How to tell the difference between enabling and being a supportive spouse

[vortex of confusion]

I was sharing my story with somebody in real life. I related something that happened early in our marriage and was told, "Sounds like you learned to enable early on."

That comment hit me like a ton of bricks. First off, I was only 23 or so when the incident happened. That was almost 17 years ago. The story was that when we were first married, I would wake up in the morning and go to the living room. As I was walking down the hall, I would look up and see my husband on the computer doing his thing (porn, etc.). A lot of the time, I would turn around and go back to bed because I didn't want to see that crap and I didn't want to fight about it. I would usually bring it up later and we would talk about it. Usually, it was dismissed as, "I didn't want to wake you up." Or, there were times that I didn't see a need to make a big deal about it as I think a lot of guys tend to look at porn. This is all ancient history and hasn't happened in a really, really long time as it was before we had any kids.

At the time, I didn't see it as an issue because it hadn't been established as a pervasive pattern. And, my life was pretty full and not having relations with my husband in the morning wasn't something that I was going to make a fuss over. The comment about me being enabling going back to the beginning made me angry and then it had me wondering how the heck a person can figure out the difference between enabling and being a supportive spouse.

I know that I have done a lot of things that a lot of people would consider enabling. I didn't see it as enabling. I saw it as doing what a committed and supportive spouse would do. I saw it as being a partner. In some ways, I feel like I was trying to live out a more Biblical version of marriage. Maybe I am in denial. I feel like I have tried to do everything "right" and live MY values. My values are being kind, being forgiving, being supportive, being understanding, and not sweating the small stuff.

IF somebody takes advantage of me because of my values, does that mean that I enabled them?

I am rambling and am not sure if I am making any sense. Would like some thoughts or input on this so I can clarify some things in my own mind.

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[ColdEthyl]

That's a great question, VoC. I've wondered this myself. For an example, my H does not work and I do. For me, this is not a problem because he does bring in disability, and I'd rather be working a full time job and not be home all of the time. But some people see this as enabling. He's on disability for a reason. He cannot hold a job, and he never will be able to.

[shatterd]

me again relateing the job issue ya   iwas mean as hell to her   that wood be us being normal of course   enabling them only if they lay around all day and do nothing   what i figured out tho  if they do the house hold thing clean cook blah blah blah  thats there job  responiabilty   my expeirence    was thos workd great there was happiness  yeah! howevr the impulseiveness of her and the inabilty to maintain normal stable life makes this imposable  want to be paid for cleaning ur own house or waching ur own kids  please   then the bordum gets to her  oops now our lil spending habit kiks back in  yup screwd again  and then i worry about is this the day i come home and my house is empty and there gone again   not saying evryones thing is the same  but i know how this is also   :'(

[vortex of confusion]

That's a great question, VoC. I've wondered this myself. For an example, my H does not work and I do. For me, this is not a problem because he does bring in disability, and I'd rather be working a full time job and not be home all of the time. But some people see this as enabling. He's on disability for a reason. He cannot hold a job, and he never will be able to.

The confusion or sticking point for me is that I am told to stop worrying about what my husband is or isn't doing. In the early years, that is what I did a lot of the time. I didn't make a big deal out of things because he was living his life and I was living mine. I set boundaries around porn when I got pregnant with my oldest daughter. I told him that I did NOT want that crap in my house. I was very serious about that and he knew that I checked the computers and that all hell would break loose if I found that stuff in my house. Sure, there were things that he did that irritated me but I didn't make a fuss out of it because I saw it as MY issue.

My values are to be helpful and kind. I try to perform random acts of kindness whenever possible even if it something small like holding the door open for others. One time, there was a little kid at the store ahead of me and he was short on tax. It was a couple of cents so I gave it to him. That kind of stuff feels good to me. I feel like the core of who I am is being questioned and is now being labeled as "enabling". It is a source of irritation for me.

[ColdEthyl]

That's a great question, VoC. I've wondered this myself. For an example, my H does not work and I do. For me, this is not a problem because he does bring in disability, and I'd rather be working a full time job and not be home all of the time. But some people see this as enabling. He's on disability for a reason. He cannot hold a job, and he never will be able to.

The confusion or sticking point for me is that I am told to stop worrying about what my husband is or isn't doing. In the early years, that is what I did a lot of the time. I didn't make a big deal out of things because he was living his life and I was living mine. I set boundaries around porn when I got pregnant with my oldest daughter. I told him that I did NOT want that crap in my house. I was very serious about that and he knew that I checked the computers and that all hell would break loose if I found that stuff in my house. Sure, there were things that he did that irritated me but I didn't make a fuss out of it because I saw it as MY issue.

My values are to be helpful and kind. I try to perform random acts of kindness whenever possible even if it something small like holding the door open for others. One time, there was a little kid at the store ahead of me and he was short on tax. It was a couple of cents so I gave it to him. That kind of stuff feels good to me. I feel like the core of who I am is being questioned and is now being labeled as "enabling". It is a source of irritation for me.

*nods* I don't see what you have done in this example as enabling. In fact, you made a boundary and stuck with it. As far as your previous example when you mentioned you didn't want to deal with it first thing in the morning, well... .perhaps the listener saw inaction as enabling. But, if you addressed the issue later on your own terms... .I can't see that as enabling.

I often get confused with what's enabling and what's helping. I am like you... .I like being helpful by nature, so often I do enjoy doing things for my family and loved ones.

[ColdEthyl]

me again relateing the job issue ya   iwas mean as hell to her   that wood be us being normal of course   enabling them only if they lay around all day and do nothing   what i figured out tho  if they do the house hold thing clean cook blah blah blah  thats there job  responiabilty   my expeirence    was thos workd great there was happiness  yeah! howevr the impulseiveness of her and the inabilty to maintain normal stable life makes this imposable  want to be paid for cleaning ur own house or waching ur own kids  please   then the bordum gets to her  oops now our lil spending habit kiks back in  yup screwd again  and then i worry about is this the day i come home and my house is empty and there gone again   not saying evryones thing is the same  but i know how this is also   :'(

I'm working on my husband doing 1 chore a week. If I ask any more than that, it won't happen. He doesn't actually do a whole lot at home.

[takingandsending]

Hi VOC.

I think the person judging you wasn't really helpful. But this part here is probably the part that contains some enabling.

A lot of the time, I would turn around and go back to bed because I didn't want to see that crap and I didn't want to fight about it. I would usually bring it up later and we would talk about it. Usually, it was dismissed as, "I didn't want to wake you up." Or, there were times that I didn't see a need to make a big deal about it as I think a lot of guys tend to look at porn.

You were going to do something (getting up out of bed), stopped what you were doing based on seeing your husband engaged in something that ran contrary to your core values. And when you voiced your values and they were dismissed, you normalized his behavior v. working through how it made you feel about you. That's the enabling.

And it's common. A lot of us do it. All relationships parent-child, spouses, colleagues require some level of interdependence. There is always some level of enabling and dependence occurring. It's when we allow it to become very out of balance that it becomes a problem. I am no exception to that. I still am doing it with my kids. I love them. I don't want them to hurt. I tend to rescue rather than allow them to experience the world of cause and effect. Being with my BPD wife has done what no other teaching experience could do - it gives me pause before I jump into rescue, makes me consider if I am doing it for them of for me. I still believe I am a good person. I will always err on the side of liking people v. not trusting. But, I need to be there for myself to, and I only have myself to blame if I am not.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm working on my husband doing 1 chore a week. If I ask any more than that, it won't happen. He doesn't actually do a whole lot at home.

You can't change him. You can only change yourself.

Trying to change somebody else is futile.

Allowing them to be themselves is enabling.

Hmmmm. . .

[vortex of confusion]

You were going to do something (getting up out of bed), stopped what you were doing based on seeing your husband engaged in something that ran contrary to your core values. And when you voiced your values and they were dismissed, you normalized his behavior v. working through how it made you feel about you. That's the enabling.

