Dealing with Silent Treatment as a trigger and expectations

[Louise7777]

Moselle, sorry, I just assumed she was your ex. I completely understand the conflicting feelings, specially cause you have children involved, so in that regard, its much easier for me to detach and go NC/ VLC.

"Interestingly I love her. I'm not sure how I can say that or whether it's real love or not, but I am fond of her. There were good reasons I married her, outside of being idolised LOL."

I can relate to that too. In my case, regarding my uPAPD xSO, it was a habit for me. Not an addiction, but I got used to him, it was familiar in many levels (I had an emotionally unavailable father, so getting ST was somehow "normal". Also, I realize its some sort of "slot machine syndrome", I put so much effort on it that I cant let go completely. I will eventually, but to get there it will take me long.

I dont have the kindness you display, though. Maybe cause my uBPDs drained me so much over the decades and they go on, if I allow them. When they want something from me, they phone me and play victim, then I say no and they rage, I continue with no and then they cry again... .Its toxic and exhausting for me. I dont really care if they are in pain or not, to be honest. There are many resources nowadays (medication, therapy, shrinks, etc). They refuse all that, so that means they are not in pain, otherwise the´d look for help. Actually, the only uPDs I knew that went to therapy or to a shrink used it as a tool ("see, I went and nothing changed, its your fault!".

My particular experience doesnt allow me to be optimist and Im sorry. I hope you make the best decision for your kids and you. And I wish you a happy alone time with the kids.

[Moselle]

Actually, the only uPDs I knew that went to therapy or to a shrink used it as a tool ("see, I went and nothing changed, its your fault!".

My particular experience doesnt allow me to be optimist and Im sorry. I hope you make the best decision for your kids and you. And I wish you a happy alone time with the kids.

I paid for therapy for 4 years, individual and marriage and it indeed made no difference whatsoever. I think her therapist became her caretaker though.

When she to me she only went to please me, I promptly stopped paying for it. And sent aN instruction to the therapist to stop billing me. She literally tried to make me pay. She dropped her price per session. So I replied and said thanks for dropping your price. If i recalculate the 4 years of therapy on that price you owe me 22 free sessions.  Please feel free to consult with W on that basis.

Bizarrely, she continued to see W and billed me last week for the last 6 sessions. Unbelievable. I replied and said 'this is not for my account' . W was her wrapped around her finger by playing victim.

Look I'm no optimist here. I am very much a realist. It may not work out. In fact the chances are very slim.  But I will not be bullied by her. Those days are over. I will walk away every time she tries. And if she won't respect my boundaries over time, I will not continue.

[christoff522]

Silent treatment, hmm.

I kinda view it from the perspective of someone in a great deal of pain. Scared of having even more emotional pain laid on top of them, they go quiet. Sometimes it is indeed abuse, they're angry at you and want to hurt you. But it simply depends on the situation.

Mine is quiet, but she's certainly not trying to hurt me, she says she isn't speaking to anyone at the moment.

I text her today, and she replied, and I told her I'd talk to her soon. She's in emotional agony right now, I'm not taking it personal.

I think that for us ST hurts because we're scared of being abandoned, it goes back to childhood issues, whether from friends or family. It's just a question of whether or not we want to spend any length of time dealing with this stuff. I don't know if I do. This is the situation I personally am in. Can I cope with someone like this? Does the relationship benefit us in any way? If it does then march on little soldier. If not, retreat and regroup, train yourself, then move on or reinitiate contact.

What we really need to use ST for is to better ourselves, to focus on ourselves. The BPD uses it for that very reason, its why often when contact is resumed they have a new partner, or they seem different in some way. Often they can use it to get over us, but we can use it for the better, we can use it to become better people, to gain our self-esteem. Even to make ourselves more attractive to our BPD partner. I decided today that I would limit my contact for the next six months, I'm already working on becoming a stronger and better man, with definite results in my social interactions and daily life. The problem I have is while my wonderful, sweet and demonic BPD is in my life, my interactions with her are pretty much the same. I don't want that, I don't want her to be my starcrossed lover, I want to be able to hold her as accountable as I would anyone else, I don't want to be scared of losing her because - frankly - I've never had her. So long as I am clingy 'co-dependent' and needy things will never change except for the worse.

Silent Treatment can work both ways - it should work both ways.

[Louise7777]

Moselle, I dont want to hijack the thread, but one of my uBPDs (the sadistic one) went into "therapy" cause a friend told her. Long story short, she wanted validation and the therapist turned into a friend that didnt help at all, she just escalated. They went shopping together, celebrated birthdays, it became weird. Then eventually my uBPD stopped seeing her, I can only assume she raged at the therapist. But it was a truly dysfunctional r/s since the beggining.

