Anyway to understand a weak self concept of BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi,

Trying to imagine not having a "sense of self" is sort of like trying to imagine infinity or 4 dimensional space or something.  I just can't wrap my head around it.

I have had mild disassociation for brief periods when anxious, etc., but not enough to really be distressing or make me feel that I might not "comeback".

Perhaps it is like that but on steroids?

Right now, I'm imagining scenarios and not having an automatic emotion or thought in relation to them that seems to come from the "me" that feels like it floats around in my head behind my eyes.  It is hard to do and almost scary when I kinda pulled it off!

Is it like that I wonder?

Anyone have a useful thought experiment, etc?

I'm imagining my uBPDexgf's facial expression.  Weak affect unless she was smiling purposefully and fakely and putting up a front of sorts.  She had what is called "resting b!tch face" as a result.  I think this lack of real expression when relaxed (just face drops) is kind of a red flag for me now.  Also, when she would drive by me, she would not be looking around or look over and waver or smile, like most people.  She would be staring blankly straight ahead and would not even turn her head to look over at me or acknowledge me at all.  Very weird.  I'm thinking when she is alone in the car, she might "disappear" and what I witnessed is the result.

Although she had specific tastes in regards to visual art, tv/movies, and books (all sci fi or fantasy), she had zero real taste in music.  She listened to whatever was on the pop music radio.  She never talked about a band she liked.  Owned no CDs or other music.  She just sang along with whatever style of music was currently popular and liked it all or at least listened to it all.  I've never met someone that seemed to have zero musical preference.  I would not even listen to music in that case.  

Also, she did not know her left from her right side.  She had to point to give directions and I could not tell her something like "the plate is to your left" as she did not process it.  I've heard this occurs in NONs, but it seems that the lack of strong self or disassociation might make a BPD a "stranger" in their own body to the point where they don't automatically know which hand is their right hand.  I can't imagine that either.

She was relatively smart but could only do well on non-application questions.  If you gave her a scenario and she had to parse it and come up with a solution based upon her knowledge, then she could not do well.  I think that is a deficit in the ability to think both in an organized and abstract manner.  This comes naturally to me however.  But when I do it I feel like I am partially "living" the problem, like I am inside it almost or it is in me and I visualize things to solve them.  Perhaps you have to have a strong "self" to be able to place an abstract version of yourself in various scenarios.

Also, pwBPD often seem to have a hard time knowing how they are going to affect someone else.  They can't put themselves in another's "shoes".  I think that requires building a "model" of the other person in your head and then going inside it or kinda tweaking some "knobs" to predict how the other will feel/react to your actions.  It is natural for most of us, especially if we know the other person pretty well.  My uBPDexgf seemed to suffer from a diminished ability to do this and seemed to use "checklists" for behavior.  For instance, she did not know or seem to care that ignoring and acting coldly/annoyed toward all children and pets in my family would make people in my family get a bad vibe about her.  Anyways, "walking a mile in someone's shoes" so you predict how you will influence them involves the type of thinking needed for application problems, in fact it is an application problem.  I'm thinking that is why it is often difficult for them.


Anyways, rant over.

[raisins3142]

Hi,

Trying to imagine not having a "sense of self" is sort of like trying to imagine infinity or 4 dimensional space or something.  I just can't wrap my head around it.

I have had mild disassociation for brief periods when anxious, etc., but not enough to really be distressing or make me feel that I might not "comeback".

Perhaps it is like that but on steroids?

Right now, I'm imagining scenarios and not having an automatic emotion or thought in relation to them that seems to come from the "me" that feels like it floats around in my head behind my eyes.  It is hard to do and almost scary when I kinda pulled it off!

Is it like that I wonder?

Anyone have a useful thought experiment, etc?

I'm imagining my uBPDexgf's facial expression.  Weak affect unless she was smiling purposefully and fakely and putting up a front of sorts.  She had what is called "resting b!tch face" as a result.  I think this lack of real expression when relaxed (just face drops) is kind of a red flag for me now.  Also, when she would drive by me, she would not be looking around or look over and waver or smile, like most people.  She would be staring blankly straight ahead and would not even turn her head to look over at me or acknowledge me at all.  Very weird.  I'm thinking when she is alone in the car, she might "disappear" and what I witnessed is the result.