Making a conscious choice to NOT stick around is enabling? Making a conscious choice to give somebody the benefit of the doubt is enabling? I know how it made me feel about me. It made me feel rejected and worthless and unattractive to my husband. How it made me feel is about me not him. Why are my feelings HIS responsibility? My feelings are MY responsibility.

[ColdEthyl]

I'm working on my husband doing 1 chore a week. If I ask any more than that, it won't happen. He doesn't actually do a whole lot at home.

You can't change him. You can only change yourself.

Trying to change somebody else is futile.

Allowing them to be themselves is enabling.

Hmmmm. . .

I know it confuses me too. I haven't told or talked to him about wanting him to do more chores, rather I've been using the communication tools to get him going. Once we cross this hurdle, I'll try 2 a week. He's still changing himself. He' still doing it... .I'm not threatening him with anything to force him, and I not doing the chores for him.

[takingandsending]

VOC, I may not understand the story that well, and I can understand why my response has upset you. Can I ask how did you feel when you went back to bed? Were you taking care of yourself at that moment? If the answer is no, what might it have looked like if you were taking care of yourself at that moment?

You have said that his actions made you felt rejected, worthless and unattractive. Is it possible that you made his feelings (whatever was driving him to do what he was doing) your responsibility?

I am concerned that this is coming across as criticism - not my intent. I am recognizing things that I do, stuff that I take on that was never mine to own, to avoid being in conflict, to avoid having a boundary. It may be totally not the same in your case. There are a lot of small ways that I betray myself, what I know and believe in, to keep calm waters. Your story seemed similar to those behaviors in myself. And again, it becomes "enabling" when it becomes imbalanced and habitual.

[shatterd]

this were i feel  quilty  like its my fault   we set boundries  and lack of informing me about what was goin on  i beleive is what leads to some this leaving crap   i cant do it by myself  iam understanding of this condition  but im firm on  i cant keep helping someone that isnt willng to help them selfs 

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, I may not understand the story that well, and I can understand why my response has upset you. Can I ask how did you feel when you went back to bed? Were you taking care of yourself at that moment? If the answer is no, what might it have looked like if you were taking care of yourself at that moment?

Yes, I was taking care of myself. I did not want to fight and I did not want to see what he was looking at. I would have felt a lot worse if I had gone out to the living room and confronted him. I went back to bed, cried, and went back to sleep. I am NOT a morning person. I know this about myself. The best thing that I could have done is gone back to bed.

You have said that his actions made you felt rejected, worthless and unattractive. Is it possible that you made his feelings (whatever was driving him to do what he was doing) your responsibility?

How could I have made it my responsibility? It wasn't until much, much later in the marriage that I started feeling responsible for anything. And that was only after doing a lot of reading about how to be a better wife.

I am concerned that this is coming across as criticism - not my intent. I am recognizing things that I do, stuff that I take on that was never mine to own, to avoid being in conflict, to avoid having a boundary. It may be totally not the same in your case. There are a lot of small ways that I betray myself, what I know and believe in, to keep calm waters. Your story seemed similar to those behaviors in myself. And again, it becomes "enabling" when it becomes imbalanced and habitual.

He was looking at porn. His choice. I felt rejected. My feelings. I went back to bed. My choice. If I choose not engage in conflict, that is still my choice. That is still ME trying to live MY values. I had a boundary. My boundary is that I was not going to stand around and watch or be a part of his morning routine.

I sometimes feel like labeling certain behaviors as enabling is another way to place the blame on me.

[OffRoad]

If his looking at porn was an addiction, then you supported his addiction by not enacting a boundary that porn is not allowed in the house (as you did later when you had children). That is enabling.

If it was not an addiction, but simply something you didn't like, while you cannot change him, you can change yourself and what you will put up with.

If you were willing to let him look at porn whenever he wanted, that was your choice, no problem.

But if you had told him previously how much it bothered you and that you would like it if he did not do it when you were in the house, and you then ignored that he still did it while you were in the house (ignoring even for a little while is enabling), that could be considered enabling behavior. You have enabled him to disrespect you. It all depends on the situation. Possibly the way the story was told sounded like enabling to your friend.

For example, I ran into an instance where my H had gotten himself to a porn site on the kid's computer. By looking at the history, I could tell he was looking up Harry Potter, and ended up at this site(this was many years ago). His getting to the site was not the problem. The entry page was not offensive. However, he went INTO the site and all that garbage was in the temp files. (I mean, I found it by accident... .). I set a boundary for the kids and myself: he was NEVER allowed to access a porn site on the kids computer again or we were done. (This is a deal breaker for me-no porn around the kids). If he had done it again, and I hadn't followed through, that would have been enabling behavior on my part. (He was very remorseful and it never happened again)

[OffRoad]

this were i feel  quilty  like its my fault   we set boundries  and lack of informing me about what was goin on  i beleive is what leads to some this leaving crap   i cant do it by myself  iam understanding of this condition  but im firm on  i cant keep helping someone that isnt willng to help them selfs 

shatterd, do you have the ability to use punctuation on whatever you are posting on?  I can't quite tell where the sentences start and end, so I'm having a hard time sorting out some of what you are saying. If you don't, I'll do my best to figure it out.

TIA

[vortex of confusion]

If his looking at porn was an addiction, then you supported his addiction by not enacting a boundary that porn is not allowed in the house (as you did later when you had children). That is enabling.

How in the world was I supposed to know that it was an addiction?

I was making decisions based on the information that I had at the time.

But if you had told him previously how much it bothered you and that you would like it if he did not do it when you were in the house, and you then ignored that he still did it while you were in the house (ignoring even for a little while is enabling), that could be considered enabling behavior. You have enabled him to disrespect you. It all depends on the situation. Possibly the way the story was told sounded like enabling to your friend.

The funny thing is that I didn't really care about the porn. The porn itself wasn't the issue. For me, the  issue was that he chose porn over me. You could just as easily substitute a video game, books, or anything else into the equation. Two people trying to figure out how to live together and figure out what expectations are realistic and which ones are not does not equal enabling. I think there should be room for partners to be different. Different people have different needs within a relationship.

[shatterd]

yes sry, i will improve my grammer skills, for now i used spaces between points, some of this is just shared thoughts or venting

[OffRoad]

How in the world was I supposed to know that it was an addiction?

I was making decisions based on the information that I had at the time.

My supposition was if you knew it was an addiction. Of course you couldn't know if it was an addiction or not until it proved itself an addiction.

The funny thing is that I didn't really care about the porn. The porn itself wasn't the issue. For me, the  issue was that he chose porn over me. You could just as easily substitute a video game, books, or anything else into the equation. Two people trying to figure out how to live together and figure out what expectations are realistic and which ones are not does not equal enabling. I think there should be room for partners to be different. Different people have different needs within a relationship.

The enabling only occurs when there is a behavior that has been discussed as being detrimental, the behavior continues, and the person without the behavior ignores the problem, joins in, accepts the justifications for the behavior, avoids the problem, doesn't let the person with the behavior suffer the consequences of their actions, rescues them, controls them, tries to "fix" them, continues to bail them out and keeps giving them "one more chance" again and again.

If none of these things applies to anything you discussed about your relationship with your friend, then assume she misheard and move on.  If it does apply, then consider if you were an enabler or not. Take anything valid and use it to better yourself and throw the rest away.

[patientandclear]

You can't change him. You can only change yourself.

Trying to change somebody else is futile.

Allowing them to be themselves is enabling.

Hmmmm. . .

I haven't finished reading this thread but I hope someone can help answer this contradiction, because it confuses me greatly too, VOC.

[Turkish]

You can't change him. You can only change yourself.

Trying to change somebody else is futile.

Allowing them to be themselves is enabling.

Hmmmm. . .

