I started to get worried. So I answered...

[willy45]

OK. So, my ex has called me non-stop for 5 days straight. I cracked and answered. I was freaked out with the insecant calling. I started to get worried. So I answered... .Ok. I'm going to try to not beat myself here about that. It was stupid. I know that. Yesterday someone I admire was gushing about what a genius she was and what a superstar she was. That was a trigger for sure for me and weakened me. I should have just told him I didn't want to talk about it. But I didn't. That was mistake number 1. It hurt. Mistake number 2 was being weak and answering.

I asked her if anything was wrong. She asked me why I asked. I told her because she was calling me all the time. She said she was fine, just wanted to catch up. We ended up catching up and having a really nice conversation. Then the veneer wore off. She started to open up about how miserable she is. How lonely she is. And on and on. I don't know if she and her boyfriend broke up. I didn't want to go there. But I kind of figure that's what's going on based on all I've read on these boards.

Some instructive and kind of scary things were said though... .Enlightening I guess in a way. She is undiagnosed but said the following few statements:

1) She told me she has 'rage triggers' like her Mom and that maybe it was genetic.

2) She told me that in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, she is at the bottom... .constant survival mode.

3) She hates everyone she works with and hates her job.

4) She kept saying: You hate me.

5) She COMPLETELY forgot that we spoke a few months ago. Like, completely forgot it. It caused me so much pain. She completely 100% forgot. Even though we had several conversation and they lasted hours. So weird.

6) I told her how her contact made me feel and how it hurt every time. I asked her why she didn't feel the same way. She told me that she 'compartmentalizes' everything because of her traumatic past. She puts everything in a box in her mind if anything hurts her. And so she doesn't feel it.

Anyhow, another scary insight into her mind. Scarier though is my reaction. I am so sad... .I miss her.

[Tausk]

I am so sad... .I miss her.

Hey Willy:  I'm sorry that you're hurting.  I understand.  Sometimes I miss her so much that I honestly don't know how I'll be able to live without her.   And like your recent conversation my ex becaome someone I didn't recognize anymore.   The last time I talked with my ex was at a counselor.  We were supposed to be taking time off and discussing if we wanted to get back together, but by the time we met, she had already cultivated the cheating replacement into place.

But what saddened me the most is how she responded in the Detached Protector mode, or angry child mode, or punitive parent mode.  Each one with a different and very very skewed view of what really happened.  It was positively delusional, and I was so saddened to finally understand the depths of how her mind worked with extreme confabulated after only a few months off.

She remembered things totally differently.  All my statements were skewed against me.  She was a different person and all her Disordered survival behaviors presented someone who has no real grasp of what is happening on a day to day basis.  She simply fooled me at the beginning in the idealization stage, and the FOG kept me from seeing much of the rest.    

And I miss my ex as well.  But the truth is that I miss only part of my ex.  The abandoned child who would mirror me and react in the delight of a three-year old when she was happy.   But she is just as much, or even more the other modes that were presented.  She is dissociative, and in the end, the Punitive Parent, Angry Child, and Detached Protector was her identity for the majority of our time together.  

And IMHO for pwBPD, as a general rule, the above three modes dominate a bit more with each passing day.  Think about lonely cat ladies or mean curmudgeons who yell at little kids.   Yes, the abandoned child will pop up in a new interaction, but eventually pwBPD just collapse into themselves.   So, in reality,  what I miss is only fraction of the composite of my exgfwBPD.

My ex  is similar to Heroin,  in that I cannot separate the ecstasy from the caustic addictive destruction of the junk.  And I know if I didn't quit, I'd end up dying from the interaction.

Knowledge of the Disorder hurts, but provides a basis for us to recovery.  Our exes never have that option.  They simply must survive.

Be well,

T

[SeekerofTruth]

She simply fooled me at the beginning in the idealization stage, and the FOG kept me from seeing much of the rest.    

And I miss my ex as well.  But the truth is that I miss only part of my ex.    

My ex  is similar to Heroin,  in that I cannot separate the ecstasy from the caustic addictive destruction of the junk.  And I know if I didn't quit, I'd end up dying from the interaction.

