Please remind me that patterns repeat

[Tincup]

Hi all,

I don't know why I am having a weak moment after being NC for so long.  No worries, I have no urge to contact her at all.  Actually I am at the point where I could even run into her somewhere and I don't think it will bother me.  I don't want her back at all, but my question is this and I don't know why I am even thinking about it... But this journey really is two steps forward and one step back (this is my one step back moment).

My rational side knows the answer but here you go... .Will she be the same way with the next guy? Or was I just "special" and triggered her?

[enlighten me]

Im seeing the pattern play out with my ex wife and her fiancé. Ive also seen the pattern with my exgf and her exs.

Not been around to see if the exgf is already in another relationship and doing it again but as sure as night turns into day she will eventually.

[Tausk]

There is no sure way to tell what patterns will develop.  My replacement doesn't trigger my ex like I did.  He's much more repressed and lonely. And he doesn't have a sense of boundaries like I do.  So in many ways he's a better fit.  I knew he was a better fit for my ex, even while my ex was cultivating him when we were together.  And I knew that they would get married when I left her.  I understood that she didn't want someone to love her.  Just to tolerate her.

Will he be treated better?  Probably not.  Will he have a partner who can provide understanding, compassion, empathy, self sacrifice and responsibility?  Probably not.  The issue is that I became a toxic trigger to my ex and visa versa.  My closure and detachment is attainable only when I detach from what may be occuring in my ex's life.  The projected shame of the Disorder tells me that the longer my replacement stays with my ex, the better he is and the less of a person I am.  This simply is not true.  It's simply a factor of the level of trigger and the tolerance towards the Disorders.  

I needed a partner and friend.  My ex would never be able to really provide what I needed.  And the more this became apparent the more tense and toxic we became.   Freedom is detachment from my ex.  So, I try and often pray for their happiness.  I radically accept (which hurts like a motherf-ker) that they are in "love" and they are good for each other.

Remember!  A truely self actualized and mentally aware and healthy person probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few weeks with my ex.  I lasted three years.  So increased length of interaction with a gfwBPD does not correlate with mental health, success, or anything on those lines.  I was not better than the previous guys before me, and I am not better than my replacement.  I was just the next guy to put down his money at the kissing booth.

But I do know that it is very very very unlikely that she will find herself cured one day.  It just doesn't happen.   Happiness is very unlikely.   Look at the poll of people who are asked if they would do it again, would they marry their ex.  If you take out the kids factor, it's a lobsided... ."HELL NO."   But I give my cheating ex and her new cheating husband, a 50/50 chance that in the end, they will survive in misery.  I'd say 45 percent chance of divorce.  And about a 2-5 percent chance of murder/suicide.

[enlighten me]

Hi Tausk

My thoughts on this are simple. The pattern will always repeat its just the timing that's different.

Just because a person seems to be a better match doesn't mean it will work out. Everyone has a straw that will break the camels back. The fact that mt exgf and her ex husband lasted 6 years and we lasted 2 1/2 doesn't mean he was a better man than me or I was more astute and sussed her out earlier. It all depends on what triggers her.

A more laid back person may seem to be less confrontational to us but to a BPD may appear to not be interested in them thus triggering them.

The way I see it is a person with BPD has a certain capacity for negative feelings before they spill out. A gentle trickle will one day fill them up. Where as some one who is more confrontational with them will be like opening the flood gates.

My ex wife is due to be married in 2 days but her mum has said she has been devaluing her fiancé for a few months. The same pattern as happened with me and her.

Im a bit tired and its not the most elegant way of putting it across but it will have to do for now.

[mstnghu]

I go back and forth as to whether or not I want to stay with my BPD wife. When we get in really bad blow out fights I've flat out told her that no other man would put up with what I've put up with from her. If we end up in divorce, I almost have some sort of twisted desire to see her in another relationship almost so I can prove I was right... .because I know she would treat the next guy with just as much craziness as she's treated me. She would also realize the grass isn't greener on the other side. In her mind, I'm a terrible person and she could find somebody so much better. She's had previous boyfriends before I came along who I've never met and I've always been curious as to how their relationships were with her. I'm sure the version I get from my wife isn't exactly accurate.

