Hard Day Cont'd 7...

[Grey Kitty]

Maroon, you are doing things soo much better now, and I think you know it. 

You are also missing a couple things, and I'm going to be direct about it.

First off: Spending 16 hours in a car with her sounds like a terrible idea. It is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one of you dysregulated! Your concerns were valid, but probably not nearly as strong as they should have been! (Some of the worst and most destructive fights I have had with my wife were on long drives together.)

If she drops that plan you just dodged a possible marriage-ending bullet. The bullet is still in the air. Don't try to jump back in front of it!

Second, in this 'argument', she is trying to do the best thing she can, and YOU are still working against it!

She's getting triggered and upset about something relating to the car issues, or the 16 hour trip.

She doesn't have the skill to resolve this stuff well by talking to you about it.

I bet she knows that old go-to tool for this is to rage at you and make it all your fault.

She's trying NOT to do that. Help her out!

Yes, she will give you some kinda bogus/messed up reasons for why she's doing what she's doing. She's not very self-aware about this kind of stuff. Just let her 'reasons' go, and help her stick with more constructive actions! It is too easy for any follow-up inquiry on your part to be invalidating.

In this case, stop applying ANY pressure for her to talk about something difficult until she decides she's ready for it! Even when she does spool down, it will be enough of a challenge for the two of you to discuss/resolve things well.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, you are doing things soo much better now, and I think you know it. 

You are also missing a couple things, and I'm going to be direct about it.

First off: Spending 16 hours in a car with her sounds like a terrible idea. It is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one of you dysregulated! Your concerns were valid, but probably not nearly as strong as they should have been! (Some of the worst and most destructive fights I have had with my wife were on long drives together.)

If she drops that plan you just dodged a possible marriage-ending bullet. The bullet is still in the air. Don't try to jump back in front of it!

Second, in this 'argument', she is trying to do the best thing she can, and YOU are still working against it!

She's getting triggered and upset about something relating to the car issues, or the 16 hour trip.

She doesn't have the skill to resolve this stuff well by talking to you about it.

I bet she knows that old go-to tool for this is to rage at you and make it all your fault.

She's trying NOT to do that. Help her out!

Yes, she will give you some kinda bogus/messed up reasons for why she's doing what she's doing. She's not very self-aware about this kind of stuff. Just let her 'reasons' go, and help her stick with more constructive actions! It is too easy for any follow-up inquiry on your part to be invalidating.

In this case, stop applying ANY pressure for her to talk about something difficult until she decides she's ready for it! Even when she does spool down, it will be enough of a challenge for the two of you to discuss/resolve things well.

Thanks, Grey.  You're right as far as her reverting to old behavior because when I first texted her this morning I told her to have a good day and she said, "You too."  So that is positive.  I didn't think about that regarding the trip.  I was just trying to be thoughtful.  I know she is dreading it as she told me that and I validated it.  That's a big thing to her right now.  Truthfully, I think she regrets offering to do it.     The car situation is difficult too. 

[Grey Kitty]

I was just trying to be thoughtful.  I know she is dreading it as she told me that and I validated it.  That's a big thing to her right now.  Truthfully, I think she regrets offering to do it.     The car situation is difficult too. 

You were, acting with good intentions... .and old habits of trying to rescue. It is HARD to break them.

And yes, it really is a difficult situation for her, and there is lots to validate in there. 

However the whole point you are trying to get to is to have her take responsibility for her own car, without you being on the hook financially for it... .and for you to have a car that she doesn't have rights to.

I recommend you make it your job NOT to 'offer' to rescue her. If she asks for your help, be as generous as you feel you can/should. But keep your unsolicited offers to validation for a while!

[MaroonLiquid]

I was just trying to be thoughtful.  I know she is dreading it as she told me that and I validated it.  That's a big thing to her right now.  Truthfully, I think she regrets offering to do it.     The car situation is difficult too. 

You were, acting with good intentions... .and old habits of trying to rescue. It is HARD to break them.

And yes, it really is a difficult situation for her, and there is lots to validate in there. 

However the whole point you are trying to get to is to have her take responsibility for her own car, without you being on the hook financially for it... .and for you to have a car that she doesn't have rights to.

I recommend you make it your job NOT to 'offer' to rescue her. If she asks for your help, be as generous as you feel you can/should. But keep your unsolicited offers to validation for a while!

So, I'm still getting the "short answer" silent treatment as of this morning.  I texted her to say good morning and asked how she was feeling.  I also told her that I needed to stop by and get the ladder I borrowed from a friend and she responded, "It's right where you left it."  It's funny, we made a lot of progress the last few days and she told me that she sees that I'm in a different place as far as listening to her and how she is feeling and validating that.  It is sad that when she is struggling with something that on the surface she feels can't share that with me or she may feel I wouldn't understand.  Maybe she thinks I would think bad of her or something.  I know it isn't necessarily about me because she had no problem telling me this last week what I did that affected her and we worked through it through my listening and validation.  I am happy that she didn't full on dysregulate.  That is a step forward.  I am handling things much better.  The other night when I was over at my wife's house, our DD16 who has always been close to me came up and hugged me right before she went to bed.  It was completely unsolicited and melted me.  I've made sure not to make the kids feel uncomfortable or try and push them to show affection.  One thing I didn't think about that may be bothering my wife is that when I've been over there with her mom and the kids, I have been calm, helpful and loving.  She may be feeling ashamed again after all she has said to her mom and I am looking like the complete opposite.  Again, I'm not trying to make sense of all this or care about what her family thinks, but it helps me to talk about it as I am a very analytical person.  It also helps me to realize it isn't about me.

[Grey Kitty]

The other night when I was over at my wife's house, our DD16 who has always been close to me came up and hugged me right before she went to bed.  It was completely unsolicited and melted me. 

 Awwwwww.

BTW, If you have any doubt, yes you did earn that one. Your kids notice that you are keeping things on your side of the emotional fence clean.

Actually, your wife does too, she just cannot express it as well. As you said, she is responding to your changes.

[MaroonLiquid]

The other night when I was over at my wife's house, our DD16 who has always been close to me came up and hugged me right before she went to bed.  It was completely unsolicited and melted me. 

 Awwwwww.

BTW, If you have any doubt, yes you did earn that one. Your kids notice that you are keeping things on your side of the emotional fence clean.

Actually, your wife does too, she just cannot express it as well. As you said, she is responding to your changes.

Thanks.  I needed that actually.  Not just for validation, but because I needed to know that things aren't beyond repair with them.  I'm almost crying as I type this.  That has been on my mind for months and in that one moment, it all became worth it.  She hugged her mom and told her she loved her, and I just figured she would go to her room, but instead, came over, leaned down and grabbed me tight.  I said, "good night, I love you" and she said I love you too.  After the last five months, again, it made it all worth it as I have missed them.  I think that touched my wife too even though we didn't talk about it.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm almost crying as I type this.

I'm almost crying as I read it!

OK. Scratch the 'almost'.

One of the best friends and supporters I have coined a phrase for these moments. She calls them Tears of Divine Intervention.

Not the same as tears of sadness at all.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm almost crying as I type this.

I'm almost crying as I read it!

OK. Scratch the 'almost'.

One of the best friends and supporters I have coined a phrase for these moments. She calls them Tears of Divine Intervention.

Not the same as tears of sadness at all.

So true.  They are definitely good tears!

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm feeling nervous again.  I know that she is responding to my changes and I'm grateful for that.  At the same time, why does her silent treatment feel like a step back again?  I know that she didn't full on dysregulate, and that's awesome, and not quite a big a step back as in the past!  I'm still irritated that we can have so many productive conversations that she commented about how she appreciated how I was listening and validating her.  She even thanked me for taking feedback so well to something that upset her.  But now this.  So what is different now?  I know it probably isn't about me.  When I texted her earlier, I said that I knew she had a lot going on with work and didn't want to keep her from getting some things done, but asked if her and her mom wanted to go to lunch and she responded with, "No".  I said that I understood and would be by to get a ladder we borrowed from a friend so that I could return it.  She said she would leave the garage door open and I could just go in and get it and to thank our friend for her.  When I got there (there about five minutes total), even knowing I was there (she works from home, the dogs barked to see me, she was talking to her mom and her office is right next to the driveway), never came out to say hello.  Instead she stayed in her "fortress" and hid.  That is strange to me.  Maybe it is the only way she can deal with her shame and stuff.  I don't get that part of BPD, but whatever.  I left as soon as I got it in the car.  It just brought up negativity in me.  Sorry.  Venting.

[formflier]

 I know it probably isn't about me.  

I would switch your thinking... .

Make her, yourself... .and everyone else convince you it is about you... .before you even considering that it is about you.

As opposed to "probably" not about me.

It's not... .trust me... .

[Grey Kitty]

Yup. Progress is slow, and two steps forward, one step back.

And regarding silent treatment... .

Staying away from you when she's so upset that she would say something hurtful and regret it isn't the silent treatment. It is being as kind as she can be. Like taking a time out.

Refusing to acknowledge you, speak to you, etc. as a way to hurt you or punish you is the silent treatment.

Sometimes it is very clear which you are getting. Other times it isn't obvious which it is.

Either way, it isn't really about you, and if you can avoid taking it personally you will cope better.

Hang in there! You are doing great!

 GK

[MaroonLiquid]

Yup. Progress is slow, and two steps forward, one step back.

And regarding silent treatment... .

Staying away from you when she's so upset that she would say something hurtful and regret it isn't the silent treatment. It is being as kind as she can be. Like taking a time out.

Refusing to acknowledge you, speak to you, etc. as a way to hurt you or punish you is the silent treatment.

Sometimes it is very clear which you are getting. Other times it isn't obvious which it is.

Either way, it isn't really about you, and if you can avoid taking it personally you will cope better.

Hang in there! You are doing great!

 GK

It's hard when we kissed, were affectionate, and she told me she loves me to now, not talking since yesterday morning and posts to Facebook a meme that says, "God's going to put you on somebody's mind who's in a position to restore what you lost."  My first thought was that maybe God would restore what she lost if she would return what she stole.   .  I'll be honest, I still struggle with not taking this stuff to heart at times.  Especially after the progress with our daughter the other night.  I guess I don't see the difference between "short" answers and the silent treatment.  We haven't spoken since yesterday.

[downwhim]

She wants to engage you and keep you in the whirlwind. I say don't respond. You will get no where... .N/C for now... .

[Grey Kitty]

True enough that. Short answers and silent treatment are both ways to reject you, if that is what she feels the need to do.

I think you already know that nothing good will come from engaging in that sort of stuff shared on facebook as if it is aimed straight at you.

Which, even if it is, still isn't really about you--it is about her mood and her disorder.

 

[formflier]

 

I want to spike Grey Kitty's football... .


IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU... .

Just move along... .

[MaroonLiquid]

True enough that. Short answers and silent treatment are both ways to reject you, if that is what she feels the need to do.

I am doing well for the most part, and trying to not be involved in her unhealthiness.  I'm a lot better than I used to be.  Feeling a little uneasy and frustrated today since we haven't spoken since Friday.  I want to text her but probably won't.  I'm not giving in to her and the push/pull cycle she goes through and the control it brings.  I feel we made a lot of progress last week and yet can't move forward because she can't see the forest for the trees.  Again, I am looking at the positive that there wasn't some HUGE dysregulation that led to this and believing that she is just being as nice as she can be (GK's comments on her behavior). 

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a particular tool I used with the silent treatment while living together. At the distance you have, it is harder to accomplish, but the attitude behind it may help you.

This sort of rejection starts out with her being ANGRY about something and dysregulated. At that time, safe distance is a blessing, whichever of us initiates it.

The next 'phase' is one where she's staying away out of either inertia, habit, or some sort of lingering grudge. It is quite a bit softer than the first phase. She can still get 'stuck' in it for a long time.

At this point, I have to carefully check my own feelings. After a while, anger or hurt at the initial rejection starts to fade, and I often find some compassion for her--she is obviously miserable. Finding this compassion and acting on it is the key for me.

What I try to do is simply take an opportunity to give her a friendly 'touch'. Something like offering to make and bring her a cup of tea or a snack. A way of showing her that I'm open to her coming back and will welcome her... .without putting pressure on her to apologize, or discuss some sort of contentious issue with me. It is a small, friendly offer, with no expectations or strings attached.

Sometimes it is accepted. Sometimes it is rejected. I'm prepared for either, and won't take it personally. Often when it is accepted, it is like the ice all thaws instantly.

If it is rejected, I may make a similar offer again in a few hours or the next morning. The key for me is that I don't do this if I'm not feeling the compassion and love, and willing to be rebuffed without taking it personally. I don't do this as an obligation--that feeling would taint it emotionally, and she would be sensitive enough to see this and react badly.

The important part is packaging it up as a small loving touch, complete in itself, with no expectations or strings attached. I know that it is much harder to package up in a text message. When I do it, the non-verbal part is probably bigger than my words or the cup of tea.

[formflier]

At this point, I have to carefully check my own feelings. 

This is key. I should have kept my mouth shut yesterday... .but I made a choice to "enter the fray".  And... .it eventually all turn out ok... .but I knowlingly violated that little voice that said... .you are not ready... .and your heart is not pure.

So... .yesterday morning she was grumbling and b___ing while moving from room to room.  I was in shower... and she comes in... .I don't even know what she is b___ing about... but it's obviously towards me... .and leaving was not the most convenient option.

So... .I tried to deflect... .she made a crack about being tired of being treated like a child.  (I held my tongue)... .but asked for help understanding... .as I continued to shower. 

So... she rattled off a series of "conclusions" that pissed her off... .again... her thoughts... on my thoughts... (which i don't have) made her angry.  So... .she says... well... ."THEN SCREW YOU!".

With an impish grin... .I turn off the shower... whip open the shower curtain... .and exclaim... ."well... .I'm nice and clean... and I think we have time before church if you want to have sex right now... ."  She stares at me a bit slack jawed... .but with fire in her eyes.  I attempted (back to part about checking my heart) to act like I didn't understand... .but I was actually about to laugh... ."Ohhh... .were you not asking to have sex?  Help me understand what you were trying to communicate... ?."  is something along the lines of what I said.

This was the equivalent of pouring gas on fire... .but... .at the time... .I didn't care... .and was actually quite proud of myself...

She picked up that I was making fun of her (I'm guessing what she picked up)... .and I'm sure it was invalidating... and not supportive.

Every once in a while... .it feels good to let off a good retort... .and not follow the rules. 

It helps me remember that I have made choices... .and I have the choice to choose to do something else. 

I also knew... .that this would most likely make it worse... in the short run... .AND IT DID.

After church... .she acted like nothing ever happened.  We had a great rest of the day... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So I texted her and said, "Good morning honey.  I wanted to check on you.  Anything you need?"  

No response... .Oh well.  Seems like the same old crap... .different day... .

[MaroonLiquid]

double post... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So I texted her and said, "Good morning honey.  I wanted to check on you.  Anything you need?"  

No response... .Oh well.  Even though I believe differently this time, I tend to go back to "same old crap, different day" from her at times... .It's frustrating as you know what when she makes the statement the night that we went to dinner that she was "trying to let some of the stuff go that upsets her, and to better understand me", but then this and back to ignoring.    

Honestly, I want to call her on her crap and double talk.  She has no problem doing it with me... .

[formflier]

 

Very understandable and genuine feelings on your part.

How would that help... .?

[MaroonLiquid]

Very understandable and genuine feelings on your part.

How would that help... .?

Just saying it out of emotion would not help.  What I'm frustrated with is she told me what was bothering her one day and thanked me for "taking the feedback so well", yet now, she won't talk through it.  Why?  Because it isn't about me and she doesn't think I'll understand, or just so mad she doesn't care?  Really having trouble with the 2 steps forward and one step back thing.  This time not necessarily such a big step back, but feels like it is in the moment.  It would make me feel better in this moment... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So she won't respond to my text but post on facebook how "amazing" the nuts are her next-door neighbor made and brought over.  I'm starting to feel like I'm being slapped in the face.  Couldn't post to facebook how I put up her Christmas lights, but can post how her neighbor brought her pecans.  Yeah, I'm pissed at this point!   :'(

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, I'm pissed at this point!   :'(

Yup, it bites.

Try to sit with the feeling as much as you can... .and avoid contacting her while you feel this way--nothing good will come of it.

 GK

[MaroonLiquid]

Yeah, I'm pissed at this point!   :'(

Yup, it bites.

Try to sit with the feeling as much as you can... .and avoid contacting her while you feel this way--nothing good will come of it.

 GK

It's very hard for me to sit with this feeling.  I hate it.  Don't know why she wants to hurt me intentionally (maybe she isn't in her mind) when I have done nothing for months but be there for her.  I really thought after what happened between us and our daughter last week that she would start to see things a little differently, BPD traits or no BPD traits.  I figured that if she was upset with me, she would talk to me about it because of how much we had worked through last week.  I told her Friday that when she was ready to work through it, I would be there.  I feel like a chump.  I'm sorry that I'm spewing stuff, just trying to get it out. 

[formflier]

  Why?  Because it isn't about me and she doesn't think I'll understand, or just so mad she doesn't care? 

Or... it could be that she hasn't thought of it anymore.  I would stay away... .as far away as I can from trying to figure out why she does things.

1. You won't ever know for sure... .so why speculate.

2.  You will expend a lot of energy and emotion... .on speculation.


You do have some legitimacy in the gripe about facebook. 

I'm not a facebooker.  I don't think digital things have anything to do with a r/s.  There is so much room for misinterpretation. 

But... I get the point... if she posts about everything else but you... .well... what's up with that.

That is far down on the list... .but at some point... .I would ask her.

Last note:  I would stop "keeping up" with her on facebook

[Grey Kitty]

It's very hard for me to sit with this feeling.  I hate it. 

Ain't that the truth!

My suggestion that you sit with a feeling like anger, frustration, sadness, hurt, resentment, etc., etc. ... .sure wasn't because it is EASY!

Instead I suggest it because you learn about yourself when you sit with these feelings.

That and I only know three ways of coping with my feelings:

1. Experience them.

2. Stuffing them to avoid dealing with them.

3. Getting lost in them, and reacting to them without any concern for consequences of those actions.

I listed them in the order I consider most healthy to least healthy. My capacity to be in the first position is limited. I will let myself take a break and go down to the second when I can't handle them anymore. Heck... .I've even indulged myself with door #3 occasionally. (I think that's where formflier went after his shower yesterday! )

[MaroonLiquid]

It's very hard for me to sit with this feeling.  I hate it. 

Ain't that the truth!

My suggestion that you sit with a feeling like anger, frustration, sadness, hurt, resentment, etc., etc. ... .sure wasn't because it is EASY!

Instead I suggest it because you learn about yourself when you sit with these feelings.

That and I only know three ways of coping with my feelings:

1. Experience them.

2. Stuffing them to avoid dealing with them.

3. Getting lost in them, and reacting to them without any concern for consequences of those actions.

I listed them in the order I consider most healthy to least healthy. My capacity to be in the first position is limited. I will let myself take a break and go down to the second when I can't handle them anymore. Heck... .I've even indulged myself with door #3 occasionally. (I think that's where formflier went after his shower yesterday! )

Yeah, I sat there with them and just got madder and madder.  Once I calmed down, I texted and asked if she would like for me to get some Chinese take-out for dinner for everyone and bring it over.   No response.  Don't feel rejection this time, but instead almost laughing because ignoring someone is so childish, ridiculous, mean and hurtful.  Life is too short for that crap.  Grow up!

[formflier]

  (I think that's where formflier went after his shower yesterday! )

Yep... .