Are they just as confused about their own behavior as we are?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have read some accounts that seem to suggest that BPD's are very calculating and plan their behavior, especially as it relates to breakups and beyond. On the other hand, i have read many instances that BPD's insist that they themselves have no idea why they do the things that they do. I realize that there is no typical behavior for a BPD but is there a general proclivity one way or the other?

[JRT]

I have read some accounts that seem to suggest that BPD's are very calculating and plan their behavior, especially as it relates to breakups and beyond. On the other hand, i have read many instances that BPD's insist that they themselves have no idea why they do the things that they do. I realize that there is no typical behavior for a BPD but is there a general proclivity one way or the other?

[vortex of confusion]

I really think it depends on where they fall on the spectrum.

My husband can rarely explain anything that he does. I have asked him why. I have asked him to help me understand things and his usual response is "I don't know." Or, one of his favorites is "Because I am stupid." I really believe that he doesn't have a clue as to why he does the things he does. Those that don't have a clue are probably ones that have very little impulse control. They do things based on impulse rather than having a solid reason. It felt like a good decision in the moment and that is about it.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I would surmise that one can be calculating and plan their break up and still not know really why they are doing it. I know for a fact my uBPDexgf was looking for my replacement while I was spending my time reviewing her state's child custody laws so that she wouldn't get screwed over by a new court order from her exH's lawyer. So in essence she was screwing me while I was making sure she wouldn't get screwed over.

If you asked her today why she did it she would tell you she couldn't be with a woman after 9.5 yrs. Back last April she told me when the judge handed down his new findings that "if she had to find a man to f$& to keep her kids in private school, that was what she was going to do." So there you have it  planned and not at all sure why she did what she did. Wonder how Mr. lucky is going to feel when he discovers his in the closet lesbian gf was bedding him for money.

[ShadowIntheNight]

Asdf

[JRT]

I really think it depends on where they fall on the spectrum.

My husband can rarely explain anything that he does. I have asked him why. I have asked him to help me understand things and his usual response is "I don't know." Or, one of his favorites is "Because I am stupid." I really believe that he doesn't have a clue as to why he does the things he does. Those that don't have a clue are probably ones that have very little impulse control. They do things based on impulse rather than having a solid reason. It felt like a good decision in the moment and that is about it.

Do you suspect that his 'because I am stupid' is somewhat of a an apology at all?

[JRT]

I would surmise that one can be calculating and plan their break up and still not know really why they are doing it. I know for a fact my uBPDexgf was looking for my replacement while I was spending my time reviewing her state's child custody laws so that she wouldn't get screwed over by a new court order from her exH's lawyer. So in essence she was screwing me while I was making sure she wouldn't get screwed over.

If you asked her today why she did it she would tell you she couldn't be with a woman after 9.5 yrs. Back last April she told me when the judge handed down his new findings that "if she had to find a man to f$& to keep her kids in private school, that was what she was going to do." So there you have it  planned and not at all sure why she did what she did. Wonder how Mr. lucky is going to feel when he discovers his in the closet lesbian gf was bedding him for money.

That IS pretty calculating but it looks as if there was still a strong element of auto pilot there.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I would surmise that one can be calculating and plan their break up and still not know really why they are doing it. I know for a fact my uBPDexgf was looking for my replacement while I was spending my time reviewing her state's child custody laws so that she wouldn't get screwed over by a new court order from her exH's lawyer. So in essence she was screwing me while I was making sure she wouldn't get screwed over.

If you asked her today why she did it she would tell you she couldn't be with a woman after 9.5 yrs. Back last April she told me when the judge handed down his new findings that "if she had to find a man to f$& to keep her kids in private school, that was what she was going to do." So there you have it  planned and not at all sure why she did what she did. Wonder how Mr. lucky is going to feel when he discovers his in the closet lesbian gf was bedding him for money.

That IS pretty calculating but it looks as if there was still a strong element of auto pilot there.

I would agree. It's like a friend said to me last night| "It's like you didn't really know her at all after all of those years."  And my brother pointed out that if I asked her now why she did what she did she would probably answer with either "I don't know" or "it seemed the right thing to do at the time." Either answer is a bitter pill to swallow when one considers the repercussions to another person's life, wouldn't you say?

[JRT]

I totally agree... .but wouldn't that sort of an an admission prompt them to dig deep for answers or reach out for help? I realize that we are dealing with mental illness but I would think that they are conscious on SOME level. Mine ran the finances of her entire company! Certainly she had the lucidity to question the logic of her own behavior to some degree. Geez, it SO illogical, when I try to explain all of this to someone who has not been in contact with non, they think that I AM the crazy one! 