So basically, I do believe that no matter who BPD people are with, they will eventually show their true colors and will repeat the cycle. I think my wife and I tend to have a volatile relationship because I actually have a backbone and have been making a conscious effort to reclaim my life. My wife probably would be better off with somebody who's a complete pushover. They'd fight less, although I know she'd still not be a happy and content person. I'm not willing to let her bulldoze me into the ground anymore and it infuriates her when she doesn't get her way with me. That's one of the biggest triggers that will cause her to lash out at me and let me know what a terrible husband I am.

[Changingman]

Hey Tincup,

I don't blame anyone for asking this question.

I think it comes partly from how crazy and abusive the relationship was. It was so abnormal, how could it possibly happen again. Won't she learn, was it just me etc.

I thought about all the RSs before me that I knew of, little fragments most.

They all suddenly made sense! It all fit.

The (1.5 year) boyfriend who 'just never called her again, after her birthday night'.

The guy she fell in love with and moved to Scotland to be with, only to return quite quickly.

The man she was seeing for 5 months who's wife/girlfriend was 5 months pregnant with his baby. (I thought the man had seduced her, the cad, ha ha ha ha)

Her 'best friend' who she went out with when she was younger, had 4 affairs behind his back and an abortion.

These are just the ones I have some knowledge about! mainly from her ex boyfriend. The sad truth, and the proof unfortunately is that we were not in any way 'special', we were irrelevant, those before us were irrelevant, it was just about her. Nothing personal, just a fantasy object for a while. Hardly human to her, at the end a hated object.

She is going through the same fantasy/trauma bonding/mirroring/bull. Crisis, abuse, no love, no empathy, love to hate etc that she does everytime.

What can she get, how can she control, when will her behaviours destroy the new victim and she is forced to move on. No friends, no past, no future.

In truth, we are lucky to have lost them, really lucky to have retained our health and sanity. She convinced me it was everyone else who was the problem, but I could see clearly once out of the FOG, it was just her.

I still am amazed that she felt soo black inside.

[lipstick]

Hi Tincup,

This is a great post. I often wonder about my exBPDbf and why he stays in an abusive marriage with his (also BPD) violent spouse. They've been married 25 years. He was supposed to divorce her to marry me. Yeah... .that obviously didn't happen!   

I sit and ruminate about how she gets a constant free pass to be as heinous as she wishes. Isn't "split black" like I am. I'm the Devil and she can do no wrong.

So like you - I would also like reassurance that the patterns repeat... .it still really stings sometimes knowing that I was tossed aside for such a less-than-quality person.

[maternal]

The pattern that I experienced with my ex happened before me and while I can't ever say for sure, it will very likely repeat itself after me.  He seems to have about 4 years max in relationships.

I have him blocked on all fronts, but because we have mutual acquaintances, I've seen a few of his recent Instagram posts pass through my Twitter feed, he's waifing it up, trolling for sympathy and letting folks know how horrible I was to him (just as he said about his ex-wife when I met him).

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.  I don't care.  I can't care.  Yes, I have my moments as we all do, but I can't waste energy on this dude anymore.

[Lostone1314]

feeling same way my ex undiagnosed BPD gf is still with my replacement 15 months and going... from pics ive seen they look happy and i know he is way more passive than i am... plus he is a downgrade in looks so her being beautiful will have more control over him.add to this his increased wealth over mine and it looks like they will be together for a very long time    longer there together more i believe it was me that triggered her abuse and infidelity  

[apollotech]

Will she be the same way with the next guy? Or was I just "special" and triggered her?

Tincup,

Yes, if you were able to trigger her that indicates that you were special; she had a deep emotional attachment with you (yes, I know that you were saying that sarcastically). And she may have the same deep emotional attachment with the next guy, and they may stay together until death does them part. Knowing what you know about her, what you experienced with her, do you think that the relationship, if it lasts, will be a bed of roses? I implore you to go read on the Staying Board for a bit. God Bless those dedicated people over there; they work terribly hard to maintain their relationships/marriages to their respective BPD partners.

