My intent of the thread regarding "Extreme Compassion" is not to critcize anyone. I stated that I feel it's very easy to slip into this but it might not be helpful in my opinion to linger at that stage at our own expense. Compassion is good though, it's the extreme that I am commenting on. If a member thinks more about their ex and has a love link with their ex's struggles with a huge emotional investment with someone they aren't even in a relationship with I just felt that focusing more on their personal struggles and detaching might benefit them in the long run more.
I see the point.
There are a couple of words floating in this conversation:
compassion - concern about someone plight and wanting to help themempathy - understanding how someone else see things and why the make sense to themanger - having a strong feeling of being upset or annoyeddetachment - emotional numbing or dissociation, depersonalizationreality - the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of themAnd I'll add:
betrayal trauma - deep emotional wound when a someone who is depended upon for survival or well-being significantly violate that person’ s trust splitting - all-or-nothing thinking, the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many peoplewisemind - the balancing and rationalization of ones emotions and rational thoughts So, in looking at these terms, where are we and where do we want to be (a question to everyone)?
I believe members come here with betrayal trauma. Betrayal trauma theory predicts that the degree to which a negative event represents a betrayal by a trusted or needed other will influence the way in which that events is processed and remembered. Most of the Leaving Board members live this and there is certainly distortion associated with it.
We can react to betrayal trauma in a lot of ways but generally it overwhelms our logical mind and we struggle with it emotionally. Hurt and a sense of loss are probably at the center of this for many of us, but some avoid this by reacting with anger - a emotion that is easier to process. And some of us bounce back and forth between hurt and anger.
To heal this, generally we have to force ourselves to face the more balanced view of reality (of which empathy is a big part) and detach from the extreme aspects of our own emotions - recognize that they are, if fact, extreme.
We go in the wrong direction if we take the betrayal trauma distortions and split the situation even further, or if we take the cover emotions and fan them to be hotter.
Wisemind is a state where we finally balance, and most importantly, rationalize (eliminate the conflict) between the logic and the emotion.
What are some other thoughts?
love this Skip! you always keep me on my toes and thinking.
very insightful linking betrayal trauma to the majority of members of the leaving board. this was definitely where i was at when i began my journey here. and Skip i agree that while in the stage of betrayal trauma, that people can "split" and react with anger. However, what Awakening One is saying, and something I wholly agree with, is that many people on L5 also "split" in the other direction--showing "extreme compassion", either denying anger or not able to create proper boundaries for themselves. this keeps them stuck and more susceptible to recycling or being further hurt by ex's in my opinion.
i don't think anger is bad when expressed in a healthy way. i don't think it is negative as long as its energy is allowed to do what it was meant to do, which is to establish strong personal boundaries and protect us. and i definitely don't think it is a lesser emotion than compassion. and as radical as it may sound to some, i think compassion can be just as dangerous and misused as anger can be to detaching and healing. there is a lot of anger on the L5 boards, and it can be argued that some of this is unhealthy. likewise, i feel there is at least an equal amount of misunderstood or misplaced "compassion". Compassion itself is beautiful, but when spoken of too early, when we really aren't detached at all, it can be a cover for people still attached to codependency, savior-ness, vulnerable narcissism, or simply a way to avoid seeing the r/s as it truly was. Both compassion and anger have to be understood. It's important to understand that Anger comes first in recovery though... .or it should, so that you have strong boundaries set and you feel safe. Then, when you feel safe you can feel compassionate without worry of being attached. this is my understanding. i feel having a healthy dose of anger actually protected me to the point that now i am developing compassion--that is both *real* and *detached*.
one thing i have definitely learned from these boards is how to have compassion. and i'm grateful to be reminded of this when browsing posts. i also tend to post most often to offer people strength as i feel i have a strong perspective. i tend to work with people's anger and explore it as i think it's a vital stage of recovery, rather than say simple "let it go"--every emotion is a gift with a message. including anger. sure, i've let go of tons of anger and glad i have, but before i did let go i *learned* from it. anger repaired my damage ego. helped me find a healthy love relationship. anger made sure i laughed at my ex's fake attempts to reconnect with me long after i'd gone NC. so now i can let go because these things aren't such a problem any more. but if and when i do run into toxic individuals again, it won't even take much anger to keep them away since i've honored it's message in the past ("stay away from toxic people".
Quote from AG's post:
Let's talk about quote on quote healthy people for a second. When you read almost any piece of literature about BPD it will state "Healthy people will not date them". Why do you think that none of us Non's can even talk to others who haven't shared the experience we have had. I bet you that anyone here who has talked about this nonsense felt immediately devalued. They will not even comprehend it or comprehend why would we put up with this please read |. Believe me I have spoken to others and they feel like "She is crazy just get her ass out of here" "WOW good riddens I would never even date someone like that". A quote on quote healthy person will not explore any type of compassion for them especially when it comes to dating which is exactly what we are discussing here. Maybe friendship they might but even that is far fetched. A quote on quote healthy person will toss them away and say Oh hell no she is crazy get her ass away from me.
Do you think the quote on quote healthy portion of society would even be reading on here? Would they be studying. Would they have felt the compassion when they learned they're partner had BPD(codependent term) aka is crazy(Normal term). Would they even feel pain from getting these people out of they're lives? Seems to me that AO is exploring a part of himself that is unchartered.
AG, I consider myself "healthy", but obviously not perfect. I know this may raise eyebrows however i don't want to take too much of a tangent in the conversation (i've discussed in previous threads). So, just know that I feel that I was generally emotionally healthy before my xuBPD r/s, and I feel mostly healthy now. And I'd say the majority of the r/s i felt healthy, although towards the end and during the first 1.5 years afterwards i surely was not healthy or in a good space. I'm not really codependent, not much of a people pleaser, can't identify really bad FOO issues contributing to the r/s (i have other unsavory reasons :-)). So i will try to answer some of the questions you posed if you can believe i am relatively "healthy".
First, I think a mistake many codependent nons make is assuming that "healthy" people are perfect, that they don't make mistakes. As if someone healthy has never had her boundaries crossed ever, has never made any bad choices, or that they know immediately how to deal with toxic situations and people. They don't, or rather i should say, i didn't. This whole relationship was a big learning experience for me. Think about all the "healthy" people you try and explain your r/s to who don't understand at all or even believe what you are telling them--their ignorance means that a pwBPD would fool them initially just as they fooled you. Don't believe any healthy person who says they would never entertain being with a pwBPD when they know nothing of the illness and thus would never be able to identify it until it's too late and they were already emotionally attached. i don't think i experience the first abandonment episode, or unwarranted anger until at least 6-8 months into the r/s--many of my ex's r/s didn't even last this long--she behaved better with me at first for some reason.
Healthy people date pwBPD all the time--it's just that they may not be as susceptible to devaluing, be more hip to the games being played or more likely leave of their own accord (i did). I also have zero guilt for leaving. Although i experienced every ounce of pain during separation as other people who may be codependent, my anger was never self directed and I was able to see that I wasn't the cause of the issues much faster than some.
I feel like a quote on quote healthy person
and i read on this site too much! And while i feel like i may help someone here and there i know that i will need to do a cleanse soon and take (another break).
And regarding whether i feel compassion after learning about BPD--initially, no. not much at all. and i don't think it would have been too healthy in the very beginning for me to feel this way. she was still intent on punishing me and i was still too raw and attached. anger and gut instinct helped me to not be susceptible to her needs or manipulations. but now, 2.5 years out, yes i am developing some compassion. and it feels good because it's not forced. and it feels real because i don't want anything from her anymore. my anger made damn sure of that!