Although she had specific tastes in regards to visual art, tv/movies, and books (all sci fi or fantasy), she had zero real taste in music.  She listened to whatever was on the pop music radio.  She never talked about a band she liked.  Owned no CDs or other music.  She just sang along with whatever style of music was currently popular and liked it all or at least listened to it all.  I've never met someone that seemed to have zero musical preference.  I would not even listen to music in that case.  

Also, she did not know her left from her right side.  She had to point to give directions and I could not tell her something like "the plate is to your left" as she did not process it.  I've heard this occurs in NONs, but it seems that the lack of strong self or disassociation might make a BPD a "stranger" in their own body to the point where they don't automatically know which hand is their right hand.  I can't imagine that either.

She was relatively smart but could only do well on non-application questions.  If you gave her a scenario and she had to parse it and come up with a solution based upon her knowledge, then she could not do well.  I think that is a deficit in the ability to think both in an organized and abstract manner.  This comes naturally to me however.  But when I do it I feel like I am partially "living" the problem, like I am inside it almost or it is in me and I visualize things to solve them.  Perhaps you have to have a strong "self" to be able to place an abstract version of yourself in various scenarios.

Also, pwBPD often seem to have a hard time knowing how they are going to affect someone else.  They can't put themselves in another's "shoes".  I think that requires building a "model" of the other person in your head and then going inside it or kinda tweaking some "knobs" to predict how the other will feel/react to your actions.  It is natural for most of us, especially if we know the other person pretty well.  My uBPDexgf seemed to suffer from a diminished ability to do this and seemed to use "checklists" for behavior.  For instance, she did not know or seem to care that ignoring and acting coldly/annoyed toward all children and pets in my family would make people in my family get a bad vibe about her.  Anyways, "walking a mile in someone's shoes" so you predict how you will influence them involves the type of thinking needed for application problems, in fact it is an application problem.  I'm thinking that is why it is often difficult for them.


Anyways, rant over.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I'm imagining my uBPDexgf's facial expression.  Weak affect unless she was smiling purposefully and fakely and putting up a front of sorts.  She had what is called "resting b!tch face" as a result.  I think this lack of real expression when relaxed (just face drops) is kind of a red flag for me now.

Just curious... .Is "resting b!tch face" something people are saying now? My uBPDgf told me I had "rbf" a couple days ago and that was the first time I'd heard the term. I was concentrating hard on my laptop screen and she said I looked angry, therefore "rbf".

[Blimblam]

It's not that they have "no self,". It is just a highly unstable sense of self.  Reading the book The search for the real self the personality disorders of our age by masterson I think will help you to understand the model from which the ideas you mention derive from. 

It is a bit like how we fuse our identity with the roles we take on mixed with the feeling of nightmares where you are chasing after something or being chased. 

[Alberto]

The way I experienced it, they simply change their character depending on the person they are with, the situation, or even the clothes they wear. When I first met my ex she had a bad breakup and the days she wore baggy tracksuits she was sad and demure, other days she dressed up and she was more confindent and femme fatale. With some friends she was really confident, but with me very submissive.

They either lack the inner strenght to be consistent on a role, or shape themselves to what they believe people expect from them, in hopes to be accepted I guess.

[raisins3142]

The way I experienced it, they simply change their character depending on the person they are with, the situation, or even the clothes they wear. When I first met my ex she had a bad breakup and the days she wore baggy tracksuits she was sad and demure, other days she dressed up and she was more confindent and femme fatale. With some friends she was really confident, but with me very submissive.

They either lack the inner strenght to be consistent on a role, or shape themselves to what they believe people expect from them, in hopes to be accepted I guess.

But is it the more typical case where someone remains themselves internally but can put on a show to be accepted/fit in OR is it more an actual internal change? 

Makes sense.  Mine was exactly like this.  Whenever we went out with her friend that is likely histrionic PD and is in an open relationship and cheated on her ex husband and flirts with everyone... .my uBPDexgf would spend her time shaking her butt and eye balling men and talking them up... .

Extremely impressionable.

Interestingly, when I took her around my friends, because I am confident and talkative, she would run off at the mouth and not let me talk.  I suppose trying to be outgoing and charming which she is not.