Knowledge of the Disorder hurts, but provides a basis for us to recovery.  Our exes never have that option.  They simply must survive.

Good stuff Tausk

[patientandclear]

Willy -- that sounds like a conversation in which your ex was honest, which is an accomplishment.  You honored her by offering a non-judgmental forum in which to share what she really felt.  She honored you by sharing her real feelings, even embarrassing ones.

It's pretty hard to have a meaningful relationship with someone who is in survival mode at all times and dissociates events (entire conversations) that cause her to feel bad or sad.  I think if my ex were able to talk with me in a way as self-aware as your ex did, it would help me to accept that it just is what it is.  He cannot do much different or better than he does; he cannot will his way to not having the reactions that he has.

I completely understand missing her more after that.  Just feeling that it is very sad and that there is no good solution may be the best response.

[KeepOnGoing]

I am so sad... .I miss her.[/b]

My ex  is similar to Heroin,  in that I cannot separate the ecstasy from the caustic addictive destruction of the junk.  And I know if I didn't quit, I'd end up dying from the interaction.

Knowledge of the Disorder hurts, but provides a basis for us to recovery.  Our exes never have that option.  They simply must survive.

Be well,

T

Thanks for this. My therapist keeps tell me that I'm just addicted to the trauma repetition. She says it's no different than a drug. Boy oh boy who ever would've thought that I would be battling this addiction.

[willy45]

Yeah. It was a moment of clarity on her part. One which I'm sure will quickly go away... .

But for me, it was a realization that despite how brilliant she is, she is really ill. She basically described herself as borderline without saying the actual words. Rage triggers, chronic emptiness, compartmentalization of feelings, disassociations, self hatred, basically everything. Of course she never really apologized for the way she treated me. Although I did explain how her rage made me feel.

Now I'm most concerned about myself. She told me that she is never going to stop contacting me, despite my very clearly explaining how it made me feel. And her disacosiation means she will probably forget we even had this conversation. But I know that in one of her compartments, she knows that I know. And that will boil up. And just the fact that somewhere she knows I know means she will reject me constantly and the fight her way back. She cannot maintain her facade around me. And I'm assuming this means I will be her trigger. It's sad for her.

[LettingGo14]

Now I'm most concerned about myself.

Willy -- this is the key.  Not her.  What is your plan for you?   You do have choices, my friend.  What steps are you taking for yourself with (a) boundaries, (b) self-focus, and (c) moving forward?

[seeking balance]

Now I'm most concerned about myself.

Willy -- this is the key.  Not her.  What is your plan for you?   You do have choices, my friend.  What steps are you taking for yourself with (a) boundaries, (b) self-focus, and (c) moving forward?

LettingGo is giving you guidelines for a solid plan to move forward with your life Willy.  I am sorry you are hurting right now; I wish I could say letting go of her is not going to hurt - but it will.  The conversation you had is about as much closure as I have ever seen around here.

- she admitted she is always in survival mode

- she showed lack of care for you or any boundaries you need to heal

- you are hurting

I honestly don't think I have seen a clearer set of facts - please take what LettingGo posted seriously and work on a plan for you - to heal and start having a life of happiness.  Yes, there will be pain - however, I also know that on the other side of pain is freedom and happiness - it is real, solid and it is good 

Peace,

SB

[willy45]

Yeah. This just sucks. I was seriously doing really well before we spoke. I've said this a million times before. I even told her that her contacting me made me have to relive the break up over and over again and how damaging it was to me. She doesn't care. But if nothing else, this recent experience really drove home to me that this is a very mentally ill person.

But What the heck, now I have to grieve again! I'm so tired of it. And now I have to go NC again! Ack. I was seriously at the point where I didn't feel the need to be 'NC'. I thought the contact had stopped. That it was over. It was a great feeling. I felt free. Felt good about myself. And now back to the start.

[1989]

Hi again, Willy 

There is a saying that is used a lot on BPDF "contact=pain" and it is the absolute truth!