Christoff, Id say there´s a huge difference between time to cool off and silent treatment. If you google "silent treatment" you will find its mostly described as abuse, as a manipulation and control tool. Just a warning: my uPAPD said he needed time alone and wasnt talking to anybody. That turned out to be a lie. They never assume they are punishing you, making you doubt its part of the game. So please be really attentive, I may be wrong, but I see red flags there.

I like your thinking, the retrat and regroup is something I should do.

I also agree with "its not personal". Definetly its not, mine does it with everybody he thinks deserves being punished. But still, its done TO ME and Im not taking it, I dont find it acceptable in any way. Above all, its a lack of communication, mine cant say what bothers him cause he wants to be Mr Nice Guy 24/7. Funny thing, being sadistic makes him look bad (when people finally realize what ST is all about). He doesnt realize how CHILDISH and emotionaly IMATURE it is for a man in his 50´s.

Harri, I believe it also triggers you cause its such juvenile behaviour and having being raised by an uPD parent you cant take ir any longer. Nowadays I feel just EXHAUSTED. Its like Im in a kindergarten, with 40 kids yelling, raging and screaming at the same time. I guess thats mostly why ST bothers me so much, Im tired of being the adult while they get away with all their childish behaviour.

[Moselle]

Silent treatment, hmm.

I kinda view it from the perspective of someone in a great deal of pain. Scared of having even more emotional pain laid on top of them, they go quiet. Sometimes it is indeed abuse, they're angry at you and want to hurt you. But it simply depends on the situation.

Mine is quiet, but she's certainly not trying to hurt me, she says she isn't speaking to anyone at the moment.

I text her today, and she replied, and I told her I'd talk to her soon. She's in emotional agony right now, I'm not taking it personal.

I think that for us ST hurts because we're scared of being abandoned, it goes back to childhood issues, whether from friends or family. It's just a question of whether or not we want to spend any length of time dealing with this stuff. I don't know if I do. This is the situation I personally am in. Can I cope with someone like this? Does the relationship benefit us in any way? If it does then march on little soldier. If not, retreat and regroup, train yourself, then move on or reinitiate contact.

What we really need to use ST for is to better ourselves, to focus on ourselves. The BPD uses it for that very reason, its why often when contact is resumed they have a new partner, or they seem different in some way. Often they can use it to get over us, but we can use it for the better, we can use it to become better people, to gain our self-esteem. Even to make ourselves more attractive to our BPD partner. I decided today that I would limit my contact for the next six months, I'm already working on becoming a stronger and better man, with definite results in my social interactions and daily life. The problem I have is while my wonderful, sweet and demonic BPD is in my life, my interactions with her are pretty much the same. I don't want that, I don't want her to be my starcrossed lover, I want to be able to hold her as accountable as I would anyone else, I don't want to be scared of losing her because - frankly - I've never had her. So long as I am clingy 'co-dependent' and needy things will never change except for the worse.

Silent Treatment can work both ways - it should work both ways.

christoff, this makes about the most sense I've read in a long time. It is inspiring, and it is just spot on.

Mine is definitely in sadistic witch mode though. She's using it to restrict contact with my kids too (and she knows that's the easiest way to hurt me). She shooed them off Skype last night because I was spending too much time with them. So I think I am in the envious position of her wanting my exclusive attention, but then doing NC (simultaneous push/pull). I've been quite nonchalant about it, but she's so clever, she knows she's rattled my cage.

She is making it clear to the children that I've done something wrong and am being punished for it. My great sin was boundary defense BTW. She was wanting to work on the relationship and have long conversations. It was too much for me, and I asked her for a day's space to get myself organised. I broke her rule of immediate resolution. And she's been NC for 8 days now.

I am visiting the kids this week and I will be careful to explain to them how ST shows very little respect and though mommy says she is doing it for space there is a way to ask for space which shows respect.

I have used the time wisely as well though. I am coming more into my skin than I have been in a long time. More grounded, more wisemind. It feels good.

Thanks for your post!

[christoff522]

christoff, this makes about the most sense I've read in a long time. It is inspiring, and it is just spot on.

Mine is definitely in sadistic witch mode though. She's using it to restrict contact with my kids too (and she knows that's the easiest way to hurt me). She shooed them off Skype last night because I was spending too much time with them. So I think I am in the envious position of her wanting my exclusive attention, but then doing NC (simultaneous push/pull). I've been quite nonchalant about it, but she's so clever, she knows she's rattled my cage.

