Finally had time to look inwards

[Depression = 72% of members]

jhkbuzz, you've obviously found some really relevant stuff to yourself. I see two things in here, and want to point out that they are very different.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

All the highlighted things in this round sound to me like things stemming from significant unresolved issues you have... .and just had a  moment about. When you deal with some of those things, your life and relationships will probably improve dramatically.

These two things here sound very different to me:

I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. ... .even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.

Despite being straight and male, I do know a thing or two about bisexuality. And what you describe here sounds normal, healthy, and possibly even typical. Among bisexuals, being more sexually attracted to one gender than the other is very common. And being more emotionally attracted to one gender is also very common. Having those preferences be toward different genders is also common.

There is a very good chance that that aspect of yourself is just who you are, and not something that could should, or would change.

[Grey Kitty]

jhkbuzz, you've obviously found some really relevant stuff to yourself. I see two things in here, and want to point out that they are very different.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

All the highlighted things in this round sound to me like things stemming from significant unresolved issues you have... .and just had a  moment about. When you deal with some of those things, your life and relationships will probably improve dramatically.

These two things here sound very different to me:

I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. ... .even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.

Despite being straight and male, I do know a thing or two about bisexuality. And what you describe here sounds normal, healthy, and possibly even typical. Among bisexuals, being more sexually attracted to one gender than the other is very common. And being more emotionally attracted to one gender is also very common. Having those preferences be toward different genders is also common.

There is a very good chance that that aspect of yourself is just who you are, and not something that could should, or would change.

[jhkbuzz]

jhkbuzz, you've obviously found some really relevant stuff to yourself. I see two things in here, and want to point out that they are very different.

I'm thinking about the fact that I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. That, with a uber-passive dad (and with being molested by a family member from 6 to 11 years old) my experience of men is that they can't be trusted or relied upon. That they are either emotionally absent or incredibly selfish... .and in both scenarios they are unconcerned with what I might need in any way.  I'm thinking about the fact that when I started dating as a teen I was triggered like crazy and I didn't completely understand what was happening... .why these boys I liked both fascinated and repulsed me and left me feeling deeply ashamed.  I'm thinking about the fact that even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.  I'm thinking about the fact that if I date men now I am STILL being triggered... .I immediately assume the worst - that they want to use me.  I'm thinking about the fact that the two women that I fell in love with had clear mental health issues... .I suspect both were BPD.

All the highlighted things in this round sound to me like things stemming from significant unresolved issues you have... .and just had a   moment about. When you deal with some of those things, your life and relationships will probably improve dramatically.

These two things here sound very different to me:

I've lived my adult life as a bisexual female. ... .even when I was in satisfying r/s's with women I never lost my (physical) attraction to men... .and that I'm much more sexually attracted to men but more emotionally attracted to women.

Despite being straight and male, I do know a thing or two about bisexuality. And what you describe here sounds normal, healthy, and possibly even typical. Among bisexuals, being more sexually attracted to one gender than the other is very common. And being more emotionally attracted to one gender is also very common. Having those preferences be toward different genders is also common.

There is a very good chance that that aspect of yourself is just who you are, and not something that could should, or would change.

Thank you for your insights - you've given me some things to think about.

Sometimes I feel like my choice is between the lesser of the evils... .r/s's with men that trigger my distrust and anger, or r/s's with women which are much less triggering - but appear to be some sort of repetition compulsion. (I don't doubt for a minute that there's some kind of correlation between my r/s with my (unstable?) mother and my r/s's with two BPD women).

Y.I.K.E.S.  

As far back as I can remember, my mom was raging and my dad was... .inconsequential.  And the molestation is among some of my earliest memories. So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.  I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't. I was first approached by a woman when I was 24 and it was such a relief to not be triggered (in connection to expressing myself sexually) that I thought I found the answer - I was gay!  It was that simple!

But I don't think it is.  

I do have a T, by the way. Good thing, right?  

[Grey Kitty]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

Sexual orientation seems to be hard-wired into people. In the rare cases where it changes, nobody's had success controlling or causing that kind of change that I know of.

So the question of whether this made you bisexual... .seems unlikely... .but if it did happen, that is who you are today. You could go in circles around this question, but I don't see how either answer would help you.