I went through every scenario in my head where he might have reason to call, including a genuine death bed call from him; and when I reached the place (it took a couple of months) where I knew that I wouldn't even take that call I wrote him a final email and told him that he would never hear from me again and that I wished him well.  I wanted him to know that it was over for me for good so that he would understand why I had changed all of my numbers and blocked him on the only social networking site I was on (I also changed emails after I sent it).  I didn't do it as a "warning" or as an attempt to hear from him again, I did it because I had been "involved" with him on and off for over 20 years and   I realized it would never end until I ended it. 

I used the memory of that last painful experience with him to keep me on my path.  I no longer have any desire to hear from him again.  There is nothing he could do to ever change that.

When YOU are done it will be over; if you leave it up to her to "end" it there is a chance that it will never end.

[Infared]

1989

"When YOU are done it will be over; if you leave it up to her to "end" it there is a chance that it will never end."

AMEN! (There is more than a chance!  )

[willy45]

Yeah.

I now have only two choices.

1) Learn to have some kind of 'friendship' with my ex: I know what this will be about. It will be about her. Me being her emotional 'backup' plan when things fall apart in her life.

2) Change all my contact info: I will need to change all my phone number and email addresses. I'm not sure if this is even feasible. My business number is the same as my main number. I don't even know who has it and who doesn't. My email I can't change.

She said she will never stop contacting me. And rather than being angry at her for willfully violating that demand, I now realize that she actually has no control over it. Explaining is not going to work. It hasn't worked in the past. I have tried, endlessly. Every time her contact ramps up, I eventually cave. I get triggered. And I cave. All the ___ty feelings come back that I have worked through over and over again. My stomach hurts again. I don't eat. I don't sleep.

The difference between now than before is that I am not angry at her for violating my boundaries over and over again. It is much worse. I now know that she is just very ill. She can't help it. Literally. She has no control over it. She disassociates. She compartmentalizes. She literally forgets. It is not so much that she doesn't care about me or love me. She says that over and over again. It is that she can't stop it. She doesn't remember talking to me. She compartmentalizes everything. This is the way she is. It is quite scary. I don't really understand it. But, I understand the impacts. And those impacts are rage and disassociation. And I just can't be in a relationship like that.

Bah... .I'm really sad right now. 

[Infared]

Yeah.

I now have only two choices.

1) Learn to have some kind of 'friendship' with my ex: I know what this will be about. It will be about her. Me being her emotional 'backup' plan when things fall apart in her life.

2) Change all my contact info: I will need to change all my phone number and email addresses. I'm not sure if this is even feasible. My business number is the same as my main number. I don't even know who has it and who doesn't. My email I can't change.

She said she will never stop contacting me. And rather than being angry at her for willfully violating that demand, I now realize that she actually has no control over it. Explaining is not going to work. It hasn't worked in the past. I have tried, endlessly. Every time her contact ramps up, I eventually cave. I get triggered. And I cave. All the ___ty feelings come back that I have worked through over and over again. My stomach hurts again. I don't eat. I don't sleep.

The difference between now than before is that I am not angry at her for violating my boundaries over and over again. It is much worse. I now know that she is just very ill. She can't help it. Literally. She has no control over it. She disassociates. She compartmentalizes. She literally forgets. It is not so much that she doesn't care about me or love me. She says that over and over again. It is that she can't stop it. She doesn't remember talking to me. She compartmentalizes everything. This is the way she is. It is quite scary. I don't really understand it. But, I understand the impacts. And those impacts are rage and disassociation. And I just can't be in a relationship like that.

Bah... .I'm really sad right now.  

I picked door number 2.  I made a decision that my pwBPD was an evil alien that was trying to kill me. I just got to that point where it was raw survival for me. The pain, the lies, the cruelty was consistently so great. It was killing me. I could have empathy in my heart, but not show ANY empathy any longer to this damaged entity.  It's years later,and  if she walks up to me in a public place I look away, and look for my escape. If she comes in a restaurant where I am I leave more than enough money on the table and I head for the door, and safety. It's my life, my sanity and my safe-being. It got so bad, that I will not ever compromise that again because of someone who is or has the potential to be that mean and cruel. I hope that she is better, but I will not risk MY safety to find out. I know she is most likely still sick, and in the end if I am crossing the street and a drunk is in a car, in a daze, speeding through the crosswalk, am I going to take action to save myself, or am I going to stand there and get run over?  That person is sick too?

