Have I finally learned? Why so slow?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationships and people's motives.

I was a late bloomer to full-on intimate r-ships with women. Not sure why -- may be as simple as, having been raised in a conservative Catholic home, I was pretty brainwashed I guess into blindly accepting as a "rule" that sex was a serious thing that shouldn't happen until a couple had a deep commitment to each other. I suppose "brainwashed" is too strong as word; it was more like this is what I was taught, and these were the examples I was given, from as far back as I can ever remember even hearing about the idea of sex. It's what we were taught in school, it's what was preached in church, it's what our teachers, parents, older relatives and pretty much all role models and persons of influence said -- if the forbidden topic was mentioned at all. The reality was that it was predominantly not mentioned. It was all a big secret.

Looking back with the benefit of what I know about myself today, one the one hand, I'm stunned -- by how much of my "wild oats" days were spent blindly obedient to this assumption; I'm not ashamed to admit that it certainly was strong enough to override any natural biological instincts. I guess override is the wrong word -- I certainly knew sexual desire, and had a very active imagination. But I wasn't at all assertive in that area. I was as interested in the opposite sex as the rest of my male friends, but while some of them were starting to explore this side of life, some even "dating," I was still in the dark, just hanging out with my buddies. I didn't have my first real GF until I was a freshman in college -- and I kind of assumed it would last forever. It lasted 3 months, as those r-ships do -- and I took it way harder than I should have -- at that age. I simply had no experience. Next up was my first long-term r-ship, a monogamous 4-yr relationship in which sex never went much beyond heavy make-out sessions -- even though we'd spend many nights together in bed. It wasn't because I didn't want to have sex -- I loved my GF, I was very attracted to her, I was horny as hell (as you can imagine!) -- but I was rigidly programmed to believe that if sex happens, it was because the woman allowed it. And my GF was sweet, and a virgin, and had indicated while we were still in college that she intended to wait until marriage -- and I simply never pushed the limits with her. We did almost everything except have actual intercourse, and I guess to my naive self, that was enough.

I think a theme with me may very well be staying too long, combined with ignoring my gut instincts. Seems to be a trend... .

• Late bloomer wrt intimate r-ships (first real romantic r-ship not until college,
  
  followed by first long-term r-ship, lasted 4 yrs, no sex)



• First sexual relationship, progressed fast with BPD ex-wife -- who was divorced at the time, moved in almost immediately, begin pressing for marriage within a year and I, having no experience with this kind of r-ship, figured it was time to get married.
  
  She loved to have fun and be social. Alcohol was her drug of choice. Had what she described as an abusive childhood, at the hands of her alcoholic father. Mother died shortly after she was born, father remarried. Held onto idealized image of her deceased biological mom, and viewed his second wife as a classic wicked stepmother. One brother, also probs with substance abuse and failure to launch. After our divorce, remarried 3 (count 'em!) more times, and has been with current husband for over 15 years (she's 52 now).
  
  We separated when our son was about 18 mos old -- my ex cheated on me. Denied it vehemently at first, eventually confessed -- I knew I wouldn't get over it. Totally blindsided -- my first exposure to BPD as I dove into psychology texts in a desperate attempt to understand her callous and thoughtless behavior. One second I was the best thing that ever happened to her, but after I'd married her and we had a child together, she just arbitrarily decided that she didn't want to be married anymore. After a failed separation, I filed for divorce.



• Surprised to find myself able to fall in love again -- with a wonderful woman who nonetheless had lots of anxiety issues, probably PTSD, didn't recognize it at the time. Father died young, possibly alcoholism-related, mother was very critical, if I recall her descriptions. Had lots of insecurity about the "status" of our r-ship, as I was not formally divorced yet, but fully done with my ex wife in my heart and mind at the time, lots of conflict over not getting enough attention, wanting to move in, etc. I broke it off, hoping she'd come to her senses and return, but she didn't. Once the heartbreak passed, I've always had fond memories of her. Lost touch with her after she got married.



• Next GF was 5 yrs older, had commitment issues (had been engaged to an apparently good duy for 7 years, but wouldn't get married -- he moved on after he relocated for a job and she didn't follow), also some bipolar, and shared that she possibly suffered from D.I.D. We had fun, great sex, super intellectual connection -- but she never saw me exclusively and we seemed to recognize that there wasn't much of a future. At the time, she was 42, but regularly stressed that she wanted to have a family, while showing zero interest in my then 5-yr-old son. We had a rational discussion, ended the r-ship, saw each other one last time, then stopped communicating. About a month later, she called me, irate about being "dumped." I tried to talk to her, but she said, "Have a good life" and hung up.



• Met a recent grad, 13 yrs younger than me. Product of broken home, described father as alcoholic, though in our time together, I never got that impression -- I thought he was a good guy, responsible, cared about his family, we got along, he had a career. Mother seemed to have been paralyzed since the end of their marriage, I think. Lots of health probs, never remarried, though she'd converted to Judaism because she had some unrequited love for a rabbi who had shown her kindness when her marriage first ended. Sweet woman, but def weird. Always referred to my GF as "angel honey," clearly could not discipline the children, of whom she had shared custody.
  
  She was smart, funny, liked to have fun, liked to drink, party and loved sex. Once responded to a survey question -- "How do you work off stress?" -- with the answer ":)rinking and sex!" Claimed she knew she never wanted kids, moved in with me about a week after I first told her that I loved her. Wasn't my intention, but I let her stay -- turned into a 6-yr r-ship, during which she began to push for marriage, we got engaged, and she had an affair with a colleague who worked in the same field as she did. (We also worked together.) I broke off the engagement and made her move out. She lost her job about 6 months later, and moved back in, I caught her flirting with people online and on her phone, ended it. Within 3 months of moving back home, she'd met a new guy and moved in with him. Still with him today.

I left out a few shorter r-ships that were more just dating than anything serious. After I split up with my fiancee, I was single for about 5 years. Did the online dating thing, met a lot of people, no one I was really interested in until my ex... .and the rest is history.

So, my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away. Then, my r-ship with my former fiancee, most likely bipolar, taught me that even though you though it would work, it's ok to call off an engagement. Because of these experiences, the flags were clear in my most recent r-ship, and then prevented me from combining households, and from getting engaged or married. But, still, I stayed until I couldn't take it anymore. My lesson may very well be as simple as this: If it's a struggle after a few weeks or months, or if you just aren't on the same age about big things like your "status" or the timeline of moving forward -- it's probably time to think about moving on.

That was a helluva lot longer than I intended for it to be -- sorry. Like I said -- I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationship stuff.

But I hope at least I'm learning. Interested in your feedback.

[eyvindr]

I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationships and people's motives.

I was a late bloomer to full-on intimate r-ships with women. Not sure why -- may be as simple as, having been raised in a conservative Catholic home, I was pretty brainwashed I guess into blindly accepting as a "rule" that sex was a serious thing that shouldn't happen until a couple had a deep commitment to each other. I suppose "brainwashed" is too strong as word; it was more like this is what I was taught, and these were the examples I was given, from as far back as I can ever remember even hearing about the idea of sex. It's what we were taught in school, it's what was preached in church, it's what our teachers, parents, older relatives and pretty much all role models and persons of influence said -- if the forbidden topic was mentioned at all. The reality was that it was predominantly not mentioned. It was all a big secret.

Looking back with the benefit of what I know about myself today, one the one hand, I'm stunned -- by how much of my "wild oats" days were spent blindly obedient to this assumption; I'm not ashamed to admit that it certainly was strong enough to override any natural biological instincts. I guess override is the wrong word -- I certainly knew sexual desire, and had a very active imagination. But I wasn't at all assertive in that area. I was as interested in the opposite sex as the rest of my male friends, but while some of them were starting to explore this side of life, some even "dating," I was still in the dark, just hanging out with my buddies. I didn't have my first real GF until I was a freshman in college -- and I kind of assumed it would last forever. It lasted 3 months, as those r-ships do -- and I took it way harder than I should have -- at that age. I simply had no experience. Next up was my first long-term r-ship, a monogamous 4-yr relationship in which sex never went much beyond heavy make-out sessions -- even though we'd spend many nights together in bed. It wasn't because I didn't want to have sex -- I loved my GF, I was very attracted to her, I was horny as hell (as you can imagine!) -- but I was rigidly programmed to believe that if sex happens, it was because the woman allowed it. And my GF was sweet, and a virgin, and had indicated while we were still in college that she intended to wait until marriage -- and I simply never pushed the limits with her. We did almost everything except have actual intercourse, and I guess to my naive self, that was enough.

I think a theme with me may very well be staying too long, combined with ignoring my gut instincts. Seems to be a trend... .

• Late bloomer wrt intimate r-ships (first real romantic r-ship not until college,
  
  followed by first long-term r-ship, lasted 4 yrs, no sex)



• First sexual relationship, progressed fast with BPD ex-wife -- who was divorced at the time, moved in almost immediately, begin pressing for marriage within a year and I, having no experience with this kind of r-ship, figured it was time to get married.
  
  She loved to have fun and be social. Alcohol was her drug of choice. Had what she described as an abusive childhood, at the hands of her alcoholic father. Mother died shortly after she was born, father remarried. Held onto idealized image of her deceased biological mom, and viewed his second wife as a classic wicked stepmother. One brother, also probs with substance abuse and failure to launch. After our divorce, remarried 3 (count 'em!) more times, and has been with current husband for over 15 years (she's 52 now).
  
  We separated when our son was about 18 mos old -- my ex cheated on me. Denied it vehemently at first, eventually confessed -- I knew I wouldn't get over it. Totally blindsided -- my first exposure to BPD as I dove into psychology texts in a desperate attempt to understand her callous and thoughtless behavior. One second I was the best thing that ever happened to her, but after I'd married her and we had a child together, she just arbitrarily decided that she didn't want to be married anymore. After a failed separation, I filed for divorce.



• Surprised to find myself able to fall in love again -- with a wonderful woman who nonetheless had lots of anxiety issues, probably PTSD, didn't recognize it at the time. Father died young, possibly alcoholism-related, mother was very critical, if I recall her descriptions. Had lots of insecurity about the "status" of our r-ship, as I was not formally divorced yet, but fully done with my ex wife in my heart and mind at the time, lots of conflict over not getting enough attention, wanting to move in, etc. I broke it off, hoping she'd come to her senses and return, but she didn't. Once the heartbreak passed, I've always had fond memories of her. Lost touch with her after she got married.



• Next GF was 5 yrs older, had commitment issues (had been engaged to an apparently good duy for 7 years, but wouldn't get married -- he moved on after he relocated for a job and she didn't follow), also some bipolar, and shared that she possibly suffered from D.I.D. We had fun, great sex, super intellectual connection -- but she never saw me exclusively and we seemed to recognize that there wasn't much of a future. At the time, she was 42, but regularly stressed that she wanted to have a family, while showing zero interest in my then 5-yr-old son. We had a rational discussion, ended the r-ship, saw each other one last time, then stopped communicating. About a month later, she called me, irate about being "dumped." I tried to talk to her, but she said, "Have a good life" and hung up.



• Met a recent grad, 13 yrs younger than me. Product of broken home, described father as alcoholic, though in our time together, I never got that impression -- I thought he was a good guy, responsible, cared about his family, we got along, he had a career. Mother seemed to have been paralyzed since the end of their marriage, I think. Lots of health probs, never remarried, though she'd converted to Judaism because she had some unrequited love for a rabbi who had shown her kindness when her marriage first ended. Sweet woman, but def weird. Always referred to my GF as "angel honey," clearly could not discipline the children, of whom she had shared custody.
  
  She was smart, funny, liked to have fun, liked to drink, party and loved sex. Once responded to a survey question -- "How do you work off stress?" -- with the answer ":)rinking and sex!" Claimed she knew she never wanted kids, moved in with me about a week after I first told her that I loved her. Wasn't my intention, but I let her stay -- turned into a 6-yr r-ship, during which she began to push for marriage, we got engaged, and she had an affair with a colleague who worked in the same field as she did. (We also worked together.) I broke off the engagement and made her move out. She lost her job about 6 months later, and moved back in, I caught her flirting with people online and on her phone, ended it. Within 3 months of moving back home, she'd met a new guy and moved in with him. Still with him today.

I left out a few shorter r-ships that were more just dating than anything serious. After I split up with my fiancee, I was single for about 5 years. Did the online dating thing, met a lot of people, no one I was really interested in until my ex... .and the rest is history.

So, my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away. Then, my r-ship with my former fiancee, most likely bipolar, taught me that even though you though it would work, it's ok to call off an engagement. Because of these experiences, the flags were clear in my most recent r-ship, and then prevented me from combining households, and from getting engaged or married. But, still, I stayed until I couldn't take it anymore. My lesson may very well be as simple as this: If it's a struggle after a few weeks or months, or if you just aren't on the same age about big things like your "status" or the timeline of moving forward -- it's probably time to think about moving on.

That was a helluva lot longer than I intended for it to be -- sorry. Like I said -- I tend to be a slow learner, when it comes to relationship stuff.

But I hope at least I'm learning. Interested in your feedback.

[Grey Kitty]

Good list of relationships. You mention things you learned about relationships. 

You didn't say what you learned about yourself through these relationships. I think that sort of assessment could help you.

One common thread: They all had serious mental health issues. (except possibly the first college r/s.)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

[parisian]

my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away

eyvindr, there are lots of reasons I think to take your time to commit to a relationship. Not just about waiting to move in although it's good you learnt that. Another excellent point you touch on is that at any point in time in the 'get to know you phase', you are 'allowed' to change your mind about that person. Actually you can change your mind at any point in time, not just during the dating phase and we all know what prevents us doing that

Dating slowly I've realized is so important so you can:

1. Really get to know someone across a wide range of circumstances

2. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

3.  Make sure you are really happy within yourself , that the r/s is not just about being lonely and needy

4. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

5. Get to know their values, character and what type of person they are

6. Take your time to see if any red flags pop up during any of that

[Pingo]

Eyvindr, do you see patterns in the different women you've been with?  How they made you feel as a man?  And do you see patterns in your role with these women?  I have had a lot of different r/ss in my lifetime, I wasn't meant to be with one long term partner apparently.  It's been helpful to look back and find the patterns and my role and where it stems from.  I think it's more than just learning the lesson these r/ss were to teach us, I think it's about healing some core wounds that we are sometimes not even aware of.

[billypilgrim]

Why so slow? I've asked myself this same question.  I've managed to spend 9 years of my 26 on this earth with 2 cluster Bs.  I married the second one.  For me, the reason I not only got involved but stayed up until they left was due to my FOO issues.  Specifically my abusive, alcoholic, and NPD grandfather.  He played a major role in "raising" me and still is a prominent figure in my family.  So the abuse from my two cluster bs that I dealt with in my relationships was familiar and normal to me.  I've been used to appeasing, or at least trying my best to appease, those types of people since I was very young.  I kept the peace as a kid by not sticking up for myself to protect my parents from his rages and drama.  I watched my father endure the same sorts of abuse and I copied him.  It's now on me to rid myself of these early survival techniques and build newer, healthier ones so I don't end up back here.  I'm learning how to put myself before others, which is completely foreign to me.  

I do think I have learned that the next time I wake up and realize that I'm not happy or that my needs are completely being ignored, I won't stick it out or try make things better.  I'm also not going to rescue anymore potential partners.  I'll keep my rescuing tendencies to ones with 4 legs only.      

So maybe for you, there's some familiarity with caretaking/catering to someone in your family.  But as others have said, it's no coincidence that you have found yourself with similar types of partners.  

[eyvindr]

Thanks all for the responses -- I appreciate it.

parisian  -- I believe that I understand these things, and agree with everything you said.

my first BPD r-ship taught me to w-a-i-t -- don't move in right away

eyvindr, there are lots of reasons I think to take your time to commit to a relationship. Not just about waiting to move in although it's good you learnt that. Another excellent point you touch on is that at any point in time in the 'get to know you phase', you are 'allowed' to change your mind about that person. Actually you can change your mind at any point in time, not just during the dating phase and we all know what prevents us doing that

I can see that while I learned not to rush into full-scale enmeshment, I still seem to have a habit of holding out hope after I've begun to see red flags. So maybe I confuse my resistance to becoming enmeshed with commitment? As in, I feel like it's ok to commit to someone emotionally, but to be on guard about becoming enmeshed -- when maybe if I sense the danger of enmeshment, it should tell me that this isn't someone I can healthily commit to? I've never been someone who "dates around" -- I'm interested in one person at a time, and except for the few r-ships that I didn't list (would be happy to share, if it would benefit the discussion, but I'm trying not to ramble too much, as I tend to do on these boards), I've only pursued relationships with women who, after a few dates, I feel very interested in -- and where that interest level seems mutual. Seems to make sense, but I must be doing something wrong, because it hasn't worked yet.

Pingo -- thanks for the feedback. I definitely see patterns. I'm all about pattern identification! ("blame it on the O-C-D... ."

Eyvindr, do you see patterns in the different women you've been with?  How they made you feel as a man?  And do you see patterns in your role with these women?  I have had a lot of different r/ss in my lifetime, I wasn't meant to be with one long term partner apparently.  It's been helpful to look back and find the patterns and my role and where it stems from.  I think it's more than just learning the lesson these r/ss were to teach us, I think it's about healing some core wounds that we are sometimes not even aware of.

The most obvious common trait being that all of my exes had serious enough emotional issues that they eventually led me to end our relationships. People say "I don't do drama," but I've found it's often just talk. I really don't do drama. I have some kind of genetic repulsion to it -- it just feels like such a complete and utter waste of time, and when I feel like it's starting to happen, I try to gently suggest that maybe it's time to take a breath -- and when my partners resist the calm, reasonable approach, I'm happy to permit them to "have their moment," but I am clear that I'm not going to participate in it. I guess I'm stupid or something, because I still, despite all of these failed r-ships, don't see how my approach is anything other than reasonable, fair and, hell -- easy, really. Helluva lot easier than fighting until 3 in the morning, as so often happens with people who had PDs!

Ok, more patterns. All of may serious exes have had daddy issues, some have had mommy issues, some have had both. Many were or claimed to be survivors of abuse (I have no reason to doubt them). Things get even more weird when you look at all the "motherless child" connections -- my biological mother's biological father's mother died when he was a child; my mom's mother died when she was a child; my ex wife's mother died when she was a child; both my ex fiancee and my most recent ex GF had mothers who weren't able to separate from their kids (no discipline, no passing on of healthy coping mechanisms, both bipolar to the best of my knowledge). I mean, it's a little creepy, no? Like a regular Parade of Motherless Children!

Contrasting with me, who had both parents, both present, both contributing. Probably a bit of the lonely child in my background, being the oldest in a family of 8 kids, pretty much trauma-free. Only thing that stands out is that both of my parents had a pretty practical emotional style. They were always there for us, I always felt loved and accepted, I certainly never worried that I was going to be abandoned, home felt safe, we had food, clothes, heat. But the emotional nurturing was practical, as I said -- or maybe passive? Like, it was taken for granted, because we were a family. But we never had conversations about emotions, and it wasn't until we kids were grown up that you ever heard the phrase "I love you" actually said out loud to each other.

But -- I know all of that, and despite the patterns, honest to God, all of these women presented themselves to me during the "getting to know you" period as mentally healthy, easy-going, open-minded and interested in friendship -- if they didn't, I would not have been interested in spending time with them. And if I wasn't spending time with them, I wouldn't become interested in pursuing relationships with them. I keep coming back to my primary dilemma: I feel like I keep getting duped, either intentionally or not, and ending up in the same damned boat! How can you get into a relationship without accepting that the person you're getting to know is going to have different feelings about life than you do, different experiences that have formed them? But, if they keep reassuring you with their words and behaviors that they're good, solid potential partners, right up until you fall in love with them, and then *bam!* -- hey, hey it's bippidee time again! -- what the hell is a guy supposed to do?

Well, I guess, maybe bail. Though, if everyone in every new r-ship bailed at the first conflict, there wouldn't be too many long-term r-ships happening. Or maybe, like Pingo, I'm just not meant to be in long-term r-ships. I have considered it. Kinda sucks, but I could live. I'm not miserable alone. I enjoy my own company. But I'm a pretty objective guy, and I'm pretty sure that I didn't drive all of these women nuts. That stuff was there way before I came along.

Thanks for sharing, billypilgrim. I'm sorry you and your family had to witness and suffer such abuse from your grandfather. That's rough.

Why so slow? I've asked myself this same question.  I've managed to spend 9 years of my 26 on this earth with 2 cluster Bs.  I married the second one.  For me, the reason I not only got involved but stayed up until they left was due to my FOO issues.  Specifically my abusive, alcoholic, and NPD grandfather.  He played a major role in "raising" me and still is a prominent figure in my family.  So the abuse from my two cluster bs that I dealt with in my relationships was familiar and normal to me.  I've been used to appeasing, or at least trying my best to appease, those types of people since I was very young.  I kept the peace as a kid by not sticking up for myself to protect my parents from his rages and drama.  I watched my father endure the same sorts of abuse and I copied him.  It's now on me to rid myself of these early survival techniques and build newer, healthier ones so I don't end up back here.  I'm learning how to put myself before others, which is completely foreign to me. 

I do think I have learned that the next time I wake up and realize that I'm not happy or that my needs are completely being ignored, I won't stick it out or try make things better.  I'm also not going to rescue anymore potential partners.  I'll keep my rescuing tendencies to ones with 4 legs only.

So maybe for you, there's some familiarity with caretaking/catering to someone in your family.  But as others have said, it's no coincidence that you have found yourself with similar types of partners. 

Pattern-lover that I am, I'd see this if it were there to be seen in my background. There was no abuse in my history. My parents loved me, and all of us, in the best way they could, and gave all of us as much attention as possible for two people trying to manage a large family. My dad worked, my mom took care of the home -- very traditional. Time and money were limited -- neither of my parents had substance abuse issues, and the extent of their social life consisted of having a few close friends or relatives visit. Have I gone wrong by seeking something other than what I grew up with? Has that simple personal choice on my part led to all of this chaos in my romantic history? Or am I just a s-l-o-w learner!

Grey -- thanks for getting to the point! What are you, a therapist?

Good list of relationships. You mention things you learned about relationships. 

You didn't say what you learned about yourself through these relationships. I think that sort of assessment could help you.

One common thread: They all had serious mental health issues. (except possibly the first college r/s.)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

That's the question alright. That's what I'm asking. If you wanted to, you could summarize my OP by saying, "What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence." So... .

Am I completely oblivious to red flags for the first few months of a relationship?

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

Was I incarnated here on Earth to provide a share of loving kindness to people who desperately need it, but who don't know how to go about giving and receiving love openly and positively?

Have I just had a lot of bad luck, and am I just over-thinking the whole thing?

Seriously, it would help to know this. I'm ready to get on with my life without repeating these kinds of experiences anymore. If I don't figure something out soon, I'm ready to just drop it all, accept that I can't figure it out, and chalk it up to experience.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey -- thanks for getting to the point! What are you, a therapist?

Funny you should ask that. No, I'm not. Earlier this week my wife said I would be a good one. I shared that comment to another friend, and she said I would be an AWESOME one.  (There's a saying: If three people say you're a duck, start quacking... .)

What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence.

That's the question alright. That's what I'm asking. If you wanted to, you could summarize my OP by saying, "What's with that? You chose/accepted too many for me to believe it is a coincidence." So... .

Am I completely oblivious to red flags for the first few months of a relationship?

Given your statement [following quote], the pattern of evidence says clearly YES you are missing the    :

But -- I know all of that, and despite the patterns, honest to God, all of these women presented themselves to me during the "getting to know you" period as mentally healthy, easy-going, open-minded and interested in friendship -- if they didn't, I would not have been interested in spending time with them. And if I wasn't spending time with them, I wouldn't become interested in pursuing relationships with them. I keep coming back to my primary dilemma: I feel like I keep getting duped, either intentionally or not, and ending up in the same damned boat! How can you get into a relationship without accepting that the person you're getting to know is going to have different feelings about life than you do, different experiences that have formed them? But, if they keep reassuring you with their words and behaviors that they're good, solid potential partners, right up until you fall in love with them, and then *bam!* -- hey, hey it's bippidee time again!

There's a laundry list of possibilities here... .

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

Was I incarnated here on Earth to provide a share of loving kindness to people who desperately need it, but who don't know how to go about giving and receiving love openly and positively?

I can't answer you... .All I can say is... .any are possible. What are you finding that feels like it fits?

Have I just had a lot of bad luck, and am I just over-thinking the whole thing?

Possible... .but unlikely. And if you believe this, I think it leads you more to this one! [following quote]

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

You are likely to repeat this pattern until you understand something about it. I'd recommend digging deeper before dating seriously. A professional therapist could help, especially if amateur's like me aren't getting you there.

In some ways, your 'perfect' or 'healthy' FOO reminds me of myself and my FOO. I did some exploring of my own issues, and found some stuff related to my FOO in this topic. Perhaps something in it will ring a chord with you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236486.msg12522074#msg12522074

[jhkbuzz]

Ok, more patterns. All of may serious exes have had daddy issues, some have had mommy issues, some have had both. Many were or claimed to be survivors of abuse (I have no reason to doubt them). Things get even more weird when you look at all the "motherless child" connections …. I mean, it's a little creepy, no? Like a regular Parade of Motherless Children!

Contrasting with me, who had both parents, both present, both contributing... .

I've thought about this one a lot, because I had a pretty stable 2-parent upbringing, but my ex had lots of early childhood trauma. Her parents divorced when she was 5 and the relationship came to a violent end with an ambulance being called; her mother was depressed and suicidal most of her growing up; she was neglected - her mom often didn't come home at night and she (though a little girl herself) had to raise her younger sister. On top of all this, she had a traumatic young adulthood - raped in college, the father of her daughter was 20 years older than her and an abusive alcoholic; next r/s the same, only the physical abuse was even more brutal... .all awful, horrible stuff.  Combine these stories with the fact that she was the sweetest, gentlest woman I had ever met, and my protective, nurturing, hero complex was TRIGGERED! After I fell in love with her, I believed that my steadfast love was exactly what she needed to help her heal.  

ummmm... .nothing worked out quite the way I thought it would... .as you know.    

What have I learned?  That I need to get to know someone very well before I commit.  And honestly, I would never again become deeply involved with someone who has experienced that level of trauma.  That may sound cold, but it's the truth.  Perhaps you need to create that kind of boundary for yourself - you have repeatedly chosen traumatized partners, and the result is the same.  The real question is, what is it in YOU that draws you to traumatized people?

Do I give off some kind of signal that attracts emotionally damaged people to me? Is it because they know I'm "safe"? Like children, do they find in me the security that they may have lacked with their own parents? If so, why me?

Funny, my T and I had this very conversation this week. I do think there might be something in me that is drawn to more unstable women.  I described being in a bar recently with a large group of people - there were both single people and couples.  One woman was there with her boyfriend... .but every time I happened to turn her way she purposely caught my eye.  After a few times I found myself intrigued ("hmmmm... .wonder what that's about... .wonder what her story is? Sure would be interesting to find out... ." - but then I stopped myself cold. Crazy eyes!  My exBPDgf lured me the exact same way! Staring at me intensely - repeatedly - in different situations (we "loosely" worked together) - almost uncomfortably so - until I stared thinking... ."hmmmm... .wonder what that's about... .wonder what her story is? Sure would be interesting to find out... ."

Oh, I found out alright.

So... .WTF? Why am I intrigued by women like this?

My T then asked me how I think other people see me, and I said that I think I come across as a "strong" - assertive, calm, intelligent, confident, articulate.  She then asked me to think about the type of person that might be drawn to that, saying that people are like magnets - they are like opposing forces that attract.

Hmmmmm... .

If we do sometimes seek what we lack in relationships with other people, then it comes as no surprise that more "unstable" people might be attracted to my "stability" - my strength and my strong sense of myself.

But the bigger question is, why am I attracted to THEM?

Your focus in the above quote is what attracted them to you.  But it takes two to tango, my friend.  I think you need to flip your focus.

[Pingo]

Have I unconsciously internalized my own mother's unresolved grief over losing her mother as a child? Is it manifesting in my life outwardly by my "adoption" of other "motherless girls" as partners? Am I a surrogate mother without knowing it?

I would explore this further.  When I read your first post this stood out to me the most.  I think you are on to something.

Am I doomed to repeat this pattern until I die?

Absolutely not!  Once there is an awareness there is choice.  You see the patterns, you cannot ignore them now!

[eyvindr]

Grey, jhk, Pingo --

Thank you all for the great and thoughtful feedback. It's helping me way more than most of the therapists I've had over the years! I really appreciate your honesty and directness -- I'd like to get to the bottom of this for myself.

Lots of threads here, and I've been all over these boards, so I wanted to pull in some recent ideas that have landed in other threads, to keep this discussion focused and moving forward. I'll colorize or in some way highlight the bits that feel most important.