I highly recommend Dan Savage for you--He's a gay sex/relationship advice columnist. If you like spoken word audio, he has an excellent podcast. If you prefer reading, he writes a column. Similar stuff in both. He is an excellent source on questions around sexual identity and kink (if that applies to you), as well as giving generally very solid relationship type advice. (He has never mentioned BPD, and I've seen stuff that practically SCREAMS BPD a few times. While he doesn't address it as directly or as completely as these forums do, his relationship advice around those behaviors, especially abusive stuff is very sound.)

I have to credit him with most of what I know about bisexuality that I've written for you here.

I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't.

This part is different--Addressing the shame and anger is what you will need to start having healthy relationships... .with whichever gender you end up with. BTW... .I'm NOT recommending you get involved with men JUST to experience the shame and anger so you can deal with it.  

Here's another interesting question for you... .those relationships with men you've had... .have they ever lasted long enough past your being triggered for you to figure out if those guys were any healthier than the BPD-ish women you've been involved with?

Do you think they were at a similar level of dysfunction, but a different flavor?

[BorisAcusio]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

There are conflicting theoris on what casues disturbances in sexual identity.

According to a study on Sexual Orientation and Relationship Choice in Borderline Personality Disorder:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203737/

In this study, there was a trend toward a reported history of childhood sexual abuse predicting homosexual/bisexual orientation and/or same-sex relationships. This is consistent with clinical experience that some female borderline patients may identify themselves as homosexual or may choose female sexual partners because of histories of childhood abuse by men. In these cases, choice of sexual partner may have less to do with sexual attraction than with establishing an intimate relationship that provides a sense of safety.

While being heterosexual I can completely relate to that. My father was abusive in a eastern european way, most likely narcissistic and it had a lifelong impact on relating with other men. It never felt safe and the deep seated distrust resulted in early peer rejection, ultimately reinforcing that distorted beleif. After my teenage years, I never initiated to strenghten the bond towards friendship. It was and still is triggering.

[jhkbuzz]

So this is the thing I wonder: would I even be bisexual if it wasn't for those circumstances?  I'm not sure I would be.

A good friend of mine has a saying that applies to this situation: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

One thing I've heard well confirmed is that childhood sexual abuse does NOT make people queer. However, kids who ARE queer (gay, trans... .something other than straight and cisgendered) ARE more vulnerable to the ugly controlling abusive techniques that child molesters employ. Thus it is common for molested children to be gay, but the root cause is being gay and the associated feeling of not belonging and not being acceted.

Sexual orientation seems to be hard-wired into people. In the rare cases where it changes, nobody's had success controlling or causing that kind of change that I know of.

So the question of whether this made you bisexual... .seems unlikely... .but if it did happen, that is who you are today. You could go in circles around this question, but I don't see how either answer would help you.

Thank you - I think you're right in many ways.  It's a moot question at this point - I have had enough life experiences at this point to identify as bisexual. 

And I know that sexual abuse doesn't "make" someone gay/bisexual... .there are plenty of people who have been molested who have retained their sexual orientation. All I know is that, when I was younger, sex with men - even though I wanted it - was intensely triggering for me.  I wish I would have understood "triggers" at that time; I would have understood why I was feeling such deep shame. In many ways that shame was connected to the very fact that I wanted men sexually.  Somehow I was connecting my sexual longings as an adult with the abuse... .if I "want" men today then I must have "wanted" what happened to me when I was younger.  Very sad, but I think that's where my mind went.

So I guess I've sometimes wondered if I simply "defaulted" to women... .sexuality needs to be expressed... .I was approached (and that's how all my r/s's with women start - I never pursue)... .I wasn't triggered... .viola'!  But I guess I must have had that potential to begin with.

I highly recommend Dan Savage for you--He's a gay sex/relationship advice columnist. If you like spoken word audio, he has an excellent podcast. If you prefer reading, he writes a column. Similar stuff in both. He is an excellent source on questions around sexual identity and kink (if that applies to you), as well as giving generally very solid relationship type advice. (He has never mentioned BPD, and I've seen stuff that practically SCREAMS BPD a few times. While he doesn't address it as directly or as completely as these forums do, his relationship advice around those behaviors, especially abusive stuff is very sound.)