[valet]

Hey Tincup, I understand what you're going through. I had those same worries after my pwBPD ended our relationship. 'Wasn't I special? Wasn't I good enough? Could someone else be better than me for her?'

It's a difficult dilemma to face for any person at the end of any relationship.

To me, no one is special, and everyone is special, both at the same time. The important thing to focus on in either case is yourself.

Do you feel happy now, and what can you do to ensure that you are?

[Schermarhorn]

If their relationship lasts longer, its just because the non just can put up with more abuse.

[letmeout]

If their relationship lasts longer, its just because the non just can put up with more abuse.

I think it also depends on how much abuse you took when you were growing up. If that is what you were use to, then you would be able to take a real pounding from an abusive partner for quite a while.

I am living abused free now, and I intend to keep it that way!

[rotiroti]

If their relationship lasts longer, its just because the non just can put up with more abuse.

I think it also depends on how much abuse you took when you were growing up. If that is what you were use to, then you would be able to take a real pounding from an abusive partner for quite a while.

I am living abused free now, and I intend to keep it that way!

Thanks for that, feels good to have left after 8 days

[Lostone1314]

If their relationship lasts longer, its just because the non just can put up with more abuse.

I think it also depends on how much abuse you took when you were growing up. If that is what you were use to, then you would be able to take a real pounding from an abusive partner for quite a while.

I am living abused free now, and I intend to keep it that way!

I had an abusive father but i was no saint either... i took abuse but not quietly for 2 years out of a 4 year relationship... she was at her worst when drunk  

[disorderedsociety]

There is no sure way to tell what patterns will develop.  My replacement doesn't trigger my ex like I did.  He's much more repressed and lonely. And he doesn't have a sense of boundaries like I do.  So in many ways he's a better fit.  I knew he was a better fit for my ex, even while my ex was cultivating him when we were together.  And I knew that they would get married when I left her.  I understood that she didn't want someone to love her.  Just to tolerate her.

Will he be treated better?  Probably not.  Will he have a partner who can provide understanding, compassion, empathy, self sacrifice and responsibility?  Probably not.  The issue is that I became a toxic trigger to my ex and visa versa.  My closure and detachment is attainable only when I detach from what may be occuring in my ex's life.  The projected shame of the Disorder tells me that the longer my replacement stays with my ex, the better he is and the less of a person I am.  This simply is not true.  It's simply a factor of the level of trigger and the tolerance towards the Disorders.  

I needed a partner and friend.  My ex would never be able to really provide what I needed.  And the more this became apparent the more tense and toxic we became.   Freedom is detachment from my ex.  So, I try and often pray for their happiness.  I radically accept (which hurts like a motherf-ker) that they are in "love" and they are good for each other.

Remember!  A truely self actualized and mentally aware and healthy person probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few weeks with my ex.  I lasted three years.  So increased length of interaction with a gfwBPD does not correlate with mental health, success, or anything on those lines.  I was not better than the previous guys before me, and I am not better than my replacement.  I was just the next guy to put down his money at the kissing booth.

But I do know that it is very very very unlikely that she will find herself cured one day.  It just doesn't happen.   Happiness is very unlikely.   Look at the poll of people who are asked if they would do it again, would they marry their ex.  If you take out the kids factor, it's a lobsided... ."HELL NO."   But I give my cheating ex and her new cheating husband, a 50/50 chance that in the end, they will survive in misery.  I'd say 45 percent chance of divorce.  And about a 2-5 percent chance of murder/suicide.

Most resonant story so far

She commented on him before I went nc... ."he seems passive"

Hmm... .Obvious contrast to me. I did have some sense of boundaries but not enough to keep from picking up the negative feelings.

[Pretty Woman]

Apollotech has a great point... .the more you triggered them, the more you meant.  I do believe that. Truly, I do.

Mine constantly asked ":)o you really love me?" right up to the very end.

But then they demon-ize you to everyone they know, and I'm sorry. Right there, that trumps everything for me. They paint you as a beast, when all you did was love them.

I am fortunate to be friends with her ex as well as an ex of her ex and yes, patterns repeat... .timing differs but same shyt another day... .and person.