[fromheeltoheal]

Before we are born and slightly thereafter we cannot distinguish between ourselves from our mother; to us we're one person, which isn't a stretch since we are or just were inside her.  At some point it occurs to us that there is a 'me' and a 'her', two different entities, separate, and since she's separate, she may leave, and then what?  So we go through what's termed 'abandonment depression', a necessary step in developing an ego, on our way to becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, never successfully detaches from their primary caregiver, for a variety of reasons and in differing degrees, but the inability or lack of opportunity to face and weather the abandonment depression is the core of the disorder, sets up a lifetime of fear of abandonment, a reenactment of that original failure to detach and the feelings around it, and to your point, development of a 'self' stops at that point too, so borderlines look outside 'themselves' for attachments, again a reenactment of that earliest psychic fusing with their mother to create one 'whole' person.  So the unstable sense of self we read about here is a 'self', an ego, that is not fully formed, so it's unstable and subject to external influences and emotions, and therefore the 'self' that shows up is inconsistent, unpredictable and malleable, unlike most of us, who go through emotions that have impact yes, but who we 'are' under all that is relatively constant.  Psychobabble or helpful, or maybe both?

[Reecer1588]

I wanted to chime in here because I have a question of my own relating to this topic:

There is a drastic shift in the way my ex gf's eyes look in pictures from when she was dating me, to now (1.5 months strict NC)

I have asked probably a dozen people to look at the difference between her eyes from then and now, and they all use the same adjectives uniformly (it's weird), here's what they all say, "She looks: Completely empty, no happiness, like she's faking it, broken."

She doesn't have a new boyfriend, but she's been trying hard (it would appear) to attach to the girls on the equine team at here school. A way of coping, for sure. And I understand that it's not un-normal for people to be different after a breakup, but this isn't just me saying this, it's everyone I talk to.

She looks like two different people. Literally.

Here's my question:

Without me (Or a replacement), is the natural way my exgf would appear (her eyes, her smile)... .Empty?

I mean it's really just so sad to see. You see this girl with so much life in her face when she was with me, and now it's like, dead. Dead eyes. Dead smile. A few weeks ago she even pinned on her 'pinterest' a quote that reads: ":)on't die before your dead" 

Does anyone relate to what I'm saying here?

[raisins3142]

Reecer,

When my uBPDexgf was in the stage of devaluing me, she looked like an empty shell.

The "resting b!tch face" is what I called her lifeless expression.  Most folks, when they are relaxing or in a state of repose, usually have a thought or emotion that is occupying them.  It may be serious and so they look as if introspection or they might be slightly happy or amused.  For instance, even when alone, my lips naturally turn up slightly at the edges and my eyes are not "dead" looking.

When my ex was emotionally detaching from me, her expression was: a scowl that is not really a frown but just no emotion influencing your mouth and dead eyes that just kind of stared vacantly.  Hate to say, but the cliche look of actors playing patients in mental wards in movies.

This is contrasted to her look when idealizing me, which was full of life.

And what was the worst is when during the devaluation time when I took her around people she would perk up and seem more lively.

Just horrible and zombie like when she was dysregulated/devaluing.

Was horrible to even look at, can't imagine living it.  But stupidly, I thought she was like this around me because of how she was feeling about me specifically.  I thought because I was pretty easygoing and trying to make her happy during this that she was behaving/looking like this specifically to hurt/reject me.  It was very consistent and so my mind immediately went to "she is unhappy with me specifically and so this is how she looks when upset or whatever".  I was just watching her in hell, I think.

[Reecer1588]

Reecer,

When my uBPDexgf was in the stage of devaluing me, she looked like an empty shell.

The "resting b!tch face" is what I called her lifeless expression.  Most folks, when they are relaxing or in a state of repose, usually have a thought or emotion that is occupying them.  It may be serious and so they look as if introspection or they might be slightly happy or amused.  For instance, even when alone, my lips naturally turn up slightly at the edges and my eyes are not "dead" looking.

When my ex was emotionally detaching from me, her expression was: a scowl that is not really a frown but just no emotion influencing your mouth and dead eyes that just kind of stared vacantly.  Hate to say, but the cliche look of actors playing patients in mental wards in movies.

This is contrasted to her look when idealizing me, which was full of life.

And what was the worst is when during the devaluation time when I took her around people she would perk up and seem more lively.

