Hard day... Part 3

[MaroonLiquid]

Wow... .Guys, I realized tonight my wife is more mentally unstable than I imagined.  I called her and she picked up the phone.  I said hey, I can meet you at 11 at (named the place), give you the charger and discuss the insurance.  She said real hateful, "What is there to discuss?"  I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  She said that she is not interested in doing anything different.  I asked her if that means she doesn't want to work on the marriage, and she said that all she "agreed" to was talking about our issues with a counselor, not working on the marriage (BIG FAT LIE) and I said that I hear what she is saying and at the same time, it makes me feel used.  You don't want to work on the marriage but you want to have my insurance.  She said it doesn't cost me anymore  to have them on but it will cost her 600 a month.  She said I can agree to give it to her now or she'll get it in a temporary orders hearing for divorce (which she can't).  I asked her if she filed and she said no.  I told her that I'm sorry that hers cost so much, but this separation is what she chose.  I didn't.  She said that me throwing her against the wall is what got us here.  I almost went through the phone, but very calmly without edge or raising my voice said, "You and I both know the truth."  I said in fact, you have hit me repeatedly over the years and I have had bruises.  She told me I was mentally ill and that she has never laid a hand in me and that she was done with the conversation, my blackmailing and hung up.  I was shocked.  She projected BIG TIME!  She is completely delusional and deceived right now.  It is heartbreaking to watch my wife self destruct like this!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[itgirl]

So sorry to hear.  I thought your wife were reaching out to you with the charger.  I think you are doing great under the circumstances but maybe your conversation was invalidating.  I'm sure the big guns will tell you what you could have said differently.

good luck with your day.  we are all here suffering with you.

[formflier]

  I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  

Maroon,

In my opinion... .she baited... .and you bit.  That was not a good interaction.  More later

[MaroonLiquid]

 I told her we can talk about it tomorrow but one of the things is the restoration of our marriage.  

Maroon,

In my opinion... .she baited... .and you bit.  That was not a good interaction.  More later

FF, I understand what you're saying.  The problem is, her story and lies change everytime we talk or she opens her mouth.  There is no truth in her right now.  I validated what I could at the beginning of the convo (the cost of the insurance) and she changed her story to be the opposite of what I validated.  Honestly, this is way beyond validation.  She doesn't know what the truth is anymore.  When she can say that I'm delusional, and she has never hit me?  I'm sorry, I'm not as concerned for my marriage at this point as much as I am her well being.  I am dealing with someone who may need an intervention.  The problem is, I believe she is giving me clues (inadvertantly) a little at a time of what she has told people about me.  I think what is keeping her "afloat" right now is the kids.  I'm concerned for her TBH... .I'm the one trying to change our situation, and she is doing everything she can to sabotage and make it worse.  I'm starting to feel like no matter how I approach this, I'm a failure... .

[formflier]

 

Not a failure... .

Please read Grey Kitty's post... .very wise words there.  Boundaries protect you... .

Boundaries can't "force" a change in other people... .neither can lessons.

They may help make change possible... .but ultimately it is her choice.

I'll get on later and try to give some more points...

[MaroonLiquid]

Should I tell her one more time where I will be for lunch and leave it at that?  If she shows, she shows and if not, not?

[formflier]

Should I tell her one more time where I will be for lunch and leave it at that?  If she shows, she shows and if not, not?

How did you guys leave it?

At most I would send her a very bland update... .something like... ."looks like I'll be on time for our lunch today at 12... ."

No question... just a status update...

I would not say ... ."looking forward to... ."

Remember... theory is... you are living your life... .going to lunch...   She has been clearly invited... .

You go about your life... .she makes her decisions.

Don't be critical of her decisions... .just affirm the decisions you make.

Thoughts on this?

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is, her story and lies change everytime we talk or she opens her mouth.  There is no truth in her right now.

I believe you. There was a time in my life where I was keeping a daily diary... .mostly about what my wife and I said and did to each other, as that was the biggest stress in my life by a long shot. The diary helped my sanity a lot--I would get distorted reality like that from her. I took to writing it in my diary as well. I don't have the energy to go back and look to see how often it happened now! When it feels like you are a victim of gaslighting, it is easy to get confused... .and easy to get really angry.

However, when it comes to your reality vs. your wife's reality, two things matter.

1: Never, ever, EVER, believe her reality instead of your own.

(I think you have this one down pretty well by now.)

2: Stop trying to convince her that her reality doesn't match facts. (Or your reality)

Chances of actually convincing her are slim to none. And whether you succeed or fail at convincing her, the attempt is invalidating--it throws fuel onto the fires her mental illness.

Or at least before you try to convince her of something like this... .ask yourself: What possible good will come of saying this?

[formflier]

 

Grey Kitty nailed it.

You also don't want to agree with it... .the distorted reality.

That is why it is helpful to use STOP to remember how to respond.

Sorry you feel that way

That's your opinion

Oh...