My ex left me in 2013 for an ex up North. She had once told me this ex's aunt told her "My niece can do so much better than you". I mean she told me this.

I believe they do tell the truth of what people have said... .to gain sympathy... .but they are trueisms.

So she leaves me for this ex she has been having an emotional affair with, breaks up her marriage, dumps her and comes back to me.

This woman, this ex hadn't dated her in six years and was on off with her for years.  I hated this person for the longest time. Now I see she was just as stupid as the rest of us   She fell for the same song and dance... .years later.

My ex keeps tabs on everyone. She never leaves a relationship alone.  Hence, yes, there are patterns.

[jhkbuzz]

My closure and detachment is attainable only when I detach from what may be occuring in my ex's life.  The projected shame of the Disorder tells me that the longer my replacement stays with my ex, the better he is and the less of a person I am.  This simply is not true.  

Can you explain the sentence in bold a little more?

[jhkbuzz]

If their relationship lasts longer, its just because the non just can put up with more abuse.

I think it also depends on how much abuse you took when you were growing up. If that is what you were use to, then you would be able to take a real pounding from an abusive partner for quite a while.

YES! ^^^

[SummerStorm]

She commented on him before I went nc... ."he seems passive"

Hmm... .Obvious contrast to me. I did have some sense of boundaries but not enough to keep from picking up the negative feelings.

Here's what she said about her boyfriend, compared to me.  I texted the guy pretty extensively while she was in the hospital and after, and I can confirm that her descriptions are accurate:

1. He is oblivious to the world around him / I saw EVERYTHING and called her out on her lies

2. He didn't notice that she was cutting again, despite the band-aids all over her wrists and arms / I knew right away

3. His idea of doing something sweet for her is buying her a video game / Mine was writing her a romantic letter, explaining everything I loved about her

4. He cancels plans and sits around with her in bed when she doesn't feel like doing stuff / I made other plans or just stopped making plans with her because I was tired of her canceling all the time

5. He thought smoking pot was a great idea, but it caused her to start smoking it all the time and risk losing her job / I don't do drugs and spent weeks telling her to stop smoking

6. He just basically allowed her to move herself into his place and not help pay rent or bills / I told her I was going to buy a house, get settled, and then work out a plan for what she was going to help pay for

One thing he actually told me was, "I wish I could have been more open to her.  I didn't see how things were affecting her.  I was working all the time and barely saw her."

Her idealization of him has lasted longer than her idealization of me.  Having said that, it hasn't been smooth sailing for him, either.  She acted like a spoiled brat at a party that she didn't want to go to and then got physical with him for the first time that night.  The next few weeks were "stressful," according to him.  Of course, he is also oblivious to the fact that she moved herself in and lied to everyone and said he asked her to move in.  He also said that she seemed to really like living with him, but all of the problems started once she moved herself in, so... .  

[Lostone1314]

My closure and detachment is attainable only when I detach from what may be occuring in my ex's life.  The projected shame of the Disorder tells me that the longer my replacement stays with my ex, the better he is and the less of a person I am.  This simply is not true.  

Can you explain the sentence in bold a little more?

i think what there saying here is that PwBPD have a way of making you feel ashamed for not living up to their expectations of you and for tolerating abuse... its projected shame cause they feel ashamed of them selves cause they are aware what they do is very wrong but cant stop its who they are and they hate themselves for it...

the longer they stay with your replacement the more shameful you feel cause if your replacement is lasting longer then they must be better than you...

i struggle with this very concept daily... my replacement is a 57 year old obese physically unattractive  wealthy man while im a 50 yr old slim average attractiveness middle income man... it makes me wonder if my exgf who is very attractive by any mans standard can love an obese unattractive man what does that say about me ? i must be far more unattractive...

will she cheat,lie,sext,abuse on him ? or was it just me ? how much of a difference will his wealth make ?

[rotiroti]

My closure and detachment is attainable only when I detach from what may be occuring in my ex's life.  The projected shame of the Disorder tells me that the longer my replacement stays with my ex, the better he is and the less of a person I am.  This simply is not true.  

Can you explain the sentence in bold a little more?

i think what there saying here is that PwBPD have a way of making you feel ashamed for not living up to their expectations of you and for tolerating abuse... its projected shame cause they feel ashamed of them selves cause they are aware what they do is very wrong but cant stop its who they are and they hate themselves for it...

the longer they stay with your replacement the more shameful you feel cause if your replacement is lasting longer then they must be better than you...

i struggle with this very concept daily... my replacement is a 57 year old obese physically unattractive  wealthy man while im a 50 yr old slim average attractiveness middle income man... it makes me wonder if my exgf who is very attractive by any mans standard can love an obese unattractive man what does that say about me ? i must be far more unattractive...

will she cheat,lie,sext,abuse on him ? or was it just me ? how much of a difference will his wealth make ?

There's another thread that discusses exactly this, about if physical attractions really matter or not.

Bottom line from that thread is that attachment is the primary target for someone with pwBPD. It makes sense since it's one of the etiologies of their disease (the lack of attachment). If anything if a replacement lasts longer it's likely that they're able to provide an attachment for longer due to weak personal boundaries and sense of self

[antelope]

Will she be the same way with the next guy?

why would she be different with the next guy? 

think about your journey to here... .think about all the reading, learning, and growing you've done in the aftermath of the breakup, and how arduous and long of a task that has been... .

think about how different your perspective is now about her, your life, who you were, and who you are now... .

think about all the personal inventory you've taken, all the crying, bargaining, anger, fear etc you've allowed yourself to experience... .

what has she done?

has she ever come up for air, or has she always been at least neck deep in a relationship?

has she ever shown you true introspection and remorse over her previous errors in relationships?

how many countless times have her words and actions been in completely different places?

if you have established this is a pattern with her, how entrenched are those behaviors now as an adult?

has she ever even gotten her feet wet in therapy, and if so, has she implemented any of the insight gained from those sessions?

--change nothing, and nothing changes--

^that is what you need to cling to, b/c that is the brutal truth... .

this is who they were before you met them, this is who they were when you were with them, and unless they go through intense personal battles like you have, then this is who she will be in the next relationship, and every one after that

[rotiroti]

--change nothing, and nothing changes--

Fantastic post antelope! And to continue antelope's message of moving forward with life, if your partner lasts longer or shorter with the replacement shouldn't even matter. They're out of our lives now and hopefully we'll have learned to respect ourselves and to be able to recognize the redflags. Both in ourselves and others.

[rotiroti]

--change nothing, and nothing changes--

Fantastic post antelope! And to continue antelope's message of moving forward with life, if your partner lasts longer or shorter with the replacement shouldn't even matter. They're out of our lives now and hopefully we'll have learned to respect ourselves not to yearn for abuse and to be able to recognize the redflags. Both in ourselves and others.

[Lostone1314]

has she ever come up for air, or has she always been at least neck deep in a relationship?

always in relationships... she has branch swung from one to another since leaving her one and only long term relationship that lasted 15 years

has she ever shown you true introspection and remorse over her previous errors in relationships?

never and always blamed the previous partners... i got no apology,no remorse or regrets,no empathy

how many countless times have her words and actions been in completely different places?

after the honeymoon at around 12 months her actions did not meet her words

if you have established this is a pattern with her, how entrenched are those behaviors now as an adult?

shes not an adult but a child trapped in adult body

has she ever even gotten her feet wet in therapy, and if so, has she implemented any of the insight gained from those sessions?

never and although her words to me upon breaking up and before i learned of her cheating were

"im dissapointed in myself and i dont know whats wrong with me" she did nothing to fix herself except to jump imeadiately into new relationship


this is who they were before you met them, this is who they were when you were with them, and unless they go through intense personal battles like you have, then this is who she will be in the next relationship, and every one after that

this i what i need to believe but most likely wont till my replacement fails... he is the perfect fit... he drinks,parties,is wealthy so can afford constant date nights,vacations,gifts,has a larger social circle some of which are in common with her,he is just as untidy and wont care if she wont help with chores cause he doesnt do them either,he wont care if she wont contribute financialy cause he is wealthy and doesnt need her to meet him half way and he will worship her for eternity because she is very beautiful and she knows this

i cant see her abusing him it would be like killing the golden goose... she said "your not worth the finanacial convienience" but he is despite his physical appearance she will stay with him so long as he does what hes told and continues to idolize her... if she gets bored she can always have others on the side without consequence cause like me he will never know and if he did he wont leave her she is the most beautiful women hes had or will ever have

i couldnt i wanted more than she had to offer which was just Sex

[apollotech]

this i what i need to believe but most likely wont till my replacement fails.