Just horrible and zombie like when she was dysregulated/devaluing.

Was horrible to even look at, can't imagine living it.  But stupidly, I thought she was like this around me because of how she was feeling about me specifically.  I thought because I was pretty easygoing and trying to make her happy during this that she was behaving/looking like this specifically to hurt/reject me.  It was very consistent and so my mind immediately went to "she is unhappy with me specifically and so this is how she looks when upset or whatever".  I was just watching her in hell, I think.

Good points. Sorry to hear about that, raisins. May I ask you, did you know if she continued to look empty after you went NC?Maybe even worse? Here's why I ask, my ex's devaluing wasn't overnight nor was it constant. Even late in the game, she'd perk up and be really happy around me (talk about intermittent reinforcement). But now that she went nuts/psycho on me, and has gone to this state deafening silence towards me, I would say that mine looks 4-5 times more "empty" now that we're nearing day 50 of NC. You'd think that because of her lack of object constancy and well, you know, hating my guts, she wouldn't still look that way. But from her pictures to her pinterest, one can easily ascertain that she's just in emotional turmoil. Like I said though, we're nearing 50 days out, she shouldn't look so empty still, should already have a new boyfriend. And yet... .

See what I'm saying here?

[raisins3142]

Reecer,

When my uBPDexgf was in the stage of devaluing me, she looked like an empty shell.

The "resting b!tch face" is what I called her lifeless expression.  Most folks, when they are relaxing or in a state of repose, usually have a thought or emotion that is occupying them.  It may be serious and so they look as if introspection or they might be slightly happy or amused.  For instance, even when alone, my lips naturally turn up slightly at the edges and my eyes are not "dead" looking.

When my ex was emotionally detaching from me, her expression was: a scowl that is not really a frown but just no emotion influencing your mouth and dead eyes that just kind of stared vacantly.  Hate to say, but the cliche look of actors playing patients in mental wards in movies.

This is contrasted to her look when idealizing me, which was full of life.

And what was the worst is when during the devaluation time when I took her around people she would perk up and seem more lively.

Just horrible and zombie like when she was dysregulated/devaluing.

Was horrible to even look at, can't imagine living it.  But stupidly, I thought she was like this around me because of how she was feeling about me specifically.  I thought because I was pretty easygoing and trying to make her happy during this that she was behaving/looking like this specifically to hurt/reject me.  It was very consistent and so my mind immediately went to "she is unhappy with me specifically and so this is how she looks when upset or whatever".  I was just watching her in hell, I think.

Good points. Sorry to hear about that, raisins. May I ask you, did you know if she continued to look empty after you went NC?Maybe even worse? Here's why I ask, my ex's devaluing wasn't overnight nor was it constant. Even late in the game, she'd perk up and be really happy around me (talk about intermittent reinforcement). But now that she went nuts/psycho on me, and has gone to this state deafening silence towards me, I would say that mine looks 4-5 times more "empty" now that we're nearing day 50 of NC. You'd think that because of her lack of object constancy and well, you know, hating my guts, she wouldn't still look that way. But from her pictures to her pinterest, one can easily ascertain that she's just in emotional turmoil. Like I said though, we're nearing 50 days out, she shouldn't look so empty still, should already have a new boyfriend. And yet... .

See what I'm saying here?

Why a new BF after 50 days, you think?  I'm guessing due to BPD and the usual traits?

I have no clue about her now.  I saw some public pics of her on instagram and she looks okay.  But those are pics of her around people that she chose to show on social media.  She shares selfies every now and then (any at all is a bit weird to me from a 30 something) and she takes a bunch and selects the best in order to give the impression she'd like.  I saw her doing this in real time.  She is also very good at faking things for a short time and also fake smiles in pics.  She looks the same in every picture I've seen of her.  So, she selected a few to share and that is not an impression that means much to me as far as reality.

Now, knowing what I know of her social media picture practices, if I saw a picture of her looking like crap, I'd be scared for her.

I don't know anything about your ex though and what anything might mean for her.

My ex is 33.  She has had more practice being fake and fooling others than yours has.

It might depend upon if others took the pics or not.

My ex would never allow others to take pics of her and to share them, at least she avoided that.  She wanted "control over the message" so to speak.