Perhaps you are right... (note... I personally don't use or recommend the last one... )

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted her this morning where I would be And left it at that.  She responded and said to drop it by her doorstep.  I repeated my last text and I said that I would not drop it at her door.  I showed up at 11, she came in a few minutes later and walked up to the table and said, "I want the charger so I can go."  I said, "Let's have lunch together as we have some things to talk about and she said no.  She started to make a scene by raising her voice (said that she will not sit down that she has meetings and I'm keeping her from work), started to get angry, and I got up, paid for my drink, and walked outside.  She walked to her car, got in, rolled down the window and stuck her hand out and started to cry.  I said, "Wife, whatever is going on, we can work through it together.  I love you. I didn't have the charger so I went and bought you one."  Handed her the box, she shut her window on me and she drove off crying.  I never yelled, raised my voice, was just even keel.  I sowed a seed with that charger.  That is the way I'm looking at it.  I did that out of the goodness of my heart.  I can't do anymore than that.  She then posted on Facebook a few minutes later that said, "Promises broken by a father to his children, that are not acknowledged by forgiveness asked, devastate their sense of trusting anyone.  Wow... .P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N!

[formflier]

 

I'm sure that was tough... .I feel bad that i didn't have time to work through more of this ahead of time.

The theory is that you want to "reward" good behavior and don't acknowledge bad behavior.  Since she didn't have a reasonable discussion with you... .I am a bit worried about this reinforcing bad behavior.

That may be a little bit of a transactional way to look at it... .others may have a different take

Here is the thing... .if she wants to make a scene... .she will make one.  You need to stay and live your life... .enjoy your lunch.  Her showing up or not... shouldn't affect you having a nice lunch.  The value of being in a public place is that it will be obvious to the world who is reasonable and who is not... .you are ONLY responsible for making sure you are reasonable.

I really think and hope that you get another shot at a situation like this and that you stay and enjoy lunch.  If there is mutual agreement to follow that up with a new plan for doing another activity... happily go do that.

So... I'm curious... .what was the reason you got up and left? 

Hang in there man... .you are pouring your heart into this... .I commend you for that... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Thank you for helping.  I don't want to reward bad behavior, and I can see how I could have done that.  She is leaving on our "family trip" tomorrow until Thursday so probably not another chance to see her until after she gets back.  As far as getting up and leaving, I dont know why I did.  I guess because it was embarrassing and I don't like those kind of situations.  I could have sat there and let her be uncomfortable and probably should have.  She got her way, AGAIN.  Wow.  I am curious as to why she cried though.  That was the first time in 5 weeks we've seen each other.  She is "stone" right now.  I am putting everything I have into this.  I love her... .I want her to know I'm safe. 

[formflier]

  She got her way, AGAIN.  Wow.

You have improved tons... .it will continue to get better. 

  I am curious as to why she cried though.  

If there is anyway to put the curiosity behind you.  Here's why... .

figuring out why "nons" do things can be tough enough... figuring out why a pwBPD traits does something... .good luck.

You can generally see where this fits into a pattern of behavior... .but I would stay away from finding out why she did things.

I WOULD encourage you to notice emotions and validate those. 

Just focus on her emotion... nothing else... .don't add any other thoughts or points... .

How do you think you could validate seeing her crying... .?

[MaroonLiquid]

I did say to her that it's obvious she's upset and that we can work through whatever is bothering her together.  I feel like I fail every chance I get though at times. 

[formflier]

  we can work through whatever is bothering her together.  

So... .that above part is the T... .of your SET.

Think about what you could do that would look like SE... .SE... .SE... .T... .or little t.

Practice saying it by yourself... .make sure you are talking outloud.

To be honest... .i still feel clumsy doing it myself... .

I think it was waverider that described SE (validation) as the oil that makes things work better.  It doesn't "fix" BPD... .but when things are this "cranky" in the r/s... .you need some oil.

[formflier]

Maroon,

Hey... .let's take a minute and pause... .let's think about you first.  If you remember reading other posts... .critical... critical... that you get that going in right direction before trying to work on the r/s.

So... .assume I know nothing about your story.  and the request below might be a good thing to break out in a new thread... I would encourage that.

Tell me about you.  Tell me about your emotional and mental health over the past year... .or longer if you want.  What have you worked on in IC?  Or have you ever been?

Maybe the title of the post is "where do I go from here... "  Sure... we may talk a bit about the r/s... .but mostly want to focus on you... .and where you go from here... .regardless of r/s status. 

Think of this as going to gym... .or going to the gym more... .or analyzing your workout routine to see what you need to improve on.

I think it would be good to let some guys with lots of experience look at your "workout routine"... .and see what we can do to improve that.

How does that help your r/s?  Women are generally attracted to confident, secure, men.  Maybe another way of looking at this... .  You can decide to keep putting the polish on you being "husband" material... .that is totally in your control... .  So... focus on that.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

Hey... .let's take a minute and pause... .let's think about you first.  If you remember reading other posts... .critical... critical... that you get that going in right direction before trying to work on the r/s.

So... .assume I know nothing about your story.  and the request below might be a good thing to break out in a new thread... I would encourage that.

Tell me about you.  Tell me about your emotional and mental health over the past year... .or longer if you want.  What have you worked on in IC?  Or have you ever been?

Maybe the title of the post is "where do I go from here... "  Sure... we may talk a bit about the r/s... .but mostly want to focus on you... .and where you go from here... .regardless of r/s status. 

Think of this as going to gym... .or going to the gym more... .or analyzing your workout routine to see what you need to improve on.

I think it would be good to let some guys with lots of experience look at your "workout routine"... .and see what we can do to improve that.

