Dealing with Silent Treatment as a trigger and expectations

[Harri]

This is going to be a long one.  I'm sorry. 

Recently I made a post that has me taking a closer look at some of the longer lasting effects of my childhood.  A trigger is something I define as a part of me that is hyper sensitive to external stimulation or an external force, whether it be a particular song or smell or something another person says or does.  I believe that while an external force may set off a trigger that elicits a particular response, I am 100% responsible for how I respond to that external force.  In other words, I and I alone am responsible for dealing with the fallout.  The problem is, that while I am aware of certain triggers, I can control my behaviors (usually), I am still a mess inside when it happens.  Not to the extent that I used to be, but still to the point where they interfere with my life and my relationships.  There are still a few that really hinder me and I do not respond well to at all.  The silent treatment is one of those.

I am looking to discuss some of the specifics of my trigger, the fears and how to better manage my own internal response.  Basically I want to have ready scripts that I have committed to memory or some type of self soothing/coping skill at my disposal so that I can head off the emotional tailspin or, if that is not possible, to be able to get through it quicker and come out stronger in the end.  

If anyone wants to join me, feel free.  I would also love some help too (as in just tell me what to do! <--- I am only partly kidding there. ) so if you have ideas or input, I would greatly appreciate it.  Also, if you think I am way off the mark, I want to hear about it please.   

1) Fear of the Silent Treatment: 

Root of the trigger:  The silent treatment was used by my mother throughout my life to control, manipulate, punish and teach me what she thought I needed to learn.  The silent periods could last anywhere from days to several months while I was living in the same house.  They were accompanied by tense and rigid postures, flinching away if I got too close in proximity, hostile looks of seething hatred, and they also were directed towards my father and brother but not to the same extent.  So basically, the fallout of my 'bad' behavior affected everyone in the house.  During this time, my mother would use my brother as her confidant and if I walked into a room where they were talking, they would both shut up quickly and look away, my mother with this bizarre look of cold rage and my brother with a look of guilt.  My world, already crumbling and fragile, would crash down.  I would rather be screamed at (yes, there was plenty of that too at times) and have someone right in my face calling me all sorts of nasty and vile things.  I do realize that is not healthy either, but if I had to choose, I would take the screaming.

Now, when someone gives me the silent treatment, my anxiety levels go through the roof, I feel sick to my stomach and panicky, and I have to force myself to pretend that I do not care and I am not bothered.  But inside I am.  It builds and I have to force myself not to ask for forgiveness even though I usually have no idea what set it off or I am aware that it really has nothing to do with me it is about the other person being triggered.  (I am mostly thinking about my ex in this part here.  He too was raised by a uBPD mom and I think had BPD/NPD tendencies of his own.  Very high functioning though which made it all the harder to identify the manipulations and anger).  In other areas, like when I was working, if a co-worker got quiet or started acting cooler than usual towards me, I would still panic.  Basically the same stuff I described above would happen but to a lesser extent. 

The fear and anxiety quickly turns to resentment and anger.  I have only recently been able to make that connection.  There was one lady in particular at work and I was triggered quite badly with her passive aggressive silent treatment, gossipy, schoolgirl type behavior along with her embracing a stance of victimhood in everything.  She would alternate that with silent treatment and for the 5 years I worked with her, I did not handle it well at all.  For a while, I would get into verbal sparring with her though nothing major, just annoying as hell, and eventually I got to the point of ignoring it... .but it still ate away at me.  EVEN AFTER I LEFT MY JOB!  How crazy is that?  She would then do things like roll her eyes when I was talking and she thought I could not see or laugh behind my back.  All petty childish things that I let get to me.  She would do things like triangulate and try to bring others into it and would make comments that would let me know other people said things.  It was just awful.  Haha, in retrospect, I wish she had done more of the silent treatment! 

With my exbf (7 year r/s that ended several years ago) we only got together after knowing each other for a year or so.  When I first met him, he was acting as a mentor of sorts.  We both met in a recovery group for nons and he was father along the road and took me under his wing.  It only became romantic later on.  He tended to be quiet when he was upset and that bothered me.  But there were times when it was absolutely horrible and I had a very hard time dealing with his Silent Treatment.  He would go for days without talking to me.  He knew ST was a huge trigger for me from when he was my mentor.  I never told him "hey when you so all quiet for days it triggers me", because I truly believe it was my problem to deal with and not his responsibility to change to suit my needs.  He was very adamant about not 'coddling' me, and though I am not aware of acting like he should, I have to admit I am only aware of what I am aware of, so i can't be certain.

One example with him in particular stands out for me though.  I have been thinking about this a lot.  I had been in the hospital for 20 days after having very extensive surgery.  I was released on a friday and basically begged to be sent home.  I was not sleeping well in the hospital and I was having heart palpitations.  I did not tell anyone because I wanted out of there.   So I went home and was lying on my couch.  He was supposed to come over, but called first.  I was talking with him and the palpitations started.  I was a wreck and alone at that point with two drains in me, etc.  I was telling him about it and my voice was shakey and I was on the verge of tears.  I realized then that I was having a panic attack and told him.  He got angry with me because I was all upset and nervous rather than "being happy and relieved that I had survived surgery".  He then proceeded to hang up on me, did not come over and I neither saw or heard from him for 5 days.  At that point we were together daily for hours and spending most nights together for at least 4 years.  We had talked about living together so it is not like we had just started dating or anything like that.  He had been such a presence in my life that his absence was very hard.  It was confusing, and hurtful and I was brought right back to when my mother would do it. 

I was so upset by the ST, I had to force myself not to go to him and beg (something I am ashamed to admit I did with my mother) for forgiveness for being so selfish and such a whiner.  When he did contact me, I said nothing about my hurt because it was mine to deal with, but I resented it and was so angry.  It festered away inside.  After that it was like my internal light dimmed.  I just shut down and the intimacy was never quite the same.  I withdrew part of me that was willing to share and I was no longer willing to be vulnerable with him anymore.  I was quicker to anger and responding in kind when he would be grumpy or hurtful.  The parts of him that I did not like so much were more pronounced to me.  I am unsure if I was painting him black or not.