Lostone,

I am lost here Lostone, why are you basing your beliefs on the outcome of her new relationship? This sounds to me like your own personal self-esteem/self-worth issue, neither of which are tied to anyone else on the planet. Those are intrinsic to one's self.

[Lostone1314]

this i what i need to believe but most likely wont till my replacement fails.

Lostone,

I am lost here Lostone, why are you basing your beliefs on the outcome of her new relationship? This sounds to me like your own personal self-esteem/self-worth issue, neither of which are tied to anyone else on the planet. Those are intrinsic to one's self.

SELF WORTH SHOT  : This is why

your not worth the financial convienience

your going to grow to be a short fat old man

your hobbiy is an embarrasement

your fault i didnt orgasm boy did i cop it when she didnt

dont you want to look beautiful for your girlfriend ( insisting i hit gym)

you dont understand woman

you will never find one as beautiful as me to love you

i could go on but this was the worst of it... add to this my repalcement is a man i know,a drinker,unhealthy,older,less attractive physicaly... the way i see it if a beautiful woman finds him more attractive than me then what other woman is going to want me

[disorderedsociety]

this i what i need to believe but most likely wont till my replacement fails.

Lostone,

I am lost here Lostone, why are you basing your beliefs on the outcome of her new relationship? This sounds to me like your own personal self-esteem/self-worth issue, neither of which are tied to anyone else on the planet. Those are intrinsic to one's self.

SELF WORTH SHOT  : This is why

your not worth the financial convienience

your going to grow to be a short fat old man

your hobbiy is an embarrasement

your fault i didnt orgasm boy did i cop it when she didnt

dont you want to look beautiful for your girlfriend ( insisting i hit gym)

you dont understand woman

you will never find one as beautiful as me to love you

i could go on but this was the worst of it... add to this my repalcement is a man i know,a drinker,unhealthy,older,less attractive physicaly... the way i see it if a beautiful woman finds him more attractive than me then what other woman is going to want me

Um... This may sound like a cop out in your depressed state but the most attractive people, hands down, are the ones who love themselves. It radiates.

Does a BPD affected person love themselves? Far from it

Does someone who willingly buys into their sh-t? No.

Do you? Enough to not go back yeah?

[Lostone1314]

this i what i need to believe but most likely wont till my replacement fails.

Lostone,

I am lost here Lostone, why are you basing your beliefs on the outcome of her new relationship? This sounds to me like your own personal self-esteem/self-worth issue, neither of which are tied to anyone else on the planet. Those are intrinsic to one's self.

SELF WORTH SHOT  : This is why

your not worth the financial convienience

your going to grow to be a short fat old man

your hobbiy is an embarrasement

your fault i didnt orgasm boy did i cop it when she didnt

dont you want to look beautiful for your girlfriend ( insisting i hit gym)

you dont understand woman

you will never find one as beautiful as me to love you

i could go on but this was the worst of it... add to this my repalcement is a man i know,a drinker,unhealthy,older,less attractive physicaly... the way i see it if a beautiful woman finds him more attractive than me then what other woman is going to want me

Um... This may sound like a cop out in your depressed state but the most attractive people, hands down, are the ones who love themselves. It radiates.

Does a BPD affected person love themselves? Far from it

Does someone who willingly buys into their sh-t? No.

Do you? Enough to not go back yeah?

Theres no going back been NC for a year and that wont change ever... i do love myself just not sure that a woman would cause of the ___ my ex pulled... hell i dont even know if she is BPD or just an abusive alcoholic.

i feel that my lack of $$,large social circle and lack of drinking/partying may inhibit my worth to woman as they seem to all want a man to provide for them with little or no return or something transactional