I haven't finished reading this thread but I hope someone can help answer this contradiction, because it confuses me greatly too, VOC.

I'm a Leaver, so take this as you will, but my T said,."I sense a lot of your anger is expecting her to be someone she is not." I had to think about that, and I still do since I have to co parent with her for the rest of my life. Another thing he said, though he said she was foolish, was that she was an independent enitity, free to make her own choices.

He was telling me that she is who she is. Yes, I can't control that, no matter how much her actions may violate my values.

It's a tough place to be in if you're still in a r/s. How much is enabling, and how much is accepting the person for who they are?

[js friend]

You can't change him. You can only change yourself.

Trying to change somebody else is futile.

Allowing them to be themselves is enabling.

Hmmmm. . .

I haven't finished reading this thread but I hope someone can help answer this contradiction, because it confuses me greatly too, VOC.

Hi I normally post supporting the child board but stumbled across this thread. It is a bit of a contradiction what is quoted here. Radical Acceptance is allowing a person to be themselves whereas enabling is doing things for them that they can do for themselves.

I have radical Acceptance that my dd20 is ill and may never reach the milestones others of her age acquire in life. I have learnt to accept her the way she is warts n all without trying to change her. I have learnt to let go of these expectations and other expectations i might have had  and allow her to be herself. For example dds home is quite messy,but i have learnt to look past it as long as it isnt harmful to my gc. This was quite difficult for me at first as Iam quite a neat person, who likes order and structure and couldnt help at first cleaning while i was there, only to find later that she began to leave her dirty dishes and washing for me to do when i came around., Again I  thought I was doing some good but I was actually enabling and dd probably saw it as me being judgemental of the way she lived. So now when iam at dd i will offer to do little things and if she wants to clean i will help her. I  now have Radical Acceptance that it is dds life and if she chooses to life that way I have to respect that.

Enabling is doing things for them that they can do for themselves. For example when my dd was younger she would often stay out late past her curfew without permission and then ring us to ask for someone to pick her up which i always did as i wanted her home safe.It didnt matter how many times we spoke to her about it she still did it. Well it came to a point that she began relying on us to bring her home.When she couldnt get a ride home thats when she began to really think about how she was going to get home. as we were no longer enabling this behaviour. We were no longer going to support this behaviour... .so if she was going to go out past her curfew she really needed to think of another way to get home.



I Hope these little examples help. 

[an0ught]

Hi vortex of confusion,

If his looking at porn was an addiction, then you supported his addiction by not enacting a boundary that porn is not allowed in the house (as you did later when you had children). That is enabling.

How in the world was I supposed to know that it was an addiction?

I was making decisions based on the information that I had at the time.

You could not really know. Before diving deeper lets remember are talking about behavior in the context of BPD here and in that light excessive porn consumption is coping behaviors that go beyond sexual realm and is more related to general inner pain. A treatment of BPD would initially not focus on less damaging coping behavior - and from your description it was somewhat upsetting but not totally destructive to the relationship - and start at the true underlying causes.

He was looking at porn. His choice. I felt rejected. My feelings. I went back to bed. My choice. If I choose not engage in conflict, that is still my choice. That is still ME trying to live MY values. I had a boundary. My boundary is that I was not going to stand around and watch or be a part of his morning routine.

So you did not like it but felt it was in his domain. You communicated your views at times. You protected yourself from being impacted as well as you could through boundaries.

Are you asking how much more perfect you could have acted?

I sometimes feel like labeling certain behaviors as enabling is another way to place the blame on me.

Who is labeling and blaming you? T? He? You? Your inner critic?

[vortex of confusion]

The enabling only occurs when there is a behavior that has been discussed as being detrimental, the behavior continues, and the person without the behavior ignores the problem, joins in, accepts the justifications for the behavior, avoids the problem, doesn't let the person with the behavior suffer the consequences of their actions, rescues them, controls them, tries to "fix" them, continues to bail them out and keeps giving them "one more chance" again and again.

I am looking at the Lessons. Under Perspectives: The do's and don'ts in a BPD relationships https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

It says:

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Could having realistic expectations be accepting justifications for the behavior? All of the resources say that the pwBPD can't really control themselves or help themselves. Time and time again people are counseled to not expect any kind of changes from the pwBPD.

On that same page, it says:

Accept the Role of "Emotional Caretaker": According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it.

It says in plain English that one must accept the role of Emotional Caretaker in order to be in a relationship with a pwBPD. I have been that emotional caretaker for years and didn't even realize it. I think that is why I have made it this far. I am being told to stop enabling and caretaking and being codependent yet the resources for staying in this kind of relationship clearly state that one of the requirements is to accept the role of emotional caretaker.

After that it says:

Protection: Difficult things will likely happen in a BP relationship and it is important that you try to protect everyone (you, the BPD, the children) - financially, emotionally, etc.  Be prepared for digressions when they occur -  they will. This could range from controlling the bank accounts, to educating the children, to having a suicide threat plan.  You can mitigate some of the damage.

I am a very good protector. I look at most of what I have done over the years as protecting. I have protected my husband in certain situations because NOT protecting him could have had bad consequences for me and the kids. In situations where his behavior or his screw ups have no impact on me or the kids, I tend to let it be. There have been a few instances where I probably did too much. I have a very logical mind and can see the potential consequences of stuff that he doesn't even think about. A lot of what I do is mitigate the damage.

Understand Why: There are a many reasons to be in BP relationship or to try.  It's a deeply personal decision.  Sometimes the reasons are unhealthy- such as BPD/NPD relationships, BPD/Co-dependent relationship, etc.   It's important to understand your own emotional health and what motivates you to "stay in" and build a life that "evolves around" and has to "continually compensate for" the acts of a destructive person. Many professionals enter therapy when they are treating BPD to stay grounded.  It is a good idea for you too.

My reason for staying is my kids. It is a choice that I have to remind myself of quite frequently in order to stay grounded. I find it difficult to make the distinction between the unhealthy reasons and the valid reasons.

[Crumbling]

It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Could having realistic expectations be accepting justifications for the behavior?

Yes.  "When he feels X, he will do Y."  In my case, it's when my h feels afraid of being abandoned, he will push me away.  This is my H's reality.  It's who he is.  Period.

I don't accept his expression of this fear in certain ways (threatening divorce, screaming at me out of displaced anger, etc).  But I must accept that he will try these things, if there is no boundaries to keep the behaviours in check.

I can't stop him from pushing me away.  I can stop believing that he's pushing me away because of something I've said or done.

It's not really about justifying their actions... .more like learning to trust that you know what to expect from him and, maybe, why.

Does that make any sense?

-------

It says in plain English that one must accept the role of Emotional Caretaker in order to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.

Okay, so let's work on accepting that we must be in a quasi-co-dependant relationship in order to stay sane in the one we're in.  What does quasi-co-dependent mean?  It means when he needs it, we SET.  We steer him away from JADEing discussions.  When he dysregulates, we enforce our boundaries.  The only relationship he knows how to be in is a dysfunctional one.  BPD Reality.  Period.

It doesn't mean we accept the bad behaviours, it doesn't mean we need to live in an unhealthy emotional state.  It means we need to know and understand and accept the responsibilities of this marriage.  He can't figure things out alone, and that's where you (and I) come in.  Hence, the caretaker role.   

It isn't pretty.  It isn't fair.  It isn't easy. 

It just is.


c.

[Crumbling]

... .or how about this... .

When a person gets old, they need a caregiver, someone to guide them and help them through daily activities.  It doesn't make the relationship 'unhealthy' or the people in it.  It just is.  So too is our role in a BPD r/s.

I find it hard to figure out when I'm enabling and when I'm simply playing my role too.  But thinking about enabling as allowing/supporting him in destructive behaviours... .like not having safety boundaries around a situation that really hurts everyone because of his behaviours... .makes it somewhat easier.  I just stay away from those things.