I don't want that to keep happening.  How do I manage my reaction to the silent treatment without withdrawing from people?  My reactions have seriously affected some very important relationships.  I need some help please.  If anyone can tell me what they see here, I would appreciate it very much.  Between my ex, my parents and their deaths and some other issues, I have basically withdrawn.  I want to get back inot life, but I do not want to keep reliving the past.

[jmanvo2015]

Hi Harri,

I feel like I'm too new here to be qualified to give advice, but you've been very kind to me in your posts, so I want to, at least, respond and share some thoughts.

First, wow.  I thought I was the only person that had the same experience you describe.  I'm kind of blown away by how similar your mom's ST is to my own mom's ST.  It's like you could be describing my uBPD. 

Second, what a ___head your ex is for completely ignoring you in your time of need.  That's awful  I can't believe you needed his help and he ran away.  What a loser   That's really bad behavior on his part and makes me think it's a good thing you're not with him anymore.

I also have triggers.  Unfortunately, I am finding that no matter how self-enlightened I become and no matter how much I can connect my triggers to my childhood abuse, I still have difficulties with my behaviors and not responding to these triggers.  You might recall, I shared a few days ago about dramatically quitting a board position because of the silliest email.  I was just very fortunate to have two women that like me enough to convince me to stay and realized I was over-reacting.  So, on some level, I'm afraid of my own emotional responses and my proclivity to self-sabotage.  So, I can really relate to what you say here and, yes, I'd like to join you on this journey to try and get better in this area.

I've read that sometimes having something you can touch can help - such as a bracelet, ring, rock in your hand, but I don't know.  I used to carry around a small rock with the word "wisdom" etched on it, but truthfully rather than preventing me from responding to triggers most of the time I just wanted to throw it at someone's head.   

This is really a beautiful and genuine post and I'm touched and impressed by your clarity and wisdom.  Ours is a rocky road.  I am just seeing how much all of us that are children of BPDs suffer because of it.

Maybe I do have some advice, but it might sound kind of dopey, so bear with me.  I think that because of our childhood abuse we are all very serious people, way too serious.  And this seriousness and rigidity comes out when we socialize and our own tenseness because of the childhood abuse is sort of always there with us, at least I know it is for me.  I am kind of self-conscious in social situations and always a little bit uncomfortable.  What surprises me is that people don't realize how shy and self-conscious I am because my profession requires a lot of socializing and public speaking.  One thing that has helped me a lot - and I was doing this before I even found this board or understood about my mom's uBPD - is watching people like Jimmy Fallon and Ellen.

The two of them are remarkably at ease with themselves and just have this really humorous and light approach to life.  I envy that and think that my childhood robbed me of true joy.

Maybe if you can devote some time each day to something funny, something that makes you laugh and loosen up you will be better able to achieve your goals about not being triggered.  I know, for me, when I'm relaxed I'm much more able to let the little, or even, big things to.  So, before I go out sometimes, I'll spend 30 minutes watching Jimmy Fallon videos on YouTube.

Well, I told you it was silly advice, right?  I hope others will have something more tangible, but in any event sending you a i-can-totally-relate-to-this-post hug 

[sparrowfarfrom home]

I just have something short to share on the subject... .

It's the weirdest thing, but I had a recurring nightmare over a 25 to 30 year period of my mother not speaking to me. It would seem to go on the whole night long, and during the dreams I would  never be  able  to  get her to speak to me again. I was left with a lonliness and sense of sadness that would last into the next day.

They stopped  in the last 2 or so years. Possibly coinciding with my actively seeking  answers  about BPD and bringing  this trauma out of the shadows and into the light of day.

As far as others acting in this way to me, yes,it still is a trigger .I think you have solved why I was so hurt and befuddled by a friends ST . I felt guilty, thinking that my hurt was due to a prideful thought that everyone should love me. But your linking ST as a trigger makes more sense.

thank you for that.

The only solution I have found is to make good quality friends who don't play stupid games like that .

[Harri]

Hi Jamnvo.  Please don't ever hesitate to write what you feel or think in response to me.  I welcome any and all input.  The fact is, if we are here, we all have something to share and some insight that can either help or support someone.  When I ask for help it is because I need it and I need to know someone hears me.  So thank you!

What you said about my ex made me laugh.  He really is a good guy, we just did not work well together.  What you said also made me pause.  I have been so focused on my reactions that I forgot that ST is abuse.  All I know is that it triggered me. He was my first and only real relationship of the romantic type.  I still do not know what is considered 'normal' or what reasonable expectations are when it comes to stuff like the example I gave.  Is it okay/healthy/normal to want someone to be there to support you even when you are feeling weak and a bit helpless?  Is it okay to show that?   I do not do needy very well and I am independent to a fault sometimes, so I have a hard time asking for help.  In a situation like that though I was pretty damn scared and exhausted and I can see where it would be annoying if I had been going on and on about it for like 15 minutes, but I wasn't.  So was he being a jerk or was I being too whiney or was it a combination of both?  I don't know and would like some input.  I really only have a hazy idea of what it means to be in a healthy relationship.  I never really talked about my illness or disease so I don't think I drained him.  I don't know.  He was good about visiting and calling when I was in the hospital.  I think part of his reaction to my illness (which for the most part was very supportive but when we first found out, he retreated for several days) was because his wife died following a serious 2 year illness about 2 years prior to our getting together.  I am sure lots of memories were triggered for him too.  I felt guilty when we found out about my disease given his relatively recent loss.  

Anyhoo, I have to admit that when I read your suggestion about the rock, the first thing I thought of was throwing it... .and then I finished reading your sentence!    yeah... .maybe a small nerf ball would be better!  What I can do with your suggestion is try to attach a mantra to a particular object that I can hold or visualize when being triggered, it may help, so thank you.  I just am not sure what mantra to use.  It has to be simple and easy to remember.