I have to credit him with most of what I know about bisexuality that I've written for you here.

I spent last night reading some of his columns and I found a lot of it interesting... .but I'm also strongly monogamous, so some of his advice was off-putting.

I can tell you that men trigger deep shame and anger in me... .and women don't.

This part is different--Addressing the shame and anger is what you will need to start having healthy relationships... .with whichever gender you end up with. BTW... .I'm NOT recommending you get involved with men JUST to experience the shame and anger so you can deal with it.  

Here's another interesting question for you... .those relationships with men you've had... .have they ever lasted long enough past your being triggered for you to figure out if those guys were any healthier than the BPD-ish women you've been involved with?

Do you think they were at a similar level of dysfunction, but a different flavor?

I am about to address all of this with my T... .she has years of therapy experience, and specializes in EMDR so we are going to (slowly) start those sessions.  I've been seeing her for about 6 months.

I am almost 7 months out of a long term r/s with a woman, and was single for a long time before that, so it's been a while since I've been in a r/s with a man.  What I can tell you is that I can have emotional r/s's with men, and I can have sexual r/s's with men, but I have a hard time combining the two.  For that reason, my r/s with men don't usually get past the 10 month mark... .while I love the sex at the beginning, I lose interest without the emotional connection. So I'm not 100% sure if the guys are healthier, but if I had to try to answer I'd say yes, they were.

[jhkbuzz]

There are conflicting theoris on what casues disturbances in sexual identity.

According to a study on Sexual Orientation and Relationship Choice in Borderline Personality Disorder:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203737/

In this study, there was a trend toward a reported history of childhood sexual abuse predicting homosexual/bisexual orientation and/or same-sex relationships. This is consistent with clinical experience that some female borderline patients may identify themselves as homosexual or may choose female sexual partners because of histories of childhood abuse by men. In these cases, choice of sexual partner may have less to do with sexual attraction than with establishing an intimate relationship that provides a sense of safety.

While being heterosexual I can completely relate to that. My father was abusive in a eastern european way, most likely narcissistic and it had a lifelong impact on relating with other men. It never felt safe and the deep seated distrust resulted in early peer rejection, ultimately reinforcing that distorted beleif. After my teenage years, I never initiated to strenghten the bond towards friendship. It was and still is triggering.

I can relate to the bold... .but I'm not Borderline - I asked my T to tell me if I have any major personality disturbances! (She said no).

Boris... .it sounds like you have difficulty forming male friendships... .is it a feeling of lack of "safety"?

[Grey Kitty]

Boris,

Childhood history, especially when there is abuse has HUGE influence on the sort of intimate partners you choose in very many ways. (The original poster's story in this thread featured the issue of choosing emotionally unavailable men until she acknowledged and grieved the ways her father wasn't there for her as a girl) Many members here have chosen multiple romantic partners that have unhealthy characteristics shared with one of their parents.

It makes complete sense all of your relationships with men would be influenced like this, for example.

I suspect that jhkbuzz is typical here though--the sexual attraction (or lack of it) to various kinds of people is hard-wired into her... .and the choice of which (attractive to her) people to have a relationship with... .was strongly influenced by other things like her treatment by her parents.

I highly recommend Dan Savage... .

I spent last night reading some of his columns and I found a lot of it interesting... .but I'm also strongly monogamous, so some of his advice was off-putting.

Yes, some of his advice would be off-putting to a monogamous person... .I see him as respectful of people who are and want to be monogamous, while promoting other forms of healthy relationships. I suspect that after a couple decades of reading letters about partners who cheated he sees monogamy as creating more problems than it solves... .especially since culturally it is considered the only acceptable relationship model. He has also taken the err... .controversial... .position of advising some people to cheat in very special circumstances. (Not circumstances that I've ever seen on these boards, or ever expect to)

Take from him what works for you, and try to skip over things that are disturbing, triggering, or simply not applicable to you--I recommended him for you because he gives good life/relationship advice to bisexual people. I remember him citing a prominent bisexual who had written some sort of memoir, I think talking to him on the podcast... .I hope you find good things like that from Dan.

He also gives VERY sound and practical advice to people in abusive relationships. His advice includes excellent boundary enforcement like we suggest on these boards.