Anybody try to repair an argument with "Gottman" from Marriage Counselling

[gary seven]

Yesterday was Father's Day: Cards from the kids and not her.

After dinner, she says: "I want to start cleaning up the house." 

Me: "Yes, and I want to clean the yard up and start unpacking some 16 yr old

boxes I've been carrying around for years."

She: "Well that means you aren't going to clean up the house and I can't live here with this mess that you allowed my Dad to do while I was in the hospital.  So you're saying you won't help me."

Me:  " I said I would AND I would like to do some of my stuff, too."

She:  "Then you won't clean up."

Me:  "This is a great opportunity to use the Gottmann techniques the Marriage Counselor gave up to step down an argument."

She: "This is not an argument."

Me:  "I disagree."   I run upstairs to get the papers the MC gave us gave us last Monday.  We are supposed to refer to them when we disagree.  These are ways to de-escalate.  Multiple ways of talking points.

She hones in on one ":)on't Withdraw."

Me:  "You are hurting my feelings , I am feeling blamed, I feel criticized. I am starting to feel flooded."  "Can you stop this."

She:  "No, it clearly says ":)on't withdraw."  ":)on't withdraw."

Me:  "What about the other 50 items?"

She: "It clearly says don't withdraw."

Ever been in one of these?

Yeah it was a Happy Father's day all right.

We head back to MC today.  I'm bringing my copy of the list.

[OutOfEgypt]

Never tried that technique, nor had I ever been able to get my ex to go to marriage counseling in a sustained way.  It was always just me begging during a period when she was "checked out" and humping some other guy.

But I've had enough arguments to know that it is hard enough to get a rational person to take responsibility, but it is 100 times harder when it is a pwBPD.  One of the main aspects of their dynamic is to avoid and dodge responsibility for what they are doing wrong or for any kind of guilt.  So, depending on how severe her BPD is, I'm not sure you're ever going to get anywhere with "techniques" like that.  Those techniques pressuppose an ideal situation with two rational adults who are willing to look at themselves in the mirror for the sake of the relationship.  In my experience, any kind of confrontation of destructive or inappropriate or unhelpful behavior was most often met with defensiveness and blame-shifting.  It was turned against me.  Suddenly I was accused of playing "victim" or thinking I am "perfect."  It was saved for later, for another argument or a passive-aggressive jab.  But yeah, usually what returned was an accusation.

[gary seven]

I'm not sure you're ever going to get anywhere with "techniques" like that.  Those techniques pressuppose an ideal situation with two rational adults who are willing to look at themselves in the mirror for the sake of the relationship.  In my experience, any kind of confrontation of destructive or inappropriate or unhelpful behavior was most often met with defensiveness and blame-shifting.  It was turned against me. 

Thx OOE:  I have to agree.

This is our second round of MC.  The last time was almost a year ago, with the top person in our city.  It cost me literally thousands of dollars (did not take insurance)  and he (with our permission) videotaped us with her in full BPD form.  I ended it after our oldest S10 tried to run away from home to be away from her.

This afternoon is session #3 with the new guy, who is on our insurance , and is anice guy.  Me thinks it will be another s&$^#storm.   She has been faking everyone out at her current program as "most recovered." What a prize and what a fool I am.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hehe.  Sounds like a good time .  At least it sounds like you have plenty of documentation if you ever decide to split.  That is tough.

I don't think you are a fool, by the way.  It takes an immense amount of faith and courage to be a person who tries to do the right thing in the face of the ridiculous situations we are placed in by a spouse with BPD.  I eventually decided "no more" -no more blaming, gaslighting, and infidelity- but you aren't a fool for wanting your family to stay together.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

She:  "No, it clearly says ":)on't withdraw."  ":)on't withdraw."

That sounds like my uBPDw anytime I remove myself... . In her words she doesn't "run away" or some such to try and bait me to stay.

Any separation is viewed as me choosing to reject her.  You just can't let it stop you.

[ugghh]

Been there - we did the whole Gottman recovery weekend. The problem with Gottman or any MC for that matter is that they presuppose that you have 2 equal parties to the relationship operating on more or less equal footing.  When you are involved with a BPD this could not be further from the truth. They will manipulate and take things out of context (as in this case) only what supports their self centered position.

She could also be focusing on don't withdraw because as a non it is actually one of the most powerful tools we have to counter their attempts at control.  Although it was only in the last year before I moved out, I always found great relief when I simply left the room.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Been there - we did the whole Gottman recovery weekend. The problem with Gottman or any MC for that matter is that they presuppose that you have 2 equal parties to the relationship operating on more or less equal footing.  When you are involved with a BPD this could not be further from the truth. They will manipulate and take things out of context (as in this case) only what supports their self centered position.

We went through the retrouvaille weekend with little success... . probably didn't get much out of it for the same problems.

[gary seven]

Thanks Isit and Ugghh.

My premise from wasting the thousands at the high priced Gottmann guru, who is a good person, did not factor in her evolving, anti-matter, reverse-polarity participation in such a closed (although spacious) office. 

His office contained a beautiful library, where there was a whole mix of books on couples dealing the whole gamut, from addiction, cheating, gambling, to abuse, and recovery ,etc.

It was at the end when it crystallized and he offered me SWOE to read, and some book for her(I forgot its title).  Being broke, I told him I had already ordered it thru our county library system. 

And then I figured it out:  the library consisted of all of the cases /clients/disorders he had seen.  I was the first to be offered a "new book" from his collection.  What a prize.  Almost like something out of Alfred Hitchcock Presents.

I cry sometimes at night thinking about this reality:  my heart is forever scarred.  I feel like a falling star ( go check it out on Youtube if you like really sad music).  And so are my kids.  However, I am developing a plan, and implementing it slowly.  It may be two more years before I can make a break... . unless she does something outrageous again.  I am not afraid over the potential physical abuse by her upon me to get the law involved.  Her record speaks for itself.  What is sad is that my kids will never understand.  She has wired them to her for too many years and like a sap I never saw it coming.