I also really like your reminder to laugh.  I have been listening to music a lot more lately as that helps my mood considerably.  But comedy is a wonderful idea too.  Ellen is a favorite of mine too.  Thank you.

Jamnvo, we will figure this life stuff out!  Thanks again.  

Sparrow, thank you.  I am glad you were able to connect a couple of dots.  I have a habit of minimizing stuff and then I forget things when I get all warped in my thoughts.  LOL the combination of warped thoughts and forgetting and being hazy makes it pretty difficult to stay in the moment and work stuff through.  I feel like I am trying to run in waist deep water.  Maybe I need to slow it to a walk right now.  But the ST is abuse and manipulation and about control and punishment. <--- must remember that regardless of who is doing it!   I hate it.  I used to think I should make it a deal breaker just because no relationship can survive without communication, plus because I obviously can't handle it.  I am thinking now I should keep it a deal breaker because it is abuse!  Why on earth am I continuing to allow that to happen? 

Anyway, I am glad your nightmare has gone away.  That means all the work you have been doing is having a good effect so that is wonderful! 

Thanks again to the both of you.   

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Harri, yes it is (non) verbal abuse.

Try what I do. Apply the rule  of 3.

1st time  give them the benefit of the doubt

2nd time put some distance and watch

3rd time, consider it a serious character issue and walk away.

IMO it should be a deal breaker, cos if they are doing that, there are probably other unhealthy , immature communication factors as well   ... .besides you are too good to have people like that in your life.

[jmanvo2015]

Hi Harri,

Yes, for me, without a doubt, I consider your ex's behavior unacceptable.  This is what you wrote," He was supposed to come over, but called first.  I was talking with him and the palpitations started.  I was a wreck and alone at that point with two drains in me, etc.  I was telling him about it and my voice was shakey and I was on the verge of tears.  I realized then that I was having a panic attack and told him.  He got angry with me because I was all upset and nervous rather than "being happy and relieved that I had survived surgery".  He then proceeded to hang up on me, did not come over and I neither saw or heard from him for 5 days."

For me, this is emotional abandonment.  It doesn't surprise me because we were emotionally abandoned by our BPD parents, so why wouldn't we also attract people that abandon us in times of needs.  For me, no matter how great he was in other areas, this was just wrong.  I'm sorry he lost his wife and I'm sure that it was traumatic for him, but you said you just got out of the hospital and were in panic and needed him and he shut down completely.  And, yes, for me, this constitutes emotional abuse, especially because you also say that you told him about your issues with ST. 

I believe, if you are still with him?, that this behavior warrants a serious conversation about what is and what isn't OK with you.  I am not sure someone who behaves like this in a time of crisis can truly be a "great guy."  But, I also know from firsthand experience that, as children of BPDs, we have seriously self-esteem issues and we attract men that also have self-esteem issues and people with low self-esteem have difficulties in all kinds of relationships.  What matters most for me, is if he is willing to listen to your concerns and try to work to improve the relationship?

I really like what sparrow said about the rule of 3s. Never heard that before, but definitely will remember it.

[Coral]

Harri, ST is a huge but diminishing trigger for me.  My BPD sis uses it with abandon but w/therapy and higher awareness, it's truly is lessening.  When it hits, my emotional me would crawl on hot coals to make it stop so the logical me has to self-nourish me and I have long (but getting shorter) internal discussions.

Your former bf may be a good guy but he hasn't learned not to be cruel to  someone he cares about.  Today, that's a deal breaker for me.

I used to agree to the rule of 3 but not anymore.  The"event" is the deciding factor as to how many chances.  If someone decks me, that's it.I do not need to be decked 3 times before I call it off.   Forget my birthday and that'll be forgiven.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

I agree coral, that one big event like this or  sending up a huge red flag  in another way would definitely  be a deal breaker.

I got the rule of 3 from a book called THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR on how to  size up relationships in the beginning stages.

So, yes, it depends on the seriousness of the action. I like what you said about forgetting  a birthday. It is a matter  of degree.

[Louise7777]

This may sound weird, but its what worked for me: to embrace the ST.I got it endless times (longer and loner ones) from an xSO. Ok, he´s not BPD, hes uPAPD.

By embracing it I mean I understood what it was (abuse/ manipulation/ control) and told him clearly what it was and that I wasnt taking it, I dont play games, especially not the childish ones. If he cant communicate, thats his problem, cause I was always open to listen... So, if he preferred to punish me, he could go find somebody else cause Im not a child to be grounded.

So, my advice is: empower yourself. If somebody is controling and manipulative, just call them on their game. They will deny it, but at least they know you are aware. For me, it worked, he never did it again. I wasnt angry when I confronted him, I was calm and told him the boat had sailed.

I believe that you deserve friends or partners that dont play such games. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri,

Like you and the others who have responded here, I too am triggered by the ST. My DH is often quiet in his depression, and he'll make 'hmm' sounds but not say what he's thinking. Does it bother me and trigger me? YES! I've been quite aware of it lately and have tried to go back to my childhood and see the connection. While my uBPDm didn't make the same sound, she did make sounds by banging and slamming and various other noises while at the same time not talking. The 'ST with sound effects.'   I think that's why I tend to be triggered by my DH, or at least that's the closest I've gotten in figuring it out.

I spoke with my T about triggers one time, and my frustration with myself that I am triggered before I even know it, sucked into the abyss. One of the first things is just to be aware that we are being triggered. He gave me a great illustration of someone who has had an injury of some sort, and any time the area near the injury is  bumped, the tendency is to overreact in order to protect that which had been injured. Usually we do it unconsciously, as a reflex reaction to what was painful before, even if it doesn't hurt in actuality anymore. So the point is that our triggers are often a reflexive reaction to what took place that hurt us in some way, no matter how long ago. I know you get that already from the things you said.

My little mantra that I say to myself when I am aware that I am triggering is, "This is a reflex reaction to something from long ago." I usually have to repeat it many times and often say it out loud. There is a difference for me to hear it rather than just thinking it. This helps me a lot to be in the moment and to realize I am overreacting, and it helps me to slow down the reaction and breathe easier again. Then later I can go back and think it through when I'm not triggering anymore.