She knows you, very well... she's studied you. She knows what makes you tick, what gets you aroused, what makes you sad, what makes you happy. It's how the BPD can detect something is up, when something that once made you happy/sad or bothered you works no longer. She knows when you seem different. One of the big problems with a BPD is the need to control everything. If they're in a group - she's the boss of that group and everyone aligns to her will, in a relationship however much the lady doth protest... she wears the trousers (and she hates it).  Remain non-chalant, between contacts take a day to recoup, without accusing you of something she can't really stop you from seeing your children, simply remain friendly, and emphasise that this is about the children not about you two, stick to your guns calmly and she'll respect you for it.

She is making it clear to the children that I've done something wrong and am being punished for it. My great sin was boundary defense BTW. She was wanting to work on the relationship and have long conversations. It was too much for me, and I asked her for a day's space to get myself organised. I broke her rule of immediate resolution. And she's been NC for 8 days now.

If she is trying to turn the kids against you, well that ain't cool. You see so long as she has custody she has something over you, this is a real problem and this should be the main focus. Try talking to a family lawyer, it's the best thing to do to know your rights, I'm pretty sure doing what she is doing could be termed abuse. It's nice that she wanted to work on the relationship, but your relationship breakup should have no bearing on the children that need to be protected from this. Because of the breakup she's going to be focusing a lot of her BPDness on the kids. You really need to get this sorted. Just think how much she mindf***ed you, imagine being little kids. Again no desire to scare you, but go see someone on that.

I am visiting the kids this week and I will be careful to explain to them how ST shows very little respect and though mommy says she is doing it for space there is a way to ask for space which shows respect.

Make sure you do, it sounds as though your visits are going to be basically therapy sessions for the children to undo much of the damage she will be doing,

I have used the time wisely as well though. I am coming more into my skin than I have been in a long time. More grounded, more wisemind. It feels good.

This is the best news ever, thats how it needs to be, the more grounded, rounded and real you are... the more you 'know thyself', the less power that she can have over you.

Thanks for your post!

Thank you for your reply!

[goingtostopthis]

Harri,

            I meant to answer you on this last night but didnt have time, now this post has traveled along away so Im not sure where my comments will fit in but I'll give it go anyways.


                                                I get triggered by the silent treatment too.  I had one boyfriend that did this to me and it kept me obsessed with him for 3 years,   then recently my BPD realtionship which ended this July.  He ended it with the silent treatment which was horrible.  First time he split on me in January, this was his tactic.  I have never been in such misery and torture before in my life.  I couldnt believe someone could be so cruel.

                                                  I was so angry because I have had a problem in my past with this other boyfriend that did this.  I really developed a problem emotionally over it. I couldnt stop compulsively trying to contact him. It was like I couldnt control myself and then when I did I'd get really sick.  The tension would built up and built up to the point where I just couldnt stand it any longer and I'd lose control and have to try to contact him.  It was embarrassing and so humiliating to me.  The more I tried to contact him the deeper I got into my own pit which naturally meant less likely he would ever answer and the worse I felt.  It would be like a high when Id try to contact him followed by the lowest of lows when I realized he was not going to answer. Hope followed by crash and burn.   It made me compulsive. It was bad.

                                                I told my BPD boyfriend that doing this to me triggers me really bad and to please not treat me this way.  He didnt care.  He didnt even have anything legit to be mad about in the first place. I never really knew exactly what it was I had done wrong, and me too went through a phase where I would say I was sorry,  to what ever,  to make things be ok again.  The ST is such a horribly mean thing to do.  I personally cant think of anything meaner to do to a person. 

  We were going on some time after this where I thought every was ok.  We were getting along fine and chatting with each other until very slowly he started becoming more and more distant to me when we were on chat.   Id ask him a question and it would take him 5 minutes to answer me,  then 6 minutes,  and Im thinking , what is he doing, his laundry!   I mean, that's fine but at least tell me because im sitting here watching the screen waiting for you.

   This continued and got worse until I said something about it, and true to form as a BPD, he acused me of being controling to him.   I was actually asking for a little courtesy. I couldnt figure out why one day he would engage with me and the next day played this game.   It came to a head and he used it as an excuse I guess to end the relationship.It was long distance and I asked him, are you seeing someone. I wanted him to be honest since we live in two different countries,  it happens, I would have been upset,  but I would have understood what was going on. He said no he wasnt and I think he was telling the truth, just having another splitting melt down, out of no where, telling me it was over because he didnt like answering his cell phone while he was on the jon.  Ya. He said that!      and then just cut me off!  like this one song I know. Blocked me.     No closure, no nothing,   >and me true to form tried to write him several emails.  no answer,  then I got mad and confronted him about BPD, but I did it loveingly with alot of careful craft, meaning Im trying to help I love you.    Nothing,  Nothing ,  NOthing,   still nothing to this day,3  month s later.  I know hes spying on my FB page.  I know it.  It bothers me.   I still get tempted and sometimes slip and try to write him again.  still nothing for ever, for ever in his hell. It really makes you hate them. 

[Moselle]

She knows you, very well... she's studied you. She knows what makes you tick, what gets you aroused, what makes you sad, what makes you happy. It's how the BPD can detect something is up, when something that once made you happy/sad or bothered you works no longer. She knows when you seem different. One of the big problems with a BPD is the need to control everything. If they're in a group - she's the boss of that group and everyone aligns to her will, in a relationship however much the lady doth protest... she wears the trousers (and she hates it).  Remain non-chalant, between contacts take a day to recoup, without accusing you of something she can't really stop you from seeing your children, simply remain friendly, and emphasise that this is about the children not about you two, stick to your guns calmly and she'll respect you for it.

Will do!

Just think how much she mindf***ed you, imagine being little kids. Again no desire to scare you, but go see someone on that

That is about the most scary thing I can imagine. Done the legal thing but i can't go into detail because I dont want to put my Iegal strategy on the net. She knows she's batsh1t crazy. She desperately doesn't want the same thing to happen to the kids. We sat with eldest and she apologised for hurting her self esteem. I think she's trying. But will power won't do it. We tried that for years...

Make sure you do, it sounds as though your visits are going to be basically therapy sessions for the children to undo much of the damage she will be doing.



Yes, this is the sad truth. I'm taking a few books with me to read from.

This is the best news ever, thats how it needs to be, the more grounded, rounded and real you are... the more you 'know thyself', the less power that she can have over you



Yes, I think she'll be trying to get me in the sack. It's not going to happen. I'll keep having somewhere to be

[Louise7777]

Goingtostopthis, you wrote

"I never really knew exactly what it was I had done wrong, and me too went through a phase where I would say I was sorry,  to what ever,  to make things be ok again."

Same here. Every time the ST periods got longer and longer. And I apologized via email, tried to contact him on phone and he wouldnt pick up. He probably had the joy of his life seeing me desperate and apologetic. Looking back, I was so stupid! I gave him the control. I apologized, what for? (I dont have those emails anymore, Im sure if I read them Id think it was written by a hostage).

Now I find MY own behaviour stranger than his. Why would I try to make things better with my torturer? (yeah, Im being dramatic just to make a point  ) Must be some variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

I think they train us little by little and we dont even notice it. We give in bit by bit and when we wake up we are being disrespected in the most bizarre ways.

I confort myself thinking that people like that must have very little pleasure in life, cause playing such idiotic games seem childish and silly to me. And its counter-productive on top of it!

[goingtostopthis]

Goingtostopthis, you wrote

"I never really knew exactly what it was I had done wrong, and me too went through a phase where I would say I was sorry,  to what ever,  to make things be ok again."

Same here. Every time the ST periods got longer and longer. And I apologized via email, tried to contact him on phone and he wouldnt pick up. He probably had the joy of his life seeing me desperate and apologetic. Looking back, I was so stupid! I gave him the control. I apologized, what for? (I dont have those emails anymore, Im sure if I read them Id think it was written by a hostage).

Now I find MY own behaviour stranger than his. Why would I try to make things better with my torturer? (yeah, Im being dramatic just to make a point  ) Must be some variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

I think they train us little by little and we dont even notice it. We give in bit by bit and when we wake up we are being disrespected in the most bizarre ways.

I confort myself thinking that people like that must have very little pleasure in life, cause playing such idiotic games seem childish and silly to me. And its counter-productive on top of it!

   It breaks your heart further then any heart can be broken.   I thought my ex loved me.  It just showed to me that he wasnt the person he pretended to be.  It showed me that our relationship was only about him and his irrationality. It confirmed his BPD.  Also I felt he did it to feed off me. Like he secretly got off on it as a means of attention to boost his weak insecure,pathedic ego.  By making me feel pathedic he felt better. Im sure he all of a sudden came out of his depresssion when he did it and got really creative with his art work.  This is what happened the first time. He was telling me how wounded and hurt HE was over this imaginary thing I supposively did, this of course cancelled out the pain I was going through as if it didnt exsist at all.  He acted like he was the most wounded person in the world and what I did was something that he could never repair. Like I was that bad.  The whole time I thought he was doing nothing as he indicated because he was so depressed.  When he decided he wanted to be friends again, he skyped me and proceeded  to show off all around his living room all these stain glass windows he had done during the 3 week period he was giviing me the silent treatment.,before all this he could barely lift a pen.   While I was going through hell ,he was high in on a

creative binj all suped up on himself.  I was disgusted.  It was sick!   

