Revisiting the empahty/remorse topic

[maxsterling]

Seems like every so often this topic comes up on this board as to whether our SOs have the ability to empathize.  If you go to the "leaving" board, this is also a frequent topic.  On the other board, it seems rather unanimous that they believe their ex-SOs have no capacity for true empathy, whereas on this board we seem to hold the door open for empathy in or SOs.  Understandable, because on the leaving board they are hurt and recovering from loss, and here we are still trying to move forward or at least stop the backsliding (a matter of perspective)

But that leads me to wonder:  I was in an alanon meeting last night, listening to parents of addicts share.  And a common theme for newcomers is just how badly they hurt.  Tears flow easer than words, and it's clear they long for someone to just hear and understand how badly they hurt.   It's like they come into the meeting on their last gasp of air.  Understandable, considering their stories often involve their children almost dying, being bled financially dry, violence, prison, rehabs, and many other traumatic events.  I see the same thing here, with people coming in so downtrodden and exhausted after months and years of chaos, just wanting some kind of answer and a tiny moment of peace.  We are hurting, badly hurting, many of us to the point of developing serious physical or mental health problems on our own.

I've always said my SO has the capacity for empathy, almost to the extreme at times.  I've also said she has the capacity for remorse.  She will empathize with friends and family members who have had bad things happen to them.  If she does says something hurtful to someone else, she may say, "I feel bad about the way I acted."  So she obviously feels bad, but now I wonder if she truly understands how badly she hurt other people and how much her loved ones struggles with her behavior?  Does she understand and just not have the capacity to face it or talk about it?  Or does she not understand and is instead completely self centered - "it's their problem if they were hurt."

The other day she told me that as part of her AA stepwork and making amends, her "amends" were mostly to be in better touch with her family.  And considering the emotions I see her and at Alanon meetings, I have to assume her dad, stepmom, sister, and friends felt the same hurt and worry.  And I assume that I am not the first significant other who has been extremely hurt by her behavior.  I have to assume that many of her exes spent a considerable time in despair the same way people on this message board do.  She will admit she was abusive to exes and that her behavior drove them away, but I feel little contrition or acknowledgement that her behavior could have very likely damaged someone else in the same way she feels damaged by the behavior of others.

So I guess that is my question about BPD - they may admit to bad behavior, may feel bad about it, may have empathy - but do they understand that their behavior may have seriously hurt someone emotionally?  I'm not sure if or why this matters to me, but I think it would bother me if she can never get to a place where she can understand how much others may be hurting because of her.  Right now, her sister keeps her distance.  I think there are many issues here, but I think much of it has to do with her sister feeling hurt from years of chaotic behavior, and keeping a boundary against being hurt again.  I'm not sure my SO understands that - and that makes it hard for me to validate when she talks about being hurt by her sister's emotional distance.

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[formflier]

 

Max,

Great topic.

My .02 cents.  I think that they are lower on the ability to empathize because before they can truely feel that... .they need to understand they are responsible for their actions... .

This would be in the scenario where they have hurt someone.

If I understand your post correctly... .your SO can more easily empathize with others that have been hurt by others... .rather than people she has hurt.

I see the same dynamic.  She can easily see how others hurt others... but it is rare day that she will admit to hurting others... .rare... .

If she does... .there is usually the hedge that someone else caused her to do it... .

[EaglesJuju]

I believe it depends on the pwBPD.  I agree with FF, but I do think  individual characteristics/traits factor into their empathy/remorse.  I think on a continuum of mental illness, it is not a constant state, instead there are small lapses, where a pwBPD has cogent moments.  From my experience, during one of my bf's cogent moments, he has directly apologized and was truly remorseful for his actions.  He said, "I know my behavior hurts you so much, I am sorry that I caused you so much pain."

Other times, the awareness of how his behavior affected others, is so intense for him. He does anything to avoid those feelings, such as dissociate.  A large portion of BPD characteristics is intense feelings of shame. It is hard to distinguish or understand their empathy from our view point, since pwBPD tend to avoid those feelings.  PwBPD's tendency to use defense mechanisms to avoid or internalize the feelings of shame/guilt/remorse, makes us assume that they are non empathetic.  

[Cat Familiar]

... .a pwBPD has cogent moments.  From my experience, during one of my bf's cogent moments, he has directly apologized and was truly remorseful for his actions.  He said, "I know my behavior hurts you so much, I am sorry that I caused you so much pain."

Other times, the awareness of how his behavior affected others, is so intense for him. He does anything to avoid those feelings, such as dissociate.  A large portion of BPD characteristics is intense feelings of shame. It is hard to distinguish or understand their empathy from our view point, since pwBPD tend to avoid those feelings.  PwBPD's tendency to use defense mechanisms to avoid or internalize the feelings of shame/guilt/remorse, makes us assume that they are non empathetic. 

A very good point. I see such internalized shame in my H. He's frequently moaning and saying "sh!t" or sighing. When I ask him what's wrong, he typically says "nothing" or sometimes he'll say he's remembering what he said or beating himself up for something. I hear this so often, it makes me think that his internal reality is hellish.