We sure need a lot of tools in our toolboxes to help us, don't we?

Woolspinner

[Moselle]

Harri, if you knew a child was being abused, and you saw her sitting on a park bench all alone. What would you do given your knowedge of abuse?

Sit down next to her? Give her a long tight hug? Stroke her hair and tell her "It'll be ok". Have a conversation and help her vocalise the pain?

Well if we've been abused, we have that hurt little person in each of us.

Perhaps we should remove ourselves from the situation when triggered.  And comfort ourselves as we would that little girl/boy on the park bench.

We probably have a well developed sense of compassion, empathy, intuition. We should be using it on ourselves not only on others.

I'm still working on self soothing myself, but this is some of the best advice I've had.

[Coral]

Self-nourishing is so hard to do and harder to accept.  The Internal Dialogue really gets lively. I am pleased to announce the Healthy Team is winning more and more.

[Harri]

Hi.  I want to thank everyone who has posted here.  You have all helped me immensely.  I had to take some time to let this roll around in my head.  I am still stunned that rather than trying to say Hey, ST is abuse and Harri, you have the right to say no, stop, and/or walk away... .there I was trying to figure out how to be okay in the presence of someone who uses ST as a passive aggressive manipulative tool.

Yeah.  So while it is a trigger in that I need to manage my internal reaction and self soothe, I do not need to get comfortable with it.  The critical part of me is saying Harri, how dense can you be?  The softer side of me is saying Harri, so what?  Get over it already!  and the soft inner voice is saying stop beating yourself up over this and learn from it.  I also spent some time using the visualization that Moselle painted for me.  I doodle park benches with trees and bushes and birds all around, so I just doodled Little Harri and Me sitting together, holding hands and having a chat and some hugs.

So I have been thinking about accommodation and resiliency and how I still do not readily identify abuse.  I can adapt to just about any situation and I can bounce back (though not as quickly as I did when I was younger).  I think the wounds and shame just build over time.   Jmanvo, you used the phrase emotional abandonment, and it blew my mind.  I remember thinking at the time that he was a jerk, but then I told myself that I was being clingy and needy and I was whining a bit and who wants to be around that?  So of course he walked away and it was me who was being the jerk.  But that little voice inside me kept repeating the hurt over and over and I squelched it.  I wanted to be part of a relationship.  I wanted to have someone to share things with and I was willing to sell off bits of myself for that (yes, I do read and occasionally post at the leaving board here.  I need it!   )  He withdrew from me, abandoned me emotionally, and then I did the same in response.  It was the same damn thing.  I am not sure behaviors like that are fixable.  They just are.  If I ever had talked with him about it (and that would have been a big flipping war if I did) even if he had heard me and agreed to give me a heads up of "I need a couple of days alone" I would never be sure if he was doing it to avoid an argument (which would annoy me), or to humor me (which is condescending) or because he *wanted* to maintain good communication with me.  <sighs>  I don't *expect* someone to share everything, help me and be with me all the time.  I expect them to need alone time just like I do.   But I *want* someone to *want* to spend time share things and want to help.  Is that part of a 'healthy relationship'?

Sparrow, I like the rule of threes, thank you for sharing.  That rule will come in handy as I reach out more and more.  I think it will serve to put things into focus and will actually help me to pause and determine if I am triggered because it is abuse or if it is something I need to learn to deal with.  It will give me a bit of time to feel, think and breathe.

Coral, thank you for labeling my exes behavior so clearly.    I got riled up a bit while processing this thread and had an urge to call him up and tell him off... .until I remembered all the threads I read over on the Leaving board where they talk about recycle attempts by the BPD... .my ex definitely thinks he was the non to my so-called BPD.  I was more raw and not as far along in recovery, but he has as many if not more BPD traits than I did/do.     He would have seen my call as a 'recycle attempt'... and i said the hell with that!    Internal dialogue is perfect for the running commentary I have in my head.  I am glad to know you are winning the fight against the ST trigger.  

Wools, my mom did the ST with sound effects too!  The slamming of doors, pots and pans, muttering under her breath.  My absolute favorite (actually the most hurtful really) was to see her lips moving while she recited scripture or said prayers under her breath while doing this thing with her hand to ward off evil spirits when i was around during ST (when she was not hiding in the basement).  She used to throw holy water at me too.   :'(  :'(   God help me, writing that hurts so much and I am so very glad she is dead.

I wanted to talk some more about the ST that your husband does with you.  I am not sure if you want to though.  How about you take the lead on that if you want to talk some more about it?  I also plan to borrow you mantra---> "This is a reflex reaction to something from long ago."  Thank you.  

[Moselle]

Mine is punishing me at the moment with ST. She started it with a divorce threat, stopped all communication and is now not allowing me to speak to the children either :-(

How do I know if I'm triggered or not?

How do I respond to ST without validating it?

[Harri]

Moselle, I am sorry she is doing that to you and involving your daughters in it as well. 

You ask how to know if you are triggered.  I've been thinking about that, specifically the Silent Treatment.  If we accept that ST is abuse, then does it matter if we are triggered?  Beyond taking control of our own behaviors when triggered, if the triggering event is abuse, I think it is okay and even required to say No, stop, go to hell, whatever may fit.  In your example, it is hard because you are not living with her and you are being denied access to your children.  I can't imagine that.   :'( 

As for not validating it?  Right now i am thinking if it were me, I would say Let me know when you want to act like the adult you are and leave her to do whatever she chooses... .but I am not in your shoes and I do not have kids, so it is easy for me to write that.  I am not sure I am the best person to give advice on this one.  I wish I could say do this ___, but I can't. 

Moselle, what are you getting out of trying to stay married to her?

[Moselle]

Moselle, what are you getting out of trying to stay married to her?

Good question

The children are my biggest concern. I want them to have a chance at healthy.

The knowledge that I have given it every chance.