I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be. I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense (like those videos I've seen of 4-wheelers slowly approaching some precarious obstacle, creeping ever closer to the edge before beginning to crawl their way over sharp rocks and steep crevices). Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ? I know that still doesn't answer the question about why I'm attracted to women who appear healthy, but who are troubled. (And anytime I suggest that something here may be simple, my fellow BPDFam members pretty consistently dismiss it outright.)

jhk and I were over on the "Why do we recycle?" thread, and I had an epiphany -- I'll re-post it here:

Trog: I recycled because I loved her and listened to the words as opposed to the actions. I hoped, because I had a pretty good control of other situations, that things would improve simply due to my effort.

jhk: OMG Trog this is EXACTLY how I thought... .and how ___ed up is that, huh? I really believed that I had enough love for her and stability & strength in myself that I could "fix" the problems in our relationship.

Me: Pretty presumptuous of us, right? Though, in our defense -- I think it's pretty reasonable to feel like you can influence the outcome of a situation. It's our rational minds simply doing their rational thing. Especially if in most areas of our lives, we've demonstrated the capacity to be flexible, understanding, reasonable -- we don't need to sell ourselves short here. Yes, it's pretty arrogant to think we can control another person's behavior -- but finding out you have a partner who is (or may be) suffering from BPD is a bit of a wildcard.

I think where we go wrong is when we begin to fully realize that this is what we're dealing with, and still attempt to apply reason to solving it. Because it's an existential emotional problem, not a logical one. That's exactly the junction where the overwhelming frustration and a sense of helplessness kicked in for me. Because we love our partners, we don't want to give up. In my case, I tried even harder to make it work, by redoubling my efforts to apply reason to it -- which I can see now was a completely futile strategy. I can even see where that would irritate and frustrate the hell out of even a rational partner.

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern in my approach to this. When I missed red flags during the "getting to know each other" phase, that set the stage for falling in love with my partner. Once I began realizing that those weird little behaviors, seemingly out of proportion emotional responses to things actually were flags, I needed to see them for what they were -- signs of dysregulation -- versus assuming they were just little things that could be resolved with reason.

I think in my relationships with troubled women, I've diminished red flags in a unconscious effort to convince myself that I could still make the relationship work. Because my hopes to have the kind of ideal r-ship that I wanted with the people I was in love with was very high, because I was very in love with them.

[/color]

Here's another entry from the File under: "I can fix anything!" folder -- from over on the "Why do I always want to play the rescuer?" thread:

I think I must have a twisted attraction to clusterbees, too (it sounds like a pretty good candy). What has puzzled me for years is that the thought of being a rescuer, in this sense, literally makes my skin crawl! It gives me the heebie-jeebies! I don't know what makes it so severe.

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

So, when I meet people who give off some vibe that they think it's ok to lean on other people for everything, as opposed to just when they need help, or who feel like their gender or social status or particular set of personal challenges entitles them to treatment that I don't expect for myself, it really rubs me the wrong way. Seriously, it makes me want to run! Yet, every long-term serious relationship that I've ever had has been with a partner who, after the initial infatuation, has turned out to be either completely irresponsible, or only responsible in some areas -- and, where they haven't pulled their own weight, they've been quite comfortable leading me to believe that for them this kind of stuff falls squarely under the heading of "BF duties." Each of these women initially presented themselves as being together, happy, independent, secure -- all of them! Some were worse than other, but none of them were who they pretended they were.

Maybe the trick is, when I offer to help someone, I need to look for signs that they try to refuse, instead of immediately taking me up on the offer. Maybe that would indicate to me that, while my offer is sincere, they wish that they could handle it on their own, and already had a plan. That could at least show me that, even if they eventually did accept my help, they appreciated it, and understood that it wasn't something they were entitled to. It's something that someone gives you, out of care, concern and love -- not because they want something from you.

[/color]

Does this help? Raise more questions? Give us some direction? Narrow anything down? I know you can't answer my questions for me -- I have to do that myself. But it actually helps me for you to toss your theories out for me to consider -- I feel like I have a lot of information, but I'm still not connecting the dots for myself. I'm working really hard here, but the insights aren't coming home to roost yet. Thanks again for hanging in there with me.

[eyvindr]

I just read this and it really resonated with me -- from over on the "BPD and npd at same time, really?" thread:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

[Pingo]

Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ?

What are you getting out of the role as the one who must 'fix' these r/ss?  What feelings are you avoiding by focusing on being the 'fixer' or what needs are you fulfilling by being the 'fixer'?  How do you define yourself when you realise you cannot fix the r/s and have to walk away? 

I'm asking you these questions because I see myself in this role too and these are the questions I've been asking myself lately.

For me?  What do I get out of the role?  I get to be the compassionate one who is forever understanding and can prove my self-worth by caring, even at the expense of my own needs (martyr?).  What am I avoiding?  Dealing with my own pain and feelings of failure and unworthiness by focusing on his dysfunction and illness.  How did I define myself when I walked away?  At first, a failure.  A fool.  And this is what kept me there so long.  I hated the idea of failing yet another r/s. 

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

I can totally relate to this, it's how I have lived my life too.  From all the reading and learning I have been doing, I can see that this can lead to being a defense mechanism as a way to hide our vulnerability.  In order to need others or accept help from others, we have to show our vulnerability.  This has been very difficult for me.  I'm just starting to practise 'allowing' myself to lean on others.  It's the only way to true intimacy, allowing people in.

I just read this and it really resonated with me -- from over on the "BPD and npd at same time, really?" thread:

Right now the focus is on myself with regard to the damage done to me by my mother, and how said damage has affected what I "see" regarding woman when I "look at them." It's odd ... .I'm not "attracted to" what would be "normal" women. I treat them on a totally cognitive scale (no emotional picture at all), and interest in them is based on how they think - and it really doesn't go beyond "friends."

However, you show me a woman in "pain" and every light on my empathy board goes on. When the BPD woman popped up, I was like - pain ... .I get it ... .I see you. No pain? I don't get it.

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

For me, it isn't the underlying pain or trauma... .it is the 'need'.  My first husband had underlying pain and trauma but he didn't 'need' me.  And I didn't go into 'rescuing' mode with him.  Although his underlying pain came through in his inability to deal with anger, I never felt the urge to fix him. I wanted him to fix himself.  But it was not a codependent r/s.  Not coincidentally, it wasn't a very passionate r/s either.  I never felt the bond I did with my uBPDexh.  Even after 10 yrs together.

[jhkbuzz]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself.  I'm not sure that you will be able to uncover it by yourself - I really think you may need a therapist to engage in that kind of work.

We seem to be very similar, you and I.  Intelligent, rational thinkers who think deeply.  Analyze things from every angle possible.  Probably over-thinkers.  And with all of that thinking I can STILL show up for a session with my T and she will offer an insight, or a way of considering an issue that has never ever occurred to me. In the 6 months I've been seeing her I've become convinced that there is a good chance that, in partnership with her, I will get to the root of what has kept me hooked and in pain over this failed r/s. Not her "working her magic."  Not me sitting at home (or on these boards) trying to analyze myself.  But in partnership with her, in a committed, caring therapeutic relationship. And I think it will be the hardest thing I've ever done because I suspect I will uncover things that I've been hiding from myself for decades.

What has puzzled me for years is that the thought of being a rescuer, in this sense, literally makes my skin crawl! It gives me the heebie-jeebies! I don't know what makes it so severe.

I was raised and have been conditioned to be responsible, and to take care of myself. Having done that ever since being on my own, I know it's hard, but I accept is as how life is. I've never expected anyone else to take care of me or to cover for my obligations -- no one. Granted, it's an appealing thought -- but you just don't shirk your responsibilities. You earn what you have, you pay for what you want, you aren't entitled to anything, you aren't better than anyone else, and, if you can help, you should. And you can only be in a position to help if you've got your own life under control. That's what I was taught, that's how I've experienced life -- and it seems to work pretty good that way, really... .

So, when I meet people who give off some vibe that they think it's ok to lean on other people for everything, as opposed to just when they need help, or who feel like their gender or social status or particular set of personal challenges entitles them to treatment that I don't expect for myself, it really rubs me the wrong way. Seriously, it makes me want to run!

I feel EXACTLY the same.  That's been one of the biggest "puzzles" for me - how I ended up in a co-dependent relationship with someone when it truly goes against my entire belief system, and how I've lived my life.

[jhkbuzz]

Could it be as simple -- and as confusing -- as this: I know why I keep staying in these r-ships (I think I can fix them), but I've learned that I ought to leave them (because I'm not getting my needs met, and I can't fix them) -- but I stay anyways -- ?

What are you getting out of the role as the one who must 'fix' these r/ss?  What feelings are you avoiding by focusing on being the 'fixer' or what needs are you fulfilling by being the 'fixer'?  How do you define yourself when you realise you cannot fix the r/s and have to walk away?  

I'm asking you these questions because I see myself in this role too and these are the questions I've been asking myself lately.

For me?  What do I get out of the role?  I get to be the compassionate one who is forever understanding and can prove my self-worth by caring, even at the expense of my own needs (martyr?).  What am I avoiding?  :)ealing with my own pain and feelings of failure and unworthiness by focusing on his dysfunction and illness.  How did I define myself when I walked away?  At first, a failure.  A fool.  And this is what kept me there so long.  I hated the idea of failing yet another r/s.  

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

As I look back at the beginning of my r/s with as much brutal self reflection as I can muster, I can see that it made me feel really, really good to help this semi-helpless woman that I had grown to love.  She seemed happy with my help.  Her family even appreciated how stable her life started becoming once I came into the picture.  All of that was a HUGE boost to my self esteem. I begin to shape my identity around it... .and spent more and more time focused on her "stuff" than on myself.  Not a healthy way to exist in a r/s.

[Pingo]

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

Truthfully none of my r/ss before my uBPDexh were overly codependent.  Not saying they weren't dysfunctional but I wouldn't have classified myself as the 'rescuer' although I slipped into that role from time to time.

Just before I met my uBPDexh I had a big life-changing event between myself, my mother & my teenage daughter.  Long story short my mother betrayed me, I lost total control of my daughter and my whole identity was in question.  After all, I had based so much of my self-worth in my role as the 'good mother' AND the 'good daughter'.  I definitely was in 'victim' mode, a place I hated!  I had never felt more angry and lost.  Then along comes my exh, he needed me.  He appreciated me.  I slipped into rescue mode very easily.  And out of victim mode.  Now of course we didn't stay there.  He eventually moved into persecutor.  And then he went back and forth between victim-persecutor while I went back and forth between rescuer-victim.  Quite the dance we did for 4 yrs.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm sure you've both read "The Three Faces of the Vicitm" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

From the article:  "A starting gate rescuer is the classic, co-dependent. The SGR tends be enabling, overly protective - the one who wants to "fix it". Rescuing is an addiction that comes from an unconscious need to feel valued. There’s no better way to feel important than to be a savior! Taking care of others may be the Rescuers best game plan for getting to feel worthwhile.

SGR’s usually grow up in families where their dependency needs are not acknowledged. It’s a psychological fact that we treat ourselves the way we were treated as children. The budding Rescuer grows up in an environment where their needs are negated and so tend to treat themselves with the same degree of negligence that they experienced as children. Without permission to take care of themselves, their needs go underground and they turn instead to taking care of others."

Food for thought... .

Truthfully none of my r/ss before my uBPDexh were overly codependent.  Not saying they weren't dysfunctional but I wouldn't have classified myself as the 'rescuer' although I slipped into that role from time to time.

Just before I met my uBPDexh I had a big life-changing event between myself, my mother & my teenage daughter.  Long story short my mother betrayed me, I lost total control of my daughter and my whole identity was in question.  After all, I had based so much of my self-worth in my role as the 'good mother' AND the 'good daughter'.  I definitely was in 'victim' mode, a place I hated!  I had never felt more angry and lost.  Then along comes my exh, he needed me.  He appreciated me.  I slipped into rescue mode very easily.  And out of victim mode.  Now of course we didn't stay there.  He eventually moved into persecutor.  And then he went back and forth between victim-persecutor while I went back and forth between rescuer-victim.  Quite the dance we did for 4 yrs.

I was also in a very vulnerable place in my life when I met my ex... .I think it would be fair to say that I was having an identity crisis as well.  I had belonged to a close knit Christian church in the 10 years previous to meeting my g/f.  I had become unhappy in the church (for reasons too long and complex to explain here) - but leaving would have meant leaving behind all of the close friendships I had developed - and, having moved from where I grew up, they were the only friendships I had.  The thought of leaving was scary... .but then I met my ex and it helped me to break away from the church. She loved me, really seem to need me, and had a daughter that I began to parent.  All of this gave me a sense of identity and purpose at a time that I desperately needed it.

And I, like you, had never been in a rescuing/enabling relationship before this one. But I can see how a "perfect storm" of her needs and my needs came together at that particular time, 8 years ago.

[HappyNihilist]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself. 

This is the complete, full, absolute, beautiful, wonderful truth of the whole crazy mess.

If you are open to listening, you will hear the truths that your self is trying to tell you. It will break your heart and make you feel more raw and shattered and small than you ever thought possible... .and then it will be sublimated into freedom, acceptance, and light.

And the world will keep on turning, just as it always did, but you will never be the same. 

[jhkbuzz]

I know there's definitely something here that I need to sort out. My struggle is that it feels like the closer I get to understanding, the closer I am to putting my finger on it, the more elusive it seems to be.  I feel like I'm tentatively approaching the obvious, if that makes any sense... .

I know this EXACT feeling.  When I finally do put my finger on it, I suspect it will feel like the the biggest ":)UH!" moment in the world!  Like, "how did I not see that/figure that out?"!  And, although I'm not completely sure about this, my sense is that it will be the very thing that sets me free.

I don't mean to be a bummer here... .but I think the "thing" that you're trying to put your finger on is actually something that you are hiding from yourself. 

This is the complete, full, absolute, beautiful, wonderful truth of the whole crazy mess.

If you are open to listening, you will hear the truths that your self is trying to tell you. It will break your heart and make you feel more raw and shattered and small than you ever thought possible... .and then it will be sublimated into freedom, acceptance, and light.

And the world will keep on turning, just as it always did, but you will never be the same. 

Thank you for this.

My fear of uncovering 'whatever it is' is now less than my fear of living with the emotional pain I've been in for the past six months... .I want to heal.

But you want to hear something perplexing?  There is a small part of me that is afraid of the healing, because once it comes I know that I will look at my ex and realize the bond between us has been completely severed.  I will see her as just another person that I used to know, without all the intense emotionality that I once connected to her.  And I think that makes me sad because it will be the final, irrevocable goodbye.

Strange, no?

[Grey Kitty]

Here's a question for you... .all of you rescuers.

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

Consider: You wouldn't keep doing it if it wasn't 'working' for you in some way or other!

[eyvindr]

I think about this question all the time, in the hope of gaining insight.

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

The easy answer -- the one that comes to mind without even needing to think about it -- is control, a sense of things moving from disorder and chaos to peace and stability. That's what I bring to these relationships -- and it's what seemed to be so valued in the early phases. I was led to believe -- correction, I allowed myself to believe my partners when they told me that I brought them something they'd been looking for, and lacking -- that sense of everything being ok. Which certainly seems like a good thing.

Let me add -- if the scenario I was presented with had been more accurate (like, if these people had shown me that one hour they were frantically working on building a foundation, their minds single-mindedly focused on achieving a positive goal, only to be followed the next hour by jumping in their car and repeatedly ramming into all of the support beams they'd just spent an hour setting, and then crying about the mess, and then ranting about the reasons that it happened), I wouldn't have offered help and support. I can spot a sinking ship when I see one -- if it's sinking, and not being artificially suspended in the water by some sort of unseen temporary flotation device!

What feels comfortable? Not much, really. More like familiar. I've mentioned before, I'm the oldest of 8 kids. I was raised to look out for other people, to think of others before myself, to pay attention to what people who may not be aware of what they need (children) may actually need, to protect, to set an example. All of that stuff is normal for me -- but I recognize it for what it is, I don't necessarily enjoy it. But when a situation calls for it, I can do it. It comes naturally to me. I don't seek out situations where I can be helpful -- they just sometimes happen. I don't avoid them, but I don't go out of my way to find them. Example -- the other morning, I was on my way to a meeting. It was cold, it had snowed and the sidewalks hadn't been shoveled yet. I saw a person walking down a path with a pair of crutches -- but I'd already kind of driven past them before my brain had sorted out what was going on, and I didn't have any time to spare on the way to my meeting. I was conscious of the possibility that I might be able to assist them, but I was aware that they seemed to be ok, and that it wasn't my duty to help them. Had I been in a position to offer them a ride, I would have -- but I wasn't, and I didn't, and I don't feel badly about it.

[billypilgrim]

What do YOU get out of being in a r/s where you are the rescuer?

I have realized that I derived a lot of my self worth through providing and taking care of her.  I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.  How can the helper actually need help?  

What about it feels 'comfortable' or 'normal' to you, and how far back can you find that feeling/experience?

It goes back to my NPD/alcoholic grandfather.  The patriarch of our family.  Manipulative.  Controlling.  Abusive (physically and emotionally).  These behaviors that I now see as crazy were normal and familiar to me.  Things were way too comfortable, way too quickly.  And while it feels great at the time, it's not anything that is built to last.  Hence the large number of missed red flags, though to be fair, I caught some.  I just usually excused them or explained them away.  Which probably explains how I've dated not one but two clusterbs, I married the second one.  

But I've got this figured out.  To me the tough part wasn't coming to this realization but changing behavior and changing my natural instinct.  Feelings are fickle.  They are slow to catch up to what you know and worse, they are stubborn.  They don't always listen to what we know, which makes changing things that come naturally so very difficult.  How do I learn to derive self worth from within rather than through helping, rescuing, or providing for others?  How do I learn to not allow guilt or feelings of not doing enough run my life?  How do I become less self critical so that I don't automatically assume responsibility for things that are not my fault or responsibility?  How do I stand up for myself against behaviors that most would find intolerable?   How do I put myself first?  These are the sorts of questions that I'm wrestling with.  Some days are easy, some days are tough and discouraging.  

But I think it boils down to the fact that I'm just one person.  Other people's ills are not my problems.  And there's nothing wrong with me feeling that way.

[jhkbuzz]

I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.  How can the helper actually need help?  

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

[eyvindr]

Why not? It's the Golden Rule, isn't it? And from any angle, it does make sense -- treat others as you wish to be treated. Pretty consistent across all major belief systems.

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

I get frustrated with the self-analysis side of this healing process, because judging from the bulk of the literature out there and the thousands of posts shared in here, it seems like when you're in a r-ship with a partner with some kind of personality disorder, all bets are off.

For the most part, I see good, open-minded, well-intentioned loving partners here who just wound up with troubled partners. So often, it seems to keep boiling down primarily to one thing: If the person we thought we were with really was who they presented themselves to be, the relationship would have worked. But they weren't who they pretended to be. And I don't know if they did that intentionally or unconsciously -- I'm pretty convinced it's a mixture of both. I don't think most of them are evil, I think all of them are sick, some to a greater deal than others. Sometimes I think the best way out of this is to chalk it up to life and just move on.

[Grey Kitty]

For the most part, I see good, open-minded, well-intentioned loving partners here who just wound up with troubled partners. So often, it seems to keep boiling down primarily to one thing: If the person we thought we were with really was who they presented themselves to be, the relationship would have worked.

I'm not buying it. (This is the PI board, we get to probe deeply and challenge you)

You describe it as if it was bad luck. Once, I'd believe. Twice, I dunno. Three times? Not likely. Four times, without having a single significant relationship someone who was emotionally healthy. Nuh-Uh.

You are choosing to get involved with women like these. You are pretending that it isn't so at the beginning, but that is just part of your pattern.

If the woman was really emotionally healthy and normal... .evidence says you wouldn't be interested in her.

And further... .conjecture here... .whatever it is about you that drives you toward women like this... .probably makes women who are emotionally healthy and normal decide that they aren't interested in you either.

People tend to form relationships with somebody at a similar level of differentiation and a similar level of emotional/mental health. Even if one of the two appears to be more healthy/functional than the other.

Until you see YOUR role in these dysfunctional relationships, and change it, you are not likely to have a significantly better one.

[jhkbuzz]

Why not? It's the Golden Rule, isn't it? And from any angle, it does make sense -- treat others as you wish to be treated. Pretty consistent across all major belief systems.

Perhaps because the helper is giving the things they are, in actuality, hoping to receive.

The issue isn't so much about treating another person the way you want to be treated... .that is a healthy, life affirming, love-filled way to conduct a relationship if BOTH people are living by the golden rule.  No argument with that.

The real issue is of IDENTITY:

I have realized that I derived a lot of my self worth through providing and taking care of her.  I needed to be needed in order to feel like I had value.  Which is probably why her leaving hurt so bad.  I didn't just lose my wife, I lost my purpose.  Or at least what I had come to learn was my purpose. I felt listless, adrift at sea with no sails and no one around to hear me call for help.

No one should so completely 'lose' their identity in someone else.  

And no judgement from me; I did it too.  But the more time that goes by the more unhealthy I recognize it to be.

[eyvindr]

Good thoughts, here.

Grey -- appreciate your feedback, as always. I think you may be a little off on your def of the PI boards, though -- they're about each of us probing deeply and challenging ourselves. Sure, we should ask questions -- they keep things moving, and they keep those of us who are trying here to uncover the underlying factors that have led us into and out of these challenging relationship from lapsing into rumination or, worse, from undermining our own realizations. Because sometimes it's as easy to talk yourself out of a good thought or idea as it is to talk yourself into a bad one.

Or, in other words, you don't have to buy it. Not important to me. I have to buy it. We get to ask each other questions, not to decide whether or not each others answers are "correct."

Back to looking for my role.

[eyvindr]

Continuing to make progress. Wanted to compile some excerpts from threads that have led me to more clarity on why I'm attracted to troubled people, and why I've stayed far beyond the point when the proverbial writing on the r-ship walls was the first thing I saw every day. Mainly want to keep all of the stuff in my own search in more or less one place.

glaciercats --

Sorry to hear you're going through this. You just described classic "splitting black" behavior:

I was wondering if people suffering from BPD actually believe their own lies?  It seems like they tell so many.  From little white lies to huge painful lies... .

It's like she has no perception of what's real and what's imaginary.  She has made members of her family and past friends and partners out to be these horrible people.  She is so convincing with her stories and when you look into her eyes it really looks like she believes these things have happened to her.  It's scary really.

Deep down she really seems to have a good heart, but I can not believe anything that she has ever told me unless I witnessed it first hand.  This has really done so much damage to me.  I am trying to repair myself one day at a time!

And that last bit, where you feel that you've adopted some of the dysfunction, we refer to as "fleas." (Not the best term, but it gets the point across.) Here's another example of that --

I feel like my mind is totally warped now.  Exactly like the Twilight Zone!  Even after everything I went through I can't stop worrying about her.  Deep down under all of these demons she really does have a good heart.  I so wish she would seek medical treatment for this. But I can no longer be her doormat no matter how much I care.

I feel ya. I feel the same way about my ex -- she has the capacity to be a great partner. Her dad and I were talking once, during a bipolar episode, and he said, "It's a shame. Except for the mental illness, she would be a gem." It's just sad.

enlighten me makes a very good observation:

where they unplanned or just not planned by you?



One thing I found with my exes is that if they want something they can go to great lengths to get it. My ex wife was supposedly on the pill but I caught her after sex with her feet up against the wall trying to fall pregnant.

During my break-up periods with my ex, I witnessed her share such a wide array of nonsense that it made my head spin. From slightly rewritten bits of our personal history, to outright fabrications included solely to bolster her "Victim Princess" image, to incredibly hurtful revisions of some actual happy things that we did together, cast in a dark and ugly light. She essentially attacked even the beautiful parts of our relationship -- nothing was sacred. Absolute scarred earth policy.

As I learned more about this illness, and heard others sharing their stories, I began to better understand the whole "painting black" thing. Helped me to understand that, as enlighten me points out above -- sometimes your role in what you think is a 2-person discussion is really overstated. We assume when we're talking to our partner -- particularly about important life choices -- that we're actually involved. But often I think my ex had her own ideas, and regardless of what I said, if she didn't agree with me, she'd stick to her "plan" regardless of what I thought, said, or indicated was important to me. Very often it felt like she just took for granted that she knew better, and knew best, for both of us -- which is also not uncommon in people with PDs, a delusional sense of grandeur. My ex was stuck on being a know-it-all -- really to an annoying point. And, if she had any doubts as to whether I'd believe outright something she needed me to believe, she'd automatically include statements like "You can ask anyone," "Three therapists have all agreed with me on this... ." "Any woman would agree... ." and, my all-time favorite, "You can call my doctor yourself and ask her if you don't believe me." Seriously annoying.

songbook -- this is terrific:

Deep down, we do all have hearts, minds, and spirit.

We each have chances to rise above our problems, too.

Disordered or not. Handicapped or not. Etc.

Many do not face themselves until there's real adversity.

But those who do can overcome even the worst of it.

With help or not, it's on each of us to take whichever steps.

My now-ex has every positive possibility available to her.

Her pains and fears have warped her own reality most of all.

All I can do is wish her the best and let go. The rest is up to her.

[charred]

Except for the damage from mom, this totally resonated with me. It's like, unless there's some underlying pain or trauma, I don't "feel" a connection. WHY? So, if someone's normal, and they've had a relatively peaceful, safe life, free from exposure to damaging emotional episodes -- in other words, exactly the kind of person my brain keeps telling me I want to end up with -- I'm wired to not find them at all appealing? wth? What would make me unconsciously avoid the very people I feel I could be happy with?

Excellent book on this subject called "A general theory of love"... .you won't like the theory.

Couple observations... a baby's first experience of "love"... is whatever the r/s is between its parents... .and mostly what it gets from mom's behavior.

Later, that template of what love is, filters out non-mom/non-parent relating people... they seem blah, but sparks fly when someone gets past your filters.

So... with a BPD r/s, you have someone that has issues, and they start out mirroring you, love-bombing and taking so much interest in you... hanging on every word even... that it works to really develop a strong attachment to them. The strongest kind, a primary attachment. Consciously... you see them as your soul mate, your dream girl... but you react to them like the child in a parent/child r/s. Put them on a pedestal, think they can do no wrong (till that notion is beat out of you by the r/s)... and question yourself rather than their behavior any time its baffling. A breakup is devastating, like the death of a parent (but no one understands... they see that you finally split with that flake, why don't you go out ... maybe you will get lucky)... but your grieving a loss way out of proportion to the r/s.

I took the above theory (which is true and led me to realize Freud was brilliant)... and just saw the part about the BPD person doing bonding a certain way... ignoring that I was looking for someone like my mother psychologically.  My mother, had her mother die when she was 5, leaving her as the oldest ... to raise her two younger sisters. Her father dropped her off at her grandparents... and as a result she was traumatized, told to be quiet and ended up really being a waif BPD. So... in my case, I am looking for and responding to pwBPD, more than any others. Father is malignant NPD... I respond to those a bit, but not as much. Learned that if you come from a family with some PD like issues, chances are about 95% that you were affected by it, and it will play out in r/s issues. Especially when it comes to who you feel crazy sparks for. I found I cannot pursue anyone I have the instant love at first sight reaction too with sparks. For years my friends used to try to figure out if I attracted crazy women, or if I had normal ones and drove them crazy. It was the former. Magnet for disorder.

Wish I could say I am the only one like that, but ... if your parents had issues, you are likely to end up with same ones... we absorb about 70% of their makeup... and that can be a lot of baggage.

[eyvindr]

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

OC --

Thank much for elaborating.  Again, wow --

It's the "raising from a child" aspect that seems to be key. In my case, all I ever knew was pain ... .so today, 60 years later, all I vividly "see" (regarding women) is pain. If you are "normal" - I don't know what I'm looking at ... .there's no "connection." I'm guessing that if my mother was loving and caring and huggy, I would see THAT when I looked at a woman - but I don't know what that's like.

Just wow. This very much could be it for me -- I "get" this on a direct level. Trying to determine specifically the source. I suffered no abuse or neglect from my mom, but I don't recall her has being "huggy" when we were kids -- likely because there were just too many of us. Never questioned that I was loved by either parents, but I can see where its a more kind of practical love, kind of taken for granted. It helps me see that where, on my end, I've consistently been told by partners something along the lines of "you're inscrutable" -- and I've even argued that it's overwhelming to feel like I have to blatantly demonstrate my love all the time -- often at a moment when I'm feeling both present, committed and warm towards my partner.

But I'm starting, I think, to piece together this "image" thing -- feels more like an archetype glitch, if you will. I tell myself I want a smart, secure, independent, happy woman, but I don't know what she looks like, because my mother -- loving and kind as she is -- was also insecure, dependent on her family and then my father, and often unhappy. So, despite their outward behaviors, the women I gravitate to in r-ships are the ones who I "recognize" as fitting the archetype that my psyche has created for "woman," based on my mother.

Can this be correct? It SURE as hell would solve my utter confusion over why I would be picking these women without any serious trauma in my own background!

[eyvindr]

This helps me a lot --

When our emotions are not validated, we tend to stop using those parts of ourselves that we need in life to help us make good choices. If your family of origin was not focused on how you felt, you might have trouble identifying a whole range of emotions that healthy people use to create genuine intimacy and connection with others.

I grew up in a household where the "love" for each other was accepted -- but also taken for granted, in that there wasn't a lot of demonstrative actions, to my knowledge. I do think, more and more, that this has played into my r-ships. Thanks for sharing, livedandlearned.