How does that help your r/s?  Women are generally attracted to confident, secure, men.  Maybe another way of looking at this... .  You can decide to keep putting the polish on you being "husband" material... .that is totally in your control... .  So... focus on that.

Did that in the other thread... .Thanks for that recommendation!

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife called (yes I said called ,  ) earlier and asked me if I could help our son get our Xbox One working correctly (was having a Live issue) and I said, "Sure, not a problem.  I would love too"  So I talked him through it over the phone and got to talk to him and tell him I loved him.  That was a plus, and did something for him. 

[MissyM]

That is great, Maroon!  I wanted to tell you I went through something similar with my dBPDh.  He had shoved me and scratched me, and he then claimed I assaulted him.  Now that he is doing better, he said in therapy that he couldn't accept the things he had done because that would make him a terrible person and no one would be able to forgive him, least of all me.  This fed his denial and fantasy, even though he knew what the truth was.   He also said while we weren't really speaking and separated that when he would see me, that his anger and defenses would crumble and he would feel love for me.  So, maybe that is why form flier keeps saying to meet in person.  My dBPDh said seeing me in the flesh made him drop the negative fantasy he was having about me because I didn't fit that in person.   Anyway, just thought it was interesting that the advice Formflier is giving really matches what my dBPDh told me (even though it isn't what therapists said).

[formflier]

 

The in person thing has to do with my thoughts on what is a r/s.

Note:  Most will think me an extremist or and old fuddy duddy on this.

I don't have a facebook account... .people will describe online r/s... .I don't think there is such a thing

My life is much ... .much better once I got texting to just be about grocerly list items... .no more "text bombs".

Even speaking by phone... .not much of a r/s there.

In person is where it's at.  You can read emotions... get all the nuance of the conversation.

When you are trying to improve a r/s where one has BPD traits... .the ability to validate is huge.  Finding the right emotion to validate is best done in person.  Plus you can gauge reaction better. 

If you are doing some sympathy... empathy... .and you see some of your words having an impact... .you can double down.  Likelihood of detecting that via text is remote.

[MissyM]

And to be clear, he would paint me black black again when we were apart.   That back and forth was brutal!

[MaroonLiquid]

And to be clear, he would paint me black black again when we were apart.   That back and forth was brutal!

How long until that started changing?  

[MissyM]

It probably took about 5 months of separation (after he received his BPD diagnosis), we were both going to therapy at the time.  I was committed with therapy but he was touch and go.  This got him to the point of being willing to go to a new marital therapist.  Then all of the ugly truth of what he had been doing over a total of 6 months came out.  Only after that did we truly start working on our marriage, his mood was still not good until just recently but he changed antidepressants which help immensely.

[MaroonLiquid]

Update, so my daughters wanted to call my wife yesterday morning and tell them to have a great trip.  My wife talked to them for a bit on the way out of town and talked to me for a few.  I asked if our daughter got the birthday card I sent her and she said yes.  I told her to be safe and loved her.  She said ok., talk to you later.  I didn't expect anything in return as her family that she painted me black to were all riding in the same car (the kids, her mom, her sister and our daughter's friends).  Anyway, we'll see how things are when she returns.

[MaroonLiquid]

So far while my wife and kids have been on vacation, I have been really at peace and not focusing on the fact that I wasn't with them.  Trying not to get irritated that my daughter didn't call or text to say thank you for the card for her birthday before they left.  I know the kids are caught in the middle, but it still is aggravating that my wife didn't say, "You might want to call your dad and thank him."  Especially the fact that her biological father hasn't sent a card or called her in years nor wants to be a part of her life... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

[Grey Kitty]

... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

You cannot stop your wife from doing that. (Didn't somebody else post a thread: "How can I make them stop painting me black?"

Your actions will show the kids that you are different.

Remember they are caught in the middle if the nasty parental alienation games your wife is doing while she's painting you black.

Being younger... .and dependent on their mother, it may be a quite a journey for them to figure out how to resolve the conflict of reality here.

 Hang in there!

[MaroonLiquid]

... .I feel like she is making me out to be as bad as their sperm donor... .

You cannot stop your wife from doing that. (Didn't somebody else post a thread: "How can I make them stop painting me black?"

Your actions will show the kids that you are different.

Remember they are caught in the middle if the nasty parental alienation games your wife is doing while she's painting you black.

Being younger... .and dependent on their mother, it may be a quite a journey for them to figure out how to resolve the conflict of reality here.

 Hang in there!

I know I can't stop her.  Up until recently, I "had to know" why she kept doing it and now, I don't care because she has to be the one to answer for that seed she is sowing and be the one to make it right in the end.  I do worry about the kids though as they are caught in the middle.  It is affecting their ability to trust anyone and that is heartbreaking.  They may not be mine biologically, but they are mine and miss them deeply.  The alienation game is ridiculous.  I know it's about abandonment so they make them "trust them and cling to them" more so they don't lose them... .it's sad

[MaroonLiquid]

I am looking forward to my wife coming home, but not getting too excited as I don't know "who" she'll be when she returns.  We haven't spent any quality time together (not talking about sex, but more just "us" in 6 weeks.  Curious to see if she'll actually show up to our first couples T appointment next week... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Another thing, my kids want to see my wife as they haven't seen her either in 6 weeks... .How do I handle this with them.  I know she talked to them on the phone and told them she loved them (won't tell me that, but understand why).  They miss her too and ask about her and I have told her so... .