[vortex of confusion]

Do you suspect that his 'because I am stupid' is somewhat of a an apology at all?

I don't think it is an apology at all. I see it as a bit of a cop out. I see it as him avoiding taking responsibility for his actions.

[anxiety5]

I totally agree... .but wouldn't that sort of an an admission prompt them to dig deep for answers or reach out for help? I realize that we are dealing with mental illness but I would think that they are conscious on SOME level. Mine ran the finances of her entire company! Certainly she had the lucidity to question the logic of her own behavior to some degree. Geez, it SO illogical, when I try to explain all of this to someone who has not been in contact with non, they think that I AM the crazy one!  

I don't think it's malicious, I think it's all they know. Most likely they grew up not knowing what a healthy relationship is. The same way many of us reenact events in childhood where we seek different outcomes, they are simply acting out what they experienced as well. We have lived under their tyranny for months, for years and for some people decades. They lived in this same toxic environment as children. What could be more damaging than that?

They say BPD isn't a mental illness it's a behavioral disorder. They weren't born this way, they were created. It's sad really, but what's most sad, is even if you said this to them their trauma is buried so deep behind such a fortress of defense, they don't even have access to it to confirm that you are right.

Much like a drug user will lose his family, career, friends, and possessions, we depersonalize the tragedy of these events when we realize that they are a heroin addict. That's what drug addicts do. Their habit becomes their life, and their egocentric fixation causes the loss of everything around them.

I think healing is easier when you realize that it's not personal. We have been in relationships with people who can't define what a healthy relationship is. It's not that they didn't want to give us a healthy relationship, they simply aren't capable of doing it.

[vortex of confusion]

I totally agree... .but wouldn't that sort of an an admission prompt them to dig deep for answers or reach out for help? I realize that we are dealing with mental illness but I would think that they are conscious on SOME level. Mine ran the finances of her entire company! Certainly she had the lucidity to question the logic of her own behavior to some degree. Geez, it SO illogical, when I try to explain all of this to someone who has not been in contact with non, they think that I AM the crazy one! 

The problem is that they are in denial. They don't really think that they have a problem. Or, if they do realize it, digging deep requires too much work. I am guessing about that though. I know that with my husband there is a really big disconnect and there are things that he simply does not get.

I know what you mean about not being able to explain things to somebody that has never experienced it. How can I complain that he is not present but is always in my space? Unless you have experienced it, it sounds like I am crazy. I know I have felt crazy because things seem to be soo unbelievably contradictory.

[JRT]

great posts, I am learning so much... .how about this: say the psBPD goes to see a T and continues to do so? Is that then not the admission? Did they unlock what they did not have access to?

[Restored2]

vortexofconfusion: 

Your quote:

"I really think it depends on where they fall on the spectrum.My husband can rarely explain anything that he does. I have asked him why. I have asked him to help me understand things and his usual response is "I don't know." Or, one of his favorites is "Because I am stupid." I really believe that he doesn't have a clue as to why he does the things he does. Those that don't have a clue are probably ones that have very little impulse control. They do things based on impulse rather than having a solid reason. It felt like a good decision in the moment and that is about it."

This sums it all up nicely.  I can relate.

JRT: Surprisingly, this debilitating disorder has nothing to do with a BPD person being unintelligent and incapable of responsibly holding down a job/career.  Mine is extremely intelligent and has been a surgical nurse in a hospital.  As a side note, according to statistics, apparently the helping professions are filled with BPD workers.  Which is doctors, nurses, Psychologists, counsellors, social workers, etc.  Gives a whole new meaning to The Bible scripture; "Physician, heal thyself"... .

[vortex of confusion]

great posts, I am learning so much... .how about this: say the psBPD goes to see a T and continues to do so? Is that then not the admission? Did they unlock what they did not have access to?

Going to a T is only part of the equation. That is just an admission that something isn't right. There is no guarantee that a T will help them without a proper diagnosis. And then, IF there is a diagnosis, it will require a lot of work and effort on the part of the person with BPD.

There are lots of stories on the boards of people going to therapy and it making some difference but not much. I don't think my husband will ever unlock a lot of stuff because he seems to think his only problem is sex addiction. He doesn't see that there is more going on than just that. He seems convinced that if he can overcome the addiction then everything will be okay. In my opinion, there is more than just an addiction going on but I doubt that he will ever admit to it.

