Feeling a phenomenal amount of hatred and anger

[Depression = 72% of members]

And I'm not sure what to do with it.

I've had to rewrite this post because it wasn't fit for the staying board

My anger is so strong right now and I'm just staying out out of her way, because if she starts her nonsense with me, I'm liable to absolutely explode about the damage she has done.

Let me put it this way. I've been reflecting on her and her parents influence in my and my children's life and I'm not coming up with any positives.

I'm going to see her family over Christmas and I've been fantasising about how to confront their corrosive, controlling, destructive, insidious, mentally insane behaviours.

I don't want her crazy family to have anything to do with my children, yet they will be there pretending nothing is wrong, and their family is perfect. Doting on and love bombing my children, showering them with presents and gifts. They've already told them how many ipods, clothes, presents they are going to buy them.         

[Moselle]

And I'm not sure what to do with it.

I've had to rewrite this post because it wasn't fit for the staying board

My anger is so strong right now and I'm just staying out out of her way, because if she starts her nonsense with me, I'm liable to absolutely explode about the damage she has done.

Let me put it this way. I've been reflecting on her and her parents influence in my and my children's life and I'm not coming up with any positives.

I'm going to see her family over Christmas and I've been fantasising about how to confront their corrosive, controlling, destructive, insidious, mentally insane behaviours.

I don't want her crazy family to have anything to do with my children, yet they will be there pretending nothing is wrong, and their family is perfect. Doting on and love bombing my children, showering them with presents and gifts. They've already told them how many ipods, clothes, presents they are going to buy them.         

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Turkish]

Other than spoiling them with gifts (and I sense this is one way you may think they assert control?), are there really any other behaviors which may be causing problems with your children?

[Moselle]

Yes, they managed to produce 6 children - my wife dBPD/NPD, #2 currently suicidal (my kids adore this one), #3 antisocial - i don't think i've seen her speak more than one sentence at one time (kids safe from this one), #4 BPD and cuts herself, also bulimic (kids adore this one too), #5 remarkably normal, #6 Narcissistic ("my clothes have feelings too" - kids adore this one).

All my kids talk about is seeing #2, #4, #6, I don't want my kids to have anything to do with them, and I haven't even mentioned the parents

[Turkish]

That's indeed an extremely toxic mix. Joining them for Christmas certainly doesn't sound like fun., At the end of the day, short of getting full custody and cutting off contact with her family, how can you protect your kids when they are with you?

If the kids adore their aunts and uncle, there doesn't seem to be any immediate harm, other than over the long term that your kids might develop distorted perceptions on what's healthy. So that leaves your anger. Do you think you may not be able to keep control from not being snarky or something like that?

[Grey Kitty]

And I'm not sure what to do with it.

I've had to rewrite this post because it wasn't fit for the staying board

My anger is so strong right now and I'm just staying out out of her way, because if she starts her nonsense with me, I'm liable to absolutely explode about the damage she has done.

I've got nothing to tell you that you don't already know about how to behave around your wife and her FOO.

My suggestion on the anger is the really hard one I've given a few other people here. Try to sit with your anger, without acting. Obviously, do this in a safe time and place for yourself.

The more you stuff this anger, the more powerful it becomes and the more explosive it will be when it gets loose.

The more you sit with it, the more you will realize exactly which of your values are being trampled, and how, and eventually be able to channel the power in it toward actions which will defend your values.

And yes, this is REALLY REALLY REALLY hard work.

[Moselle]

Turkish,  thanks for your response. You're a voice of reason whie I'm seeing red. Yes beyond becoming crazy role models for my kids there is no immediate danger.

The snarky comments are a very real possibility.  They are all very intelligent and very high functioning.  The facade is perfectly maintained during periods like Christmas. Well it's perfectly maintained all the time, except when one or two of them starts to act out and then all hell breaks loose. I've only seen that once and it scared the heck out of me. From my W I hear that was a regular occurrence growing up. But the public persona of a perfect family was maintained. They still all beleve that they are a perfect family. Even with all the issues. MIL began a public humiliation of me during the separation as "the cause of all her daughters problems" so there is a healthy amount of tension particularly between her (the queen dOCD, uBPD witch) and me a recovering enabler.

I do not want to cause a scene, it doesn't help me. Perhaps I should just be very busy and not be there? But I don't want to leave my children unattended with them. Catch 22.

Thanks GK. That helps phenomenally.  I recognize the passive aggressive coming out in me already. I will sit quietly today and try to work out which of my values are being trampled.

[Grey Kitty]

I do not want to cause a scene, it doesn't help me. Perhaps I should just be very busy and not be there? But I don't want to leave my children unattended with them. Catch 22.

Remember the tools you have learned to deal with your wife--they will help with her FOO.

If you are triggered, you WILL make things worse. Somebody there is likely to try to push your buttons just because that is who they are, and you are challenging their feelings = facts = perfect family.

So try not to take things personally if you can. And be aware if you start to get triggered, and if you do, find a way to take a break or make yourself busy. Plan ahead and have your socially graceful 'escape routes' mapped out well in your head in case you need them.

Thanks GK. That helps phenomenally.  I recognize the passive aggressive coming out in me already. I will sit quietly today and try to work out which of my values are being trampled.

Or just sit with whatever feelings come up. Anger sounds pretty likely. FYI, it is a secondary emotion, so once you sit through the anger, you are likely to find some other emotions hiding underneath it.

My experience is that the understanding of where my values are being crossed is a natural consequence of being with my feelings... .you won't have to look too hard for it.

[Moselle]

GK. I tried really hard to just be with my feelings yesterday, but I couldn't make out the primary feelings. I'm quite analytical so perhaps I'm hardwired to analyzed things instead of feel them out. But the anger I felt quite strongly. 

One year ago I was numb during her dysregulations.  Felt nothing either way. So anger and it's recognition is something new in itself for me.

This morning she had a go. "For 14 years you have ... .". It didn't trigger me at all. I smiled through it and was able to validate her. She came back later and gave me a hug. The first in two months! Slow progress.

[waverider]

I so get this, my partners FOO is the same. But the most maddening thing is they think they are the model family, the benchmark that others aspire to... . My partner is the "ugly duckling" and they dont talk about "the problems" all she needs to do is get her act together and they she can be as successful as they are .

I have been through the endless scenarios of "saying something' and "putting them in their place" . But what good will it do escalating into FOO wars wont help anyone.

The answer we came up with is to make the week leading up to xmas our annual holiday away, returning on boxing day (its summer in Aus so thats feasible). That way we cant go to Xmas family get together. We dont have to do the big juggle with her family, my family, my kids with us, and their mum (my ex),We dont have all the week before xmas panic shopping. Holiday spots are quiet and cheap as everyone descends on them on boxing day as we are leaving.

Her FOO just think we have tall poppy syndrome and have a chip on our shoulder about being around people who are so sucessfull and have got their act together.

So while they are all busy throwing their facades at each other we're by the water throwing fishing lines at the fishes... so who's having the most "successful" Xmas?

[waverider]

Doting on and love bombing my children, showering them with presents and gifts. They've already told them how many ipods, clothes, presents they are going to buy them.        

This is not generously giving it is buying praise, and they are taking advance credits on it. Classic PD behavior.

Are these your kids relatives or are your kids from a previous RS?

[Grey Kitty]

  Great work not taking things personally, and being able to feel compassion and validate! Amazing results too!

GK. I tried really hard to just be with my feelings yesterday, but I couldn't make out the primary feelings. I'm quite analytical so perhaps I'm hardwired to analyzed things instead of feel them out. But the anger I felt quite strongly. 

I do the same sort of analytical things. This sort of practice is very difficult. (This advice is pretty much instructions for mindfulness meditation, without being labeled until now.)

When you try to be with your feelings, be gentle and patient with yourself. You cannot actually control which feelings you are experiencing, only whether you sit with them or avoid them. Knowing what might be on the map ahead of you is interesting, but analytical. (i.e. other emotions underneath the anger). You cannot rush this. This is like being a little kid who doesn't understand maps in the back seat on a 500 mile road trip. "Are we there yet?" (10 minutes later) "Are we there yet?" 

When it comes to feeling... .you will go through the experience of your anger, and you will feel it dissipate. Only after this will you start to feel stuff underneath.

You've done this once already... .you worked through the numbness to find the anger.

[Cat Familiar]

When you try to be with your feelings, be gentle and patient with yourself. You cannot actually control which feelings you are experiencing, only whether you sit with them or avoid them. Knowing what might be on the map ahead of you is interesting, but analytical. (i.e. other emotions underneath the anger). You cannot rush this. This is like being a little kid who doesn't understand maps in the back seat on a 500 mile road trip. "Are we there yet?" (10 minutes later) "Are we there yet?" 

When it comes to feeling... .you will go through the experience of your anger, and you will feel it dissipate. Only after this will you start to feel stuff underneath.

You've done this once already... .you worked through the numbness to find the anger.

I'm a very analytical woman, while my husband is an extremely emotional man. I think this dynamic increases my analytical tendencies and sometimes I've felt like I don't have the luxury of feeling my feelings because I'm so busy responding to his drama queen crisis mode. (You can see the contempt in that sentence.)

I guess I'm starting to draw a boundary in that I'm telling myself "I don't give a sh!t what he's feeling right now because it will change in a half hour." It's an interesting experiment and I'm finding that if I don't respond to his drama, he has been giving it up.

Meanwhile it occurs to me that I've been neglecting my own feelings for so long, I don't even know what they are--beneath the anger that I'm feeling that he thinks his emotional needs are so much more important than mine, and I'm angry at myself too for going along with that idea. It stems from believing that I'm the strong one and he is a weak puddle of crazy self-obsessed overly-dramatic nonsense.

[formflier]

 

Best not to "confront" the behaviors in the FOO.

When interesting theories get put out there... .ask for further explanation... usually they will "hang themselves" with whacky explanations.

This is from point of view of worrying about your kids having whacky role models.  The whackier the story the less likely they will think of them as a roll model and more likely that they will think of them as eccentric relatives.

Then... .you will be fine. 

Everyone needs some "spice" in their family... .   

[waverider]

Kids have many influences and role models in their lives, and can recognise wacky when they see it, they just don't care.  "My aunt is nuts buts shes fun". It only becomes an issue when it is a dominant role model such as their parents.

[Moselle]

Formflier.  How can I not? What do you think of the following?

I will be sending them a letter. Both my parents and hers cc'd that explains what I know about my children. That we have apologised to them (our children) for the damage the conflict has done to their self esteems. We have had Borderline, Narcissistic and Co dependent traits diagnosed by qualified Psychologists as being present in our family. These facts are indisputable.

By association our children are beginning to show evidence of these traits.

We have 5 years with D13, 8 years with D10 and 13 years with D5 before their personalities are formed and set at around 18 years of age. We cannot change what has been done, but we can change what we do from now on.

We have decided as a family to recover from these things. Our apology to the children means nothing if we don't change it. We accept that it is real and indisputable, and our goal is in two years for these traits to have been eliminated and replaced by healthy behaviours. We are determined to do this as a gift to ourselves and to our children.

We have embarked on a journey to a healthy family including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Dialectical Behavioural Therapy as well as family counselling.

Please support us in our efforts?

[Turkish]

Moselle,

Maybe there is something here which I am missing, and I'm going to be blunt. Even if your 13 year old is wise beyond her years, how is sending a letter doing something for her, not to mention your 10 and 5 year olds? Is this to help them, or to help yourself? Age appropriate. Our chidlren need to be protected. They need to be mirrored, rather than them mirroring us and our feelings; that is, until they fully form their own identities.

It must be very painful to see your kids begin to exhibit BPD traits. I am going through this with S4 right now, and am trying my best to validate him. How can you work with your children yo valdate them without alienating them against their mom?

[mother in law]

Moselle the advice given to me on this site and my worry that my gd will turn out like her BPD mother purely by association,  was to keep exposing her to "normal" non combative behavior.  My gd exhibited traits of her mother also- giant tantrums when she didn't get her own way,  moods and tried to push me once when she was being disciplined.  Thankfully 4 years later with lots of talking about our expectations,  seeing consequences when she chooses bad actions and being exposed to how we choose to deal with difficult situations she is losing those traits. Children do work it out and those positive role models do influence. We try not to bad mouth her mother,  difficult at times when we are the ones being painted black, she is telling blatant lies or sending abusive texts and saying f... .off. I too get angry however any anger or explanation is lost on a BPD person so I talk it out with a friend and try to move on.

It is a hard road getting there but rewarding when you see results.  Life for our gd is still hard and i personally don't think she will come out of it unscathed however as I said I think positive role models are winning over poor role models.   Good luck.

[Moselle]

Maybe there is something here which I am missing, and I'm going to be blunt. Even if your 13 year old is wise beyond her years, how is sending a letter doing something for her, not to mention your 10 and 5 year olds? Is this to help them, or to help yourself?

It must be very painful to see your kids begin to exhibit BPD traits. I am going through this with S4 right now, and am trying my best to validate him. How can you work with your children yo valdate them without alienating them against their mom?

Thanks for being blunt :-) I do appreciate that. Re-Reading it leaves a bitter taste so I won't send it in that form. My objective is to bring this out into the open, not hidden in dark corners. I want to do it in a validating way, but also in a  way which let's them know there is a change towards health.  This is a letter by me AND my wife btw. She is very aware of her family's issues. She's the one who told me about most of it -it's comes out during her therapy. This is about saying "What was done is not OK. We are changing"

How to work with the kids, without invalidating mother? Involve her in the solution. We sat with our D13 when W was in a positive frame.  We discussed self esteem and W apologised for affecting D13's self esteem. We have a mediator helping us draft a parenting plan. I find it helps to have a 3rd voice of reason in establishing family norms and standards.  Then it's not all Moselle's plan.

When W goes bezerk at D13, I must admit that I get frustrated. The last time I decided not to invalidate W, but managed to distract her and get her out of the situation. I went back in and began to explain to D13 that what happened to her was not acceptable,  and planned how to respond next time. W then walked in on her own accord and apologised for her behaviour.

I'm learning as Formflier says. ":)on't validate the invalid", "Validate the valid"

[formflier]

 

Moselle,

Be very careful with a letter... I think this is better done in person.  Just like letters to a wife with BPD traits can bite you in the a@@... .a letter like this can well.

Yes... .you should shine light on this... .yes... you should let them know you are changing... yes it should be something your wife "leads" on .

But... you must be smart about this.

If you need some light in a room... and you flip the switch that goes from dark to full on light... everyone in the room covers their eyes... because the light hurts.  Not because of what the light shows.

Sometimes the change... .or the "light"... .is too bright.  If you used a dimmer switch... .and slowly turned it up... it would be much better.

You still get to shine the light... .but people most likely won't be as cranky because their eyes hurt.

A quick letter saying that you would like some private time to chat... .or go out to dinner privately... .is fine.  Leave the details to in person.

Practice this ahead of time... discuss in T ahead of time.  Stay away from accusing.  Focus on what they can do to help your family transition.

[Grey Kitty]

I look at a letter like this in the context of boundary enforcement vs. rule making:

"I will remove my children to protect them from bad behavior when it occurs" is very good boundary enforcement. No need to announce it, just DO it. If you need to do it preemptively, that's fine.

"You are doing this horrible ___ and messing up these children. Stop it!" is making a rule. The effect is more of provocation than protection.

Sending it to somebody else... ."These horrible people are hurting my kids. You have to help me stop them"  ... .That sounds like creating drama and spreading it around!

... .look at sending your letter, and ask yourself which one you are really doing... .and think about each individual recipient, and think about what good outcome is likely when they read the letter.



This discussion of shining light can miss something. Turning on a light *IS* important. It is fantastic work. There is a 'natural' next step after shining the light, which is pointing at the ugly stuff, and shouting about how horrible it is. This step is ... .err ... .much less helpful!

[Moselle]

OK that makes alot of sense.  

I think it's best to leave Christmas for Christmas and deal with this in the new year. T involved, W involved

They will push my buttons. Either intentionally or not, so I will have some exit plans pre-arranged if I need them.  

I agree with F2F meetings, however my W will never attend a F2F meeting with them. She's terrified. I've tried before but she refused point blank.  The backlash from the parents is massive from this stuff. The last time W had a disagreement with them, the father got sick with pneumonia.  The whole family blamed W and said if he dies, it's her fault. Ridiculous guilting.

[Grey Kitty]

  Sounds like a great Christmas plan!      Enjoy what you can, and be prepared for the rest.

I agree with F2F meetings, however my W will never attend a F2F meeting with them. She's terrified. I've tried before but she refused point blank.  The backlash from the parents is massive from this stuff. The last time W had a disagreement with them, the father got sick with pneumonia.  The whole family blamed W and said if he dies, it's her fault. Ridiculous guilting.

