Daughter is considering becoming an exotic dancer

[Parents! Get help here!]

I find myself in need of advice on strippers and strip clubs.

It has surprised me that despite the proclivity of strippers having BPD (30-40 %) very few people here have mentioned such. I had a bit of a chat with one member who is married to a stripper but thats about it, including going through the archives.

I have not been able to recontact him now and I need help.

I find myself in a situation where I have to garner information about this (sub-class) of BPD as it relates to my child.

I am fully aware of the stereotypes an generalizations but I am quite capable of dissecting information appropriately and am looking for any input. I suspect that they seem of queen variety maybe narcissistic /antisocial personality disorder gold digging traits.

One thing, from personal experience, their partners may not readily fall in the co-dependent enmeshed category. My ex was a stripper.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[SlyQQ]

I find myself in need of advice on strippers and strip clubs.

It has surprised me that despite the proclivity of strippers having BPD (30-40 %) very few people here have mentioned such. I had a bit of a chat with one member who is married to a stripper but thats about it, including going through the archives.

I have not been able to recontact him now and I need help.

I find myself in a situation where I have to garner information about this (sub-class) of BPD as it relates to my child.

I am fully aware of the stereotypes an generalizations but I am quite capable of dissecting information appropriately and am looking for any input. I suspect that they seem of queen variety maybe narcissistic /antisocial personality disorder gold digging traits.

One thing, from personal experience, their partners may not readily fall in the co-dependent enmeshed category. My ex was a stripper.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[enlighten me]

I hadnt thought about it before but my ex wife mentioned quite a lot that she wanted to be a pole dancer.  I always laughed it off as she was quite shy but kniwing what I do now about BPD I can see why this was a recurring idea. All that adoration would have  been validating.

[HappyNihilist]

These are strictly my personal observations and experiences. I'd say about 10-20% of strippers are basically well-adjusted, maybe some narc traits or general emotional immaturity (a lot of strippers are young, and the human brain doesn't stop developing until our mid-20s). The remainder include Cluster B traits, cPTSD, addicts/drunks, perpetual victims, lost souls, and the like.

People have all sorts of reasons for entering into sex work, just like with anything in life. But a profession that requires charm, seduction, emotional detachment, and sexuality -- and provides external validation and narcissistic supply -- is right up the borderline alley. It makes sense that many young, attractive female borderlines would be drawn to stripping, camming, or similar lines of work.

[SlyQQ]

What about strip clubs? My only source of information on this is my ex though knowledgeable trying to get an unbiased picture from someone with BPD is difficult.

Her current take is that pole dancing has made things worse and meth-amphetamine has taken over and there is unrelenting pressure (via money) on the girls to move into lap dancing an possibly further.

But talking to a pwBPD is a bit like talking to them about there ex's -- you're not going to get anything but black or white depending on how they feel. 

[going places]

Speaking from personal experience:

I bartended in that type of club in my early 20's.

I will share my observations.

1. Out of all the years I worked in those clubs, only 1 girl did it sober. She was 18.

2. 100% of the girls I worked with had a story; child abuse (usually sexual), neglect, and broken homes / absent father.

3. 90% of the girls did this for the money (it's a lot) and the attention wasn't bad either BUT of that 90%... .85% had nothing nice to say about the men. Perverts, "life support system for a wallet", a 'mark', pigs, etc. They played along with the "mark" out on the floor; but back in the dressing room, they were disgusted.

4. 10% are predators. They are used to being the prey, so now, they are the hunter. They seek out the 'weakest' link in the crowd, shower him with attention, and drain his bank account. Those gals ran in packs, and the other 90% stayed away from them.

5. Strip clubs are one of the saddest places on the planet. Every girl has a story, and each one heartbreaking. This place provides them with fast money for doing what they have been programmed to believe in the childhood: That their bodies, and the provocative-seductive behavior is the only way any man will pay attention to them. It's their 'worth'. It's sickening.