Also, it depends on whether the pics are candid or posed.  If my ex had candid photos of her online, she would hate that because it would not be pics of her smiling in a trademark way.

Just things to think of, wish I could be more help.

My impression is that she is stilling renting a lot of room in your head.  That's fine.  I've been there and still am there a bit.  But I am trying to move away from that.  Are you?  I feel unwell when I obsess over my ex, which I sometimes do.  It is often triggered by feelings of loneliness or certain things that remind me of her.  Maybe these pics are triggers for you?

[Alberto]

The way I experienced it, they simply change their character depending on the person they are with, the situation, or even the clothes they wear. When I first met my ex she had a bad breakup and the days she wore baggy tracksuits she was sad and demure, other days she dressed up and she was more confindent and femme fatale. With some friends she was really confident, but with me very submissive.

They either lack the inner strenght to be consistent on a role, or shape themselves to what they believe people expect from them, in hopes to be accepted I guess.

But is it the more typical case where someone remains themselves internally but can put on a show to be accepted/fit in OR is it more an actual internal change? 

Makes sense.  Mine was exactly like this.  Whenever we went out with her friend that is likely histrionic PD and is in an open relationship and cheated on her ex husband and flirts with everyone... .my uBPDexgf would spend her time shaking her butt and eye balling men and talking them up... .

Extremely impressionable.

Interestingly, when I took her around my friends, because I am confident and talkative, she would run off at the mouth and not let me talk.  I suppose trying to be outgoing and charming which she is not.

In my experience they probably feel they are boring and uninteresting, that would explain the drug use and the victimism. When you know you can bring something to a relationship you don't need external agents and/or drama to shape social dynamics.                                                                   

[Reecer1588]

Reecer,

When my uBPDexgf was in the stage of devaluing me, she looked like an empty shell.

The "resting b!tch face" is what I called her lifeless expression.  Most folks, when they are relaxing or in a state of repose, usually have a thought or emotion that is occupying them.  It may be serious and so they look as if introspection or they might be slightly happy or amused.  For instance, even when alone, my lips naturally turn up slightly at the edges and my eyes are not "dead" looking.

When my ex was emotionally detaching from me, her expression was: a scowl that is not really a frown but just no emotion influencing your mouth and dead eyes that just kind of stared vacantly.  Hate to say, but the cliche look of actors playing patients in mental wards in movies.

This is contrasted to her look when idealizing me, which was full of life.

And what was the worst is when during the devaluation time when I took her around people she would perk up and seem more lively.

Just horrible and zombie like when she was dysregulated/devaluing.

Was horrible to even look at, can't imagine living it.  But stupidly, I thought she was like this around me because of how she was feeling about me specifically.  I thought because I was pretty easygoing and trying to make her happy during this that she was behaving/looking like this specifically to hurt/reject me.  It was very consistent and so my mind immediately went to "she is unhappy with me specifically and so this is how she looks when upset or whatever".  I was just watching her in hell, I think.

Good points. Sorry to hear about that, raisins. May I ask you, did you know if she continued to look empty after you went NC?Maybe even worse? Here's why I ask, my ex's devaluing wasn't overnight nor was it constant. Even late in the game, she'd perk up and be really happy around me (talk about intermittent reinforcement). But now that she went nuts/psycho on me, and has gone to this state deafening silence towards me, I would say that mine looks 4-5 times more "empty" now that we're nearing day 50 of NC. You'd think that because of her lack of object constancy and well, you know, hating my guts, she wouldn't still look that way. But from her pictures to her pinterest, one can easily ascertain that she's just in emotional turmoil. Like I said though, we're nearing 50 days out, she shouldn't look so empty still, should already have a new boyfriend. And yet... .

See what I'm saying here?

Why a new BF after 50 days, you think?  I'm guessing due to BPD and the usual traits?

I have no clue about her now.  I saw some public pics of her on instagram and she looks okay.  But those are pics of her around people that she chose to show on social media.  She shares selfies every now and then (any at all is a bit weird to me from a 30 something) and she takes a bunch and selects the best in order to give the impression she'd like.  I saw her doing this in real time.  She is also very good at faking things for a short time and also fake smiles in pics.  She looks the same in every picture I've seen of her.  So, she selected a few to share and that is not an impression that means much to me as far as reality.