[Harri]

So much going on in the thread now... .I am not sure where to start replying.  I am going to just go with what sticks out in my mind the most.

Louise, hi!  I agree that ST is sadism, or at least for the people who use it as a weapon.  I never really saw it that way until you told me.  I have been looking at ST in terms of the person doing it being hurt and damaged and that is true, but there are lots of hurt and damaged people in the world who do not lash out or try to control others.  My mother was a controller and so was my ex.  In the case of my ex, right now I don't care if he needed time to himself.  He knew how it affected me and I am now convinced he used ST to 'teach me a lesson'... .he really is that arrogant.  And yes, years later, I am finally angry enough to perhaps move on once I work the anger out of my system.  My mother was a whole different game though.  She used it to control but she also believed she was wronged, I was evil and she was justified.  It still hurts and it was incredibly damaging to me as a kid, but I know it was part of her illness and I just lump it into the pile along with her other fruit loop capers.  

I am sorry you have had to deal with that from your friend.  I hear you about being tired of giving.  I posted that a page or so back and I have been thinking about it.  I was feeling so damaged and deficient so to see you feeling some of the very same, while I am sorry for it, I don't feel so alone.  I want to want to feel compassion and want to help... .but I can't fake it or force it.  It will just lead to frustration, anger and resentment and self loathing.  I don't need any more of that.

So, given all this, if somebody uses it with you again, just take a step back, breath deep and realize its THEIR problem, not YOURS. You dont have to do anything but leave.

Yes!  Thank you.  I just decided it is a deal breaker and I don't care who it is.  Maybe the next time around I wont spend so much time wondering what is wrong with me and why are they rejecting me.  Reading your response I remembered shortly after my mother started taking to me again after I abandoned her by moving away (she had not really talked to me for at least a year and after that it was yelling and 'you did ___ to me" BS) I gave it back to her a bit.  We got into an argument and the ST came up and I told her I was her daughter and I deserved to be treated with dignity... .actually I yelled it at her   but she never did it after that, though I did not really give her a chance to either.

I have been wondering what it is in me that first, forgot this was abuse and was trying to figure out how to be comfy with ST and how to not get all messed up inside when it happens, because regardless of it being abuse, it is still a trigger for me.

Moselle, I hope you will be able to talk with your girls like you wish about the ST and how damaging it can be and more appropriate ways of needing some alone time    I wonder if your wife is behaving this way to your girls?  Granted, I only know my family dynamics, but I think it would be remarkable if your wife is able to control herself with them... .though maybe the silver lining is that right now all her rage is focused on you?  ACK!  Sorry my friend, but better you than them... .even better would be her just stopping this crap.     The fact that she is trying to turn your kids against you is worrisome A.  Just be warrior you and demonstrate to them what love respect and trust is really all about.

Christoff, I am glad you have been able to find a benefit in the ST in terms of using the time to work on yourself.  Personally, I think there are less painful and manipulative ways, but if you are an adult in a r/s with someone who uses ST to control, then perhaps it is a bit different.  

GoingTST, I am sorry your friend and your ex used this on you.  I too go into a tailspin when it happens.  I can remember begging, on my knees, for my mother to talk to me.  I finally stopped after seeing the look of satisfaction in her eyes one time.  B*tch.  Yeah, I am angry still.  What you described happening with your boyfriend is similar to what happened with my ex.  He too twisted it around to me wanting to control him and then he called me whiney and clingy and of course it was because I was more disordered than he (we are both Nons--- his mom was also uBPD but he always saw me as more flawed and often tried to paint me BPD)  

GoingTST, give yourself closure on this one.  He is abusive, manipulative and controlling.  You deserve better than what he was giving to you.  He sounds like a real jerk to be honest.  I mean no offense.  I am a bit riled up right now.  Reading what you wrote brought me right back to my ex and my mom.  I feel for you... .it hurts and it sucks and I am so very sorry you had to go through all that.  

****So, as I have been reading the thread and thinking about the ST, I realized that I have made a clear distinction between needing some time alone to think and the silent treatment.  My ex did both of those.  I had difficulty with both, but much worse when it was ST.  The thing is, I reacted the very same way when it was him just being quiet or needing some thinking time.  I think it was Christoff who mentioned it triggers our fear of abandonment and I have to agree that that is true in my case.  I am no longer concerned when it is ST but I am concerned that I will still respond the same way when it is not... .I do fear abandonment and I know exactly why.  The challenge is to get myself through it without freaking out.  It seems I need someone to come over here, talk with me a bit and then go all quiet on me... .any volunteers?  I need to practice dammit!  