6. Of all the years I worked in those clubs I only knew 1 gal who actually 'stripped' to put herself thru college. She was also part of the 10% that "hunted". She was not a nice person. At all.

[Skip]

In 1990, C. A. Ross, G. Anderson, S. Heber, and G. R. Norton reported that 11% of the prostitutes that they studied had traits indicative of Borderline Personality Disorder in a very small sample study.  Ross et. al. is the source behind the news article cited above.  The complete reference is:

C. A. Ross, G. Anderson, S. Heber, and G. R. Norton, “Dissociation and abuse among multiple-personality patients, prostitutes, and exotic dancers,” Hospital and Community Psychiatry, vol. 41, no. 3, pp. 328–330, 1990.

Ross's data is not inconsistent with other larger studies that show that the prevalence of BPD is certain sub populations is higher than in the general population overall. For example, the native Americans (11.9%), families with income levels between 0-$19,999 (9.8%), people in the age group 20-29 (9.3%), or individuals that did not graduate from high school (8%).  bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66448

Neither Ross, nor the NIH is suggesting that pwBPD are inclined to become prostitutes nor American Indians.  These are epidemiological studies.  What the data suggest is that prevalence of the disorder is higher in these subgroups and should be seen as:

Prostitutes are more likely to have BPD  than women in the general population.

American Indians are more likely to have BPD  than women in the general population.

As an aside, there are many studies that suggest that childhood sexual abuse is the leading predictor of prostitution.  www.jfi.sagepub.com/content/12/3/361.abstract

[going places]

This is great information Skip! Thank you.

Seeing that the 'studies' are 25 years old, do you think that as society-culture-enviornmental-food additives-etc have changed drastically, could those factors change the statistics in 2015?

((Not all 'strippers' are prostitutes. I worked those clubs for a few years, and of all the girls that came and went maybe only 3-4 actually had sex for money))

[raisins3142]

These are strictly my personal observations and experiences. I'd say about 10-20% of strippers are basically well-adjusted, maybe some narc traits or general emotional immaturity (a lot of strippers are young, and the human brain doesn't stop developing until our mid-20s). The remainder include Cluster B traits, cPTSD, addicts/drunks, perpetual victims, lost souls, and the like.

People have all sorts of reasons for entering into sex work, just like with anything in life. But a profession that requires charm, seduction, emotional detachment, and sexuality -- and provides external validation and narcissistic supply -- is right up the borderline alley. It makes sense that many young, attractive female borderlines would be drawn to stripping, camming, or similar lines of work.

I'd bet topless and upscale places have more of the well adjusted types.  The fully nude, gross places where there is likely (semi-) prostitution going on are probably 99% addicts and such.

[Skip]

What about strip clubs? My only source of information on this is my ex though knowledgeable trying to get an

unbiased picture from someone with BPD is difficult.

Her current take is that pole dancing has made things worse and meth-amphetamine has taken over and there

is unrelenting pressure (via money) on the girls to move into lap dancing an possibly further.

But talking to a pwBPD is a bit like talking to them about there ex's -- you're not going to get anything but black or white depending on how they feel.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation.

Researchers at Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio studied exotic dancers. One-hundred percent of the dancers reported that they had been physically assaulted during work-related activities at least once. The prevalence or assaults ranged from 3 to 15 times during the time of employment in the sex industry, with a mean occurrence of eight incidents. The types of offenses included physical assault (100%), attempted vaginal penetration with fingers (61%) or objects (33%), and attempted vaginal rape (17%). Forty-four percent of the women interviewed in that study reported that they had been verbally threatened, with a range of 3 to 150 threats for those who reported threats.4

These findings were substantiated in another Wright State University study which found similar results. A greater prevalence of physical assaults and unwanted sexual contact occurred in indoor settings (e.g., lap dancing, private booths, and back rooms). Indoor is strip clubs, cabarets. Outdoor is prostitution, escort services, etc.

Holstopple K. Stripclubs according to strippers: exposing workplace sexual violence. In: Roche D, Roche C, editors. Making the Harm Visible: Global Sexual Exploitation of Women and Girls, Speaking Out and Providing Services. Kingston: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women; 1999. pp. 252–276.

Maticka-Tyndale E, Lewis J, Clark J, et al. Exotic dancing and health. Women and Health. 2000;31:87–108.

[fromheeltoheal]

Researchers at Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio studied exotic dancers. One-hundred percent of the dancers reported that they had been physically assaulted during work-related activities at least once. The prevalence or assaults ranged from 3 to 15 times during the time of employment in the sex industry, with a mean occurrence of eight incidents. The types of offenses included physical assault (100%), attempted vaginal penetration with fingers (61%) or objects (33%), and attempted vaginal rape (17%). Forty-four percent of the women interviewed in that study reported that they had been verbally threatened, with a range of 3 to 150 threats for those who reported threats.4

These findings were substantiated in another Wright State University study which found similar results. A greater prevalence of physical assaults and unwanted sexual contact occurred in indoor settings (e.g., lap dancing, private booths, and back rooms). Indoor is strip clubs, cabarets. Outdoor is prostitution, escort services, etc.

Holstopple K. Stripclubs according to strippers: exposing workplace sexual violence. In: Roche D, Roche C, editors. Making the Harm Visible: Global Sexual Exploitation of Women and Girls, Speaking Out and Providing Services. Kingston: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women; 1999. pp. 252–276.

Maticka-Tyndale E, Lewis J, Clark J, et al. Exotic dancing and health. Women and Health. 2000;31:87–108.

That's about as surprising as putting a burger in front of a starving dog and being surprised he eats it, and "exotic dancer" and "workplace" are misnomers.  As Going Places said, strip clubs are one of the saddest places on the planet.

[enlighten me]

What we have to remember is we have a different perception to sex. Ok maybe im generalising but my exgf told me quite proudly that she had slept with over 200 men. This figure appeals to her because to her it means she is attractive and desired. To others it means she is cheap and easy.

If sex takes on the same worth as a handshake then wouldnt you make money by shaking hands and not see the problem?

Im not saying this is the case. What I am saying is its a different mindset.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Skip]

What we have to remember is we have a different perception to sex. Ok maybe im generalising but my exgf told me quite proudly that she had slept with over 200 men. This figure appeals to her because to her it means she is attractive and desired.

Or empowered.

Researchers at High Point University have looked at customer-stripper interactions.  

The authors paint an odd picture of strippers feeling empowerment in a disempowering context. Stripping for money is not a high-status profession,  but it is a significant source of material rewards nonetheless, rewards realistically available in few other female vocations.   They found that the conflict between customers' goals and strippers' goals resulted in the need for the strippers to create and sell a "counterfeit intimacy" --  a situation in which an aura of intimacy masked mutually exploitative interactions.  

They explored the interactional strategies that table dancers use to fake intimacy-how they develop a "sorting process" to distinguish good tippers from bad ones, how they identify men who might be too sexually forward or expect too much, and how they single out men who might consume too much of their attention.

The researchers observed that some men enter such clubs more in search of a girlfriend or a wife than a striptease. Table dancers generally predatory toward such persons and would "lead them on" to secure gifts, money, and other material rewards, after which the man's advances were politely declined.

The conclude that in this "cat and mouse game", the strippers fare better then the men (not including the violence aspect).

Ronai CR, Ellis C. Turn-ons for money: interactional strategies of the table dancer. J Contemp Ethnography. 1989;18:271–298.

The study goes into great deal about the dynamics.  Here is an example.

A dancer used symbols that appealed to her audience. At the same time, these symbols distanced her from customers and denoted that the stage was a performance frame. Her appearance, eye contact, manner, and choice of music made up her main expressive equipment.

