New Beginning 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

Here is the previous topic... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240366.0

Can you clarify what you will and won't pay for... .

If you guys have a good couple weeks... .will you purchase groceries?

Will you purchase groceries or spend on other things if she is being obvious about "blowing" her money.

With boundaries and "new decisions"... very important to be clear... .especially in your own mind.

    Good question.  I won't pay her bills.  I consider anything that is bills as rent, car, electric, phone, gas, etc.  I won't pay for car repairs, medical, or any surprise costs associated with those.  I provide incredible insurance that saves her about 1000 dollars a month going forward and to me, that is already going above and beyond considering she wanted this separation.  

    I don't want to sound enabling, but groceries are something different and that depends on the circumstances I guess.  If she blew her money, absolutely not.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

One thing I have a hard time doing when dealing with my wife is not dealing in logic.  I try to understand how she justifies in her mind doing some of the crap she's done.  She knows how it feels to be taken advantage of because she was screwed over horribly by her ex husband, and not just with child support.  During their divorce, he would not sign the papers to sell their home and it went into foreclosure.  It seems to me that the method to her madness the last 6 months is survival in that one particular moment (silent treatment to get me to pay a bill, throwing a temper tantrum, etc), not caring about what happens after that or the consequences from her actions.  I know there were times she would do this before she split, but man.  I still have a hard time with how quick she went downhill.  It was almost like it was overnight.  I'm starting to see how bad her splitting/dissociation have become at times.

[formflier]

 

I like your answers to what you will or won't pay... .I'm going to continue to push for further clarification... .so that things are clear in your head... .ahead of time.

Why?

IMO... .she is using two main "weapons" (here goes FF the military guy... .) against you.

The silent treatment/NC.

The "money thing".

If I asked you for her top two "weapons"... .do you think you would have the same list?

NC... .that is her choice... .and... .I don't see much you can do there.  When you do get contact... .do as good as you can... .and when she decides NC or LC... or whatever... ."don't chase".   Anyone think of other options that Maroon has for the NC thing?

Money:  It's clear what she wants... .you pay when she wants... .no strings attached.  We all agree that is not healthy (I think... .anyone disagree).   I think she understands that the gig is up... .and is going through various "extinction bursts" to see where the chinks in your armor are... .

So... .if you read the lessons... .the key is to not have chinks... .to not intermittently reinforce.

We also know she will keep trying various angles.  The last angle was "change your gift... give me the money... ."

So... .I think we should work through various other things that may come up... .so that when they do... .you can calmly use the tools and move along.

Groceries.  She has been clear that its her house... .her castle... .her domain.  I would suggest you go over and partake in her stuff... invite her to your place.  In her place... .her groceries... .her stuff.  If she is low.  Enjoy what is there... .don't complain.  Somehow in there if this ever happens... ."I"ve got some pizzas at my place we could make... .do you guys want to go over"  If she shuts this down... .stay there... enjoy an evening without.

I would say your limit would be buying something for "one meal"... .if an agreement is reached on another meal at your place. 

Thoughts?

The key is not to "win" the argument... .but to "defuse" her weapon... .her bomb.  After it stops working for a while... .she may drop it all together.

If a couple evenings without are what is takes to defuse the weapon... is that worth it?

I'm sure there are other ways to look at this... .thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

I like your answers to what you will or won't pay... .I'm going to continue to push for further clarification... .so that things are clear in your head... .ahead of time.

Why?

IMO... .she is using two main "weapons" (here goes FF the military guy... .) against you.

The silent treatment/NC.

The "money thing".

If I asked you for her top two "weapons"... .do you think you would have the same list?

Yes, I would have the same list.

NC... .that is her choice... .and... .I don't see much you can do there.  When you do get contact... .do as good as you can... .and when she decides NC or LC... or whatever... ."don't chase".   Anyone think of other options that Maroon has for the NC thing?

Money:  It's clear what she wants... .you pay when she wants... .no strings attached.  We all agree that is not healthy (I think... .anyone disagree).   I think she understands that the gig is up... .and is going through various "extinction bursts" to see where the chinks in your armor are... .

I agree that is why she is going through various extinction bursts... .

Groceries.  She has been clear that its her house... .her castle... .her domain.  I would suggest you go over and partake in her stuff... invite her to your place. 

I have gone to her place, she has just never come to mine.  I have invited, and my son has invited her.  She did say yes, but when it came down to it, she had an excuse why she couldn't.  I think she is afraid I would do the same thing to her that she has done to me (tell me to leave).  The Bible says, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... ."

In her place... .her groceries... .her stuff.  If she is low.  Enjoy what is there... .don't complain.  Somehow in there if this ever happens... ."I"ve got some pizzas at my place we could make... .do you guys want to go over"  If she shuts this down... .stay there... enjoy an evening without.

     Didn't really understand this one.  WHat do you mean if she shuts this down?  I have offered to buy stuff to replace her stuff and even bought stuff for meals to help also since I consider myself and my kids more mouths to feed. 

     I have offered to cook dinner at my place several times.  I have asked her to come over and it just be the two of us so that we can just have us time.  She has declined on all counts (until last weekend when it ultimately didn't happen).  This I don't get.  maybe she can't handle that I have my own place, doing fine without her, and she can't handle that?  I think the men in her life before me (dad and ex husband) either used her till she had enough or couldn't make it without her and she never expected anything different from me.

The key is not to "win" the argument... .but to "defuse" her weapon... .her bomb.  After it stops working for a while... .she may drop it all together.

If a couple evenings without are what is takes to defuse the weapon... is that worth it?

Are you asking if a couple of evenings without her to diffuse the bomb would make it worth it?  If so, absolutely.  I can't go on like this anymore where I do nothing in hopes she "comes to her senses".  That is sticking my head in the sand.  It is also insanity... .Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

Very good dissection of my long... .rambling post about her weapons... .I see exactly where I lost you.

My idea... .about groceries... only buy them for your place... not hers.

Going without... .means if you are at her place... .and she "realizes" that she is out... that you offer to bring her over to your place to cook for her.  If she declines... stay at her place and be happy eating pretzels... .don't use "your wallet" to fix her "issue" of being out of food.

The idea here is to "balance out" the r/s... .she is trying to keep it unbalanced... and keep you on her turf.  Also trying to get in your wallet.

I hope this makes sense...

Maybe I'll have more time later to explain more... .I see that I said it oddly the first time.

Not sure if I did better this time... .

[KateCat]

MaroonLiquid,

I've read quite a few of your descriptions of the difficult situation you're in with your wife, and I am very much impressed by the idea now discussed by formflier.

On this forum advisors often use the concept of "keeping your side of the street clean." Or understanding clearly our own boundaries so that we can separate "her side of the street" / from "your side of the street."

So what formflier seems to be doing here is making this literal, in a way that promises (I think) to be effective. Eventually, of course.  :)Not right away, because your wife is determined and willful.

A few months ago you were all over "her side of the street," with commingled financial obligations and daily offers of helping her out and getting together, on her terms. [I apologize if my memory is not correct, but I think you were really chasing her hard, and really being rebuffed and taken advantage of.] Now you stand separate for the most part (and good for you for providing medical insurance for her kids), firmly, and in your own space.

The open offer of sharing the bounty of "your space" now seems to me to be the crowning piece, possibly, of resolving this puzzle. An open invitation is something you can keep open, for a much longer period of time, than the type of rebuffed invitations you have been offering in the past. Offering simple, profound hospitality, rather than waiting to run over to clean up her side of the street seems very powerful to me. It also has the simplicity and elegance of not being wasteful.

If her respect and appreciation for you don't grow with that offering, then, well . . . . I don't know.

formflier may have other thoughts about this idea, but these are ones that sprang to my mind.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .the street analogy works much better than the way I was trying to say it.

I was going for keeping things separate... .yet remaining generous... .(getting best of both worlds). 

Generosity is on your terms... .much like gift giving.  She still retains option to reject.

[KateCat]

Generosity is on your terms... .much like gift giving.  She still retains option to reject.

I like this. A lot. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Very good advice FF and Kate!  I see what yall are saying and it makes complete sense.  My wife texted me and told me that our daughter "changed her mind" about softball and asked if it was still possible for her to play on the softball team that I coach again this season (She knew it was because I told her so last weekend).   . Anyway, I responded, "Awesome!  I'm glad!  Of course she can as I don't turn in my freezes to the league till next week.  Looking forward to it!"  She hasn't responded and I didn't either as I answered her question and let her have her space.

[MaroonLiquid]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

[formflier]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

My take... .you've got your answer.  Turn in the freezes and expect the daughter to be there.

If you make it to big a deal... or keep bringing it up... .she may use it as a "tool" on you.

What is you plan?  Do you think it needs to be talked about again?

[MaroonLiquid]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

My take... .you've got your answer.  Turn in the freezes and expect the daughter to be there.

If you make it to big a deal... or keep bringing it up... .she may use it as a "tool" on you.

What is you plan?  Do you think it needs to be talked about again?

No not at all.  I figured that her saying last week that she would enroll her elsewhere was a way to get a rise out of me.  I am just surprised that more communication didn't open up from there. 

[KateCat]

Seems to me that you are showing strength, grace and generosity. So now you just continue to do this good-but-hard work and prepare for a journey of discovery about your wife and your relationship. . . . What a mystery!