-------

btw... .ever wonder why we need caregivers when we're alive and caretakers when we're dead?  One gives care to a body and one takes care of a body.  Isn't it fun when the English language actually works the way it should!   

[vortex of confusion]

Okay, so let's work on accepting that we must be in a quasi-co-dependant relationship in order to stay sane in the one we're in. 

That seems a bit like tip toeing around the truth, which is that in order to be in this sort of relationship, it is necessary to be co-dependent.

It doesn't mean we accept the bad behaviours, it doesn't mean we need to live in an unhealthy emotional state.  It means we need to know and understand and accept the responsibilities of this marriage.  He can't figure things out alone, and that's where you (and I) come in.  Hence, the caretaker role.   

It doesn't matter whether or not the bad behaviors are accepted. The bad behaviors are going to continue with or without boundaries, with or without discussions, and with or without acceptance on my part. It is what it is. I can accept that being in this relationship requires me to be in a quasi co dependent relationship where I am the caretaker or I can leave. To me, it feels like a bit of tiptoeing. You can't put a flower in a butthole and call it a vase.  

[getting_better]

I've thought quite a bit on this topic since I separated from my dBPDstbxw.  Perhaps my perspective is a bit different because she also fell into addiction to prescription painkillers which has led me to Al-Anon (support group for friends and families of addicts and alcoholics).  There's a lot of talk about enabling within those walls.

For me it seems to boil down to what you've hit on, Vortex. If I'm not being honest with myself and with her, then I'm enabling her.  If her drug usage or raging at me & the kids or not helping with household chores or excessive spending or expecting me to run the kids everywhere, etc. etc. etc. is troublesome to me and makes me feel upset I should be true to myself and communicate it.  

Staying silent when I am troubled is enabling her behavior.  The number one thing I wish I could change about my 23-year marriage is that I wish I'd been honest.  Because of her BPD the marriage may have ended much sooner with my honesty, but I would have been much more serene and peaceful in my life and experienced a whole lot less strife and contention.  

Again, just my perspective.  

[vortex of confusion]

For me it seems to boil down to what you've hit on, Vortex. If I'm not being honest with myself and with her, then I'm enabling her.  If her drug usage or raging at me & the kids or not helping with household chores or excessive spending or expecting me to run the kids everywhere, etc. etc. etc. is troublesome to me and makes me feel upset I should be true to myself and communicate it.

I am not trying to be difficult with this (maybe I am to a degree). If I keep quiet, it is enabling. If I communicate it and talk about it, it isn't enabling? I have almost 17 years worth of alternating between talking until I am blue in the face, keeping quiet, throwing fits, and acting BPD myself at times just to communicate what it is that is bugging me.

Staying silent when I am troubled is enabling her behavior.

Is it? Bringing something up and having it turn into a fight where you aren't going to be heard isn't any more productive than keeping quiet.

[123Phoebe]

Understand Why: There are a many reasons to be in BP relationship or to try.  It's a deeply personal decision.  Sometimes the reasons are unhealthy- such as BPD/NPD relationships, BPD/Co-dependent relationship, etc.   It's important to understand your own emotional health and what motivates you to "stay in" and build a life that "evolves around" and has to "continually compensate for" the acts of a destructive person. Many professionals enter therapy when they are treating BPD to stay grounded.  It is a good idea for you too.

My reason for staying is my kids. It is a choice that I have to remind myself of quite frequently in order to stay grounded. I find it difficult to make the distinction between the unhealthy reasons and the valid reasons.

Maybe figure out what "staying for your kids" really means.  What are the pros to staying for your kids, how are they benefiting from this arrangement?  Are there any cons to "staying for your kids"?  :)oes one outweigh the other?

Staying silent when I am troubled is enabling her behavior.

Is it? Bringing something up and having it turn into a fight where you aren't going to be heard isn't any more productive than keeping quiet.

You're right!  That's why there are communication tools to avoid just this sort of thing... .  Boundaries, timeouts, how to avoid circular arguments, SET, stop the bleeding, how to stop making things worse etc etc etc... .  Otherwise, it's codependent enabling behavior  Enabling the dysfunctional dynamic to continue.  Lived it with my ex   And tried it with my bf, only he made it really hard for me to stay the same

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe figure out what "staying for your kids" really means.  What are the pros to staying for your kids, how are they benefiting from this arrangement?  Are there any cons to "staying for your kids"?  :)oes one outweigh the other?

I have a hard time thinking about the cons of staying for my kids. The biggest con is that I know that I will struggle emotionally with staying. For me, the biggest pros have to do with the kids, especially since he has been working on and improving his relationship with the kids.

You're right!  That's why there are communication tools to avoid just this sort of thing... .  Boundaries, timeouts, how to avoid circular arguments, SET, stop the bleeding, how to stop making things worse etc etc etc... .  Otherwise, it's codependent enabling behavior  Lived it with my ex   And tried it with my bf, only he made it really hard for me to stay the same

This made me chuckle. Not sure why. I think it is because of how a lot of people are treated when reaching out for help. I feel like I have been labeled as a codependent enabler because of the things that happened before I got my hands on decent information. Believe me, I have been searching for years. I don't feel like I was sitting back and taking things. I was trying to find ways to make things better. It varied from fixing me, to fixing him, to thinking about leaving, to trying some super crazy stuff. For me, it has been a process. Once kids entered the picture, I became even more intent on ways to make things better.

[OffRoad]

I am not trying to be difficult with this (maybe I am to a degree). If I keep quiet, it is enabling. If I communicate it and talk about it, it isn't enabling? I have almost 17 years worth of alternating between talking until I am blue in the face, keeping quiet, throwing fits, and acting BPD myself at times just to communicate what it is that is bugging me.

BBM: I'm curious, how is communicating and talking about it being enabling? Could you give me an instance where it would be enabling? (with the exception of telling them to go ahead an do whatever behavior when it's a problem, of course.)

And who has labeled you as a co-dependent enabler? Was it just the one conversation with your friend?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

VOC, labels are hard to hear and hard to wear.  There is no doubt that I have codependent tendencies.  Call me a caregiver personality... .  Oh well!  It's when it interferes with life's goals that it becomes a problem.  When I take other people's problems on as my own, to the detriment of my own life.  If I'm more concerned about them, than myself.  If I'm over involved in their business.  If I lose sleep at night worrying about them.  If I let them forge past my boundaries.  If I forego my values in lieu of their's... .  And then resent the hell out of them.  That sort of thing.

Do any of those things pertain to you?

[getting_better]

Staying silent when I am troubled is enabling her behavior.

Is it? Bringing something up and having it turn into a fight where you aren't going to be heard isn't any more productive than keeping quiet.

Again, you've struck at the heart of it.  With BPD it absolutely will turn into a raging argument when you bring it up and communicate it.  I - like so many of us on these boards - learned to just keep quiet and give the 'soft answer to turn away wrath' as the Proverb states.  I'm sure you know what I mean.  In my experience staying silent or backing down to avoid the argument has left me (after 23 years) feeling weak and lacking confidence in myself.  I believe it erodes a person and enables the pwBPD.  I am separated now and seeking divorce, and I firmly believe that I would have been here many years earlier and perhaps have more happy years in front of me.  

I read Dr. Sharri Manning's "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" and learned validation skills, opposite action, etc. (lots of DBT skills) that actually do work.  :)uring our separation these last 10 months I've been able to use those skills many times, and they really are effective!  I believe now that it is possible to have a productive, honest conversation with a pwBPD using the right skillset.  I've made the choice to end the relationship, but I admire and respect those who have the energy to stick with it.  

Honest, open communication where I check my own motives and confirm that I am acting from a place of pure intent - no anger, self-pity, arrogance, etc. means I am not enabling her.  Otherwise, I am.

[Panda39]

Hi Vortex

I didn't know if you all checked this out so I'm just throwing it out there.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

There is also a book called "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie that you might want to checkout.