Now, knowing what I know of her social media picture practices, if I saw a picture of her looking like crap, I'd be scared for her.

I don't know anything about your ex though and what anything might mean for her.

My ex is 33.  She has had more practice being fake and fooling others than yours has.

It might depend upon if others took the pics or not.

My ex would never allow others to take pics of her and to share them, at least she avoided that.  She wanted "control over the message" so to speak.

Also, it depends on whether the pics are candid or posed.  If my ex had candid photos of her online, she would hate that because it would not be pics of her smiling in a trademark way.

Just things to think of, wish I could be more help.

My impression is that she is stilling renting a lot of room in your head.  That's fine.  I've been there and still am there a bit.  But I am trying to move away from that.  Are you?  I feel unwell when I obsess over my ex, which I sometimes do.  It is often triggered by feelings of loneliness or certain things that remind me of her.  Maybe these pics are triggers for you?

I actually meant that my ex does Not have a new boyfriend. Anyways, yes these pictured are likely triggers for me and therefore it's been a while since I've looked at them. She rents less space in my head now certainly than before. This is nice.


Also, alberto: I have to agree with the idea that they really do find themselves uninteresting. This was certainly true in my case. I doubt it's universal though.

[JRT]

Hi,

Trying to imagine not having a "sense of self" is sort of like trying to imagine infinity or 4 dimensional space or something.  I just can't wrap my head around it.

I have had mild disassociation for brief periods when anxious, etc., but not enough to really be distressing or make me feel that I might not "comeback".

Perhaps it is like that but on steroids?

Right now, I'm imagining scenarios and not having an automatic emotion or thought in relation to them that seems to come from the "me" that feels like it floats around in my head behind my eyes.  It is hard to do and almost scary when I kinda pulled it off!

Is it like that I wonder?

Anyone have a useful thought experiment, etc?

I'm imagining my uBPDexgf's facial expression.  Weak affect unless she was smiling purposefully and fakely and putting up a front of sorts.  She had what is called "resting b!tch face" as a result.  I think this lack of real expression when relaxed (just face drops) is kind of a red flag for me now.  Also, when she would drive by me, she would not be looking around or look over and waver or smile, like most people.  She would be staring blankly straight ahead and would not even turn her head to look over at me or acknowledge me at all.  Very weird.  I'm thinking when she is alone in the car, she might "disappear" and what I witnessed is the result.

Although she had specific tastes in regards to visual art, tv/movies, and books (all sci fi or fantasy), she had zero real taste in music.  She listened to whatever was on the pop music radio.  She never talked about a band she liked.  Owned no CDs or other music.  She just sang along with whatever style of music was currently popular and liked it all or at least listened to it all.  I've never met someone that seemed to have zero musical preference.  I would not even listen to music in that case.  

Also, she did not know her left from her right side.  She had to point to give directions and I could not tell her something like "the plate is to your left" as she did not process it.  I've heard this occurs in NONs, but it seems that the lack of strong self or disassociation might make a BPD a "stranger" in their own body to the point where they don't automatically know which hand is their right hand.  I can't imagine that either.

She was relatively smart but could only do well on non-application questions.  If you gave her a scenario and she had to parse it and come up with a solution based upon her knowledge, then she could not do well.  I think that is a deficit in the ability to think both in an organized and abstract manner.  This comes naturally to me however.  But when I do it I feel like I am partially "living" the problem, like I am inside it almost or it is in me and I visualize things to solve them.  Perhaps you have to have a strong "self" to be able to place an abstract version of yourself in various scenarios.

Also, pwBPD often seem to have a hard time knowing how they are going to affect someone else.  They can't put themselves in another's "shoes".  I think that requires building a "model" of the other person in your head and then going inside it or kinda tweaking some "knobs" to predict how the other will feel/react to your actions.  It is natural for most of us, especially if we know the other person pretty well.  My uBPDexgf seemed to suffer from a diminished ability to do this and seemed to use "checklists" for behavior.  For instance, she did not know or seem to care that ignoring and acting coldly/annoyed toward all children and pets in my family would make people in my family get a bad vibe about her.  Anyways, "walking a mile in someone's shoes" so you predict how you will influence them involves the type of thinking needed for application problems, in fact it is an application problem.  I'm thinking that is why it is often difficult for them.