I guess fulfilling the caretaker in me. The need to rescue/ help her

The dream of a functional family coming out of dysfunction.

[Harri]

Hi.  Take this as just an opinion from an adult child who has issues or her own.  My parents stayed together for the kids so we would not have the baggage of a broken home.  I am not sure what kind of man my father would have been if he had left my mother and worked on himself... .but I have a feeling that at one point he was a fairly decent guy.  He was not any where near to being a decent man IMO after being married to my mother for 46 years.  He died broken, sad and longing for my mother who spent 46 years abusing, berating and emasculating him.  She used parental alienation to the point where I still have no idea of who my father really was and neither does my brother and we were all in the same house together.

Having at least one healthy parent to turn to for unconditional love, validation and stability is what is best for the kids.  Whether the parents remain married is a separate issue and is, IMO, related to the needs and beliefs of the parent(s) and nothing else. 

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or another, I just want you to take a closer look at the question I asked and the first answer you wrote:

Moselle, what are you getting out of trying to stay married to her?

The children are my biggest concern. I want them to have a chance at healthy.

[Moselle]

Thanks Harri.

I go in with my eyes wide open. I have made the choice to go back. But I will not be abused. I have my boundaries and if I go back in,  to re-orient my kids before leaving after 6 months, so be it. I have been absolutely clear that I will not tolerate misery.  If we are both miserable then there is only one outcome.  We have agreed that in principle. 

On my own, I set the bar at thriving. If I don't thrive there, then I leave . No doubts. It's not in my nature to flog a dead horse. But I want to recover myself in this. If I can do it in the midst of a BPD/NPD mess then I can do it anywhere. There is a challenge in it for me personally. If you can make it in New York you can make it anywhere. Right?

Ah New York. What a city! I'm South African BTW.

If I can't function as a dad there. I will leave. I know too much. But I think I can swing this. Not on my own but with God' s help. I know who I was before. And there is nothing stopping me being that person.

I may not be loved, but my children love me, and my sister loves me, and I have loving friends.

I can leave the marriage on my terms, recovered co-dependent, with superb coping skills, listening skills. Knowledge of how to handle the marriage on my teterms. Difficult people. Soothe myself . Build self esteem in children. But then why would I leave. I'd be thriving,  because these are all skills we can apply  to other things. Harri, if I did it for one day. I can do it every day. And perhaps this is just what I need to thrive - hardship. The test will be - Can I give enough love  to the kids. I can do so without effort. It is actually a pleasure, not a burden.

I feel like I have to try, given the in formation I have now. The skills need work.

[Harri]

 Thank you Moselle for hearing me out on this.  I believe you can do anything you choose to do.  As much as I can, not being married with kids, I do understand and can relate to your determination and need to make this work.  Reading your response, I was reminded of my own determination to not go no contact with my family after I discovered BPD and all that entailed.  I had several people telling me I was crazy to stay in touch, that I was staying in contact because I was still enmeshed, etc.  Some even implied that I was able to do so because my mother was not as bad as 'their pwBPD'  .  The same thing happened when I decided to move back in with my father after my mom passed.  I had no other choice except to go to a shelter, but still friends told me it was the wrong choice.  I made it work though.  None of it was easy, not the limited contact and not moving in with my dad but I ended up better for the experience.

During that time and again while reading your reply, I keep thinking of that story in the bible with the three guys in the fire... .walking around and coming out unharmed.  I can never remember the guys names and think of them as Al, Mike and Sam for simplicity   but that was what I wanted to be able to do--->  learn to be me even in the presence of insanity.

I am also reminded of this quote:  Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us.-- Pema Chodron

For a while the above quote was my mantra and it helped me to focus and stay motivated during those times when I was nearly consumed by FOG, rage and so very tired of having to fight for everything.

So as much as anyone else can, I understand your position and I believe in your ability to achieve your goals.  It sounds like you have a good support system in your sister and your friends.  I'd like to join team Moselle in spirit and support you as well so keep posting.

[Moselle]

Thank you Moselle for hearing me out on this.  I believe you can do anything you choose to do.  As much as I can, not being married with kids, I do understand and can relate to your determination and need to make this work.  Reading your response, I was reminded of my own determination to not go no contact with my family after I discovered BPD and all that entailed.  I had several people telling me I was crazy to stay in touch, that I was staying in contact because I was still enmeshed, etc.  Some even implied that I was able to do so because my mother was not as bad as 'their pwBPD'  .  The same thing happened when I decided to move back in with my father after my mom passed.  I had no other choice except to go to a shelter, but still friends told me it was the wrong choice.  I made it work though.  None of it was easy, not the limited contact and not moving in with my dad but I ended up better for the experience.

During that time and again while reading your reply, I keep thinking of that story in the bible with the three guys in the fire... .walking around and coming out unharmed.  I can never remember the guys names and think of them as Al, Mike and Sam for simplicity   but that was what I wanted to be able to do--->  learn to be me even in the presence of insanity.

I am also reminded of this quote:  Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us.-- Pema Chodron

For a while the above quote was my mantra and it helped me to focus and stay motivated during those times when I was nearly consumed by FOG, rage and so very tired of having to fight for everything.

So as much as anyone else can, I understand your position and I believe in your ability to achieve your goals.  It sounds like you have a good support system in your sister and your friends.  I'd like to join team Moselle in spirit and support you as well so keep posting.

Harri, you have no idea how much your posts inspire me. Whether it's answering a question you have asked, or reading a post of yours, I feel calmed. Not sure if you know you have that gift. Thank you for sharing it with me. Team Moselle needs you desperately LOL, so its great to have you along.

I've decided to ignore my W's Silent treatment. If the marriage is over, it is over. I accept that for today. Tomorrow it may be over again, or it may be happy. I'm not sure. I'm not in control of her choices. I know that in her mind, she

I am in control of mine though, and I am feeling more myself today. I am sending a mobile phone to a neigbour, to give to the kids so I can contact them.

BTW, :-) www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego

[Moselle]

I've just hashed out in my mind if I have done something wrong.