I was married to an alcoholic and in some ways I think the codependence was easier to see because it was an alcohol problem vs a mental health issue.  It took me a couple of years into my marriage to understand my husband was an alcoholic... .he was functional could hold down a job but every night out came the 12-pack.  I didn't like the drinking, but I was a rescuer, a caretaker, and he was my husband.  I begged, I pleaded, I cajoled, I argued, I threatened and I dumped all the beer I found in the house down the sink. My husband was in denial so the drinking continued.

I was thinking about leaving and then I got pregnant. I was in a troubled marriage but I didn't become codependent until I decided to stay in my troubled marriage because with a new baby and had become financially dependent. In reality I was also getting other things out of this arrangement. I was getting boost to my poor self esteem because he had the problem not me I was a "better" person than he was, I was the rescuer and caretaker and the better parent, I was the one that managed/controlled everything and I could set aside my needs for the needs of my husband and the needs of my son... .I was so self sacrificing  .  Rescuer, caretaker, self sacrificing parent all sound great but not if done for the wrong reasons. Putting my husband down to lift myself up.

I depended on his paycheck and feelings of artificial self worth and he depended on my caretaking and enabling because eventually I no longer tried to stop the drinking but I did hide our problems from others. The drinking continued, the unhappiness continued, the marriage was slowly dying and emotionally so was I.  Because I was hiding my husband's drinking I was withdrawing from my social life, my family and becoming depressed... .I was disappearing.


From Wikipedia (Describes a lot of what I was doing)... .

Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. Among the core characteristics of codependency, the most common theme is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and identity... .

Codependency has been referred to as the disease of a lost self. Codependent relationships are marked by intimacy problems, dependency, control (including caretaking) denial, dysfunctional communication and boundaries, and high reactivity. Often, there is imbalance, so one person is abusive or in control or supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. Some codependents often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs. Many codependents place a lower priority on their own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.

Vortex I don't think you were showing co-dependent behavior in the example you gave at the beginning of this thread.  At that time (like me at the beginning of my marriage) you did not know there was a problem.  Your husband was doing something you didn't like but you didn't recognize it as the problem it would become later in your marriage.

I hope I'm making sense or my post could be as clear as mud! 

[Crumbling]

I've really struggled with this too, Vee.  I had a discussion with livedandlearned in the Members Lounge about this very thing.  Here it is, hope it helps.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273293.msg12599771#msg12599771

I also had the same idea as Phoebe... .looking at why you are staying for the children.  I made the choice to leave my physically abusive ex when my kids were only not quite three and one.  I was okay in the r/s until he's violent ways were turned onto our boy.  That was it.  Game over.  I left.

I carried guilt for 'making their father leave' when they were both so young, for a long time.  Looking back 20yrs later, there was no reason for me to carry that guilt.  I did the best I could under the circumstances we were in, and my kids understand that and love me for protecting them.  Life isn't a perfect dance, and as a parent, there's nothing you can do to make it one.  Most people get this, even kids.  But as a parent, it is our goal, right, to make everything as perfect and comfortable for them as possible.  The reality is it isn't possible, and it's crazy making to try.

Can your H not develop a better r/s with his children while the two of you are apart?  What does he bring to the development of the children that requires you to be under the same roof?  Not that I think you should leave, I'd never say that to anyone.  But, maybe really examining this aspect of your decision will help you live with it better.

blessings,

c.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

I'm a bit late to the thread... .and in a bit of a feisty mood... .  I like the discussions we have about things.

I'm going to take a stand and ... .IMO... .you were not an enabler... .at all with the going back to bed thing.

If you had handed him the laptop... .I think that would qualify as enabling.  If you had done something else "actively"... .to help him get to porn... .I would feel comfortable saying you were an "enabler"

In the drinking world... .handing over a drink to someone is enabling.  If you find a bottle in their house... .and don't pour it out... .are you an enabler?  I think not.  Although I might still suggest you pour it out... .I don't think you "have to" to avoid the label.

Thoughts?  Thanks for the topic... .I need to read it again... .

FF

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Hey... .might be a different thread... .but I wonder what "advice" you would give yourself... .if you could go back in time.

Goal would be to give advice to help the r/s... .I realize "help" is broad... .kinda intentional... .

Up to the challenge?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for the link Crumbling!

I also had the same idea as Phoebe... .looking at why you are staying for the children.  I made the choice to leave my physically abusive ex when my kids were only not quite three and one.  I was okay in the r/s until he's violent ways were turned onto our boy.  That was it.  Game over.  I left.

Abuse is my deal breaker. If he were to physically abuse one of the kids, he would be out on behind. He has even gotten way better about being more validating towards the kids. It is kind of amazing to see the transformation. When I used to try to take a nap or do something for myself, he would yell at the kids and tell him, "Leave mom alone or she will get mad." He made me out to be a big fat meany. The kids didn't listen to him or believe him because they trusted that I could be bothered and would help them and everything would be okay. They knew that the crap he was saying was just that, empty crap. Now, he tells them, "Mom needs a nap. Let's work together to help mom get some sleep." They will listen to that and will respond by going to him if they need anything.

As long as he is making progress with the kids, I don't want to do anything about leaving. A lot of the progress he is making with them is due to the fact that we all live in the same house together. The kids see him being nicer to me and them and they are nicer to him in turn. I feel like leaving would set a lot of this progress back. I think it was last summer when I got to a point where I decided that I was going to leave come hell or high water. I talked to the kids and I had found a way out. It upset the kids really bad. It made one or two of them physically ill. They didn't start feeling better until I backed off the idea and said that we weren't leaving.

Can your H not develop a better r/s with his children while the two of you are apart?  What does he bring to the development of the children that requires you to be under the same roof?  Not that I think you should leave, I'd never say that to anyone.  But, maybe really examining this aspect of your decision will help you live with it better.

It is about having access. I think that the small stuff is what makes the biggest difference. It is him bringing home dinner from time to time. It is him making small amends to the kids by showing more of an interest in what they are doing. It is the little conversations that they have on the spur of the moment when I am doing other stuff. It is being able to wake him up on occasion when they need something in the middle of the night. If he was living away from the kids, there would be so many lost opportunities for him to improve the relationship. And, I do know that he has a tendency for things to be out of sight out of mind. If he lived in a separate house, he wouldn't have the motivation to work on things with the kids. What would the motivation be? Plus, it would make my life a heck of a lot more difficult. Even if he is emotionally absent a lot of the times, he is still a great house boy. I know that sounds really bad. If we need something, he is great at getting it. He can do store runs and get little stuff for the kids. One of the girls asked him for help with something one time. He tried to tell her "No, you can do it yourself." She responded, "I know I can do it for myself. I want you to do it for me/help me because I want your attention." Those little moments wouldn't be possible if one of us left. They might still be possible but they sure as heck wouldn't be able to happen as often.

I saw one of the best definitions of codependency on a FB meme. It went something along the lines of "Codependency is caring more about somebody else's life and problems than they do." I tried to verify and found this: "Codependency is driven by the agreement that I will work harder on your problem and your life than you do."

[vortex of confusion]

If you had handed him the laptop... .I think that would qualify as enabling.  If you had done something else "actively"... .to help him get to porn... .I would feel comfortable saying you were an "enabler"

I think I was 23 or 24 at the time and I had never even heard of sex addiction or porn addiction. I didn't know such a thing existed. I remember having conversations with him that went something along the lines of, "Hey, I get it. You are guy. Guys sometimes look at porn. Big friggin' deal. What I have a problem with is not getting enough attention. If you want to look at porn, let's do it together and try to spice things up." This was before I knew anything about sex addiction or anything of the sort. Heck, this was stuff that NOBODY talked about.

I will never forget the time that I brought it up with my mother in law. I don't remember how it came up exactly. When I told her about the porn stuff, she said, "Oh, he dad was just like that. It didn't bother me though because that meant that he left me alone." 