Having a "centerfold" figure was an obvious asset for dancers. But the best looking woman did not always make the most money. A dancer's presentation of self was also a crucial factor in a customer's decision to tip her. Similar to strippers described by, women often portrayed exaggerated stereotypes through their clothing style and movement. For instance, a "vamp style" dancer wore suggestive street clothing such  as a leather micro-mini skirt, spike-heeled boots, and a halter-style top while strutting around the st age displaying overt sexual mannerisms such as "flushing" (opening her shirt to reveal her pasty- clad breasts).

Others had a "gimmick."  For example, one woman was an acrobat; another stood on her head while twirling her large breasts. In contrast, a more sensual dancer dressed in sexy bedroom clothing such as a corset and garters or a teddy, and displayed subtle sensual behavior such as slow undulation of the hips.

Dancer chose symbols that drew a certain type of  customer to her.

Dressing the part of the vamp, for example, reflected an extroverted attitude that attracted customers out to have a good time. Overtly sexual dancers were more likely to perform sexual favors in the bar or meet' a man for sex outside the bar.

The sensual presentation of self attracted customers who were interested in a "serious," private interaction. Customers interpreted each dancer's symbols as cues to what it might be like to interact with her or, specifically, to have sex with her.

Most dancers used eye contact to  "feel  out" a patron. Managing frequent eye contact while dancing on stage usually meant a tip for the dancer and made a customer feel' as if a dancer was specifically interested  in  him. A dancer's first close contact with a customer often occurred while accepting a tip. During the exchange, the dancer formed impressions about how the customer was reacting to her, and the customer decided whether he was attracted to the woman. The customer stood at the side of the stage holding currency, which signaled the dancer that he wanted to tip her. The dancer greeted him while accepting the tip in her garter and said "thanks," perhaps giving him a "special" look. At this point, a dancer might choose from several courses of action, such as "coming on" to a customer, doting on a customer, and using humor.

When dancers "came on" to customers, they grinned, wiggled their breasts, spread their legs, struck their buttocks, suggestively sucked their fingers, talked dirty, or French kissed. Others, such as the sensual dancer, doted on a customer for a few seconds. She caressed his arm, wrapped her arms around his neck, and smiled while he tipped her. If she felt confident of his interest, typical comments she might make were: "I would love a chance to get to know you," or "I look forward to sitting with you," which meant accompanying him to his table after her stage performance.

Humor was an effective and safe tool for generating a good impression  while accepting a tip on stage. Customers generally construed a funny statement made by a dancer as friendly and spontaneous. Often it made a nervous client more at ease.

Familiar with the usual "acts" of dancers, such as coming on and showing phony interest, customers were pleased when they thought a woman had "dropped the routine." Often this meant only that she had staged a less frequently displayed one. A  dancer had to be careful not to use the same line more than once on the same person, or let a customer over hear it being used on another man.

No matter a customer's taste, he wanted a sincere performance.

www.carolrambo.com/articles/Turn-ons%20for%20Money-Ronai-Ellis.pdf

[enlighten me]

Or all of it skip.

My exgf seem to relate sex to love aswell so apart from feeling attractived, empowered, desirable she probably felt loved. Add to all the psycological aspects the physical aspect of serotonin and oxytocin release and theres a lot of possitives for them.

[Mike-X]

I apologize for not understanding the issue at hand.

Skip has presented great research characterizing risks and dynamics in strip clubs. Presenting this factual information to a teenager or young adult might be helpful in persuading them.

I would add that teenagers and young adults generally tend think differently about probablistic facts than adults. This is based on work by Reyna & Brainerd. Teens tend to process probabilities just fine, but their conclusions differ from adults. So if you say to a teen, there is increased risk for developing cancer if you smoke, the teen accepts that there is an increased risk. However, many know that increased risk is not a guarantee and possibly believe that the risk applies to others and not them. Adults tend to generalize more and think more black and white (i.e., death is bad, and increased risk of death is equally bad). (These are generalizations in differences in thinking, and of course, there is a good amount of variability among teens and adults).

So one thing to consider is emphasizing the guaranteed outcomes. All strippers report being physically-sexually assaulted. Most report vaginal or attempted vaginal penetration and some rape.

I believe that the other work on counterfeit intimacy also can be useful for persuading a teen with BPD to stay out of stripping/adult entertainment. If a teen is thinking that the exchanges will feed a sense of empowerment and control over men and/or will substitute for genuine intimacy, all to manage feelings of low self-worth, then presenting those details on the real exchanges might challenge the teen's romantisized view.

As with most confrontations, these things should be wrapped in validation for the teens feelings, compassion, and love.

[HappyNihilist]

I'm sorry you're in such a difficult situation, Sly. 

I stripped some during college. The excellent information that Skip has posted here reflects my personal observations and experiences from my time in strip clubs.

Her current take is that pole dancing has made things worse and meth-amphetamine has taken over and there

is unrelenting pressure (via money) on the girls to move into lap dancing an possibly further.

A lot of things depend on the individual club itself. Some clubs are usually "known" for drugs and prostitution; others do what they can to curb those elements.

I would advise anyone who's considering stripping to actually visit some clubs and talk to the people who work there (strippers and other staff).

Most of the money does come from lap dancing and from "regular customers." So there's a lot of pressure to sell dances and to foster connections with potential customers. On the whole, strippers do a lot more talking than dancing. It's a lot of PR work.

It's a difficult job -- mentally, emotionally, and physically. It requires a lot of navigating around the complex waters of human sexual interactions and gender dynamics. The monetary rewards can be great, but it's a world of drama, disillusionment, and inauthenticity.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage anyone from stripping, but I think that young women especially have misconceptions of what all is truly involved. I know I did.

My advice would be to have a validating, nonjudgmental talk about it. I like Mike-X's suggestions. It's difficult to approach teenagers and young adults about such things, but approaching them as adults can help -- not talking down to or lecturing in any way, but encouraging an open, mature discussion. Young adults are often looking for ways to feel empowered and in control.

Researchers at Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio studied exotic dancers. One-hundred percent of the dancers reported that they had been physically assaulted during work-related activities at least once. The prevalence or assaults ranged from 3 to 15 times during the time of employment in the sex industry, with a mean occurrence of eight incidents. The types of offenses included physical assault (100%), attempted vaginal penetration with fingers (61%) or objects (33%), and attempted vaginal rape (17%). Forty-four percent of the women interviewed in that study reported that they had been verbally threatened, with a range of 3 to 150 threats for those who reported threats.

Researchers at High Point University have looked at customer-stripper interactions. 

The authors paint an odd picture of strippers feeling empowerment in a disempowering context. Stripping for money is not a high-status profession,  but it is a significant source of material rewards nonetheless, rewards realistically available in few other female vocations.   They found that the conflict between customers' goals and strippers' goals resulted in the need for the strippers to create and sell a "counterfeit intimacy" --  a situation in which an aura of intimacy masked mutually exploitative interactions. 

They explored the interactional strategies that table dancers use to fake intimacy-how they develop a "sorting process" to distinguish good tippers from bad ones, how they identify men who might be too sexually forward or expect too much, and how they single out men who might consume too much of their attention.

The researchers observed that some men enter such clubs more in search of a girlfriend or a wife than a striptease. Table dancers generally predatory toward such persons and would "lead them on" to secure gifts, money, and other material rewards, after which the man's advances were politely declined.

The conclude that in this "cat and mouse game", the strippers fare better then the men (not including the violence aspect).

[SlyQQ]

Thanks for all the information Skip it is very helpful and thank you everyon else for your concern.     Borderline Personality Disorder in Strippers/Exotic Dancers?

A study by the director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology program at the University of Pennsylvania found 55 percent of strippers are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and 60 percent experience depression. I thought 55% was on the high side but still an astounding figure.

[Skip]

Thanks for all the information Skip it is very helpful and thank you

everyon else for your concern.

   

Borderline Personality Disorder in Strippers/Exotic Dancers?

A study by the director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology program at the University of Pennsylvania found 55 percent of strippers are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and 60 percent experience depression.

I thought 55% was on the high side but still an astounding figure.

I didn't post that information  - it was her observation - not sure what that means. Seems high.

[SlyQQ]

FYI my step daughter ( i care for her ) who just turned 18 December 30 is extremely BPD and probably bipolar 1 We have as good a relationship as someone who is on her back about work / school can have. ( a sort of grudging respect / acceptance ) Her outlook is very poor regardless of weather she progresses from exotic dancing or not. (looming drug addiction / very smart but cant sit final exams hospitalizations, etc ) Ironically the reason she applied for these jobs is because i said she could not spend all day in bed an not go to school as is the want of BPD she then applied for these jobs i don't even suspect it was intentional payback an she is even in a good spot at the moment. ( the establishment is fairly high class ) But to say she is vulnerable would be a massive understatement I have tried to urge her to go to church to meet some friends ( burnt all her friends when she psycho in hospital ) she said yes but didn't come will try again apologies for the punctuation

[enlighten me]

Hi slyqq

Im sorry your having to deal with this. I can understand you wanting to get her away from this. I dont know your or your stepdaughters interests so I cant say if involving her in the church will be taken up by your step daughter.

Personally I would not try to push the church on to her as it can come across as judgemental at times and your stepdaughter may see it as a polar opposite of what she is doing and therefore it could be quite triggering. I do feel though that getting her interested in something else would be beneficial. Is there a different hobby or interest you could look at?  Maybe looking at what job she wanted to do and find an interest that relates to it that could maybe lead into working in that field.

You sound as if you have a strong relationship with her and are able to talk to her about this openly. Have you discussed BPD with her? You say she is extremely BPD but im not sure if you said she was diagnosed.

[SlyQQ]

Thanks light. She is actually sought of religious its hard to explain a BPD thing. It is a long story I have been talking to her an she has got some modeling work ( legit above board ) already from one of the people she met there, but she doesn't have any other hobbies she can easily pursue.

p.s. she will just about rip your eyes out if you mention BPD ( her mum ) in hospital they said manic with abandonment issues ( also said suicide attempt while she was in, wasn't a legitimate attempt )

[enlighten me]

Hi sly

I think this is one of the hardest parts of dealing with BPD. The fact that you cannot discuss it with your loved one.

The legit modelling sounds like it could be an answer. By encouraging this and voicing your fears that her current choice scares you as you hear so many horror stories you may be able to divert her.

Its sad to think that you have to behave like a pwBPD to try and help them. By this I mean you have to manipulate them rather than being honest with them. Im not saying that we are manipulative but we have to make them believe its their idea or else they can reject it.

Maybe you could try introducing a hobby such as photography to go with the modelling idea. Put a spin on it that it will help her understand what the photographer is after and so make her more rounded in the proffession.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raisins3142]

I would advise anyone who's considering stripping to actually visit some clubs and talk to the people who work there (strippers and other staff).

Most of the money does come from lap dancing and from "regular customers." So there's a lot of pressure to sell dances and to foster connections with potential customers. On the whole, strippers do a lot more talking than dancing. It's a lot of PR work.

It's a difficult job -- mentally, emotionally, and physically. It requires a lot of navigating around the complex waters of human sexual interactions and gender dynamics. The monetary rewards can be great, but it's a world of drama, disillusionment, and inauthenticity.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage anyone from stripping, but I think that young women especially have misconceptions of what all is truly involved. I know I did.

Disagreed.

Some might make it out or be adjusted and not abused, but playing by the odds and what damage it can do, it make zero sense to strip unless it is a choice between that and starvation.

From what I know, I would without a doubt discourage anyone from this work.

You might've found an exception, but the vast majority of men would take stripping as a red flag and find better odds.  It very obviously hurts your prospects in LTR.  Most men are not "evolved" enough to look past.  That is a simple truth.  It might sound unfair, but it is absolute reality. And I talk to many men frankly and the agreement is 100%.

Further, if you ask girls at the club about it, they have a strong reason to lie.  If they told the brutal truth it would hurt recruitment and likely get them into trouble.  On none of my job interviews has a worker said "this place sucks and you should avoid it".

[SlyQQ]

Skip the figure of 55% of strippers being BPD seems unrealistically high. It indicates to me there may have been some overlap with other disorders. I have seen other figures as well indicating 35 to 45% . It is a very interesting dynamic that I have to consder regarding exposure to like minded individuals and where that may lead I am sorry if my post s are often rushed and sometimes cryptic I have immense time pressures ( single parent three kids one mentally disturbed ) working 70 hours a week to keeo things going. Just like to say i think you are doing a great job an i apolagize for any inconvienience 

[HappyNihilist]

You might've found an exception, but the vast majority of men would take stripping as a red flag and find better odds.  It very obviously hurts your prospects in LTR.  Most men are not "evolved" enough to look past.  That is a simple truth.  It might sound unfair, but it is absolute reality.

I've never found it to be an issue with relationships. If a man is going to judge me that harshly for something I did over a decade ago, then I wouldn't want much to do with him anyway.

[BorisAcusio]

You might've found an exception, but the vast majority of men would take stripping as a red flag and find better odds.  It very obviously hurts your prospects in LTR.  Most men are not "evolved" enough to look past.  That is a simple truth.  It might sound unfair, but it is absolute reality.

I've never found it to be an issue with relationships. If a man is going to judge me that harshly for something I did over a decade ago, then I wouldn't want much to do with him anyway.

I wasn't judgemental on this topic until I've met my BPDex as we've all had our share of past mistakes. I'm still open minded but now see it as an indicator that will result in disaster 90 percent of the cases, can't really blame anyone for not betting their emotional well-being with those odds.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi Sly-

I don't know that a clinical label and statistics are as important as motivations.  There's a purity to strip clubs, where women flaunt their sexuality and allure for money while men objectify them, respond to a drive and maybe satisfy it, and pay.  The intimacy is fake, paid-for intimacy always is, yet everyone knows that, and in a sense the transactions are cleaner than the same ones outside in the world, which are varying versions of real and fraught with uncertainty, as the beginnings of real intimacy always are.  The elimination of that uncertainty is why strip clubs exist.

Anyway.  BPD traits exist on a continuum, and the strip club environment meets a borderline's needs on a couple of levels: an attachment in the form of a transaction is created, abandonment is a given from the outset so it won't be feared, and engulfment is impossible because the intimacy is fake and the girl is in control.

So what does yours get out of it, besides money?  There's nothing inherently evil about strip clubs, in a sense they're just a monetization of what happens in the world at large, the only issue being folks who lose themselves there and forget or never perceive what is really going on.  So what needs does yours meet by working there?  And how can those needs be met in other ways?  :)oing mainstream modeling is similar in that they're both a celebration of physical beauty and allure, but would it meet the same needs for her?  And the meth is meeting needs too, it's a great antidepressant, for example.  We all have beliefs about behaviors, but it's not hard to suspend them and dig for the needs doing meth and stripping meet, and finding other ways to meet those needs at a higher level more holistically; one of the best things we can do for someone who appears to be engaging in disempowering vehicles to meet their needs is to provide alternative vehicles by focusing on those needs.  Take care of you!

[BorisAcusio]

So what does yours get out of it, besides money?  There's nothing inherently evil about strip clubs, in a sense they're just a monetization of what happens in the world at large, the only issue being folks who lose themselves there and forget or never perceive what is really going on. So what needs does yours meet by working there?  And how can those needs be met in other ways?  :)oing mainstream modeling is similar in that they're both a celebration of physical beauty and allure, but would it meet the same needs for her?  And the meth is meeting needs too, it's a great antidepressant, for example.  We all have beliefs about behaviors, but it's not hard to suspend them and dig for the needs doing meth and stripping meet, and finding other ways to meet those needs at a higher level more holistically; one of the best things we can do for someone who appears to be engaging in disempowering vehicles to meet their needs is to provide alternative vehicles by focusing on those needs.  Take care of you!