I realise that I haven't, so I'm very comfortable that this silent treatment is her issue that she has split me because of it.

Also "being ignored or ceasing to exist to a BP/NP is not pleasant, but it does indicate that you are no longer their caretaker. Keep in mind that you may have never existed for the BP/NP anyway. They know you are alive, but your individual feelings, values, interests, and ways of looking at the world have never existed for the BP/NP "

"Stop caretaking the BP/NP" p180

[Harri]

Moselle, I am glad you feel a sense of calm when chatting with me.  Thank you for sharing that with me.  It is always interesting to hear how others experience me and it is especially nice when the person has taken the time to hear and see me and *still* sees me in a positive way!  The acceptance and understanding feels good and it is appreciated.   

I am feeling more myself today. I am sending a mobile phone to a neigbour, to give to the kids so I can contact them.

That is brilliant!  As for feeling more yourself, that is good.  Just keep doing what you are doing and continue to take it one day at a time.  You seem to have not only grasped but really accepted the whole "what is, is" thing. 

Have you given any thought to how you will deal with your wife cutting off channels of communication with your daughters (other than alternate cell phones?  )  I keep picturing her finding the phone and throwing it away!     <--- not that it is really funny or anything, but I can't help but laugh at the imagery.

I am still uncertain how to know if ST is justified.  I get that people get upset and need time to think, but when does it cross the line of what is appropriate and reasonable?  Is that something that can only be determined on an case by case basis?  Any thoughts on that?

That book you quoted is new to me.  The part you quoted is interesting.  With my mother, the ST was really a state of rage (and with my ex it was meant as a punishment) so I don't believe I stopped existing for her.  I do agree she never saw me as an individual though but I think the ST was her punishing the parts of her self that she loathed and in turn projected onto me.  I wonder if the book is talking more about when the BP/NP cuts off all contact and then moves on to another partner?  No such thing happened with my mother so I don't really understand.  Is there a difference that you can see or am I blocked on this? 

If there is a difference maybe it lies in the very nature of the relationship.  Obviously a husband wife dynamic is different than mother child.  The parental bond that my mother and I had was that I was nothing but an extension of her... .and I can't put my thoughts together and I am having a hard time finding the words to express what I am thinking here re: the difference in the nature of the relationships.  I am going to leave this here so I don't lose the thought though.  Do you have any input?

BTW, :-) www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego

Yes!  Those are the guys... .Sam, Mike and Al!  LOL

Team Moselle is awesome so thanks for having me!   

[Moselle]

That is brilliant!  As for feeling more yourself, that is good.  Just keep doing what you are doing and continue to take it one day at a time.  You seem to have not only grasped but really accepted the whole "what is, is" thing.  

Have you given any thought to how you will deal with your wife cutting off channels of communication with your daughters (other than alternate cell phones?   )  I keep picturing her finding the phone and throwing it away!    <--- not that it is really funny or anything, but I can't help but laugh at the imagery.

Look I get your humour. If you find something funny about my situation, please share it - really. Laughing helps me deal with it. It takes that pit out of my stomach. OK I just pictured her naked finding the phone and throwing it away. Ha ha, now it's funny

The girls phoned me. I asked W's parents to intervene and ask W to let me speak to the children. We skyped for about an hour. Loved it. My anxiety completely went away.

I am still uncertain how to know if ST is justified.  I get that people get upset and need time to think, but when does it cross the line of what is appropriate and reasonable?  Is that something that can only be determined on an case by case basis?  Any thoughts on that?

I think she is just dysregulating, and actually cannot speak to me without shouting. It is also punishment. She's cruel. It's what she does. It's how she was treated as a child and all she knows.

That book you quoted is new to me.  The part you quoted is interesting.  With my mother, the ST was really a state of rage (and with my ex it was meant as a punishment) so I don't believe I stopped existing for her.  I do agree she never saw me as an individual though but I think the ST was her punishing the parts of her self that she loathed and in turn projected onto me.  I wonder if the book is talking more about when the BP/NP cuts off all contact and then moves on to another partner?  No such thing happened with my mother so I don't really understand.  Is there a difference that you can see or am I blocked on this?  

If there is a difference maybe it lies in the very nature of the relationship.  Obviously a husband wife dynamic is different than mother child.  The parental bond that my mother and I had was that I was nothing but an extension of her... .and I can't put my thoughts together and I am having a hard time finding the words to express what I am thinking here re: the difference in the nature of the relationships.  I am going to leave this here so I don't lose the thought though.  :)o you have any input?

Spot on. I think this related to a husband wife dynamic. I can only speak from my experience with my mother. see if it relates to yours. All her feelings of inadequacy, self hatred, insecurity were actually projected onto me as an appendage to her. As you say as an extension of her, a very un-OK extension. My life view and outlook seems very similar to hers, as if I'm cloned or a part of her. Jeez I also find it hard to write. It's very hard to describe

I had a good experience today. I sat with myself and observed my thoughts for 5 minutes. I found it very difficult and couldn't do it from longer than 30 seconds at first, and I was very critical of myself "You can't do this etc", I observed that thought with interest (its my mother's voice - highly critical). Then I relaxed myself doing a few relaxation techniques to see if the thoughts would come. the excercise was not to judge them but just to observe them. I found it difficult to separate thoughts and feelings. But I persevered, and I began to notice my thoughts. Then throughout the day I was more conscious of them. Very interesting.

[Moselle]

I found some stuff you might find interesting:

Know the Type

Mothers with BPD outnumber fathers, and Christine Lawson, author of Understanding

the Borderline Mother, has a taxonomy of the troubled parent: "The Queen is controlling,

the Witch is sadistic, the Hermit is fearful, and the Waif is helpless," she says. And each

requires a different approach. Don't let the Queen get the upper hand; be wary even of

accepting gifts because it engenders expectations. Don't internalize the Hermit's fears or

become limited by them. Don't allow yourself to be alone with the Witch; maintain

distance for your own emotional and physical safety. And with the Waif, don't get pulled

into her crises and sense of victimization; "pay attention to your own tendencies to want

to rescue her, which just feeds the dynamic," Lawson says.

Trust Yourself

In writing her book Surviving a Borderline Parent, Kimberley Roth encountered many children of borderline parents who said they felt crazy growing up. "They experienced a lot of inconsistencies—an action or statement

that earned praise one day would touch off a three-day, stony silent treatment the next—

as well as sudden outbursts and overreactions." So they never learn to trust their own

judgment or feelings. The most important element to recovery, she says, is to accept that

you're not crazy and that "it wasn't me."

You asked me why I'm going back in  - to rescue my kids from the queen witch!

Children of borderline parents are often forced to act as the parent themselves—"it's like

a child raising a child," Kreger says—and this role can play itself out in other

relationships. They grow up very quickly in many ways and act as caretaker for everyone,

sometimes at the expense of taking care of themselves. "Having that undue sense of

responsibility can leave them feeling very alone in the world," Lawson says. And they

allow others to tread their boundaries just as the parent did. So once you learn to set

limits for your parent, set them for other people and learn to put yourself first.

None of these steps will come easy. An abusive or inconsistent parent can leave a deep

wound. "Trying to manage it can be a lifelong process," Kreger says. But she insists that

with a good therapist, and support from a community of other people who have gone

through the same thing, "there is real possibility to get better, and I know many people

who have."

[Harri]

Hiya!

Yeah, my mother was Queen/witch with a bit of hermit in there too.  Interesting combo to say the least!  I have wished many times that I had that info when I was younger.  Especially the part about staying away from the witch and that I was not the crazy one.  Trying to sort through what stuff is mine to own and what is my mothers is still a challenge as so much of the insanity has been internalized.  I seem to go back and forth between a place of strength and one of guilt and shame.  I can tell myself all I want that I am not to blame and the shame is not mine, but I can't seem to shake it.  I sometimes wonder if I am holding onto those feelings of guilt and shame to keep myself a victim.  LOL  Victimizing myself for being a victim and then re-victimizing myself because I despise the victim stance.  And sometimes, when I hear that inner voice saying all this crap, I tell myself to shut up.  :P

Moselle, you are capable and so very strong even though you may not always feel that way.  What is your armor made of?  Truth, courage, determination, righteousness, dignity, integrity, faith... .what else?  Have you thought of how to help your daughters develop their own armor?  I keep trying to think back and remember the feelings I had and I am not sure what would have helped me.  Heh, I am still trying to figure out what will help me as an adult.

That bit about growing up taking care of everyone... .it rings so true.  I can remember my mother confiding in me and coming to me for advice and for my opinions.  I was way too young.  I've been thinking a lot about the care taking role I had.   At this point in time, I feel like I have spent so much time taking care of others and sacrificing myself that I am very selfish.  When i was living with my father I really struggled with wanting to help him... .as in I had to force myself to do it.  I am not sure if that was 'normal' given my childhood or if that makes me an incredibly selfish person.  I read some of the posts here and I am just awed at peoples ability to keep giving or even the desire to want to help and I can't help but look at myself.  I have a couple of friends I am happy to help and my brother and SIL and nephew I have no problem with of course.  But some people, I just don't have it in me.  I don't even feel sympathy sometimes.  I feel like my moral compass is a bit broken and sometimes i think my ability to be compassionate is limited. 

Okay, I am rambling about me!  :P

Is your wife allowing contact with the kids?  I keep imagining you sending secret messages via courier pigeon and more of those 'disposable' cell phones!  You could go all James Bond/Secret Agent too! 

Oooh!  I was thinking of you earlier today.  Someone here, trees I think it was, mentioned an online CBT course she signed up for.  She said it was designed for kids, but liked it so I checked it out and plan to do the course.  I thought your girls might get something out of it (and you too maybe?).  It is mentioned on this site too.  It's called Mood Gym and it is free.  Have you checked it out already?

[Harri]

Louise, I was reading through this thread again and I realized I did not respond to your comment to me.  I am sorry.  I'm not sure what happened. 

I like where you say to embrace it by calling the behavior out and saying I will not take it.  That is beautifully simple and to the point.  It is also good to get reassurance that it is abuse.  No matter how much I may think something is wrong, it seems I am still uncertain enough that hearing from others that it is indeed wrong is so very helpful to me.  Thank you and thank you for giving me an example of what it sounds like when you say to embrace it.  I learn better when i can read and actually say the words out loud!

Louise said:

This may sound weird, but its what worked for me: to embrace the ST.I got it endless times (longer and loner ones) from an xSO. Ok, he´s not BPD, hes uPAPD.

By embracing it I mean I understood what it was (abuse/ manipulation/ control) and told him clearly what it was and that I wasnt taking it, I dont play games, especially not the childish ones. If he cant communicate, thats his problem, cause I was always open to listen... So, if he preferred to punish me, he could go find somebody else cause Im not a child to be grounded.

So, my advice is: empower yourself. If somebody is controling and manipulative, just call them on their game. They will deny it, but at least they know you are aware. For me, it worked, he never did it again. I wasnt angry when I confronted him, I was calm and told him the boat had sailed.

I believe that you deserve friends or partners that dont play such games.

[Louise7777]

Hi Harri!

No apology needed! But Im glad you commented here so Im back on this thread. Well, seems I said it too soon, cause he just gave me another silent treatment! And starting on my birthday! How cool is that? He punishes me twice!  He must be so happy!

Long story short, he picked for a fight and I fell for it a couple of days ago. So in his mind he feels justified in ignoring me now.

Yes, sometimes we know it but we need to hear it from others: its abuse. Ill say more: its sadism! This is the only place I can really say what I think and not sound selfish, Im sure you all understand. So, here it goes: who gives silent treatment to a child? To her/ his own child? PD or not PD, I dont care, its just cruel! Who ignores somebody on his/ her birthday cause of a fight? They have no mercy, no empathy whatsoever!

Im glad I can vent here and get validation. People see him as Mr Nice Guy (I was fooled by that too) so Im the mean one for not letting it go. At least my uBPDs rage and people realize, at some point, that theres something very wrong there.

I think calling it for what it is may work, at least for some time. But given my last experience, its just a matter of time until they go back to their old habits. So, Id tell that, whenever possible, just stay away from them. Unlike you, I was so tired of that behaviour that I dont want any contact (I havent contacted him for years), so apologizing is something I dont do anymore. But still, even with small ammount of contact, he finds ways to punish me. I understand the ST affected you in a different way, cause you were a child. I can only imagine how devastating it was.

So, given all this, if somebody uses it with you again, just take a step back, breath deep and realize its THEIR problem, not YOURS. You dont have to do anything but leave. 

[Moselle]

Yes, sometimes we know it but we neto hear it from others: its abuse. Ill say more: its sadism! This is the only place I can really say what I think and not sound selfish, Im sure you all understand. So, here it goes: who gives silent treatment to a child? To her/ his own child? PD or not PD, I dont care, its just cruel! Who ignores somebody on his/ her birthday cause of a fight? They have no mercy, no empathy whatsoever!

Im glad I can vent here and get validation.

Louise, yes it is is sadism, and yes it is cruel and no it is not cool. Not cool at all. And i would like to offer my support and validation.

I can really empathise becuse mine has gone on sadistic silent treatment as well and prevented me from speaking to my children. She knows that's about the cruelest thing she can do to me. There is the BPD queen , hermit, witch and the waif. Mine has NPD as well and is all three of these except the hermit. And she knows it. She actually called herself a 'dragon' once, and then blamed me that she was a dragon to me and a cruel mother

OK. Can I change this?. No. Can I stop this being painful no? Can I stop myself suffering?. A resounding YES. I am visiting this week. Flying down especially to see the children. I am taking a mobile phone with me that will stay on their dressing table and will stay plugged in and charging. So whenever I phone, it will be there. If it disappears it is because she has made it disappear , I will just get another one. I wonder how many she will take before she gives up that game.

I made another choice too. I sent her a mail saying "Thanks for taking your space, I have loved having the time apart as well" And its true. I have come to myself and done lots of work during this NC.

So in the past I have allowed a person with a serious mental illness to control me. I'm not making that choice any more.

[Louise7777]

Hi Moselle and thank you so much for your support and validation. I have uBPD relatives and one sounds a lot like your ex wife (except she´s not a hermit), she has lots of H traits and N too, not to mention the sadism. I read your posts and Im so sorry for your situation. I congratulate you for all you are doing for the kids, you got great advice and encouragement from adult kids of BPDs, they are a great source of knowledge for all of us.

Going back to the topic (ST), Id point out they use it cause they know its something important to us. Unfortunately we opened up and shared many things with them (like its supposed to happen in a healthy romantic r/s). And then they use all that info as ammo against us. So they hit where it really hurts. They cant see houw counter-productive that is for them, but seems their ego is more important than anything. So Im just minimizing contact or going NC with all my uPDs. I wish things were different, but its time to move on and let go of the dream. I came to the conclusion that its impossible to have a r/s with a blackhole, they end up sucking your energies and give nothing back, any interaction is painful for me.

I look back and realize that I have a control issue too, I hoped things were in a certain way and since they are not, I get frustrated and resentful. I still get upset with the ST, but Im managing it better, I fully accepted they wont change, not even 1%, so I took the burden off my shoulders and walked away. Even if I still keep in touch, emotionally Im way more detached. It was a huge relief and I hope we all get in better places soon. 

[Moselle]

Hi Moselle and thank you so much for your support and validation. I have uBPD relatives and one sounds a lot like your ex wife (except she´s not a hermit), she has lots of H traits and N too, not to mention the sadism. I read your posts and Im so sorry for your situation. I congratulate you for all you are doing for the kids, you got great advice and encouragement from adult kids of BPDs, they are a great source of knowledge for all of us.

Going back to the topic (ST), Id point out they use it cause they know its something important to us. Unfortunately we opened up and shared many things with them (like its supposed to happen in a healthy romantic r/s). And then they use all that info as ammo against us. So they hit where it really hurts. They cant see houw counter-productive that is for them, but seems their ego is more important than anything. So Im just minimizing contact or going NC with all my uPDs. I wish things were different, but its time to move on and let go of the dream. I came to the conclusion that its impossible to have a r/s with a blackhole, they end up sucking your energies and give nothing back, any interaction is painful for me.

I look back and realize that I have a control issue too, I hoped things were in a certain way and since they are not, I get frustrated and resentful. I still get upset with the ST, but Im managing it better, I fully accepted they wont change, not even 1%, so I took the burden off my shoulders and walked away. Even if I still keep in touch, emotionally Im way more detached. It was a huge relief and I hope we all get in better places soon.  

I fully respect your decision to walk from it. I can understand it and I vascillate sometimes between staying or leaving. She is not in fact my ex. We are still married, but there is a bit of sunlight opening up between us in terms of change. I am building momentum and she is still playing the games. Interestingly I love her. I'm not sure how I can say that or whether it's real love or not, but I am fond of her. There were good reasons I married her, outside of being idolised LOL. Having researched their pain, and how deep it is, I actually have some level of compassion for her too. It is devastating what they go through, and I actually believe they know what they are doing, and the damage it causes. To stop themselves completely melting down from the guilt though, they have a safety valve, which is unfortunately you and me. Imagine the build up of pain if the safety valve disappears. They rage to bring us back, and if raging doesn't work, they promise stuff like amazing sex (Yes she showed me too  ), and then she tried CBT and DBT for 2 months. Now silent treatment. Ironically the silent treatment was the one that worked, I'm going back tomorrow, But she doesn't know its to see the kids, and give them their phone. Fortuitously she is out friday and saturday, so I've got the kids to myself! :-) And I will leave again until she can respect my boundaries, then I will go back permanently. If she doesn't I can never go back. Oh I have other needs/wants too. To be Nurtured, Respected, Autonomy, and Reciprocation of positive behaviour.