Another factor is whether or not they snow the T. Some people with BPD can be very charming and it would be pretty easy to pull one over on a T that doesn't have the proper training or the proper tools.

[anxiety5]

great posts, I am learning so much... .how about this: say the psBPD goes to see a T and continues to do so? Is that then not the admission? Did they unlock what they did not have access to?

I'm not sure. I've read the only affective thing for them is DBT. Cognitive behavioral retraining. I think these people go one of two ways (more than likely the first in most cases) that is:

1. They find someone who lacks any self worth. Someone introverted and passive. Someone who never digs deep. They feel safe with this person because they don't force them to face the contradictions and hypocrisy of their ways. They are passive and don't know how to ask for what they want. So they go with the BPDs flow. And they lack self worth which ends up being reinforced by the BPD's gradual devaluation and neglectful abandonment of them emotionally. These are the proverbial two old people where the man is present but never has an opinion about anything. He just exists. They sleep in different bedrooms and the family hierarchy is built upon the throne of the BPD who by this time has been validated into a tyrannical monster.

2. They encounter enough individuals who have enough self worth to seek answers and to eventually (even after months or years of abuse) enforce boundaries. As the relationship breaks down the BPD's world crumbles as they again end up abandoned, alone, and in a breakdown from a loss of control yet again. Broken, they seek therapy and happen to align themselves with the right therapist who is able to get through when the BPD begins to spew all the things that have happened in previous relationships. If the therapist is able to gain her trust, and her shame has reached a level in which she can't function because yet another relationship has failed, there is a tiny window that the therapist can get to the other side of this pain and perhaps make a breakthrough.

Without scenario 2, I think the only hope is DBT, because even when they can't access the pain to really heal, they can at the very list (at some point) understand that 5 or 10 boyfriends saying the same thing over and over and leaving, means they are going about things wrong. I don't know if DBT really heals the inner wound, but I know that it can significantly cause them to keep control over their emotions and understand how their behaviors must change and are the root of why people leave them.

No matter what the case, I really don't think it's worth enduring. I don't think love should be suicidal. You should not lose your sanity to try and will someone to gain theirs.

[ShadowIntheNight]

My ex is a LPC and has been one for the last 15 years. She counsels young adults daily about any number of issues including being honest about their sexuality. She went back into the closet after 10 yrs. If she's in denial bout that, there's no way she'll ever admit that she may have mental health issues. I hate to say this, but in her mind, she really is perfect. Yes, her BPD came attached with narcissism.

[JRT]

@Restored…sure, mine is an MBS and runs the finances of a large construction company…she is not dumb and one of the things that I admire about her

@Vortex….but why would anyone want to lie to the person that it attempting to help them? Is this common? It would be like a gunshot victim telling the ER surgeon that the bullet is in the opposite side of their body!

@Anxiety…how does DBT work?

@shadow…wow, how can you cope with that…that seems to me would be a lose/lose

[anxiety5]

Just google it.

Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) is a therapy designed to help people change patterns of behavior that are not effective, such as self-harm, suicidal thinking, and substance abuse.[1] This approach works towards helping people increase their emotional and cognitive regulation by learning about the triggers that lead to reactive states and helping to assess which coping skills to apply in the sequence of events, thoughts, feelings and behaviors that lead to the undesired behavior. DBT assumes that people are doing the best that they can, but either are lacking the skills or are influenced by positive or negative reinforcement that interfere with one’s functioning.

DBT is a modified form of cognitive-behavioral therapy that was originally [timeframe?] developed by Marsha M. Linehan, a psychology researcher at the University of Washington, to treat people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) and chronically suicidal individuals. Although research on its effectiveness in treating other conditions has been extremely limited, DBT is now used in a variety of psychological treatments including treatment for traumatic brain injuries (TBI), eating disorders, and mood disorders.[2][3] Scant research indicates that DBT might have some effect on patients who present varied symptoms and behaviors associated with spectrum mood disorders, including self-injury.[4] Recent work also suggests its effectiveness with sexual abuse survivors[5] and chemical dependency.[6]

[JRT]

From what little that I know, I would think that this approach would be the only one that would merit any success!

[MammaMia]

Anxiety 5

The Centre for Mental Health and Addiction says the following about the "creation" of BPD:


"What causes BPD?

As with other mental health disorders, our current understanding of BPD is that a person’s genetic inheritance, biology and environmental experiences all contribute to the development of BPD. That is, a person is born with certain personality or temperamental characteristics because of the way their brain is “wired,” and these characteristics are further shaped by their environmental experiences as they grow up and possibly by their cultural experiences.