Okay, I'm going back to read some more.  I think I might have missed some important points.  Thanks everyone for all the replies.  

[Louise7777]

Hi again, Harri! I feel conforted that other people are going through the same (unfortunately), cause they are the only ones that truly understand!

You mentioned your ex wanted to teach you a lesson. My ex did too. And I told him "Im not a child to be grounded. You resume contact when you feel you punished me enough. That makes YOU the child, cause you are uncapable of normal communication".  Of course he denied it, but he listened to all I had to say. He sort of respected me for over a year (although I was walking on eggshells) and now just got back to his old habits. But I got it out of my system, at least he knows Im aware of his stupid game now.

If you want some reinforcement that ST is abuse, google the 3 words and you will find amazing articles. I saw my ex in most examples. I felt so validated!

To avoid being triggered, Id suggest you take a moment and think how imature that person is. Its really sad. The 2 passive-aggressive guys I dated had no social life, no love life and one managed to get married but it ended in divorce and the adult kids didnt want to have much to do with him. They are really self-sabotaging people, so selfish that they cant realize they get great partners and then ruin everything. I feel sorry for them, but instinctively ran away from the 1st one, I was sorry for him but at the same time felt the black hole there... .

[Moselle]

Moselle, I hope you will be able to talk with your girls like you wish about the ST and how damaging it can be and more appropriate ways of needing some alone time    I wonder if your wife is behaving this way to your girls?  Granted, I only know my family dynamics, but I think it would be remarkable if your wife is able to control herself with them... .though maybe the silver lining is that right now all her rage is focused on you?  ACK!  Sorry my friend, but better you than them... .even better would be her just stopping this crap.     The fact that she is trying to turn your kids against you is worrisome A.  Just be warrior you and demonstrate to them what love respect and trust is really all you can do.

Harri, I think ST is actually her claiming the exclusive right to be victim. She feels sleighted (imagined or otherwise) to satisfy her voracious appetite for victimhood.

Two weeks ago, we sat calmly and constructively during DBT, discussing how hurting someone we love satisfies a short term need, but does not get us what we want in the long term. I think in her mind this only applies to me. She perhaps convinces herself that she is exempt from that.

She is very highly functioning so she can definitely control it.  She does it every day.

OK, well her choices are her choices. I can't  control her. And yes the heartbreaking thing is that I will be engaged in a battle for my children's sanity between dependence and independence. Bullying versus loving, BPD versus healthy. She is teaching them the ways she was taught. God help me?

[Harri]

Louise, I did spend some time reading about ST and it did confirm that it is abuse.  I will remember what you said next time (I hope it never happens tho).  I will use Wools mantra of "It's not about me" when someone is just being quiet or needing some space. 

Moselle, I have been wondering how you are managing during your visit.  God will help you as you help yourself and your kids.  Give them the tools to fight her in good and healthy ways of course.  The witch part of her BPD especially concerns me in regards to your kids (you too BTW).  Have you ever seen her go into witch mode around your girls?  Earlier in this thread I mentioned Mood Gym, an online, free CBT course that can be geared for kids (I remember you said they currently do not have a counselor).  It is all fine for us to talk about not taking the abuse and walking away, but kids can't do that and I have no idea what kinds of tools can be used by kids so they are not annihilated by a Queen/Witch mother's rages and silent treatments. 

Be good to yourself Moselle during this visit.  I will be praying for you to maintain your strength and wisemind warrior state.   

[Moselle]

Louise, I did spend some time reading about ST and it did confirm that it is abuse.  I will remember what you said next time (I hope it never happens tho).  I will use Wools mantra of "It's not about me" when someone is just being quiet or needing some space. 

Moselle, I have been wondering how you are managing during your visit.  God will help you as you help yourself and your kids.  Give them the tools to fight her in good and healthy ways of course.  The witch part of her BPD especially concerns me in regards to your kids (you too BTW).  Have you ever seen her go into witch mode around your girls?  Earlier in this thread I mentioned Mood Gym, an online, free CBT course that can be geared for kids (I remember you said they currently do not have a counselor).  It is all fine for us to talk about not taking the abuse and walking away, but kids can't do that and I have no idea what kinds of tools can be used by kids so they are not annihilated by a Queen/Witch mother's rages and silent treatments. 

Be good to yourself Moselle during this visit.  I will be praying for you to maintain your strength and wisemind warrior state.   

Harri, that post is an answer to prayer. Thank you. My mind is racing. I'm there at 2 PM today. For the first night I decided to take the kids and stay  somewhere else. Just to break the initial ice. Saturday afternoon will be the big test. I will allow her to calm down and pray for the moment when I can hug her, sit her down and say basically that the abuse is over. It is over. Abuse of me abuse of the children. Shine the warm light on it. Calmly but firmly let her know, again that the game is over. She'll probably start blaming me. I'll smile warmly intil it fizzles out. Then I'll give her a hug, say we can do this together. She will hopefully get to the state where she was last time where we called my eldest in and W said sorry for hurting her self esteem. If I can get her there, I Will call them all in and make the Rubicon speech in a kind way. Shine the light on the dark places.

" If these things happen and you are made to feel bad by anyone, firstly you have the right to speak about about it. Come to me or if I'm not here, to uncle Ian, aunty Sam, or uncle Tony. (I'M going to prep these three adults beforehand)"

Family discussion: "What are we going to do? How do we handle it and let the person know we love them,  but don't accept the behaviour."

Something along those lines. I'l wait for my moment and if it doesnt come this visit. Then perhaps next time. Any feedback? Should I prep the kids beforehand.? I need W's involvement so she doesn't feel isolated. I know she desperately doesn't want her children to get this. That is my trump card.

[Harri]

Hi there A.  I read this earlier this morning before going to bed and I prayed that you would find a way or that I would be able to help you.  So, did you get some answers?  I don't feel like I did, but lets see if we can figure this out.

Your ideas seem sound to me and I like that you will have people ready for the kids.  I am not sure what the line is between telling your kids what they need to know and having your wife feel alienated and singled out by it all.  I think the kids needs trump mom's but I also think it is important to keep mom in the loop so as not to isolate her as you stated. 

Moselle, is there any way you can have the kids live with you during this separation? That would help to insulate them from the insanity and allow your wife to focus on DBT, maybe even get into a residential treatment program?  If she wants to get better and wants to give the girls a fighting chance, maybe she would be agreeable?

Moselle, I am getting into areas where I have no healthy understanding of how this should work.  My own fears and biases are clamoring to the surface and I am having a hard time separating it all.  Every instinct in me is saying take the girls and have them stay with you.  Consider the source here. 

Is that a possibility?

[Moselle]

Hi Harri.

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry if this triggers you own experience.  That must be tough to deal with.

Realistically I can't take the kids right now, but I can get them out and have a break from the FOG. And teach them a better way.  I have to do it by example not by words though.  So its about pulling myself out of the mud first. I'm getting there.

Remember W is incredibly high functioning so.she impresses people. There realised a wow factor to her. Charming, caring. The perfect mother. This facade was taught her by her parents. And she knows this too. When she's not in denial. At home the queen and witch come out to play. Behind closed doors in the shadows, in the dark.

[Harri]

I did forget she is so high functioning.  I was focusing more on the fact that she is diagnosed.

I do still believe that you can offer them safe refuge and be an example of normal and healthy so I am still firmly on team Moselle.  Lord know you are doing everything in your power and then some.

Behind closed doors in the shadows, in the dark.

Well, the darkness can be lessened as you keep shining your own light so brightly Moselle.

PS. It is not that I am triggered so much as I am not familiar with the process you are undertaking.  All I can do is go by what my internal signals are... .and they are hard to read as my mind is set on things like 'get out' and 'run' so the head is jumbling the gut messages if that makes sense.  As you are going through this journey and shining your light on your own experiences your light is spilling over into my own so even if I am triggered, it is good and healing.  Thank you.   

[Moselle]

I did forget she is so high functioning.  I was focusing more on the fact that she is diagnosed.

I do still believe that you can offer them safe refuge and be an example of normal and healthy so I am still firmly on team Moselle.  Lord know you are doing everything in your power and then some.

Behind closed doors in the shadows, in the dark.

Well, the darkness can be lessened as you keep shining your own light so brightly Moselle.

PS. It is not that I am triggered so much as I am not familiar with the process you are undertaking.  All I can do is go by what my internal signals are... .and they are hard to read as my mind is set on things like 'get out' and 'run' so the head is jumbling the gut messages if that makes sense.  As you are going through this journey and shining your light on your own experiences your light is spilling over into my own so even if I am triggered, it is good and healing.  Thank you.   

I had a long chat with my 13 year old. I asked how she was feeling and really gave her a chance to open up. She clams up (for obvious reasons) but I got her to talk about the pain of the separation. She had some tears and then I started to talk about how I now know she did not have a stellar example of how to have a relationship. I asked her if she understood that mom was abusive towards me, and she said Yes. I asked her if she thought W respects me. And she said 'no'. I said well I'm going to tell you and don't forget it, that if someone is abusive and disrespects you, you remove yourself from the situation and tell them that its unacceptable. And after that,  if they continue, you remove yourself from the relationship for your own good. And she agreed with me.

I hugged her alot, and kept on reminding her that I love her no matter what, I will always love her. I remembered what you said that it takes just one adult to love a child unconditionally,  to rescue them. I've also got a phone for them. So no more keeping me away from them!

I explained that mommy has a hard time controlling her emotions and that sometimes she will get mad at you. If she shouts, it is abuse. And you say it's unacceptable.  Then i prepared her that she would be told it's her fault and made to feel bad. That's when you leave. Go for a walk or go to your room.

She said mom has been doing better, and if she was angry she asked for space and went to her room. Wow. The CBT is paying off!

[Harri]

That is wonderful news.  Well done Moselle!  I am glad D13 opened up to you.  For your wife to say she needed some space is amazing.

[goingtostopthis]

Harri,


     Thanks for mentioning my thoughts.  Ive all ways thought that people who do this , do it out of their own insecurities of being rejected themselves, so they do it to you first. We also have to remember that people with BPD are not all ways thinking rational thoughts.  I remember how shocked I was when my ex all of a sudden turned on me. It was like  he was no longer the same person!  , and it didnt matter how hard I tried to sort things out and to be sorry. He didnt want to sort things out.  He wanted to run me through the coals over so many things that did not make any sense.

              Ive had to remember and Im still reminding myself of the amount of stress he had been putting me through and how according to his behavior he was making it a no chance thing that our relationship could ever have a future. I was the only one putting out actual actions that would bring us back together again. It was LD at this point. He told me story after story about how he wanted to come see me and how he was seriously considering coming to live here.  That changed as if these talks never happened and all of a sudden all he wanted was for me to magically somehow come to see him again knowing full well I had all ready spent every cent I had seeing him.

  +  I feel like he punished me because  I failed to live up to his unrealistic fantasies of how "I" was suppose to make everything right for HIM,  while he had no obligations to make anything right for me. I never used that word with him, (Obligations)  he did in reference to me.  I only wanted him to want to be with me because he wanted to. I learned that he was just too busy keeping things the way they were for "himself" with out having to exstend himself in any way.

not getting a job, never having any money, all ways the victim in everything he lacked having.

  This was his life style before he met me. Free loading off the state and using the corrupt government as an excuse to for ever remain a victim.

   After the first split he said he didnt love me the same anymore, which really hurt, but I couldnt figure this out because I hadnt changed a bit.  I was the same person.   It was like I wasnt the same person to him anymore because I had been dirtied some how.  He turned so mean.  A real A-hole and Im sure he knew it but didnt care. He was acting like a spoiled little kid who had gotten away with skirting the system and was some how proud of his self made victimhood, because he all ways knew he could pull out that card and get people to give him things for free. While I on the other hand had worked hard for everything I own.  I secretly resented him for not getting a job and getting his life together because listening to him complain about  how he was suffering  day after day, month after month   never doing anything to change this,  he all ways had excuses. It was so BPD,  it was exhausting to me. He'd almost have something good happen to him and then at the last minute is would fall through somehow. Then I started wondering how much of this stuff is he making up. Like he might be intentionally doing this to play with my emotions because he knew how much I wanted him to improve his life and make money< so he could come and see ME!

   It took a while for me to admit,  this is a very sick guy and I cant help him. Allowing things to fall through I believe was his secret pleasure.  I really dont know how he lives with himself after all the emotional torture he has put me through.  It didnt matter that I was all ways there for him as a really good friend if anything. He didnt want responsibility to himself let alone me.  He didnt want to have responsibility to anything! If I was acting subconsciously dis enchanted it was for a good reason, a good healthy reason. I often wonder if he wasnt picking this up. I suppose he got mad because a part of me I was trying to hide wouldnt play along with him anymore with in his fantasy world of getting things you want for doing nothing to make things happen in order to get the things you want. I was suppose to do it all. This is how BPD's use you.      I dont think he knew he was because he cant accept he's got a problem.  But all in all I feel like I was put through Hell with him , put through something that soley had to do with him,  and nothing to do with me.     

                I have to remember what he put me through to gain a good perspective over how well Im doing now with out all his mean spirited drama and strife.  He was controling and no one needs that. I was the one who felt obligated to all ways talk to him when he wanted to regardless of what was going on with me at the time.  My needs and problems got counted out while his all ways took precedence .  It got old.  Im tired just writing about this.  They hook you, and then they drain you and then they dump you.  Sweet Aye?   I wish I could get a plane ticket to England just so I could have the pleasure of slapping him across the face and pushing him into the wall.  That would be enough,  Id feel better and then go home.  ( :