Anyways, rant over.

Wow... .seems like yours had a greater sense of self and identity than mine did.

Mine was a bit like tofu... .in social situations, she often times just clung to whatever was familiar. The first time she met some of my friends, she was VERY clingy to me and didn't at all interact with anyone.

She immersed herself a bit in my activities and life, going to my performances, managing my website (at her insistence), taking it upon herself to sell my photography, surprisingly announcing that she was going to take a college level class in my family language (never mind that I don't speak it much any longer), moving closer to me etc. She painted a bit, but a canvas that she had began a year before I had met her collected dust for the entire 2 years of my r/s with her. She wasn't into music, we watched 2 movies during our entire r/s (and she fell asleep both times), didn't really read, etc, etc. She was just not into ANYTHING.

What did occupy her time was trying to corral her WAY out of control teen-aged son and her smart phone - all drama and chaos. This is what gave her life meaning... .she thrived on it and seemed really unhappy when there was none. She was actually excitable and engaged when something bad was going down. That is what she needed in order to define her life, otherwise, her life was bereft of purpose. |

At the point that she left, her son moved out and she moved into my house. This was the point where she likely achieved the most placid and peaceful point in her life. Yet, I noticed where she had attempted to introduce chaos and conflict here and there. Its the only thing that she knew and I very quietly shut it down (not even really realizing that she was manufacturing it) by mere problem solving.

Although I think that there were triggers to her flight, I think that this peaceful environment freaked her out as much as living in a foreign country would have been to us with no hope of ever learning the language and customs. Forever a foreigner... .

[raisins3142]

Reecer,

Sorry for the odd wording.  I meant to ask why do you think it is odd that she does not have a new BF after 50 days?  People often take that long or longer.  Is it her past history of always having a BF?  Or what you read here about BPD?  Or something else?  Just curious.

[lm911]

My exed used to say that she did not have any taste in fashion, did not have any hobbies, did not have any interests. They are f****ed up people who tried to f******* us but we survived.

[Blimblam]

The way I saw the unstable sense of self in my ex was the way she mirrored and enabled the social narrative she was surrounded by.  I see this to some extent somewhat common but with my ex she would get caught up in the enthusiasm of it and was not really critical of the core values or even the authenticity or underlying intention of the narrative. This is partly why she was so attractive because of the way she reflected back that enthusiasm so thoroughly.  Depending on who she was with at the time she would meet them where they were at in themself at the time in such a way that the person would feel safe enough to get to a place in themself that they felt enthusiastic.  She had her own things she enjoyed doing but she was reliant on others for her enthusiasm and narrative of her life which she experienced through mirroring.

[fromheeltoheal]

Here's another way to look at it: you know that voice in your head, the one that just said 'what voice?'  Someone completely without a 'self' wouldn't have a voice, dead silence, and someone with an unstable sense of self would have a different voice depending on mood and circumstances.  And if there's an attachment, that voice may sound just like the attachment, since in a borderline's head they are one person.  Ever notice how borderlines morph into whomever they're with?  That comes out of adopting that person's voice, or at least their interpretation of it; mirroring serves to form attachments yes, but also to subsume a 'self'.

For extra credit, where did your voice come from?  Is it the voice of a critical parent?  A loving one?  One connected directly to your heart and pure?  Is it all of those at different times?

[Conundrum]

On point.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209941.0

[Pingo]

Here's another way to look at it: you know that voice in your head, the one that just said 'what voice?'  Someone completely without a 'self' wouldn't have a voice, dead silence, and someone with an unstable sense of self would have a different voice depending on mood and circumstances.  And if there's an attachment, that voice may sound just like the attachment, since in a borderline's head they are one person.  Ever notice how borderlines morph into whomever they're with?  That comes out of adopting that person's voice, or at least their interpretation of it; mirroring serves to form attachments yes, but also to subsume a 'self'.

For extra credit, where did your voice come from?  Is it the voice of a critical parent?  A loving one?  One connected directly to your heart and pure?  Is it all of those at different times?

Interesting as always fromheeltoheal (love your posts!)... .when mine tried to meditate he said he didn't have that continual tape playing like we all do... .the thoughts that pop up that distract us where we have to re-center ourselves... .he said it was just emptiness, no thoughts would pop up. Just black. I thought that was very strange since I've read lots about meditation and even seasoned pros have to bring their awareness back to their breath or whatever.  Now that is making some sense looking at it from this perspective.

Before we are born and slightly thereafter we cannot distinguish between ourselves from our mother; to us we're one person, which isn't a stretch since we are or just were inside her.  At some point it occurs to us that there is a 'me' and a 'her', two different entities, separate, and since she's separate, she may leave, and then what?  So we go through what's termed 'abandonment depression', a necessary step in developing an ego, on our way to becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, never successfully detaches from their primary caregiver, for a variety of reasons and in differing degrees, but the inability or lack of opportunity to face and weather the abandonment depression is the core of the disorder, sets up a lifetime of fear of abandonment, a reenactment of that original failure to detach and the feelings around it, and to your point, development of a 'self' stops at that point too, so borderlines look outside 'themselves' for attachments, again a reenactment of that earliest psychic fusing with their mother to create one 'whole' person.  So the unstable sense of self we read about here is a 'self', an ego, that is not fully formed, so it's unstable and subject to external influences and emotions, and therefore the 'self' that shows up is inconsistent, unpredictable and malleable, unlike most of us, who go through emotions that have impact yes, but who we 'are' under all that is relatively constant.  Psychobabble or helpful, or maybe both?

This is excellent and very helpful! I just wanted to point out that it's not just those with BPD that missed this important development stage. Many of us who have 'not good enough' parents have also missed this development stage, maybe to a lesser degree. This is what has led many of us to become so enmeshed with our SO and not maintain our own identities and boundaries.

[fromheeltoheal]

Before we are born and slightly thereafter we cannot distinguish between ourselves from our mother; to us we're one person, which isn't a stretch since we are or just were inside her.  At some point it occurs to us that there is a 'me' and a 'her', two different entities, separate, and since she's separate, she may leave, and then what?  So we go through what's termed 'abandonment depression', a necessary step in developing an ego, on our way to becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, never successfully detaches from their primary caregiver, for a variety of reasons and in differing degrees, but the inability or lack of opportunity to face and weather the abandonment depression is the core of the disorder, sets up a lifetime of fear of abandonment, a reenactment of that original failure to detach and the feelings around it, and to your point, development of a 'self' stops at that point too, so borderlines look outside 'themselves' for attachments, again a reenactment of that earliest psychic fusing with their mother to create one 'whole' person.  So the unstable sense of self we read about here is a 'self', an ego, that is not fully formed, so it's unstable and subject to external influences and emotions, and therefore the 'self' that shows up is inconsistent, unpredictable and malleable, unlike most of us, who go through emotions that have impact yes, but who we 'are' under all that is relatively constant.  Psychobabble or helpful, or maybe both?

This is excellent and very helpful! I just wanted to point out that it's not just those with BPD that missed this important development stage. Many of us who have 'not good enough' parents have also missed this development stage, maybe to a lesser degree. This is what has led many of us to become so enmeshed with our SO and not maintain our own identities and boundaries.

Yes, there are many stages in becoming an autonomous individual, and many ways to screw it up, and a critical component is the level of nurturing present in the environment as we go through them.  Specifically, the failure to detach and weather the abandonment depression is what 'causes' BPD, with its lifelong focus on fear of abandonment, but there are plenty of other speedbumps and potholes on the way and very few people make it through near perfectly, although we all know people who have.  Then again, what if humans are perfectly imperfect, stumbling towards bliss, one post at a time?  I'm runnin' with it... .

[Reecer1588]

Reecer,

Sorry for the odd wording.  I meant to ask why do you think it is odd that she does not have a new BF after 50 days?  People often take that long or longer.  Is it her past history of always having a BF?  Or what you read here about BPD?  Or something else?  Just curious.

Yeah I guess it is a bit odd. I've read countless stories on here and I'd say Mine is in the small, small minority where they don't have someone lined up already ready to attach to. No she has not always had boyfriends. I was her first real, long lasting intimate relationship.

What I have read is that without someone to latch onto, they can be really empty. My only point with the pictures was that her eyes really do reflect that.

But trying to make order of disorder, I'm starting to understand that it isn't possible.

You give valuable insight, raisins. Thanks man!