In the drinking world... .handing over a drink to someone is enabling.  If you find a bottle in their house... .and don't pour it out... .are you an enabler?  I think not.  Although I might still suggest you pour it out... .I don't think you "have to" to avoid the label.

After he lost his job because of looking at porn, I went on a crusade against having that stuff in my house at all. I asked him every single friggin' day for years.

I will admit that I am really triggered by the whole codependent enabler thing. I can see where I have done that in specific situations. With my husband, all of the stuff that I have done has been out of pure ignorance. Sex addiction isn't something people talk about openly. Also, I get caught up on the whole notion of what a marriage is supposed to be. I don't feel like I have been codependent or enabling with my husband. If feel like I have tried to live out what I thought a marriage should be. How do you reconcile the differences in two people's definition/idea of marriage? My husband paid lip service to it but didn't actually live it. I feel like I was living my values and being steadfast even though he wasn't living the values that he claimed to have.

[vortex of confusion]

Hey... .might be a different thread... .but I wonder what "advice" you would give yourself... .if you could go back in time.

Goal would be to give advice to help the r/s... .I realize "help" is broad... .kinda intentional... .

Up to the challenge?

Let's see if I can think of what advice I would give myself. . .realistically!

I would tell myself to ask myself the following questions:

What is your problem with porn? Are you making a big deal out of nothing? A lot of guys look at porn. What is the real issue here?

Have you expressed your concern to your husband? What was his response?

Is there a way that the two of you can come to some kind of agreement about it?

Are you fulfilling your duties as a wife? Have you told him that you are interested in getting more attention in the bedroom?

Are your expectations realistic? Where are you getting your ideas from?

-----------

My responses would be:

I don't have a problem with porn. I have a problem with the fact that he is choosing porn over me. I have a problem with waking up in the morning to find him doing that. I would like for him to stay in bed and cuddle with me or watch TV or something. Instead, he gets up and does his thing. When I bring it up, he says that he doesn't want to bug me and is trying to be considerate of my need for sleep. And, he likes to have alone time in the morning. Even when he was a kid, he didn't like to be bothered in the morning and had his routine. Him being able to do his morning routine was and is very important to him and makes his day go better. I think my expectations are a little bit skewed so I am going to back off of them and deal with my emotions on my own because the problem seems to be a difference of expectations, needs, and wants.

A lot of my ideas are based on the generalization that guys are real horn dogs and wouldn't turn down having relations with a real live female. I was always under the impression that most guys would rather have the real thing rather than just a cheap imitation. I had never been married before and I was rather young and this wasn't a topic that I could openly discuss with anybody.

[MercuryHat]

Interesting topic.

Glad to meet y'all. I'm new here and kind of insecure about jumping into this discussion. Please forgive me if I step on toes. I'm still not sure how y'all do thing 'round here.

(hmmm... .is that enough disclaimers to free me from dealing with big emotional reactions if I inadvertently say something upsetting... .wait a minute. I forgot where I was and which side of the BPD I was talking to!)

Porn - masturbation - physical needs - sex - addiction - My thougths:

Personally I don't like most porn.  I'm a feminist and really don't get turned on by bullsh!t images and roles of women. I don't get that kind of porn and have to work to not judge it. At the same time I accept that porn seems standard for most (if not all) men in our culture. I don't get my knickers in a twist about it.

Masturbation is not always a 2nd place for real live sex with another person. I have a high sex drive. I like to think of myself as a very sex positive person. I am probably more like men in my approach to sex, than I am to other women.

I like sex with my partner. I also like sex with myself.

Sex with my partner is different from sex with myself, in so many ways. Each fills different physical and emotional needs.

Masturbation is the real thing... .it (and I) are not a cheap imitation. I used to (decades ago) find masturbation a sad activity that I did alone and lonely. Now I find it a self loving thing that I enjoy and at times look forward to. I do it just for me. That is part of the gift of it.

Sex addiction is an interesting topic. I think it is a term and concept very rooted in our culture, at this point in time. Our culture is highly sexualized  and at the same time very sex negative. Such a paradox!

Not everyone is monogamous by nature. Yet that is the current default setting in our culture (it wasn't a couple of generations ago. In the 50's and before no men were expected to be monogamous their entire lives, only the women).

People who can't fit into the monogamous ideal are often accused of sex addiction.

People who enjoy a regular endorphin rush of orgasm (self induced or otherwise) are often accused of sex addiction.

People who endure a sex-less marriage are accepted as the norm.

I don't know whether sex addiction exists or not. I am not in any position to comment on it (or on Vortex or anyone else's personal situation). I do wonder tho' how a culture that normalizes sexless marriages, while also normalizing the perpetuation of pornalistic images and roles of women in the mainstream, feels that it is capable of pronouncing anyone a sex addict.



IMHO, one of the keys out of co-dependancy is being responsive to one's own needs.

What are your sexual needs, Vortex? Are they being met? What are you doing about that - in the here and now?

(these questions are for self clarification, if you find them useful. I'm not asking you to answer them here)


These days sex is a topic that anyone can openly discuss... .then again, it is also a can of worms that one must approach carefully when BPD is a dominant force in one's life.


Just my 2 cents

[MercuryHat]

Staying for the kids!

That is what my mother said when her 4 kids begged her to leave our dad (then undx'd Asperger's with major rage)

She stayed for us. And her religion. And because he *needed* her.

Then the kids moved out (as early as we could).

She lost her religion.

He *needs* her even more now, as he ages.

She made her own choice many years ago. If she had left she would have been a great single mother. She would have rocked it. Who knows how that would have changed our (her kids) personalities?

Shoulda, coulda, woulda leads no where.


When I took my then 1 1/2 year old daughter (now 15 years old) and left her father I had a hard time of it. But, I rocked it. I was a great single mother. My daughter is growing into a great person.

She spent 1/2 her time living with her dad (because fairness is important to me, because she needs to know where she comes from, because I needed to work to support us since there was no money coming from him). This 1/2 time - 1/2 time thing gets tired. (she's now doing 3 weeks at one house, 3 weeks at the other)

She misplaces things. She suffers from not have a routine from month to month. It is an imperfect solution.

But, there are no perfect solutions in life. We do the best we can. We live with the consequences.

Regardless of the choice we make (stay or go) our kids are going to suffer/thrive/endure/be changed.

No-one knows what the right choice is in any given circumstance. We (the parent facing the choice) are the ones who have to live with the consequences (our own and our kids) and we do the best (imperfect) that we can.


I have chosen to stay with 6 year old daughter's father. I am quite clear (to myself, he couldn't handle the information) that if he and I didn't have a kid I would be gone.

There are a number of  reasons for me to stay. The most compelling one is that 6y/o suffers from the same emotional craziness (which I now believe to be BPD) as her father. I have for years explained to him that by working on and healing himself he will be able to lead her out of the dark of it. All I can do is set loving but firm limits around her behaviour so that her rages don't cause damage and she is safe while she surfs them out.

He is the one that can learn, then model the way through the darkness.

Whether he will take those opportunities or not is outside of my power.

What is in my power is for me to be here in our home as a grounding/limiting/loving/accepting/validating force in his and her lives. And, for me to model Mama getting her needs met (even tho' I often have to go outside our home to do so).


This is my long winded way of saying - stay or go Vortex. Either way your kids will end up screwed-up just fine.


The trick for me is how do I stay and still get some of my needs met?



Maybe that's the difference between enabling and being supportive - the variable of one's own needs making it into the equation?