[Grey Kitty]

I do worry about the kids though as they are caught in the middle.  It is affecting their ability to trust anyone and that is heartbreaking.  They may not be mine biologically, but they are mine and miss them deeply.  The alienation game is ridiculous.  I know it's about abandonment so they make them "trust them and cling to them" more so they don't lose them... .it's sad

Another thing, my kids want to see my wife as they haven't seen her either in 6 weeks... .How do I handle this with them.  I know she talked to them on the phone and told them she loved them (won't tell me that, but understand why).  They miss her too and ask about her and I have told her so... .

I suggest you re-post these question on the Co-Parenting after the Split board.

Folks over there have been through this sort of crap a lot, and probably have better advice for you.

Keep posting here on "Staying" about your wife--we can support you here.

[MaroonLiquid]

How should I handle my wife coming home tomorrow?  Should I text her and say welcome home and hope you had a good time, or let her communicate with me?

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

How should I handle my wife coming home tomorrow?  Should I text her and say welcome home and hope you had a good time, or let her communicate with me?

What do you want?

Would you be happy with a brief pleasant exchange... .that ignores any of the real conflict you are having with her?

[MaroonLiquid]

How should I handle my wife coming home tomorrow?  Should I text her and say welcome home and hope you had a good time, or let her communicate with me?

What do you want?

Would you be happy with a brief pleasant exchange... .that ignores any of the real conflict you are having with her?

What do you mean?

[Grey Kitty]

Would you be happy with a brief pleasant exchange... .that ignores any of the real conflict you are having with her?

What do you mean?

You've been pushing her to talk about getting back together... .pushing her to compromise on the laptop... .and expressed a while ago that she would happily talk to you when you were supporting her financially, but if you wanted anything else, she would reject you and blow you off.

So if it went like:

YOU: "I hope you had a good vacation."

WIFE: "Thanks I did. Kids had a good time too."

(end of conversation)

How will you feel about it? Will you just feel hurt about what you aren't getting, or happy about a brief pleasant exchange with her?

[MaroonLiquid]

Would you be happy with a brief pleasant exchange... .that ignores any of the real conflict you are having with her?

What do you mean?

You've been pushing her to talk about getting back together... .pushing her to compromise on the laptop... .and expressed a while ago that she would happily talk to you when you were supporting her financially, but if you wanted anything else, she would reject you and blow you off.

So if it went like:

YOU: "I hope you had a good vacation."

WIFE: "Thanks I did. Kids had a good time too."

(end of conversation)

How will you feel about it? Will you just feel hurt about what you aren't getting, or happy about a brief pleasant exchange with her?

Great question... .Either way I just want her to know I'm here.  But I guess she already knows that.  I would feel fine if that's all it was, but a little disappointed also if that is all it was.  I guess I will keep the status quo and not seem "overjoyed" at her arrival

[MaroonLiquid]

One quick question, my wife's birthday is coming up in a little over a week.  Any questions on how to handle this?  I have always made her birthday a good thing and special because she was one of 5 kids who grew up with just necessities and her ex-husband never did anything for her.  One birthday he got her a fake flower... .I know this first hand because I was there.  I'm just lost on this because of the situation.  Thought about flowers and inviting her to dinner... .What do y'all think?  Counseling is the day before her birthday, just realized that.  Oh, well... .

[formflier]

 

I would hold off on deciding this until counseling... .don't pre judge what she will say or do.

Also wouldn't want her to misinterpret any actions about an event that is after counseling... .by something you did before counseling... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I would hold off on deciding this until counseling... .don't pre judge what she will say or do.

Also wouldn't want her to misinterpret any actions about an event that is after counseling... .by something you did before counseling... .

What do you mean?  Are you saying that it could be misconstrued?  Shouldn't I offer to let her know that it is important to me?

[MaroonLiquid]

So she has not contacted me thus far today but posted to facebook about fatherless "boys" (I'm sure she is talking about herself) don't trust what you say, they trust what you do... .

[formflier]

What do you mean?  Are you saying that it could be misconstrued?  Shouldn't I offer to let her know that it is important to me?

My recommendation is that you wait until after the counseling... .to wish her a happy birthday... or bring it up at all.

Yes... .about guaranteed to be miscronstrued... .pwBPD do that. 

You would mean to just wish her happy birthday... .and she could think you are "smothering" her... .or who knows what...

[formflier]

So she has not contacted me thus far today but posted to facebook about fatherless "boys" (I'm sure she is talking about herself) don't trust what you say, they trust what you do... .

Energy put into figuring out what the facebook posts of a pwBPD traits "mean"... or what they are talking about... is most likely wasted energy.

Probably a good thing to remain aware of... .but I would focus much on it... .or think much about it

[MaroonLiquid]

     So I woke up this morning and realized how peaceful and blessed I am.  Being in a separate home the last four months that protects me from the daily BPD drama, confusion, fear, anger, push/pull has helped me so much.  I realize how far I've come with this and proud for how strong I'm becoming.  I have done things in the last few months I never did before because I truly WANT AND DESIRE to change.  :)o I miss my wife and kids?  Yes, immensely.  :)o I miss the push/pull, drama, her picking fights out of thin air and everything being her way?  No.  I read "Walking on Eggshells" two days ago and boy it was eye opening.  A God-send.  I read it in one afternoon!  Now I'm going to start the workbook.   Reading the parts about distortion campaigns and "lovingly detaching" has helped me tremendously.  