This is no different, for me, after what I lived. My situation got to the point where there were no shades of gray. It was totally black and white... .but I guess we all have different experiences, and make the choices that we feel that we need to make for ourselves.

[willy45]

Ack... .I know this. I really do. The brutal thing is that I knew this AND felt this, really truly felt this only 4 days ago. For reals. I was walking down the street feeling great and thought to myself, I'm back! And then, bang. Right back to where I started in terms of feelings. What a bummer.

What I do still know:

1) having a child with her would be a nightmare. I want children.

2) contact from her is terrible for my mental health

3) this will destroy my relationship with my current girlfriend

4) all the old patterns of trying to make sure she doesn't blow up are back... .

5) she told me straight out that she would continue to stalk me no matter what I say

Sorry guys... .Just trying to work through this. There is no longer any doubt in my mind that she is either BPD or has some form of mental illness. The doubt now is my own ability to navigate this again.

[1989]

You don't have to change your numbers (you have stated before that wouldn't be easy due to your job), you just have to get to a point where you are determined to stay on your path.  Treat her calls like a telemarketer, you don't have to return them.  I had decided that if he chose to do handstands in my front yard to get my attention I would shut my drapes.  I went through every scenario so I would know what I would do.

Just to show you something:  I asked him to not contact me again and he said "Okay, but I'm going to call you in 10 years to make sure you're okay.". I didn't know anything about BPD then, but I knew it wasn't because he actually cared how I was doing.  He didn't want me but he was afraid to let me go for fear he might need me again someday.

The best advice I can give you is to remember how you feel right now and the next time she reaches out ask yourself if you ever want to feel like that again.  She hasn't changed, she has nothing new to say, and she won't make your pain go away, so there is no reason to return those calls.

I am very sorry that you are hurting again, but you have started healing before and you will start to heal again.  That you can count on!

[BorisAcusio]

I didn't know anything about BPD then, but I knew it wasn't because he actually cared how I was doing.  He didn't want me but he was afraid to let me go for fear he might need me again someday.

Spot on. I caved in after she pursued me for nearly 4 months. What happened? She offloaded her anxiety on me, made sure that safety net is still there if needed and disappeared. There is no reciprocity here and never will be.  

[Infared]

1989 is right:

"She hasn't changed, she has nothing new to say, and she won't make your pain go away, so there is no reason to return those calls."

Our problem was/is that we thought by picking up the phone that it would relieve our pain. This has as much to do with us as it does them. People that don't immesh with BPD's would have no trouble not picking up the phone. We do.  I meditated on a visual image of putting the phone to my ear was instead me putting a gun to my ear. LOL.

Willy... .you also have something worth saving: you and your new relationship.  We have all gone through exactly how you feel. I identify with your anguish and your need.  We all do.

[BacknthSaddle]

Willy, you helped me tremendously at the beginning of my process. I heard you back then and all you learned, and you helped me to move forward. You don't want this. You don't have to chane your numbers; you can not answer, or occasionally answer just to reinforce that you don't want contact. But change your numbers if you have to. As Boris says, there never was and never will be any reciprocity. She may go so far as to wait til she knows your current relationship is ruined to start the devaluation cycle over again.

[willy45]

Hey Guys,

Yeah. Now I'm really scared. My mind is doing all kinds of crazy... .Fantasies about getting back together with her, fear of her continued stalking, fears that my life is going to be ruined, fears of entering the depression again, fears that I have opened the door to the painful obsessing again. This is not good. It's all back.

And thanks for all the insights guys. Who knows what she is thinking or doing. She certainly doesn't know. She didn't even remember that we spoke last time. She doesn't even remember what I said? She didn't remember the explanation I gave her as to why the contact hurt me.

This is really scary stuff.

[1989]

I guess you need to feel the feelings, but don't worry that they are permanent.  I envision it as being like when you drink too much: the hangover is bad, but as the poison leaves your body you start feeling better. 