Researchers have found differences in certain areas of the brain that might explain impulsive behaviour, emotional instability and the way people perceive events. As well, twin and family history studies have shown a genetic influence, with higher rates of BPD and/or other related mental health disorders among close family members. Environmental factors that may contribute to the development of BPD in vulnerable individuals include separation, neglect, abuse or other traumatic childhood events. However, families that provide a nurturing and caring environment may still have children who develop BPD, while children who experience appalling childhoods do not develop BPD.

Though histories of physical and sexual abuse are reported to be high among those with BPD, many other experiences can play a role for a child who is already emotionally vulnerable."


So you see, there are physiological aspects to BPD, primarily brain dysfunction. It is not just a "learned" or "created" behavior disorder. There is biological evidence that BPD is often present from birth.  Treatment is very difficult, because the disorder is an integral part of who these people are. 

[Haye]

It really depends on the person. Like VoC said, its a spectrum disorder. The pwBPD in my life, now an exbf, is rather typical 'waif' type of BPD - quiet, gently, all anger and hatred directed to himself, seldom outside. I my opinion he is even more confused by the way he behaves, understands it even less than I do.

It doesn't make any sense to him, either. Making big choices and deciding on something is very difficult, instead he rather floats along the currents like driftwood. Unfortunately, instead of just floating he all of a sudden does make some very stupid or weird moves. Due poor impulse control. Or the fears of being too close and fear of being abandoned at the same time. He is certain that he is not worth loving, and when someone does love him, he (unconsicously) rebels against this, acts in weird ways, destoys the trust etc and finally succeeds to prove his points.

And then struggles to understand what just happened and why he did it.

[JRT]

It really depends on the person. Like VoC said, its a spectrum disorder. The pwBPD in my life, now an exbf, is rather typical 'waif' type of BPD - quiet, gently, all anger and hatred directed to himself, seldom outside. I my opinion he is even more confused by the way he behaves, understands it even less than I do.

It doesn't make any sense to him, either. Making big choices and deciding on something is very difficult, instead he rather floats along the currents like driftwood. Unfortunately, instead of just floating he all of a sudden does make some very stupid or weird moves. Due poor impulse control. Or the fears of being too close and fear of being abandoned at the same time. He is certain that he is not worth loving, and when someone does love him, he (unconsicously) rebels against this, acts in weird ways, destoys the trust etc and finally succeeds to prove his points.

And then struggles to understand what just happened and why he did it.

sad... .this helps me to understand... .

[raisins3142]

I have read some accounts that seem to suggest that BPD's are very calculating and plan their behavior, especially as it relates to breakups and beyond. On the other hand, i have read many instances that BPD's insist that they themselves have no idea why they do the things that they do. I realize that there is no typical behavior for a BPD but is there a general proclivity one way or the other?

Impulsive and calculating are not mutually exclusive over time, or at all if you consider different streams of thought/emotion running in parallel.  A BPD can be triangulating or cultivating a back up strategically but still lost as to their deeper motivations and then go out, get drunk, and impulsively have sex in the back of a pick up truck behind a bar.  It is stupefying.

[JRT]

I have read some accounts that seem to suggest that BPD's are very calculating and plan their behavior, especially as it relates to breakups and beyond. On the other hand, i have read many instances that BPD's insist that they themselves have no idea why they do the things that they do. I realize that there is no typical behavior for a BPD but is there a general proclivity one way or the other?

Impulsive and calculating are not mutually exclusive over time, or at all if you consider different streams of thought/emotion running in parallel.  A BPD can be triangulating or cultivating a back up strategically but still lost as to their deeper motivations and then go out, get drunk, and impulsively have sex in the back of a pick up truck behind a bar.  It is stupefying.

I have to admit, I am a bit confused about this one. How can you do something entirely on the spur of the moment and at the same time have that moment calculated? In our discussion; how can the pwBPD experience a trigger and leave a relationship and at the same time have it all planned out? I know that I am missing something here.

[raisins3142]

I think healing is easier when you realize that it's not personal. We have been in relationships with people who can't define what a healthy relationship is. It's not that they didn't want to give us a healthy relationship, they simply aren't capable of doing it.

Enjoying your posts, Anx5.

I like this quoted above, and it would be a good question for someone after a bit of dating: "for you, what is a healthy relationship or what does it "look" like?"

[raisins3142]

JRT: Surprisingly, this debilitating disorder has nothing to do with a BPD person being unintelligent and incapable of responsibly holding down a job/career.  Mine is extremely intelligent and has been a surgical nurse in a hospital.  As a side note, according to statistics, apparently the helping professions are filled with BPD workers.  Which is doctors, nurses, Psychologists, counsellors, social workers, etc.  Gives a whole new meaning to The Bible scripture; "Physician, heal thyself"... .

My uBPDexgf is a nurse.  Her two BFFs on her floor are also very squarely cluster b.  One of the BFFs boyfriends is also obviously cluster b.  One of my close male friends is a nurse and exhibits cluster b traits. So, I have recently been pondering this connection.  Thanks for bringing it up.  Now I'm left trying to figure out why the association exists.

[anxiety5]

I think healing is easier when you realize that it's not personal. We have been in relationships with people who can't define what a healthy relationship is. It's not that they didn't want to give us a healthy relationship, they simply aren't capable of doing it.

Enjoying your posts, Anx5.

I like this quoted above, and it would be a good question for someone after a bit of dating: "for you, what is a healthy relationship or what does it "look" like?"

My ex had parents who split when she was a baby, mom married multiple times, grandmother lived alone almost her whole life and hated men. The family dynamic was female dominated and the men were all push overs who had no opinions about anything.

You can learn everything about them by the dynamic of the family they come from. Much like a daddy's girl, princess will be spoiled rotten and you will end up playing a father role to her, if someone you meet comes into your life with a history of divorces, multiple short term relationships and comes from a background as described above, it's quite clear they ARE and will most likely continue to act out what they know.

[vortex of confusion]

I have to admit, I am a bit confused about this one. How can you do something entirely on the spur of the moment and at the same time have that moment calculated? In our discussion; how can the pwBPD experience a trigger and leave a relationship and at the same time have it all planned out? I know that I am missing something here.

I don't think you are missing anything. It is confusing.

I think it is a situation where they play out different scenarios in their head but have no intention of acting on it. Then, the mood strikes them and, BAM, they act on their fantasy.

For example, my husband asked my permission to post and answer some ads. I didn't say yes but I didn't say no either. A normal person would have gleaned from the questions that I asked that the answer was no. I think he had been planning to do it anyway. Before there was any further discussion, he did it. I think he had been secretly planning to do it and wanting to do it but was trying NOT to do it and then something triggered him and he did it. So, in a way it was planned but in another way it was purely impulsive.

Does that make any sense at all?

[raisins3142]

I'm not sure. I've read the only affective thing for them is DBT. Cognitive behavioral retraining. I think these people go one of two ways (more than likely the first in most cases) that is:

1. They find someone who lacks any self worth. Someone introverted and passive. Someone who never digs deep. They feel safe with this person because they don't force them to face the contradictions and hypocrisy of their ways. They are passive and don't know how to ask for what they want. So they go with the BPDs flow. And they lack self worth which ends up being reinforced by the BPD's gradual devaluation and neglectful abandonment of them emotionally. These are the proverbial two old people where the man is present but never has an opinion about anything. He just exists. They sleep in different bedrooms and the family hierarchy is built upon the throne of the BPD who by this time has been validated into a tyrannical monster.

Hence why my uBPDexgf is posting memes related to how she just needs to find a strong love that is unconditional and all accepting... .and after we parted I told her "you will never be truly attracted to the type of man that is such a door mat that he will accept your behavior".  They are in a serious catch 22.  Mine wanted a strong protector, but anyone like that has the cojones to walk.

[JRT]

I have to admit, I am a bit confused about this one. How can you do something entirely on the spur of the moment and at the same time have that moment calculated? In our discussion; how can the pwBPD experience a trigger and leave a relationship and at the same time have it all planned out? I know that I am missing something here.

I don't think you are missing anything. It is confusing.

I think it is a situation where they play out different scenarios in their head but have no intention of acting on it. Then, the mood strikes them and, BAM, they act on their fantasy.

For example, my husband asked my permission to post and answer some ads. I didn't say yes but I didn't say no either. A normal person would have gleaned from the questions that I asked that the answer was no. I think he had been planning to do it anyway. Before there was any further discussion, he did it. I think he had been secretly planning to do it and wanting to do it but was trying NOT to do it and then something triggered him and he did it. So, in a way it was planned but in another way it was purely impulsive.

Does that make any sense at all?

Let me see if I understand against the backdrop of my ex... .she left suddenly and abruptly. As far as being calculating, she had rehearsed the disappearing act in her head for a period, might have been for months, and then something triggered her and she acted upon it on impulse and actually moved out?