Great line of thought. Cam modeling was only a vehicle to fulfill the needs that arised in her, a familiar one as their attachments are themselves transactional in nature, where youth and sexuality become a personalized commodity in the evaluation of the partner’s needs.

There had to be a counter-offer, one that's viable and leads to immediate gratification, as they have a great difficulty in delaying short-term rewards for the sake of meeting long-term goals. Modeling could be a good idea, if turns out that the slow career ladder and work required in the industry is not her cup of tea, then it could still easily lead to finding someone who sponsors her lifestyle which is, taking reality into account, would be a quite good outcome right now.

[Skip]

There's a purity to strip clubs, where women flaunt their sexuality and allure for money while men objectify them, respond to a drive and maybe satisfy it, and pay.  The intimacy is fake, paid-for intimacy always is, yet everyone knows that, and in a sense the transactions are cleaner than the same ones outside in the world, which are varying versions of real and fraught with uncertainty, as the beginnings of real intimacy always are.  The elimination of that uncertainty is why strip clubs exist.

I'm not sure purity and "cleaner" is true or that everyone knows the game.  

My experience in this area was to be a landlord in an area where some tenants were strippers. I got to see the lifecycle of a stripper - and this may be the area to focus.

The image I saw was very attractive young women getting booked at the top club in the area and making incredible money - and adopting the lifestyle of that wealth.  As newer girls came into the circuit, these girls got bumped to the "B" clubs where making that same money was harder.  And then the "C" clubs... .and ":)" clubs.  

Eventually, they were mid-late thirties and bitter and having relationships with undesirable boyfriends to pay the bills. And then the crash.

What does a 40 year old stripper do for a living?

My point is that the "fake intimacy" can become all they know or all they have access too and it becomes them. People with BPD already have attachment issues.

My other view is of the men here who went to the clubs to finds something more than fake intimacy.  They take on these broken women and try to rehabilitate them and never know what is real or what is "fake intimacy".

There are a few that get in, get the money and get out. I had one that danced for a year, quit, and went to chiropractor school. She stayed and worked the top club, didn't drink, lived well below her means.

If you can't talk her out of it  - if she is going - maybe the best the best thing to do is educate her on how to get in and get out and to do it for a greater purpose.

[fromheeltoheal]

There's a purity to strip clubs, where women flaunt their sexuality and allure for money while men objectify them, respond to a drive and maybe satisfy it, and pay.  The intimacy is fake, paid-for intimacy always is, yet everyone knows that, and in a sense the transactions are cleaner than the same ones outside in the world, which are varying versions of real and fraught with uncertainty, as the beginnings of real intimacy always are.  The elimination of that uncertainty is why strip clubs exist.

I'm not sure purity and "cleaner" is true or that everyone knows the game.  

It is cleaner, but you're right, not everyone knows the game.  We all know how it plays out in the real world; if a man wants to get laid he will buy a woman flowers, dinner and drinks, with an agenda, and if a woman wants to get laid she'll wear a shorter skirt and unbutton and extra button on her blouse, with an agenda.  The games people play.  Prostitution is the cleanest of all: pay money insert penis, no games.  Of course none of that has anything to do with true connection, the development of intimacy, or the building of healthy relationships, but those things involve risk and are not what strip clubs are about.

Getting in and getting out with emotional detachment and clear financial goals could work Sly, and it will be important to discover what if any motivations to get needs met are there beyond financial gain, and address those and options in meeting them as well, so she doesn't go down the path Skip describes, using a diminishing and unsustainable commodity without an exit plan.  Take care of you!

[clydegriffith]

Interesting topic. The BPDx used to mention that she would go out and be a stripper if she were not self conscious about her body after having a baby. It's right up her alley and i wouldnt be surprised if her life hadn't panned out the way it has (5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years), she would be probably be stripping.

That being said i have much more respect for a stripper or a prostitute than i do for the BPDx because at least they are charging money. The BPDx would give it up to pretty much anyone that looked her way for free.