    I have lovingly detached with the realization that it's not abandonment because when she texts, calls or wants to see me, I'm here.  I realize that I am protecting the love I have for my wife and at the same time, not feeding the illness.  I need to hold and KEEP my boundaries for both of us and not let her "distortions campaigns" affect me or react to them.  I haven't really this whole time (except when I did call her mom at the beginning of all this and she told me she wouldn't get involved), but I certainly won't feed and make myself look like the crazy and unhealthy one.  If people want the truth, they will get both sides and make that decision for themselves.  I know enough as a minister of the Gospel that most people have a hard time with the truth or getting both sides because then it makes them responsible.  

    I asked her several times in the last 5-1/2 years if she knew how much I loved her, and she always gave me a response I thought was strange.  She would say, "I think so, but I guess I don't."  I realize now what she means.  She means I love her more than she can understand.  It helps to know that she can't understand anyone can love her that way because she doesn't feel lovable.  God has started to give me true empathy for her, but will protect myself and not be a doormat for abuse.   I also realize a couple of other things since reading the book that have helped me.  It is actually freeing for me to see things from my wife's point of view.  She lives everyday in a fortress of fear and loneliness and it's heartbreaking.  I USED to live where my decisions where made by fear/survival because I wasn't nurtured the right way growing up.  It's freeing not to live that way anymore.  I pray that she desires to live that way to.  I know I can only change myself and will continue with God's help to strengthen the weak parts of me and my character.  I also know she sees the change as she has told me several times, and praying that it ignites a desire in her to change with me.  If she decides differently, then I know now I will be more than OK.  She is truly lovable and I'm glad that God has put me in her life.  I believe in her.  Sorry for the long post, but clarity hit me this morning.

[Grey Kitty]

   

This is a joyful post to read!

Congratulations.

I remember when I hit that clarity--knowing that I loved my wife. Knowing that I wasn't helping either of us if I let her abuse me. Knowing that allowing abuse isn't love.

[MaroonLiquid]

 

This is a joyful post to read!

Congratulations.

I remember when I hit that clarity--knowing that I loved my wife. Knowing that I wasn't helping either of us if I let her abuse me. Knowing that allowing abuse isn't love.

My wife texted me earlier to ask if my kids were trick or treating and I responded they were but not with me as I let them go with some friends. She just said, "I thought they were with you (it's my weekend with my kids)."  I guess she was opening up contact since I haven't contacted her since she has been home from vacation yesterday.  Strange... .Almost like she's "fishing" to see what I'm up to.  Told her what I was doing (helping my mom) as I'm not going to play games. 

[sadeyes]

Good for you!

Sounds like you're making some great strides!

[MaroonLiquid]

Difficult text exchange with my wife today.  She asked me about bills again.  I told her to meet and discuss.  She said we can discuss it in text.  I said I wouldn't and then she dysregulated.  Brought up something from 5 years ago, told me I wasn't capable of loving anyone because I don't understand the concept and that I was always "looking for the next big thing".  Tried to SET and validate the fear that I was moving on.  Also told her we would love to see her when they're ready and she responded that they won't be seeing us ever again.  I told her that I was sorry she felt that way.  It didn't work.  I realized she was baiting me into discussing the bills on text when it was too late.  She wanted me to pay her car note (ummmm, no, and she just got off a cruise), and held my ground that she asked for the separation, I didn't and she is responsible for her bills.  Mentioned that I would see her at marriage counseling on Friday and she said that she had to work and that she was saving her time for a "more important appointment".  Threat for divorce maybe?  I just said ok have a good day.  I'm irritated with myself that I rewarded her bad behavior again by giving in to texting.  She just wanted an outlet because she is having financial problems. I still never lost my cool or said anything hateful.  I was still loving in my approach.  Just hate that I feel like right now nothing I do is right.

[MaroonLiquid]

So today, doing my best not to feel down after yesterday.  I hate being the brunt of my wife's dysregulations.  Enduring this at times is tough!

[formflier]

I hate being the brunt of my wife's dysregulations.  Enduring this at times is tough!

So... .take the example of yesterday... and bearing the brunt of her dysregulation.  Who controlled whether or not your bore the brunt yesterday?

[Grey Kitty]

I woke up this morning and realized how peaceful and blessed I am.  Being in a separate home the last four months that protects me from the daily BPD drama, confusion, fear, anger, push/pull has helped me so much.  I realize how far I've come with this and proud for how strong I'm becoming.

Difficult text exchange with my wife today... .she dysregulated... .I still never lost my cool... .hate that I feel like right now nothing I do is right.

today, doing my best not to feel down after yesterday.  I hate being the brunt of my wife's dysregulations.

Wow. Life sure is an amazing rollercoaster for you, looking at three successive days like this. I've also got to say that progress is real, even when it comes in fits and starts, with occasional setbacks.

Be gentle with yourself.

 GK

[MaroonLiquid]

I hate being the brunt of my wife's dysregulations.  Enduring this at times is tough!

So... .take the example of yesterday... and bearing the brunt of her dysregulation.  Who controlled whether or not your bore the brunt yesterday?

I know I control that.  I know she is struggling and having a difficult time with me not communicating with her much.  I'm truly doing my best to change things.  Had to console my kids last night.  They really miss my wife and the kids.  They balled for like thirty minutes.

Thanks GK... .Hard to see progress when she seems to be getting worse.  But know sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.

[Grey Kitty]

Had to console my kids last night.  They really miss my wife and the kids.  They balled for like thirty minutes.

That's heartbreaking. 

Thanks GK... .Hard to see progress when she seems to be getting worse.  But know sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.

If your definition of "it gets better" requires your wife to improve, you are in a very tough spot!

Focus on what YOU can do that will make it better (for you and your kids).

 GK

[MaroonLiquid]

Had to console my kids last night.  They really miss my wife and the kids.  They balled for like thirty minutes.

That's heartbreaking. 

Thanks GK... .Hard to see progress when she seems to be getting worse.  But know sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.

If your definition of "it gets better" requires your wife to improve, you are in a very tough spot!

Focus on what YOU can do that will make it better (for you and your kids).

 GK

It doesn't require my wife to do anything.  I know that all I can focus on is myself and my children.  It is just hard to watch my kids heart break, be caught in the middle and have to be the one to always clean up her mess the last 4 months.  My heart breaks because theirs is.  I'm used to this, but still miss my wife so much. 

[formflier]

 

What got figured out at your last IC.  Did you guys comes up with a plan for you and the current situation?

[formflier]

 I know she is struggling and having a difficult time with me not communicating with her much.  

How do you know this? 

I'm afraid this is an incorrect assumption. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I would assume I guess.  Why do you think she doesn't?  I guess I put too much stock in what we had... .I know when I don't talk to her for a while she finds some lame excuse to make contact... .

[formflier]

I would assume I guess.  Why do you think she doesn't?  I guess I put too much stock in what we had... .I know when I don't talk to her for a while she finds some lame excuse to make contact... .

For starters... .we don't know.  We're making our best guess.

I think she is having trouble dealing with the BPD traits that she has... .that is the issue.  Limited contact with you may be just one of those traits. 

So... .I would suggest that the "prescription" that we write to hopefully make better what she is dealing with ... .what her "real" problem is... .is appropriate for what the real problem is.

If you think that her problem is dealing with LC or NC from you... .then some of your actions make sense... .to reach out to her... to engage in longer conversations... .etc etc.

If you think her problem is BPD traits in her life... then I suggest that... .as much as possible... .you write a prescription for your actions towards her... .that helps that as much as possible.

I think those two prescriptions are very different... .

How do you think they could be different?

[MaroonLiquid]

I would assume I guess.  Why do you think she doesn't?  I guess I put too much stock in what we had... .I know when I don't talk to her for a while she finds some lame excuse to make contact... .

For starters... .we don't know.  We're making our best guess.

I think she is having trouble dealing with the BPD traits that she has... .that is the issue.  Limited contact with you may be just one of those traits.  

So... .I would suggest that the "prescription" that we write to hopefully make better what she is dealing with ... .what her "real" problem is... .is appropriate for what the real problem is.

If you think that her problem is dealing with LC or NC from you... .then some of your actions make sense... .to reach out to her... to engage in longer conversations... .etc etc.

If you think her problem is BPD traits in her life... then I suggest that... .as much as possible... .you write a prescription for your actions towards her... .that helps that as much as possible.

I think those two prescriptions are very different... .

How do you think they could be different?

I'm not too sure.  I guess I thought her "contact" issue was because of the BPD.  I mean she won't have any contact outside of text and email with me, so maybe you're right and that's why.  I guess this is why I'm at such a loss.  She expects me to pay her bills while she wants to be separated, and I'm not standing for it.  Just don't know what to do... .What is the other prescription for dealing with "BPD traits"?

[Grey Kitty]

She expects me to pay her bills while she wants to be separated, and I'm not standing for it.

If you are unwilling to support her while separated, you don't have to "Not stand for it." All you have to do is not write the check; no need to even get angry about it. Especially since (if I remember correctly) you separated your finances and do not have any outstanding legal issues regarding it... .so she has no way to force you to pay.

Do you have other feelings about her or what she's doing that are getting wrapped up in this for you?

[MaroonLiquid]

She expects me to pay her bills while she wants to be separated, and I'm not standing for it.

If you are unwilling to support her while separated, you don't have to "Not stand for it." All you have to do is not write the check; no need to even get angry about it. Especially since (if I remember correctly) you separated your finances and do not have any outstanding legal issues regarding it... .so she has no way to force you to pay.

Do you have other feelings about her or what she's doing that are getting wrapped up in this for you?

Right, and if I'm not paying why bring them up?  She knows that by now but continues to bring up "bills" because she is short on money and for what seems like starting a fight to make me look bad, I guess... .It irritates and hurts me because she would rather start a fight than talk about what's important, our family and marriage... .

[Grey Kitty]

Right, and if I'm not paying why bring them up?  She knows that by now but continues to bring up "bills" because she is short on money and for what seems like starting a fight to make me look bad, I guess... .It irritates and hurts me because she would rather start a fight than talk about what's important, our family and marriage... .

Uhm... .it takes two to fight.

All she can do is provoke you. It isn't a fight until you "bite" on it.

Your chances of reconciling with her will go up if you respond in ways that don't drive your resentment up... .and possibly even make her feel better about you.

Remember--she is the one with mental illness. She is not capable of leading your r/s into more healthy patterns. If you can't lead on this, it isn't going to happen.

[MaroonLiquid]

Right, and if I'm not paying why bring them up?  She knows that by now but continues to bring up "bills" because she is short on money and for what seems like starting a fight to make me look bad, I guess... .It irritates and hurts me because she would rather start a fight than talk about what's important, our family and marriage... .

Uhm... .it takes two to fight.

All she can do is provoke you. It isn't a fight until you "bite" on it.

Your chances of reconciling with her will go up if you respond in ways that don't drive your resentment up... .and possibly even make her feel better about you.

Remember--she is the one with mental illness. She is not capable of leading your r/s into more healthy patterns. If you can't lead on this, it isn't going to happen.

How am I responding in ways that drive my resentment up?  I don't show her the resentment do I?  So tell me what I'm doing wrong... .This is where I start to feel like a failure.  It feels like I can't respond correctly no matter how I respond.  I tell her I won't drop something off at her doorstep, and she meets with me only to pick it up and won't sit down to have lunch with me.  I tell her that I won't discuss it on text and she won't meet with me.  I tell her I'm not paying her bills and I'm still the a$$hole and she says that "they will never see us again".  It seems that no matter what I do, I can't gain control of this and the ball is always in her court... .She still has my laptop for God's sake... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Another thing, when I'm doing stuff without her, it seems to drive her crazy.  Friday she texted me, and Saturday I was at a birthday party with my kids and posted a picture to Facebook and that's when she started texting me about bills and dysregulating.  Forgot to mention that part of when she started texting.

[Grey Kitty]

  You asked for help. I'm going to be tough and give it to you the best I can. I'll be taking this apart bit by bit to show you your part of things here the best I can. Hang on, this might be a ride!

How am I responding in ways that drive my resentment up?

Your resentment is your feeling. I don't know exactly where it comes from, and even if I did, it wouldn't help you for me to be telling you about it. 

Ask yourself some questions: What am I feeling about her? Think about the last few interactions, and what you were feeling immediately after you got a text or had a conversation.

Give yourself some time to just feel these things, you don't have to DO anything at all.

You may answer your own question about what you are doing that is driving up your resentment.

I don't show her the resentment do I? 

I'm not watching your interactions, so I don't know.

pwBPD are usually hypersensitive to the emotions of others around them. If you are feeling a tenth of an ounce of resentment while you are talking to her, she will probably notice... .and react.

So tell me what I'm doing wrong... .This is where I start to feel like a failure.  It feels like I can't respond correctly no matter how I respond. 

It is really tough to do this well. Perhaps the first problem is to define "respond correctly."

If your definition includes the behavior you want from her, you will never get it "right"

If your goal is to reconcile with her, offer her positive, validating interactions with you. Don't validate the invalid. Don't be a human punching bag for emotional abuse. You will still need your boundaries.

I tell her I won't drop something off at her doorstep, and she meets with me only to pick it up and won't sit down to have lunch with me. 

You were trying to force her to spend time with you. She saw that as controlling and manipulative, and didn't react well.

If you offer something, offer it as a genuine gift, without attaching strings. If you are feeling too pissy to do this, that's OK. Save the "gift" for later when you can give it freely.

I tell her that I won't discuss it on text and she won't meet with me.

It is your right to not discuss something on text. There are lots of good reasons for that; I'm not second guessing that.

You have no right, no ability, and no good reason to force her to discuss something in your way.

If she reacts by not discussing it at all, or cutting communications for a week, that is her choice, and you cannot stop her... .and absolutely shouldn't try.

I tell her I'm not paying her bills and I'm still the a$$hole and she says that "they will never see us again".

You have every right to tell her what you are going to do with your money.

She has every right to call you any names you stick around and listen to.

She doesn't have to be correct. She doesn't even have to be truthful.

And you don't have to listen to her, or believe her.

It seems that no matter what I do, I can't gain control of this and the ball is always in her court... .

That is true. Here's the kicker:

When you are trying to control her, you are putting the ball in her court, setting her up to smash it right down your throat.

If you don't like how that plays out, stop doing your part of it.

She still has my laptop for God's sake... .

This sounds like the resentment you were asking about earlier.

[Grey Kitty]

Another thing, when I'm doing stuff without her, it seems to drive her crazy.  Friday she texted me, and Saturday I was at a birthday party with my kids and posted a picture to Facebook and that's when she started texting me about bills and dysregulating.  Forgot to mention that part of when she started texting.

It is her right to go crazy when you do something without her. You can't stop that.

It is your choice what to do about it if and when she does.

The healthy thing is to disengage from her, and stick to living your life in a way that works for you.

You know how to live better. Don't let her stop you. And don't try to convince her that it is the right thing for you to do. Her opinion on it doesn't matter (to you).

[MaroonLiquid]

Ok... .Here is how I am feeling at times... .

1.  I'm very hurt that she doesn't seem to want to spend time together with me.

2.  I'm hurt that she doesn't care more about our relationship than this.

3.  I'm hurt that she doesn't care more about my kids who love her and want to see her and want to see their brothers and sisters.  Seeing them hurt over this this weekend bothered me even though I stayed strong and didn't show it. 

4.  I'm hurt that she has lied on me to other people.

5.  I'm hurt that I haven't seen her kids who called me dad.

6.  I'm tired of everything being about her.

7.  I'm hurt that she has made me drop classes this semester by keeping my laptop when she was such a huge factor in helping me have the courage to go back to school.

8.  I'm tired of all her problems being my fault.

[MaroonLiquid]

I am still confused on my wife's birthday Saturday.  Formflier said wait to see how counseling goes, but since she has said she isn't going to counseling, what should I do.  I do want to get her some flowers.  No strings attached, but I love her and want her to know that.  Don't want to be a doormat either or reward bad behavior.

[MaroonLiquid]

How do I get her to spend time with me without her feeling "controlled or manipulated"?

[Grey Kitty]

How do I get her to spend time with me without her feeling "controlled or manipulated"?

Tough answer: You don't.

She decides that she wants to spend time with you. Or she doesn't. 100% up to her.

HOWEVER, if you stop trying to control and manipulate her, she is more likely to want to spend time with you. Eventually.

Doing it this way is the long game, and there is no guarantee of success.

Accepting this is heartbreaking.

Back to being blunt: How's the other method you've been using working for you?

I do want to get her some flowers.  No strings attached, but I love her and want her to know that.

Man, do what feels right to you. Hope for a good reception. Be prepared for a raging dysregulation instead. Or silence. Follow your heart.

[MaroonLiquid]

How do I get her to spend time with me without her feeling "controlled or manipulated"?

Tough answer: You don't.

She decides that she wants to spend time with you. Or she doesn't. 100% up to her.

HOWEVER, if you stop trying to control and manipulate her, she is more likely to want to spend time with you. Eventually.

Doing it this way is the long game, and there is no guarantee of success.

Accepting this is heartbreaking.

Back to being blunt: How's the other method you've been using working for you?

I do want to get her some flowers.  No strings attached, but I love her and want her to know that.

Man, do what feels right to you. Hope for a good reception. Be prepared for a raging dysregulation instead. Or silence. Follow your heart.

The other method hasn't worked.  Should I apologize for "trying to control her?"  Why would a gift on her birthday cause her to dysregulate when it is something she loves... .The woman I fell in love with would have never refused to see me.  This is what breaks my heart.

[Grey Kitty]

Should I apologize for "trying to control her?"  

How has apologizing worked for you before?

Yes, that was a rhetorical question. Seriously, she won't believe your words if they don't match her feelings.

Let her see your actions and draw her own conclusions.

Why would a gift on her birthday cause her to dysregulate when it is something she loves... .

Birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays are a classic time for a pwBPD to dysregulate. I can't uunderstand that mindset quite well enough to explain why... .go and re-read hurthusband's story of his wife's birthday if you haven't recently.

The woman I fell in love with would have never refused to see me.  This is what breaks my heart.

That statement doesn't match reality. The woman you fell in love with is doing exactly that, right now.

   And it is heartbreaking.

Pretending it isn't happening won't heal your heart.

[MaroonLiquid]

Should I apologize for "trying to control her?"  

How has apologizing worked for you before?

Yes, that was a rhetorical question. Seriously, she won't believe your words if they don't match her feelings.

Let her see your actions and draw her own conclusions.

Why would a gift on her birthday cause her to dysregulate when it is something she loves... .

Birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays are a classic time for a pwBPD to dysregulate. I can't uunderstand that mindset quite well enough to explain why... .go and re-read hurthusband's story of his wife's birthday if you haven't recently.

The woman I fell in love with would have never refused to see me.  This is what breaks my heart.

That statement doesn't match reality. The woman you fell in love with is doing exactly that, right now.

   And it is heartbreaking.

Pretending it isn't happening won't heal your heart.

Ouch!... .Doses of reality are needed, but hurt regardless... .

[Grey Kitty]

Ouch!... .Doses of reality are needed, but hurt regardless... .

Yeah. Tell me about it!

(Don't know if you've read my threads about infidelity... .I've gotten over the RDA of reality from my wife already.)

 I wish I could give you a better reality than the one you've got.

[formflier]

 

Been out for a bit.

Will try to answer more later.

Don't apologize.

Stop telling her what you won't do... .stay positive.

I'm happy to meet so we can discuss bills properly. 

Yes it is still controlling... but comes across less so.  Ultimately... .you are only controlling your actions... .she will control her actions... and she will feel the way she feels.

Go to counseling... .she may change her mind many times... .and may or may not show up.

How did counseling get brought up before... .when she told you she wasn't going?

[MaroonLiquid]

Been out for a bit.

Will try to answer more later.

Don't apologize.

Stop telling her what you won't do... .stay positive.

I'm happy to meet so we can discuss bills properly.  

Yes it is still controlling... but comes across less so.  Ultimately... .you are only controlling your actions... .she will control her actions... and she will feel the way she feels.

Go to counseling... .she may change her mind many times... .and may or may not show up.

How did counseling get brought up before... .when she told you she wasn't going?

Her dysregulation was Saturday when I was at a birthday party for my friend's daughter.  She texted me not minutes after me posting a picture and video.  I told her that I would see her in counseling at the end of our texting session and that the address was on the "family calendar" that we share.  She unsubscribed from it as soon as I said that.  

[waverider]

This topic has now been locked as it has reached its page limit in accordance with board policy.

Thank you everyone for your participation.

If there are any ongoing aspects you wish to discuss further feel free to open a new topic

Thanks for your understanding

Waverider