You can use these awful feelings to your advantage and remind yourself that living without contact with her feels much better than this.  That's exactly what I did.  Use it.

[patientandclear]

Willy, I am (I hope) just emerging from the same renewed obsessing and anxiety that you are now experiencing because of this contact.

My ex, in a hyper-dysregulated state, basically told me to have a nice life back in December, when I tried to set some limits on the kind of contact I would have with him while he was dating someone else.  OK.  I was in physical shock at this abrupt end but I processed it, accepted it, moved forward.  Fast forward four months, during which I was markedly better (life had meaning, I was able to function in my work and as a mom and a friend) than I had been in previous months of ambiguous, confusing contact with him that I had been willing to tough out because I know about BPD and made him a deal about being long term friends.

He reached out to me three months ago. Sent a meaningful gift and a note that wistfully imagined that it would be nice to catch up.  I was still OK ... .he didn't address the stuff I'd raised in December (probably didn't remember it actually, per your ex's comments), and I wasn't going back in without that stuff addressed.  I just sent a thank you card and a small gift back.  No response to the idea of "catching up" since it wasn't a concrete proposal and he hadn't addressed my boundary issues.

Like I say I was still OK. The door was still shut.

Then he reached out again (from signs I finally started looking for again, while I weighed what to do, it appeared he'd broken up with the woman he'd been seeing ... .predictably, he turned to me and probably to others too).  He made a major gesture which was STILL not addressing my boundary issues -- but this was much harder for me to say no to, as he must have known. I'm sure it never really occurred to him I might say no.  He was pulling out the big emergency guns.

I did say no.  But.  Since then (three months ago) I've been tortured with regrets and doubts.  Like you're saying.

It is really hard to have to be the one to kill these bonds again and again.  Especially when we wanted to badly for them to be real, and permanent.

I can just observed that our ability to lead happy lives seems pretty profoundly compromised by engaging with these overtures.  I would like to get, maybe will get, to the point where I am emotionally disengaged enough that none of it has any impact on me.  I am apparently not there yet.  So -- just wanted to extend some solidarity as one who was doing better, and got deeply unsettled by seemingly meaningful contact.

[willy45]

Thanks Patientandclear. I really appreciate it. I'm a total mess. The thing I fear most is this desrtoying my life. I have so much going on. I have a girlfriend. I feel terrible that I answered the call. I feel terrible that it impacted me the way it has. And I feel terrible that the only real solution out of this is NC, again. She clearly has no regard for my feelings or my interests.

[lost_my_heart]

Willy, I see myself in you. Problem was I married mine. After we separated it took me about six months to get to a point where I wasn't afraid of women and started dating. Then she pops back into my life and I did the stupidest thing possible I took her back and tried to save the marriage, tried to be the best husband to ever walk the earth. Instead she used me and brought me to a point that I was so down she beat me down to the point where I tried to take my life. While I was in the hospital she took all kinds of things out of my house and I lost my car. All because I loved her more than myself. I wish I could say that that was a long time ago but it was two weeks ago. So now I have to be strong I have lost everything and almost my life because of her, so I'm leaving Jacksonville and heading back to my home in central Florida where I have a true support group.

My heart is crushed I still love the heroin that is my wife and I hope soon that I can say that I never want to see her again and mean it.

I wish you the best and please don't follow my path.   

[myself]

I feel for you. It's like she's haunting you, or like no matter how many cracks you fill her wind still gets through. Not sure what you can do except accept. Adapt. Go NC, stay NC, and don't look back. It hurts either way, so which hurts less? Don't let this destroy you. Don't let someone else's instability upset your balance. One of the hardest things I've ever done is cut her off, when I still cared so much about her. But as in your case, she didn't respect any boundaries. Not only mine, but the ones she said were hers, as well as the ones we supposedly shared. So, I let go. She lost me when I did.

My ex was more into being chased than being the one coming after me, but when I stopped chasing her, she came after me until she 'won me back'. Then she soon again ran away/scapegoated me, and it was the final straw. I still wish sometimes to hear from her, for many reasons, but it mostly hurts when she contacts me now so it's a mixed blessing that she stays away. I'm strong enough to not cave in any more, but am a bit envious of those who still hear from their exes. As if it means they still love you. Still trying, in their own ways. I know, it's mostly about need, and control, when they do.

I'm like a book she took out of the library, skimmed through some of it, and discarded. Doesn't face the fines, the damage done, the growth she could have experienced had she followed through. I feel for her, too. But the best thing for us is to move forward as peacefully as possible, without them.

[willy45]

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and I've come up with a game plan which is more true to me. I've tried NC and clearly it hasn't worked. I've tried explaining to her what's going on with me and that hasn't worked. I think the best thing I can do is talk to her and tell her that I'm really concerned for her, that some of things she told me on the phone has me really worried and that I think it would do her good to seek some mental health professionals. That is the only way I would entertain any kind of contact with her. I don't have to be mean about it. But, that is a boundary that I will not cross. I think the part that scares me is that I will get sucked back in. I need to draw another boundary but this time I'm not angry anymore. I have realized that she compartmentalizes everything (she said so herself) and it seems like she disassociates too because of her traumatic upbringing (which I still don't know if I know everything about). I will tell her I want this for her, not for me which I think is finally true. I have finally seen that she IS ill. I wasn't making this stuff up. It is scary. And it must be scary for her, I would imagine. One of my fears about telling her this is that she will use it to get better and that I will miss out on this amazing person that she would become. But that is selfish. By me telling her this, it is my way of letting go and really, truly hoping that she gets some help, for her. So that she can have a happy life.

I know the likelihood of this happening are slim to none. But, at the very least, I can feel like I did the best I could. Nothing more that I can do. The things she told me really are worrisome and I can be kind about it.

[lost_my_heart]

Willy, please be careful. I know you care for her, be aware of your surroundings my friend. My ex does enough therapy to appease those who know. She takes her meds just long enough then stops. Give her the ammo and she will load the gun.

She has accused me of not supporting her when she needed it. I tried my hardest and now its one more thing to use against me. Completely delusional but in her mind its there. So please ask around not just my opinion, I truly know your pain for me it was "I love her, I will help her get better and we will be happy" not so much. Just damaged me more.

[Infared]

Willy

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

In The Ten Beliefs That Will get You Stuck section, number 9 might be helpful for you.  Whenever I engaged, I would get so emotional, that I could never think clearly. We all need to do, what we all need to do, but I suffered a lot of pain that I did not need to because of the choices that I made.

[patientandclear]

Willy, before you launch into the "I require that you get help as a condition of further contact" approach, you might want to take a look at the very thoughtful materials available on this site and elsewhere about how to engage a mentally ill loved one about their illness.  There are ways to approach this that go better and ways that go predictably poorly.

Here's a link to one of the articles on this site; Dr. Amador's book is well worth reading.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

I might also note that just because your ex is able to articulate the points you cited yesterday does not mean that, when you next talk, she will concede there is anything wrong.  My ex had a very poignant talk with me last fall about something that prompted him to see that he had a problem with serially wrecking relationships.  But 10 days later when I referenced that talk while giving him a cite to a resource I thought he might find useful, he was annoyed I was still thinking about this and he himself felt he had fully resolved the (lifelong, cyclical, compulsive) issues that had brought him to his knees in our last talk.

Denial is very very powerful.

[willy45]

Yeah. You guys are right. Thanks for the sanity check here. I'm back caught in the FOG.

[willy45]

OK. So this is probably closer to the truth. I want her to be better for me. I want it for her too but that is not likely. I want to be with the her that I think she could be without all the mental health issues. I want her to be able to treat me with live and caring and respect. That is not possible for her. She simply does not have the capacity. Probably never will. That us the sad truth. There is nothing I can do but protect myself. I was very happy before I talked to her. Content in a way I haven't been in a long time. I have a weakness towards her. She is my main weakness. I have worked really hard on my boundary issues and have been able to implement that across my life. With her, I can't. She is a master manipulator. Incredibly smart. And incredibly damaged. And toxic for me. She will destroy me if I let it happen.