What isn't a mystery is what a great family man you are. 

[formflier]

 

Mystery is an interesting... .and appropriate way to put it.  Lots of stuff gets figured out... lots doesn't.

I think those on the staying board tend to have to be ok with mystery.  Many of us have no idea how we are going to get to a "better place" in our r/s... .or when that will happen... in some cases... .we wonder "if".

But... .we choose to accept the mystery and press forward with strength... .with love... .and grace.

Grace for us... .and hopefully enough empathy to pass on that same grace to our partners... .that are battling something that they probably don't understand either... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Seems to me that you are showing strength, grace and generosity. So now you just continue to do this good-but-hard work and prepare for a journey of discovery about your wife and your relationship. . . . What a mystery!

What isn't a mystery is what a great family man you are. 

Thanks KateCat!  I truly love my wife.

Mystery is an interesting... .and appropriate way to put it.  Lots of stuff gets figured out... lots doesn't.

I think those on the staying board tend to have to be ok with mystery.  Many of us have no idea how we are going to get to a "better place" in our r/s... .or when that will happen... in some cases... .we wonder "if".

But... .we choose to accept the mystery and press forward with strength... .with love... .and grace.

Grace for us... .and hopefully enough empathy to pass on that same grace to our partners... .that are battling something that they probably don't understand either... .

I do choose the mystery and choose to show grace to her. 

Today I'm relaxing which is nice.  I've noticed my wife has ramped up her posts on Facebook the last 24 hours.  She does this right before she starts making contact with me again. I do miss her but not terribly anymore as I'm getting used to this cycle.  Even though she texted me first on Wednesday about softball, I haven't texted back as I'm trying to give her space and keep my side of the street clean. 

[KateCat]

I'm very impressed with your strength and growth.  Do you think there's any chance that your wife could maintain a pretty stable and positive image of you if all "money issues" somehow disappeared? (Not saying I have any idea how to do that in a marriage with kids, but just wondering if all issues have seemed to be linked somehow to her sense that men will want to take financial advantage of her in devious ways.)

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm very impressed with your strength and growth.  Do you think there's any chance that your wife could maintain a pretty stable and positive image of you if all "money issues" somehow disappeared? (Not saying I have any idea how to do that in a marriage with kids, but just wondering if all issues have seemed to be linked somehow to her sense that men will want to take financial advantage of her in devious ways.)

Yes I do believe she can.  I don't know why she projects those feelings on to me, because I never used her.  I have always had a job (unlike her ex), and have now proven I can take care of myself and live without her (never lived in my own before this).  I don't know how that perception that ALL men use her goes away.  It started with her dad who only calls her when he needs her to do something "impossible", continued with her ex husband who has never paid  child support and her former pastor where she led worship where she was never offered any compensation for ministry (didn't really expect it, but always said it would have been nice to offer). 

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted my wife to see if our daughter wanted to go to a softball clinic tomorrow and my wife said no because they are all sick.  I validated that and asked if she needed anything or wanted me to come take care of them and she said, "No thanks."  I said, "You're welcome and if she changes her mind don't hesitate to ask."  I offered.  That's all I can do.  Not sure why she didn't tell me.  Strange.  Oh well.

[MaroonLiquid]

So I checked on my wife to see how everyone was feeling and she texted back and said not good.  I validated that and asked if there was anything she needed and she said no but asked if I wanted to go to the store with her.  I said sure and we went.  We bought some stuff separately and helped her find the stuff she needed.  We had fun.  I asked how her mom and sister were doing and she said she hasn't talked to her sister since the day of her surgery and her mom since she sent her to her sisters a couple of days before her surgery.   She said that her sister must have been poisoned by her mom.  I validated her with that and things went really well today.  I asked if she wanted to go see a movie with me this week and she said, "Yes, I would like that."  She has started a new "eating healthy" deal (does this every year  ).  After we went shopping I came back to my apartment and she went home.  I told her I would FaceTime her this evening and she said that would be nice.  All in all it was a good day.  I'm curious what really happened with her mom before she left.  I wonder if her mom started to figure out it wasn't me that was the major problem and called her on it.  I know what my wife said (said her mom called the kids lazy) but... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Can someone try and explain something to me.  Since last night, my wife is acting "different".  I have seen this behavior before, therefore it isn't a big deal and think it has to do with splitting, dissociation or both?  Anyway, while my wife and I were shopping, she would hug me and tell me she loved me.  I do notice some conversations she doesn't realize, or remember we had.  On text, she is acting almost guarded.  Not rude at all, but "guarded" (not hiding anything "guarded" if that makes sense) is the only way I can explain it.  Almost like she is protecting herself "guarded".  She wasn't this way the three weeks over Christmas when we spent a lot of time together.  She has been this way before after a pretty big dysregulation.  Thoughts?

[formflier]

 

Can you cut and paste some texts... .

Send us a "guarded one"... .and one that is not guarded.

Offhand... .I'm not sure.

Usually... .their communications and the way the communicate are a "window" to their emotions.  I don't think this is conscious on their part.

[MaroonLiquid]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

[123Phoebe]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

I would say there was no need for a response.  You spoke from your heart, the way you feel about it.

How would you have liked her to respond? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

I would say there was no need for a response.  You spoke from your heart, the way you feel about it.

How would you have liked her to respond? 

I see what you are saying.  I guess I'm being overly sensitive.  That's what I figured... .

[123Phoebe]

I see what you are saying.  I guess I'm being overly sensitive.  That's what I figured... .

I wouldn't go as far as to say that you're being overly sensitive.  You're sensitive to this sort of thing, it's okay.  Acceptance of self is awesome!

[MaroonLiquid]

I've always been sensitive to people being upset with me.  I get frustrated with myself because I tend to ask even if they aren't.  I hate that part of me, but am working on it. 

[formflier]

 

Do you ask if they are upset with you?

[MaroonLiquid]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

[123Phoebe]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

I hear ya, Maroon!

Ugh, I'm pretty sensitive to people's moods.  Where the problem lies is when I suspect they are upset with me for some reason.  If I know I didn't do anything wrong, then why automatically assume that their mood has something to do with me?  I had to figure that one out on my own.

Bottom line, noticing when another person is upset and acknowledging their feelings can be very validating. Thinking that it has something to do with me (taking it personally) is something else entirely... .

[formflier]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

My take is this is a bit of a leading question... .

For instance... in my past I was sort of like an EMT (paramedic)... .

We were trained to never ask if this "hurts"... .that was leading.

"how does this feel"... while poking... .is usually better.

So... "how are you doing"

or "how do you feel about me being here... "  or about what you had to say... .

Make sense?  Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

My take is this is a bit of a leading question... .

For instance... in my past I was sort of like an EMT (paramedic)... .

We were trained to never ask if this "hurts"... .that was leading.

"how does this feel"... while poking... .is usually better.

So... "how are you doing"

or "how do you feel about me being here... "  or about what you had to say... .

Make sense?  Thoughts?

That makes sense.  Definitely less "unsure of myself".  That's from my childhood... .Wonderful childhood... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

So the last couple of days have been good.  My wife has been sick since last week, therefore we haven't seen each other except on FaceTime.  I've offered a few times to help take care of her and the kids and she has declined so I left it at that.  She is pretty sick and is going to the doctor today.  I have noticed over the last year or so her health is deteriorating (2 skin cancer surgeries, a surgery to remove a 10 cm cyst from her female organs and is getting sick quite a bit).  She never used to get sick, so I am worried about her in that respect.  The funny thing is now I never get sick.  Strange.  Anyway, I feel like we are in a little bit of a limbo without T, so I'm trying to figure that out.  Not a huge deal, just that whole 2 steps forward and one step back.     

[formflier]

[ Anyway, I feel like we are in a little bit of a limbo without T, so I'm trying to figure that out.  Not a huge deal, just that whole 2 steps forward and one step back.     [/quote]
I thought she had agreed to go... .again.

Remember... .make the appointment and go.  If she changes her mind... .you go.

[Grey Kitty]

Not surprised that you are getting sick less and she is getting sick more.

I'll bet that your life is a lot more manageable now that you aren't living with her.

It is clear that her life is getting farther out of control without you enabling her as much as you used to.

Physical health gets worse with more stress, and better with less stress.

[MaroonLiquid]

Not surprised that you are getting sick less and she is getting sick more.

I'll bet that your life is a lot more manageable now that you aren't living with her.

It is clear that her life is getting farther out of control without you enabling her as much as you used to.

Physical health gets worse with more stress, and better with less stress.

Makes sense... .

Quick update... .I got into a car accident (in the van she had before keeping my car) with 4 of my kids on Saturday and the guy that hit us totalled the van (thinking this is a BIG blessing in disguise to get rid of it and get the car situation taken care of).  Except for some minor stuff, we walked away and am thankful for that.  I have been in some pain and my wife almost dysregulated yesterday when I wasn't acting "chipper".  She asked, "What's wrong?" several times and each time I said, "Nothing, just in some pain".  Later, I guess she got tired of it and asked me if I needed her to take me home.  I said, "no." and she asked why I was being a jerk and sitting in another room (staying with her to share our other vehicle until I get my rental today)?  I said, "I'm not, I'm trying to get something done for softball for this evening and will be done in about 10 minutes."  She said, "This is why we no longer live together".  I didn't respond and just let it go.  A few minutes later (I guess she calmed down) she asked if I could help with dinner while she went to take our son to work.  I said, "Sure".  She left and came back and everthing was fine.  I went outside and was in quite a bit of pain at the moment and told her that there was nothing wrong with me today other than being in pain.  She said that next time I should tell her that (I DID, LOL).  I just said ok and went on.  Everything after that was fine and we had a good night.  Our oldest son is actually starting to converse and joke with me know so that's good.  I have made an effort to get into his world.

Saturday, before the accident, we were over at her house (my kids and I) and the kids were being rambunctious (it puts her on edge and she gets irritated real easily with that).  They knocked something over and as I was getting up to get something, she yelled at me, "Can you please parent the dam- kids?"  And then told the girls to go to separate rooms.  She left to run an errand and her youngest daughter told my youngest (both involved in knocking it over) that she only gets like that when you're here.  I let that go as I didn't know how to take it, and also understand it probably isn't true.  I know that when all 6 kids are together she gets frustrated pretty easily.  I told them to calm down and when my wife got back, she asked them if they were going to listen to us and they said yes.  Everything was fine after that, but I have learned how to circumvent, and mostly stop dysregulations in their path.  I also know that all can't be avoided.  But the thing is, it is getting better.

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

Have you been checked out good at Dr about the pain?  Did the other guy get a ticket?  Any issues proving fault?

Hey... .you know me... I love talking tactics and small details...

In the future... .I would recommend you clearly say how you feel and leave out any modifiers or negatives... I think "normals" pick up on those ok.  pwBPD are more likely to hear what they want.

So... ."how are you feeling"... .  Maroon... "I am in pain... "  Then... if you need to follow up with... "I'm working through it... doing best I can"

As opposed to... ."nothing is wrong... .except for the pain... ." 

This is a bit of a "trigger" for me... .really bugs me in meetings (I'm an executive type)... .when I asked someone if they have anything else to say... .and they say... ."NO... .except xyz... " 

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

Have you been checked out good at Dr about the pain?  Did the other guy get a ticket?  Any issues proving fault?

Hey... .you know me... I love talking tactics and small details...

In the future... .I would recommend you clearly say how you feel and leave out any modifiers or negatives... I think "normals" pick up on those ok.  pwBPD are more likely to hear what they want.

So... ."how are you feeling"... .  Maroon... "I am in pain... "  Then... if you need to follow up with... "I'm working through it... doing best I can"

As opposed to... ."nothing is wrong... .except for the pain... ." 

This is a bit of a "trigger" for me... .really bugs me in meetings (I'm an executive type)... .when I asked someone if they have anything else to say... .and they say... ."NO... .except xyz... " 

Gotcha!  Yes, the other guy's insurance is covering the wreck.  Got my rental car today.  Just a pain dealing with these people.

Anyway, so today, my wife really tried hard to dysregulate and I didn't take the bait.  She was fine and joking around with me until it was time to go pick up my rental car.  I realized her mood change and realized she was starting to feel the abandonment fear of me leaving.  She asked if anyone was the team mom for softball yet.  I said yes, that as usual, my ex wife and one of the other moms offered.  She said, "So your ex wife always makes sure there is no room for me, huh?"  I responded with, I haven't approved it yet if you would like to.  She said, "No, that if no one had stepped up, she would have".  She never wanted to before.  She then proceeded to tell me that when we were at the games that she didn't want me to introduce her as my wife.  I said, "Can you help me to understand why?"  She said because that isn't our situation and that we are estranged.  I responded and said I am sorry you feel that way, however, we are married and we do love each other.  I told  her that we were both on the same page when we made love and talked last night.  I said that we need to get into counseling so we can change that.  She said that she has heard that for seven months and you've made no attempt to change it.  I said I'm sorry you feel that way, however I did make an appointment and you chose not to attend.  I said I will make an appointment tomorrow.  She said, "OK."  She responded and said, "Not the way you love me."  I just said, "OK."  She then said that she doesn't want to have to answer any questions and wants to only be introduced as her daughter's mom.  I said, "ok fine." And changed the subject.  A few minutes later, after getting the car, we got back to the house and she said, "I'm irritated that after all I've done for you the last few days, taking you to work, using my car (loved that one), that you couldn't replace a few simple pickets on my fence."  I responded and said, "Well, the other day, you told me that you asked our son to do, and was supposed to do it before he went to work.  It is upsetting that he didn't, however, I will be glad to take care of it for you.  She said, "It's too late now."    . I said, "OK."  A few minutes later, I asked her, "You seem to be upset with me going back to my apartment this evening, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Oh no, it's quite the opposite actually."  I said, "OK." I asked her if she wanted me to escort her to the meeting she was going to for the kids.  She said, "No, they're my kids and I'll take care of it."  I said, "Ok, I would like to go and be a part."  She responded with, "Well, that's not our situation now is it?"  I said, "It could be." and told her that I would FaceTime her later and that I loved her, kissed her and said I will talk to you after your meeting.  She said ok. 

Bless her heart.  She tried so hard to get me to react negatively and I wouldnt.  i never took the bait.  I was loving, but she was cruel at times and in the past, that stuff would have cut.  But it doesn't anymore because I won't let it.

[formflier]

  I said, "ok fine." And changed the subject. 

Maroon,

Not sure how to high five through the computer... but you are the man!

You know me... .gonna look for something to try and improve... .and the "ok fine" was the only thing I could think of.

It sounds like you agree... .or could.  Maybe "I hear what you are saying... ."  or "I'll consider it... ."... .or "I would... but that would invalidate my feelings for you... ." hmmm... .that last one is complicated...

Dude... .again... nice work!

[MaroonLiquid]

 I said, "ok fine." And changed the subject.  

Maroon,

Not sure how to high five through the computer... but you are the man!

You know me... .gonna look for something to try and improve... .and the "ok fine" was the only thing I could think of.

It sounds like you agree... .or could.  Maybe "I hear what you are saying... ."  or "I'll consider it... ."... .or "I would... but that would invalidate my feelings for you... ." hmmm... .that last one is complicated...

Dude... .again... nice work!

Thanks.  It is taking a lot less restraint now days because I see it for what it is.  I guess I'm back to a short term silent treatment again (she has to see me at softball) because she didn't answer my call last night and hasn't texted me this morning.  I'm not going to text her.  It's comical at this point.  She would rather try and create an argument than just admit the simple truth that she doesn't like me being in a separate household anymore.  WOW... .She might be human!      I feel like sometimes we are playing chess while they are playing charades... .Or maybe just in my case.  I don't even worry about this anymore.  She is the one in such turmoil and not sure if she sees it or if she ignores it.  

[formflier]

 I feel like sometimes we are playing chess while they are playing charades... .

I think you are on to something here... .this is a good way to describe... ."the order to the disorder"...

Take it a step further.  Once you stop playing charades (a childs game)... .and they see that you will only play chess (an adult game... )... .they sort of cave in a play chess... .while grumbling and griping.

Hmmm... I'm going to have to think on this analogy some more... .but I like it

[MaroonLiquid]

 I feel like sometimes we are playing chess while they are playing charades... .

I think you are on to something here... .this is a good way to describe... ."the order to the disorder"...

Take it a step further.  Once you stop playing charades (a childs game)... .and they see that you will only play chess (an adult game... )... .they sort of cave in a play chess... .while grumbling and griping.

Hmmm... I'm going to have to think on this analogy some more... .but I like it

I have figured out that until we "figure out" their disorder, they are playing chess to keep everything their way and hidden, while we are playing charades to "keep the peace".  When we find out about it and change us, we start playing chess to stay one step ahead while my wife is playing charades to keep things hidden from everyone else.  The two people in my wife's corner were her mom and sister and they no longer talk since the blowup with her mom at Christmas.  So the only people she can play charades with are "friends" of hers that are surface people and Facebook friends... .

[Grey Kitty]

 I feel like sometimes we are playing chess while they are playing charades... .

You got this one. Reminds me of another quote:

Don't stoop to their level. If you do, they will fight you there, and beat you with experience 

[MaroonLiquid]

So I was thinking (I know I shouldn't) and realize that my wife is probably upset about all this because her "plan" blew up in her face with me totaling the van.  She thought she would steal my car thinking I would do anything to get my car back and get out from under the van because it was upside down.  And now that I totaled the one she stuck me with, she realizes I'm getting a new vehicle on my own, especially since they came within a few hundred dollars of what we owe.  She hates men relying on her but tried to set up every situation to where they have to.  I won't live that way.

[formflier]

So I was thinking (I know I shouldn't) and realize that my wife is probably upset about all this because her "plan" blew up in her face with me totaling the van.  She thought she would steal my car thinking I would do anything to get my car back and get out from under the van because it was upside down.  And now that I totaled the one she stuck me with, she realizes I'm getting a new vehicle on my own, especially since they came within a few hundred dollars of what we owe.  She hates men relying on her but tried to set up every situation to where they have to.  I won't live that way.

So... .when she "realizes" she wants to be with you... and that you guys should purchase the van jointly... .

Whatever happened with the laptop... .did you get it back?

[MaroonLiquid]

So I was thinking (I know I shouldn't) and realize that my wife is probably upset about all this because her "plan" blew up in her face with me totaling the van.  She thought she would steal my car thinking I would do anything to get my car back and get out from under the van because it was upside down.  And now that I totaled the one she stuck me with, she realizes I'm getting a new vehicle on my own, especially since they came within a few hundred dollars of what we owe.  She hates men relying on her but tried to set up every situation to where they have to.  I won't live that way.

So... .when she "realizes" she wants to be with you... and that you guys should purchase the van jointly... .

Didn't really understand this... .

Whatever happened with the laptop... .did you get it back?

No... .She hasn't yet.  This morning, I asked her to call me about the vehicles.  When she called me, I told her I needed her help.  I told her that I was pre-approved for another car contingent on her taking over the Lexus and putting it into her name alone and told her I needed her to do that.  She said she needed to sit down and look at her finances because she doesn't have any extra money right now and didn't plan on doing anything regarding trading it in on anything until she got her bonus in March.  I said, "Help me to understand how, after I pay my child support, you bring home twice what I do, don't have insurance because I kept you on mine, and haven't had a car note, that you still don't have enough money?"  I did those things for you because I love you, and now, I need your help.  I have told you I can't pay for the Lexus anymore and you have a payment due for this month."  She said that she is trying to make it and take care of her kids and wouldn't have had to if there wasn't a breech in our marriage 7 months ago.  She then brought up that she has been paying the money for the washer and dryer and I have refused to pay that.  I said, "I can only imagine how tough it is on you to deal with those.  The issue is, you can't drive a car for free, with or without me, and I need you to put the Lexus in your name because I have to have a vehcle.  I'm not telling you anything you don't know.  It is now imperative that we do something."  She said, "I will have to sit down and look at my finances and see what I can do.  I can't talk about this anymore now and I need to get back to work."  Click... .And she hung up.  Why will she not do the right thing?  I know the answer, so I don't necessarily need a response.  Just frustrating that I can't get her to move on ANYTHING.

[formflier]

So... .when she "realizes" she wants to be with you... and that you guys should purchase the van jointly... .

What is she suggests you get another "joint" vehicle.  So she can "borrow" it later.  Or if she gives you the lexus back... .and she gets a new one.

Clearly... .calmly ... .think through this now... .so you can respond... .instead of "react" when she brings it up.

She made her choice... .choice... .choices have consequences... .she may or may not be happy with them.


To be clear... my advice is to NEVER again... .own anything jointly with her... regardless of the status of your marriage. 

I've pretty much decided that I am not going to do business with my wife and/or her family again... .it's not about the money.

My wife took our business capital... .distributed some amongst her family because of what she thought was "fair"... .

This was second time that business agreements had been violated... .for me... .it's not about the money... .it's about keeping your word. 

I can't force her to do that... .but I can choose to not do business with her or her family again. 

I also made a choice to not "fight" her over the money.  I did choose to "fight" her over kids and safety issues.

I hope this clarifies where I am coming from... .

There is a little bit of projection from my r/s... .onto yours... .but... .many pwBPD traits seem to have the same "playbook".

Last:  My advice and prediction for the future.  Figure out how to get a car in your name only... .never again send money her way... .unless... .you choose to give her a gift. 

I think if you keep bringing her "doing the right thing" with the car... .she will use it as a weapon.  I hope not... .but be prepared... .

[formflier]

 

Who owns the lexus?  What does the vehicle title say?

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .when she "realizes" she wants to be with you... and that you guys should purchase the van jointly... .

What is she suggests you get another "joint" vehicle.  So she can "borrow" it later.  Or if she gives you the lexus back... .and she gets a new one.

Clearly... .calmly ... .think through this now... .so you can respond... .instead of "react" when she brings it up.

She made her choice... .choice... .choices have consequences... .she may or may not be happy with them.


To be clear... my advice is to NEVER again... .own anything jointly with her... regardless of the status of your marriage.  

I've pretty much decided that I am not going to do business with my wife and/or her family again... .it's not about the money.

My wife took our business capital... .distributed some amongst her family because of what she thought was "fair"... .

This was second time that business agreements had been violated... .for me... .it's not about the money... .it's about keeping your word.  

I can't force her to do that... .but I can choose to not do business with her or her family again.  

I also made a choice to not "fight" her over the money.  I did choose to "fight" her over kids and safety issues.

I hope this clarifies where I am coming from... .

There is a little bit of projection from my r/s... .onto yours... .but... .many pwBPD traits seem to have the same "playbook".

Last:  My advice and prediction for the future.  Figure out how to get a car in your name only... .never again send money her way... .unless... .you choose to give her a gift.  

I think if you keep bringing her "doing the right thing" with the car... .she will use it as a weapon.  I hope not... .but be prepared... .

I see.  We did talk a couple of weeks ago about me taking the Lexus back and buying her another vehicle.  But things have changed a bit... .

Who owns the lexus?  What does the vehicle title say?

We own it jointly.  The lien with our credit union is in both of our names.  I have already thought that she would balk as she has several times in the months past.  I continue to do what is right and she can't bring herself to do it... .

[Grey Kitty]

Take a stand.

You have one joint vehicle that is drivable today.

You have one joint vehicle that is destroyed, and has a value of -$a few hundred. (not drivable).

You are ready to buy a vehicle in your name that is your responsibility, but cannot with the lexus on your credit.

Don't wait for her to make a choice. Tell her that you REFUSE to be joint owner of the lexus with her as of today.

Here's how to enforce that:

Call the insurance company, tell them to cancel the insurance, and that you want a refund for the insurance you paid (up 'till today)

And you will pay nothing more on it, and tell the company holding the loan that the car is no longer insured, and that you recommend that they repossess it because it is uninsured and isn't going to be getting any more payments from you, and you don't expect your wife to make them either.

... .that leaves two options for her:

Put the lexus in her name and take over everything.

Give the lexus to you, and find her own transportation.

(Or do nothing, and have her car likely repossessed)

The clear stand is this: YOU WILL NOT BE A JOINT OWNER OF A VEHICLE WITH HER.

[Grey Kitty]

Perhaps the actions I mentioned won't work. You may need to file for divorce to get yourself off the title of the lexus. Are you willing to go that far?

[formflier]

We own it jointly.  The lien with our credit union is in both of our names.  I have already thought that she would balk as she has several times in the months past.  I continue to do what is right and she can't bring herself to do it... .

What does the title say?  Sorry to be a bulldog on this... .but it may matter... . 

The title could be in one name... .and the lien in both... .or vice versa.

Then we have to figure out if state law applies.

IN my state... .vehicles are marital property.  So... even though the vehicles are in my name... .she really owns them too.

Vehicles were a big issue about a year ago... .I ended up putting one of them in joint ownership... she seemed happy...

What I think happened is she realized she was making a big deal about nothing... and hushed about it.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Two things, she has insurance on the Lexus, and I keep in touch with the president of lending for our credit union as she and my mom are good friends.  My wife and the lady at the CU both know I'm not paying another payment on that car.  One more thing, on the phone, when I told her I have saved her over $1000 dollars a month by keping her on my insurance, her response was, "Because I forced you to."  What the heck does that mean?  Anyway, I said, "No, you didn't force me to do anything, I did it because I love you."

As far as D, I may not have a choice... .The title is in both names... .

[formflier]

Take a stand.

I love it... .

Maroon,

I use a pre paid legal services thing... .I have for years.  Pay a flat fee each month... .less that $20.  And you get unlimited phone advice... .documents get reviewed.  Etc etc.

That is how I make sure that I am on solid legal ground when I make "moves".

Whatever you do here... .you need to make sure you are solid.  (don't explain this to your wife)

I like GK's plan... .it may or may not work in your state.  If you decide to do something like this... .make sure it works with the laws you live under

Also... you are still married.  If you buy a vehicle in your name... .does she have a claim to it.  In my state... .she would.

You need to know... .

Vehicles has been one of your wifes "go to" weapons... .she will go there again.  You need to be ready... .so you have the legal answers that will stand... .and you can use that in SET format... .or in some other format recommended by BPD family.

If you use good "tools"... .but are not on good legal ground... .I see that as being like inconsistently enforcing a boundary.

[Grey Kitty]

Take your stand. YOU WON'T SHARE VEHICLE OWNERSHIP WITH HER.

Don't JADE about it. It doesn't matter WHY you won't do this.

It matters even less if she knows WHY.

It matters less than zero if she agrees with WHY.

And if you let her turn it into a fight about why... .stuff like health insurance/etc... .you are diluting your important message!

All you need to communicate to her is that you are DONE with this. Whatever it takes.

On your part... .talk to a lawyer, and ask him what the cheapest way and the fastest way to dissolve any joint ownership of a vehicle with her is.

[MaroonLiquid]

Take a stand.

I love it... .

Maroon,

I use a pre paid legal services thing... .I have for years.  Pay a flat fee each month... .less that $20.  And you get unlimited phone advice... .documents get reviewed.  Etc etc.

That is how I make sure that I am on solid legal ground when I make "moves".

Whatever you do here... .you need to make sure you are solid.  (don't explain this to your wife)

I like GK's plan... .it may or may not work in your state.  If you decide to do something like this... .make sure it works with the laws you live under

Also... you are still married.  If you buy a vehicle in your name... .does she have a claim to it. 

No, she does not.  Not in this state.  This I know. 

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .