her, no when we talked about your feelings I wasn't upset, it's when you insist on arguing about what I think... .

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[maxsterling]

I sense your frustration here.  And big props to you for trying to validate. 

I deal with pretty much the same thing, and think I have slowly resigned myself to understand that sometimes there is just nothing I can do. 

My issue is this:  She is physically attractive, but her constant negative self talk is extremely unattractive.  And her negative self talk is pretty much 24/7.  I'll list a few things that I have tried or seen the T try with her that may help:

1)  Smile.  Seriously, if I respond to her with a smile on my face, she will smile back, like an infant will. 

2)  Be sure to give her lots of physical attention.  Plenty of touching, hugging, and kissing, brushing her hair, etc.  I give verbal compliments, but she almost always rejects them, and then I feel hurt, so I try to give more "physical" compliments by touching etc.

3)  I think a better validation is to explain how creating a positive self image is extremely difficult, and how most people struggle with that, and then ask her what she specifically is worried about and why. 

4)  Remember, she has a low self image, and you countering by saying "trust me you have a great body" is actually invalidating her low self image.  This is tough to think about, because I know you or I would like a compliment when we are feeling low - but I know my dBPDgf will feel invalidated and even worse if I compliment her when she is feeling low.

[an0ught]

Hi IsItHerOrIsItMe,

I think body image issues are incredibly difficult for us to deal with. These issues are extremely deep and we are so close and that makes it so hard. A huge amount of issues and self hatred can be there built up over a lifetime.

Whatever we say we can't fill that hole. Likely it will be rejected with a barb that hurts us. Invalidating us and our love. Resulting in us getting angry and feel the anger in our partner that way - a form of projection.

Maxsterling gave some good hints on validation. It is however as important to have boundaries here as this specific hole is very, very deep and in the best case will totally deplete us or as likely at some time a barb will get through and fighting starts.

One, two or max three rounds of validation and then timeout/boundary. There are limits what we can do here.

[tired-of-it-all]

Dear IsIt,

I think you handled the situation very well.  Your responses were very good.  At this point in my life, I would probably use some of your same statements but then conclude the conversation with, "I am not getting into this bull___ argument with you again.  I really don't know how to help you beyond saying what I have just said." 

My wife is very similar.  55 and the body of a 22 year old.  Better than a 22 year old.  She will do a poor job of fixing up.  Sabotages her looks, shotty clothes, weird way of fixing her hair.

I may be wrong in my approach but I have become very firm and direct about any issues.  She no longer has a lot to say about her looks.  I compliment her when it is deserved.  When she is doing something weird I deal with it directly.  I say, "Go back and change that shirt.  It is ragged and I am not going out with you looking like that."  Once I said, "Your hair looks great."  She replied with, "Well thanks but it can't look this way every time."  I replied, "And why is that?  What keeps you from fixing it that way every time we go out?"  No answer because there was no reason.  Just more way of defeating our happiness.

I would like for my wife to work.  She applies for crazy low paying work and never gets a nibble.  I suspect she is sabotaging the effort somehow.  When she works her confidence is very high and I find her much more attractive.  I remember why I married her.

I disagree with max a little.  I believe that a lot of petting and soothing only makes the BPD worse.  It is a form of enabling.  When they get worse it can get really, really bad for us.  I have found that a very firm hand works much better.  It doesn't help with our happiness but it helps her not to behave badly in public.

I would like to know your opinion of my behavior.  It is not what I want to do.  It is just a part of my survival.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Whatever we say we can't fill that hole. Likely it will be rejected with a barb that hurts us. Invalidating us and our love. Resulting in us getting angry and feel the anger in our partner that way - a form of projection.

I'm not sure I understand this part... . is it my projection or her barbs are a form of projection?

One, two or max three rounds of validation and then timeout/boundary. There are limits what we can do here.

This sounds about right, and is similar to what I've adopted with the endless accusations.  She's learned to keep the tone of the questions civil, but after 2-3 questions I shut it down saying I'm not going to be subjected to an unwarranted interogation... .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I think you handled the situation very well.  Your responses were very good.  At this point in my life, I would probably use some of your same statements but then conclude the conversation with, "I am not getting into this bull___ argument with you again.  I really don't know how to help you beyond saying what I have just said." 

I have said things similar, but usually after she's engaged me and I'm pissed off... . so basically I'm trying to not get to that point.

She will do a poor job of fixing up.  Sabotages her looks, shotty clothes, weird way of fixing her hair.

Mine doesn't sabotage, but no matter what the conditions/conversation she falls back on "sorry I can't look like your ex-wife... . "

I think that would have me take an approach like yours where it's a definite behavior designed to provoke a response... .

[earthgirl]

This whole issue of her "knowing" what you are thinking (and being wrong)... . this is SUCH a constant in my relationship, as well.  It's so difficult to validate that, because they are WRONG, and you have to be careful about validating something that just isn't true... .

Sometimes, I've found that a reality check actually works on this one.  Instead of saying what I want to say, which is, "That is such *&^%$!  Stop telling me how I feel!  Because you are not good at it, at all!"  (Disclosure:   I have in fact lost it, and said this very thing.)  I will try something like, "I know it must be frustrating/scary/upsetting (whatever works best in the scenario) to believe I am thinking something like that... . what makes you believe that's the case?  Usually -- because he is SO FAR OFF THE MARK -- there is no objective information he can put forth to back up this belief.  And if he can come up with something that could possibly be interpreted to support his "feeling" (which is not a feeling, really, but a suspicion about my feelings), usually it's so vague that it could be interpreted any number of ways, so I will say, ":)o you think it's possible that (insert other interpretation here.)  Sometimes, this actually works.  He can see the logic in it.  This only works if he's not disregulated.  Once he's even slightly disregulated, forget it.   

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Mine's actually gotten as far as asking me "well, since I feel that way don't you think there must be a reason?"... .

However, any sort of discussion about feelings <> facts has never made it very far.

[earthgirl]

Mine's actually gotten as far as asking me "well, since I feel that way don't you think there must be a reason?"... .

However, any sort of discussion about feelings <> facts has never made it very far.

I might follow that statement up with, "What do you think the reason is?"  It's a form of CBT, which has proven to be (somewhat) effective at times with pwBPD. 

It's true that reality checks/facts can only get you so far with pwBPD.  I think that may be because their reality shifts.

[tired-of-it-all]

Mine used to get mad at me if she dreamed that I did something bad. She would confront me with her dream like I actually did whatever it was. I finally learned to say:"I have no control over what you dream. Why are you mad over something you dreamed?"