So the last thing he wants is more shame and having to admit how he's hurt me is not something he wants to do. He can be very empathetic for other people when he has no personal involvement.

[maxsterling]

We can have deep conversations about friends of hers, where she feels bad for her friend's predicaments because of things that have happened to them at the hands of someone else.  And we can talk about how her friends may be responsible for their own pain, and sometimes about how her friends may be responsible for the pain of others.  But I notice a few things - she can talk about how abusive her mother was towards her.  She can accept that her dad was also a victim of her mother's abuse.  Yet (maybe I am misreading her) it's like she feels that her dad was responsible for getting himself out of the abuse, and can't fully accept that her dad may have been extremely hurt by her mom's behavior.  Last night she was telling me about a traumatic experience from her childhood, in which she was left in the car while her mom violently confronted her dad after the divorce.  Yes, it was a hugely traumatic experience for her, but I didn't hear in her voice an understanding that it was also likely a traumatic experience for her dad.

Another recent conversation:  She painted a former best friend black.  For a few days she went on and on about how dysfunctional this friend is.  I tried my best to validate but not participate in the slander or gossip.  At one point, she was discussing her friend's failed relationships with men, and how she was sick of hearing about them.  She mentioned how her friend is always talking about how she "hates men".  I then asked if this is an issue her friend works on, or if she is perfectly happy hating men for the rest of her life.  She said her friend is aware of this issue and wants to work on it.  I then pointed out that maybe her failed relationships are in part due to this attitude, and that maybe this friend would just be better off not dating until she works through it, because it is not fair to the men she dates to have to face that vitriol.  And that set her off!  Next I had to deal with a raised voice about how it's impossible for a man to get raped (not true) and about how her friend's behavior towards men is perfectly justifiable because her friend was sexually abused by men as a child.  And I thought we were having a conversation about her friend's behavior.  

[ColdEthyl]

We can have deep conversations about friends of hers, where she feels bad for her friend's predicaments because of things that have happened to them at the hands of someone else.  And we can talk about how her friends may be responsible for their own pain, and sometimes about how her friends may be responsible for the pain of others.  But I notice a few things - she can talk about how abusive her mother was towards her.  She can accept that her dad was also a victim of her mother's abuse.  Yet (maybe I am misreading her) it's like she feels that her dad was responsible for getting himself out of the abuse, and can't fully accept that her dad may have been extremely hurt by her mom's behavior.  Last night she was telling me about a traumatic experience from her childhood, in which she was left in the car while her mom violently confronted her dad after the divorce.  Yes, it was a hugely traumatic experience for her, but I didn't hear in her voice an understanding that it was also likely a traumatic experience for her dad.

Another recent conversation:  She painted a former best friend black.  For a few days she went on and on about how dysfunctional this friend is.  I tried my best to validate but not participate in the slander or gossip.  At one point, she was discussing her friend's failed relationships with men, and how she was sick of hearing about them.  She mentioned how her friend is always talking about how she "hates men".  I then asked if this is an issue her friend works on, or if she is perfectly happy hating men for the rest of her life.  She said her friend is aware of this issue and wants to work on it.  I then pointed out that maybe her failed relationships are in part due to this attitude, and that maybe this friend would just be better off not dating until she works through it, because it is not fair to the men she dates to have to face that vitriol.  And that set her off!  Next I had to deal with a raised voice about how it's impossible for a man to get raped (not true) and about how her friend's behavior towards men is perfectly justifiable because her friend was sexually abused by men as a child.  And I thought we were having a conversation about her friend's behavior.  

You put her on the defensive by commenting on how her friend might be wrong. I've seen my husband do that too. One day he's got someone painted black but if I say something... .well I just don't know them, and he can flow back in and out of that. I think because they have no sense of self... .they sort of "bleed" themselves into people around them. So, if someone was painted white at the time, anything said about the friend/family member is something being said about THEM, as if if they are an extension of that person, and not their own person.

Also, they just don't being shown up or wrong. SO part of it might have been because you had the thought first.

I agree with EaglesJuju. I really think that's the cusp of it. My husband cries when there's an Amber Alert issued, but has no sympathy for his son who also shows signs of BPD.

[formflier]

and about how her friend's behavior towards men is perfectly justifiable because her friend was sexually abused by men as a child. 

I would bring this back up in a "normal" time... .and ask her for help in understanding this statement...

just my .02 

[maxsterling]

Regarding the issue with her friend - I think this is an issue of what her being agitated at not being the root cause of her emotion.  My SO was raped as a teenager, has had very loose standards when it comes to sex, has had her own hatred/distrust of men, and has ruined plenty of relationships because of that attitude.  So, she saw me as talking more than just about her friend, but about her also. And truthfully, I may have subconsciously been talking about her as well, because I do feel frustrated when she blames exes for this or that without me hearing the other side of the story.  So me saying her friend should try not dating for awhile so as to spare men the anguish - she hears me talking about her and her dating man after man, putting them all through the wringer of her emotions, and her shame of knowing it was wrong for her and not wanting to hear it hurt the men she dated also.  I think it is a subject that I should not approach again. 

[ColdEthyl]

Regarding the issue with her friend - I think this is an issue of what her being agitated at not being the root cause of her emotion.  My SO was raped as a teenager, has had very loose standards when it comes to sex, has had her own hatred/distrust of men, and has ruined plenty of relationships because of that attitude.  So, she saw me as talking more than just about her friend, but about her also. And truthfully, I may have subconsciously been talking about her as well, because I do feel frustrated when she blames exes for this or that without me hearing the other side of the story.  So me saying her friend should try not dating for awhile so as to spare men the anguish - she hears me talking about her and her dating man after man, putting them all through the wringer of her emotions, and her shame of knowing it was wrong for her and not wanting to hear it hurt the men she dated also.  I think it is a subject that I should not approach again. 

Ahh good call, Max. I see what you are saying, and I think you are right.

[formflier]

  I think it is a subject that I should not approach again. 

I might modify this to say... .not approach unless it is a "normal" time... or she is unusually introspective... .something like that.

My reasons:

Well... .there are certain things that I think need to be "challenged" appropriately.  Appropriately being the key.

Mindreading is one of them... .that is sort of what I'm doing in another post. 

Justifying abusive behavior towards person 1... .based on what person 2 did to you... .is another.

Another rephrase... .:  Saying there are things in your life that resolve you of responsibility for your actions... .or justify your actions... .should never be acquiesced to. 

That doesn't mean you "pounce" right then... .when they say it. 

I realize I didn't get "here" in an instant... .which is why I'm trying to do TLCs back towards "completely healthy" ... .or... ."normal".   

[maxsterling]

Another rephrase... .:  Saying there are things in your life that resolve you of responsibility for your actions... .or justify your actions... .should never be acquiesced to. 

I agree.  This is a big issue, and this particular incident lends to the above topic - even if she interpreted my words to be about her (or women in general), she got defensive rather than actually try to see another side of things.  I think I have a problem if that is her true attitude that she does not see how she owes it to herself and others to at least consider another viewpoint that other people may be very hurt by her behavior.  An inability to at least consider that her actions may have caused someone else intense anguish is worrisome.  She may consider the other viewpoint and declare it wrong, but at least it needs to be considered.  And I guess that is my basic question here, is that in her (or the typical pwBPD) ability, to weigh other viewpoints and see consequences of their actions.  She readily declares her behavior as bad or hurtful, but often it is from the viewpoint of it being hurtful to her or her own goals.  If someone else tries to explain to her how much her words hurt, her attitude is more of an "it's their problem, I was triggered and am equally hurt."  Does she lack that ability, or does she just block herself off from it?

I think this is one of those issues I have to be patient about, be extra aware of her moods during conversation, and chip away at slowly.  I think we have been having much better conversations as of late, and I have tried approaching this in a more roundabout way, and I think she is listening.  But the moment she starts acting defensive, I back off.  She has had a desire to go to Alanon meetings with me, and I think that is opening things up for her in considering her role in things.  But the reality is this has been a big issue for me from the very beginning.  I used to take the approach of telling her how I felt all at once, and things exploded as she felt I was blaming her.  Now I try to approach things in a way that is more validating and positive.

The other night I was talking about a friend of mine whom I have lost touch with.  She asked if I have a desire to contact this friend again.  I told her that just the other week I looked up this friend in hopes of contacting her, but found out she has moved to Abu Dhabi.  I then commented how I thought that was irrational of my friend to move with her two small children halfway around the world, and my SO got defensive, saying she has many friends who moved around the world with their kids and are earning tons of money and that she could get a job in Abu Dhabi and earn tons of money... .I gave one clarification that I felt it was irresponsible because she is very close to her family and I am sure her family misses her... .then I dropped and changed the subject. 

[formflier]

But the moment she starts acting defensive, I back off.  

I kinda do that too... .lately I've tried to push it some.  Varying results.

Somehow... .I've got this idea that I need to figure out how to "validate"... or "deal with" defensiveness... so we can get back to the conversation... the "main point".

What I worry about is a habit of getting out of uncomfortable... but productive conversations... .by being defensive.

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

What I worry about is a habit of getting out of uncomfortable... but productive conversations... .by being defensive.

Thoughts?

Understandable.  You want results.  You want productive conversations to continue so that you get more resolution.  Her getting defensive is frustrating, because no solution is reached. 

Why do you "worry" about it?  Do you feel there is some kind of time frame by Which these issues must be resolved?  Could you be okay with slow progress as long as there is progress?

[formflier]

  Could you be okay with slow progress as long as there is progress?

Yes... .fine with slow results.  As long as there is momentum in the right direction... .and the hope is that I can keep building momentum

But... yes... .TLCs are fine.  In fact... I think they are preferred... .less chance of crashing back down after a big swing.