[shatterd]

to lightn things up a lil bit,  i said this once in marrige counsling, when she askd this question about enabling and supporting,   


so if she shoots me in the face and takes my wallet   i supported her?

if she shoots me in the leg and sets me on fire, but calls an ambulacne for me   than i enabled her?

yes this is the process for norms to figure this out    im still confused about a meeting we had 4 yrs ago blaaaaaaaaah

[vortex of confusion]

Personally I don't like most porn.  I'm a feminist and really don't get turned on by bullsh!t images and roles of women. I don't get that kind of porn and have to work to not judge it. At the same time I accept that porn seems standard for most (if not all) men in our culture. I don't get my knickers in a twist about it.

I didn't have an issue with the porn itself.

Masturbation is not always a 2nd place for real live sex with another person. I have a high sex drive. I like to think of myself as a very sex positive person. I am probably more like men in my approach to sex, than I am to other women.

I am like this as well. I have always had a pretty high sex drive and would have liked to have enjoyed it with my husband.

Masturbation is the real thing... .it (and I) are not a cheap imitation. I used to (decades ago) find masturbation a sad activity that I did alone and lonely. Now I find it a self loving thing that I enjoy and at times look forward to. I do it just for me. That is part of the gift of it.

I don't really have an opinion about masturbation one way or the other. It doesn't make sense to be in a committed relationship and choose masturbation over your spouse all of the time. If you do it just for you and refuse to share yourself with your partner, then that is problematic in my opinion. If a person prefers to masturbate as a joyful solitary activity and repeatedly leaves the partner out of the equation, then why get married at all? My problem wasn't with the masturbation or the porn. I am not a goody goody that has anything against those activities.

Not everyone is monogamous by nature. Yet that is the current default setting in our culture (it wasn't a couple of generations ago. In the 50's and before no men were expected to be monogamous their entire lives, only the women).

I am aware of this. Have you read "Sex at Dawn"? My husband and I experimented with an open/poly relationship for a while. With or without the extra activities, there was a basic lack of respect for me on his part. I consulted with my poly friends and they agreed that his behavior was not okay. I am all for ethical non-monogamy if both parties agree to it and can do it without being complete jerks to the primary partner.

People who can't fit into the monogamous ideal are often accused of sex addiction.

People who enjoy a regular endorphin rush of orgasm (self induced or otherwise) are often accused of sex addiction.

I have been accused of being a sex addict because I wanted to have sex with my husband. I have been accused of being a sex addict because of my behavior while we experimented with an open marriage. I am NOT a sex addict. My husband is. What sets us apart is the fact that his behavior is compulsive. And, he has a lot of shame about sex. He is not very comfortable with his own sexuality. There are a couple of online tests that ask a series of questions to help one determine whether or not they are sex addicts. A person that doesn't fit the monogamous ideal is NOT a sex addict just as somebody that enjoys sex is NOT a sex addict.

A person that looks at porn at work because he can't resist the temptation is a sex addict. A person that has to go to the bathroom at work to masturbate is probably a sex addict. A sex addict lacks the ability to delay gratification. If they can't get to porn or self pleasure, they will resort to mental fantasies.

What are your sexual needs, Vortex? Are they being met? What are you doing about that - in the here and now?

I am taking a break from worrying about my sexual needs at the moment. They are not very high on my priority list right now. I have bigger fish to fry.  I used to have a lover on the side that my husband knew about and approved of. Things have changed and we are in a bit of a transition period. I am able to delay sexual gratification whether it is with myself or somebody else.

[vortex of confusion]

That is what my mother said when her 4 kids begged her to leave our dad (then undx'd Asperger's with major rage)

If my kids begged me to leave, I would leave without hesitation. My kids have begged me to stay. I almost left a year or so ago and the kids begged me to stay. Their dad can be a pain in the butt at times but he still has a lot of good qualities that they like.

This is my long winded way of saying - stay or go Vortex. Either way your kids will end up screwed-up just fine.

This thread isn't about whether I am staying or going. I have made the choice to stay. I wanted to explore the difference between being supportive and enabling. I value my partner. I have no control over whether or not my partner values me. I have ideas about how I should treat other people. If a person is in a relationship (whether it be a monogamous marriage or a primary or secondary relationship in the context of ethical non-monogamy), I have ideas about MY role in the relationship. If I am living MY values and the other person takes advantage of me or turns into a jerk, that is on them, not me. However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

[123Phoebe]

However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

I think I have been the one questioning myself the most.

I recently started a 12 step program for spouses of addicts. It is bringing up a lot of anger and confusing feelings. Some of the things that my sponsor has said have triggered me. I feel like I have supported my spouse and lived out my values of what I think a loving wife should be. Now, I feel like those values are being labeled. If my spouse were to reciprocate and not be a jerk, would MY behaviors still be seen in the same light.

I hope that isn't as clear as mud. 

[123Phoebe]

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

I think I have been the one questioning myself the most.

I recently started a 12 step program for spouses of addicts. It is bringing up a lot of anger and confusing feelings. Some of the things that my sponsor has said have triggered me. I feel like I have supported my spouse and lived out my values of what I think a loving wife should be. Now, I feel like those values are being labeled. If my spouse were to reciprocate and not be a jerk, would MY behaviors still be seen in the same light.

I hope that isn't as clear as mud.  

If you each held the same values, I don't know if you'd have found this site, then posted about being labeled a codependent/enabling/rescuer

If you're trying to cajole him into holding your values... . Well... .

If you're living out your values and your spouse is a jerk, I think boundaries would be apparent in order to protect your values.  

All I know is that my bf didn't take me seriously until I took myself seriously.  He had nothing to hang his hat on when I wasn't providing the rack.

I value him and our relationship.  My boundaries protect our relationship with respect for him and me.  

Do you respect your husband?

[vortex of confusion]

Do you respect your husband?

Hmmm. . . the short answer is no.

If somebody wants me to elaborate, I can. That is my gut level response without JADEing about it. 

[MercuryHat]

I have been accused of being a sex addict because I wanted to have sex with my husband. I have been accused of being a sex addict because of my behavior while we experimented with an open marriage.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Sounds like a lot of what you may be struggling with right now as well. - being labelled or accused of (in this case) being an enabler.

Personally, I think labels suck, unless they are on object. Labels on people never really work except to cause pain.

I have ideas about MY role in the relationship. If I am living MY values and the other person takes advantage of me or turns into a jerk, that is on them, not me.

I agree!

However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

Those damned labels again!

Vortex, it sounds to me like you know your own mind. I honour and appreciate that.

It may be that those of us who end up in relationship with BPD spouses are, at times, easily swayed by what others think. And yet, it seems to me (from the voracious reading I've been doing the past few days) that learning to stay strong in our self knowledge is vital to our emotional survival and well being.

I wonder... .do you respect (the opinion of) the person who labelled you with enabling?

Sure they have their own pain they've gone thru (as the spouse of an addict) but they haven't walked any distance in your shoes. Is their opinion worth more than your own, as you look back on the years of you living according to your values.

it sounds to me like a very painful and confusing relationship. Some crossing of the fuzzy and ever changing line between enabling and supportive is bound to happen along the way.

If your sponsor can't cut you some slack, I have some to spare.

And, since i don't know them, I can easily (and with very little consequence) label them a bit of a jerk!


(ps, I haven't read Sex at Dawn, tho' I have heard about it, mostly through Dan Savage's Lovecast. I've thought about opening things up in our marriage, but I don't think BPD hubby would be able to wrap his head around that. It's not a battle discussion I want to take on, at the mo'

[Crumbling]

He has even gotten way better about being more validating towards the kids. It is kind of amazing to see the transformation.

... .

As long as he is making progress with the kids, I don't want to do anything about leaving. A lot of the progress he is making with them is due to the fact that we all live in the same house together. The kids see him being nicer to me and them and they are nicer to him in turn.

... .

I saw one of the best definitions of codependency on a FB meme. It went something along the lines of "Codependency is caring more about somebody else's life and problems than they do." I tried to verify and found this: "Codependency is driven by the agreement that I will work harder on your problem and your life than you do."