I'm not surprised at all about this. You are saying that your W does have some understanding of how messed up her FOO is, but doens't get all of it, and doesn't have the tools she needs to deal with it well. No surprise there--she's the one who sent you to these boards!

Here's an analogy for you; you've been on these boards a while, and are a welcoming ambassador; I'm sure you've seen lots of members dealing with their family members... .in many different ways.

When you welcome a lost, confused, desperate newbie, you may be completely aware how much they are contributing to their own misery, and see exactly what they could do to make everything work so much better for them. You don't expect them to immediately "get" all this, stand up strong and run with it. You offer them a lot of support and validation, with a few tips or tools to make things better. If they *still* don't seem to be getting it, you still support them. You accept that they are going to figure things out in their own way, and on their own time.

Your wife is like this with her FOO. With less self-awareness and less understanding of the dynamics than our newbies. And with her own mental disorder which makes things harder.

You can see exactly how toxic her FOO is to your W. Probably enmeshed and afraid. Probably lost in the FOG, herself. Be supportive. Be validating. Tread lightly with advice and suggestions.

And enforce excellent boundaries to protect your kids.

[formflier]

  so I will have some exit plans pre-arranged if I need them.  

I would rephrase that to "we". 

Pre-plan this with your wife... .work on the "signals" you will give each other. 

I also I'm getting a vibe about putting this off... that "something" should be done. 

What is a baby step.  Not a full on family meeting... .but "something" that is in the right direction.

Maybe a 1 or 2 minute thing that you wife and you say to some of them in private... .say it... and move along. 

[Moselle]

  so I will have some exit plans pre-arranged if I need them.  

I would rephrase that to "we". 

Pre-plan this with your wife... .work on the "signals" you will give each other. 

I also I'm getting a vibe about putting this off... that "something" should be done. 

What is a baby step.  Not a full on family meeting... .but "something" that is in the right direction.

Maybe a 1 or 2 minute thing that you wife and you say to some of them in private... .say it... and move along. 

W is not what I would call co-operative with me at this point, and has stated that whatever is said will not include her. She's more likely to side with them - she's terrified of the punishment, but it's also a way to wield her isolation of me.  I'll try her again though.

We had a great comboned discussion with D13 today. GK's post about boundaries prompted it.

One boundary no shouting or raising voice to D13. If happens D13 withdraws. Another - I set W up for this one though LOL. No calling D13 from the bedroom.  She acts like the queen, calling her subjects to do various errands.  New boundary - If you want to speak to a child. Get up and go to them and have a conversation in a normal voice. It's called 'respect'.

[waverider]

Sounds like your wife is intimidated by her family and has been indoctrinated over the years to fit in with the family line. Maybe even abandonment issues is causing her to be afraid of being rejected by them by openly opposing them.

Many children of disordered families have little ability to stay strong against out of line family, no matter what they may say to you in private. To do so takes a great deal of self confidence in themselves. A life time of being invalidated leaves them incapable of it.

As a result even if your wife agrees with you she is terrified of you attempting to get FOO offside. It is an alien concept to her.

Your task is to make changes without creating a war zone, as that could further pressure you wife to take sides and ingrained fear of FOO could prevail. The very least is a huge amount of triangulation as she tries to play both sides, and stay a victim in all this

[formflier]

One boundary no shouting or raising voice to D13. If happens D13 withdraws. Another - I set W up for this one though LOL. No calling D13 from the bedroom.  She acts like the queen, calling her subjects to do various errands.  New boundary - If you want to speak to a child. Get up and go to them and have a conversation in a normal voice. It's called 'respect'.

I suspect a similar conversation is coming in our household.  :)epending on emotional upset... .there is more of the queen calling her subjects in our house as well.  More upset... .more demanding they hurry to see her... .and my wife is the sole one that determines when the yelling is done.

Can you give more info on how this conversation went down?

Back to Christmas... .if you wife demands to go... .but refuses to discuss any preplanned response to abuse ... .then you may want to put boundary in place before the trip... and let her go alone.

Might be talking about two different things.

If you wife is refusing to have a serious "talk" with them... .then that is fine... .go anyway.

If your wife is alleging that all is well... no need for figuring out what constitutes a boundary... .then you are in a hard spot.  

[formflier]

Your task is to make changes without creating a war zone, as that could further pressure you wife to take sides and ingrained fear of FOO could prevail. The very least is a huge amount of triangulation as she tries to play both sides, and stay a victim in all this

And this is why it is important to get is straight in your head what is worth fighting for.  Most likely they are masters at sucking people into sideshow fights. 

Remember the earlier discussion about what is harmful... and what is "just" eccentric behavior that the kids will remember.

That is the part you have to get clear about ahead of time.

We're standing by to help with that... .

[Grey Kitty]

Back to Christmas... .if you wife demands to go... .but refuses to discuss any preplanned response to abuse ... .then you may want to put boundary in place before the trip... and let her go alone.

From the background already put forth here... .this is a lost battle. Even if your wife does agree to some sort of clean exit plan in advance, she will likely be too involved/afraid/whatever when her FOO starts going nuts.

Pre-planning solutions or contingencies with your wife is a good idea, even if she isn't open to much.

Being prepared to protect yourself and your children without her support is another plan you should make.

[Moselle]

One boundary no shouting or raising voice to D13. If happens D13 withdraws. Another - I set W up for this one though LOL. No calling D13 from the bedroom.  She acts like the queen, calling her subjects to do various errands.  New boundary - If you want to speak to a child. Get up and go to them and have a conversation in a normal voice. It's called 'respect'.

I suspect a similar conversation is coming in our household.  :)epending on emotional upset... .there is more of the queen calling her subjects in our house as well.  More upset... .more demanding they hurry to see her... .and my wife is the sole one that determines when the yelling is done.

Can you give more info on how this conversation went down?

Back to Christmas... .if you wife demands to go... .but refuses to discuss any preplanned response to abuse ... .then you may want to put boundary in place before the trip... and let her go alone.

Might be talking about two different things.

If you wife is refusing to have a serious "talk" with them... .then that is fine... .go anyway.

If your wife is alleging that all is well... no need for figuring out what constitutes a boundary... .then you are in a hard spot.  

They are the best I've ever seen at hiding what really happens. And my guess is they will have had a family meeting already about being on "best behaviour" or "perfect" mode when I am around. I realise this was an unspoken  rule when I dated my wife too. The emotional chaos fransforms when a potential boyfriend/ stranger comes to the house. Everything goes perfectly. When they leave is when the claws come out.  Only a few times when they really lost control did they show the true colours to me.

And now that they know that I know, I think they' ll be in super mode to make me doubt that there's anything wrong. That I'm the one who's crazy. I'm likely not to be spoken to very much. I If I ask for a meeting it will be the usual interrogation about what business deals I have and how much of the "folding stuff" I'm going to make. I'm not going to answer this time and the father will start rambling on about the weather, dogs, the government, any recent divorces,  who has died blah blah blah. Until I start talking about the real business.  They will then think of things to say that make it my fault.  Go for the invalidating responses and tell me that it's my fault and that there's nothing wrong with W. The father then starts giving me advice on how to be a good husband and father. After all they're the perfect parents. This is my experience from previous meeting s I've had with theM when I was seriously co-dep and trying to convince  them of W's BPD.  I'm very over that tendency now and I want to change the focus to "This is how we are raising our children. This is why we are changing our parenting styles. Respect that"

Re the queen discussion. I walked in to our room and said 'I'd like to talk about D13, are you up for that? She lit up actually. And i started to discuss what we could do to help her self esteem. It was a bit of a set up I must admit, prompted by GK's commen.t about getting boundaries set up with the children.  She then summonsed D13 in the usual manner of shouting for her. and I decided that would be one of the boundaries.  We had a good open chat about how she is doing and what we're doing as parents. At the end I said  I'd like to agree a few things between us. 1. No shouting at D13 ever when things go wrong ... .agreed... .and then I said oh there's one more.  No more calling D13 to the bedroom to run errands for us. If we want to speak to her we get up go to her and speak in a normal tone. At this point W was waving her hands and giving me all sorts of faces to stop me talking about it. LOL. But it was too late D13 loved the idea of not being  shouted for and said. Dad thats a great idea.  We shook hands and the two boundaries have been set. :-)

[formflier]

 

I love sneak attacks... .nice work Moselle... .!