This makes a lot of sense, Vee.  But it sounds like you feel that the progress he is making is only possible if you are there... .is this true?  Do you believe that he would just cave and give up if you weren't there every day?  Remember this isn't about re-evaluating your decision to stay, but examining your reasons for staying.  Is he still in the doghouse simply because you dont feel that he is capable of healing unless you are there to guide/inspire him into it, and you are angry at him for that?

Could we not re-state your reasons by saying, 'H requires a partner that will help guide him into making positive choices about his healing... .and as mom to his kids, that is my role.'   Or in other words, hope for/proof of positive change exists because of the co-dependency between the two of you... .your post sparked a memory of a term they used to use in an old recovery group I went to... .inner-dependency.

Inner-dependent would be used to describe a r/s where both parties depend on each other for the things they cant do for themselves.  This was viewed as the positive way to interact.  Knowing your own limitations and valuing the r/s for helping to improve those limitations, in a positive way.  This sound more like your situation, Vee.

... .I'm going to throw back some advice you gave to me a while ago... .forget what others think.  This r/s is about you and your H and no one knows it or you better than you, so no one else has the right to label it.    

Was it really your sponsor that labelled you co-dependent, when you turned a blind eye to the porn way back then?  If so, you need to be honest with her, and tell her that being given labels is not something that is helpful for you.  I would ask her about healthy dependency, and what that looks like for her/is it even possible/etc.

In my world, as I begin to accept that my h is not capable of being in a fully functioning r/s, my expectations for us are diminishing.  I'm beginning to understand that the best our r/s can be is what it is in that moment, he will always depend on me... .for something.  It's up to me to know if I'm supporting him in being healthier or I'm feeding his negative behaviours.

[takingandsending]

It's up to me to know if I'm supporting him in being healthier or I'm feeding his negative behaviours.

VOC, I am going to echo what Crumbling stated. The whole notion of co-dependency and enabling is really centered around enmeshment. Every relationship, healthy or otherwise, requires interdependence. When the give and receive of a relationship becomes unbalanced - which happens in every relationship at some time, the weight of caring for one another shifts more to one partner. No problem, if it is fluid and evens out or shifts back and forth. No build up of resentment, no sense of self-betrayal. But many of us are in situations where the relationship does not even out, does not shift back. Did we have some deep seeded, sinister and ulterior motive for getting there, or perhaps a fatal weakness and personality flaw for finding ourselves in that situation? No. It's not black and white like that. Did we possibly have a proclivity to accept an uneven balance in the weight of caring for another? Here, I tend to say, yes, most likely we did. Only you know where you live on this spectrum.

It's a personal thing. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to buy it. From my own experience, I was pissed off at the whole idea of codependency, because I have suffered  (like a lot of people in this community) at the hands of my partner while doing my utmost to try to be a decent person. But here's the thing, if I am angry, resentful and frustrated to no end with my wife, I am attributing the responsibility of my feelings to her actions and behaviors. For me, personally, that belief has limited me. I have kept myself from taking care of myself and, who knows, possibly entering a healthier, more balanced relationship, using that belief. Maybe you have not done this yourself. Maybe you have. It's something you decide. It's something you can investigate if you need to or knowing yourself well, decide doesn't fit what you know about yourself.

Wishing you well, VOC. I am sorry that you felt labeled and perhaps minimized by your sponsor in the program. That never feels good or right. 

[vortex of confusion]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Sounds like a lot of what you may be struggling with right now as well. - being labelled or accused of (in this case) being an enabler.

When I started this thread, I was triggered because of a conversation that I had with my sponsor. It was a legitimate question because I can't always tell the difference between enabling and being supportive. Like somebody else said, it is easy for things to cross the line without really recognizing it.

I wonder... .do you respect (the opinion of) the person who labelled you with enabling?

There is a difference between saying that my actions were enabling versus labeling me as enabling. I know that I am nitpicking. I am not enabling. I do sometimes do things that are enabling. I want to make sure that I know the difference between being enabling and being supportive in MY mind so that I can behave accordingly.

If your sponsor can't cut you some slack, I have some to spare.

And, since i don't know them, I can easily (and with very little consequence) label them a bit of a jerk!

My sponsor isn't a jerk at all. She is a very sweet person that said something that triggered me and got me to thinking. That is a good thing. She is a friend. As such, she is sometimes going to say things that bother me or get under my skin. Because it bothered me so much, I brought it here hoping to get some feedback and further explore it so I could figure out why it bugged me so much.

(ps, I haven't read Sex at Dawn, tho' I have heard about it, mostly through Dan Savage's Lovecast. I've thought about opening things up in our marriage, but I don't think BPD hubby would be able to wrap his head around that. It's not a battle discussion I want to take on, at the mo'

It is wise to not open things up with somebody with BPD. They can't stick to any agreement. That was the biggest problem. One day my husband would be gung ho about it and the next he would want to stop it all. He would want to stop things when he couldn't find anybody else. It felt like he turned it into a competition. It didn't work at all.

[vortex of confusion]

This makes a lot of sense, Vee.  But it sounds like you feel that the progress he is making is only possible if you are there... .is this true?  Do you believe that he would just cave and give up if you weren't there every day?  Remember this isn't about re-evaluating your decision to stay, but examining your reasons for staying.  Is he still in the doghouse simply because you dont feel that he is capable of healing unless you are there to guide/inspire him into it, and you are angry at him for that?

I don't think it is about me being here. I think he could make progress with or without me. The progress that he needs to be here for is the progress with the kids. If he and I separated, he would not have as much access to the kids. I wouldn't prevent him from seeing the kids at all. It would be a purely logistic matter. If he was living away from me and the kids, then it is only logical that he wouldn't be able to spend as much time with him. I think the kids are what keeps him going some days. Even when I am mad and distant, he can sit in his chair and have a dog or a cat or a kid climb up in his lap and that helps him to feel better. I have no intention of guiding him or inspiring him. I have my on stuff to do.

Could we not re-state your reasons by saying, 'H requires a partner that will help guide him into making positive choices about his healing... .and as mom to his kids, that is my role.'   Or in other words, hope for/proof of positive change exists because of the co-dependency between the two of you... .your post sparked a memory of a term they used to use in an old recovery group I went to... .inner-dependency.

Nope. I am not going to re-state my reasons to say that he requires a partner to guide him into making positive choices. I am not staying for him. I am staying for ME. I am not rescuing him by staying. I am not being noble or anything of the sort. I am being realistic. I have 4 daughters. I don't get out of the house much as it is. If he wasn't here, I would be able to get out even less. If he wasn't here, the kids wouldn't have as much access to him. I see that as being a detriment to him and the kids. He can be grumpy to the kids at times but he isn't abusive to them.

He may not give me much help with the kids but the help that he does give me is very much appreciated. And, there are things that he does that I wouldn't want to have to do and add to my to do list. I am being very practical.

Inner-dependent would be used to describe a r/s where both parties depend on each other for the things they cant do for themselves.  This was viewed as the positive way to interact.  Knowing your own limitations and valuing the r/s for helping to improve those limitations, in a positive way.  This sound more like your situation, Vee.

When I read this, my first thought was, "there isn't much that I can't do for myself". If my husband wasn't here, I could do everything by myself. I have no doubts that I can do things on my own. I don't want to do them on my own.

[shatterd]

i agree vortex,,  we know how life is alone,, we know how speacial life is when someone is with us,, i can do alone as well,, but hell no i dont want too,, life is to short for all that

[Grey Kitty]

I think one of the biggest differences between support and enabling... .or perhaps a measure of codependence is how  aware of you are of your choices and compromises.

You know your H has a bunch of limitations, but you choose to stay with him and make things better, because it will make for a better environment for your kids.

You know you aren't stuck, and you know this is your first choice. (at least for today)

You can do the very same actions... .but if you do them because you choose to do them based on your values... .instead of doing them because your husband 'needs' it, that can make all the difference in the world.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .