Family Therapy

[goingtostopthis]

Has anyone here ever gone through family therapy?

                                    Im having an appointment with my mom and sister and if any of you have read my posts you might imagine I'm anxious about this.

                                     I'm not sure how I want to handle things. There's a part of me that wants to expose them for what theyve been and to not hold back on anything, but I know this will be like digging myself into a deeper hole.

It's taken me way to long to realize that reacting to them in anger makes me the loser in the situation and most likely it encourages them in feeling they have succeeded in what ever they are doing.

                               I get concerned that they are thinking of this session we are going to as a kind of contest they are sure they are going to win. You know, they are probably counting on it as a time they can guarentee that Im going to freely get upset with them like Im going to think Im going to be safe to get angry or something. I would really like something good to come out of this session but I find it hard to imagine this happening if I react in accordance to their game.  Ya.  I think theyve got a game.  Its called two against one.

                              I have to be honest though, Should I just report how things have been in a nuetral fashion and state how this has caused me to feel and then shut up?   or be more tactful, like saying positive things about how they have been, like this has been good, how ever ... .this needs to improve. 

                          My sister has a real power trip problem. I know I cant say this because if I do its going to cause her to become defensive and when she gets this way all sorts of distortions of the truth come out. That's a another problem with these two ladies. They are manipulative too and I want the manipulation to stop.

                              I dont feel like they dont care about my feelings at all., and I know if I said this in therapy, theyd both say, Oh yes we do, bla bla bla.  You know, theyve got to look good to the therapist. I suppose in the beginning its going to be this way until further sessions the true dynamics of what's going on will show itself to the therapist with out anything that I say or do.   Anyone here been through this?  Any suggestions as to how to address myself in the best way?     Thanks

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey going... .

I'm new here.  I started solo counseling about a month ago.  My problem is with my sister.  Have you had counseling by yourself?

Before my first appointment, I thought about trying to work out things with both of us in counseling together.  I'm glad I didn't go down that path.  After 3 sessions of counseling, my therapist mentioned that my sister may have BPD.  She suggested that I buy the "Walking on Egg Shells" book.

The book was very enlightening for me and It appears as if my sister may be a high functioning BPD. I'm so glad that I went for counseling alone.  No one can help my sister if she doesn't want help.  Right now, I plan to focus on myself and what is within my control.

You might consider some counseling alone first (if you haven't already done that).  In hindsight, it would have been a disaster if I tried to have counseling together with my sister.

Best wishes!

Naughty

[goingtostopthis]

I'm new here.  I started solo counseling about a month ago.  My problem is with my sister.  Have you had counseling by yourself?

Before my first appointment, I thought about trying to work out things with both of us in counseling together.  I'm glad I didn't go down that path.  After 3 sessions of counseling, my therapist mentioned that my sister may have BPD.  She suggested that I buy the "Walking on Egg Shells" book.

The book was very enlightening for me and It appears as if my sister may be a high functioning BPD. I'm so glad that I went for counseling alone.  No one can help my sister if she doesn't want help.  Right now, I plan to focus on myself and what is within my control.

You might consider some counseling alone first (if you haven't already done that).  In hindsight, it would have been a disaster if I tried to have counseling together with my sister.

Best wishes!

Naughty

Naughty,

     I hear you.  I hear what you are saying.  I have been seeing a therapists but I'm having serious doubts as to whether or not his method is working for me. I end up more depressed and defeated after leaving his office then when I come in. I have been wanting to try other approaches to my relationship problems with my sister and every time I mention this he knocks this down.  He doesnt seem to think there is any hope for my sister ever changing, in another words, He thinks its useless for me to have hopes of ever working things out.

                       It's taken me awhile to realize that I have a totally different out look on how to solve my problems then he does. Instead of me trying to change my sister,  I'm the one who has been working on changing me. He treats this as some kind of form of self denial accompanied by false hopes in accordance to working my situation out with my sister.   This kind of thinking has actually messed me up more in relation to my sister then making things better and kind of kept me in a hopeless, angry, depressive, defensive state.

                         Im cancelling my appointment with him tomorrow and Im going to find someone else which has been scary for me because there is the possibility he could be right but I want to try a new therapist who will listen to my ideas more openly and support that and then see how things go. That cartoon face you put up is funny. That is how Ive been feeling seeing this therapist and taking his advise while he knocks down my own advise for myself towards what "I " think I should do.

                       The main point he keeps on making is that my sister will never change. I get this, she could, but I cant make her and I'd be waiting along time for it that's for sure. What I need to change is the way I relate to her. I saw this really cool video with this therapist who described a situation like mine in terms of family dynamics. He described exactly what I had been thinking about but I couldnt put words to it. The title was "Family Intimidation" and how to deal with it. This hit home with me because intimidation is just what my sister does and she gets my mother in on it too where the two gang up on me, but mainly my problem is with my sister.

                       Im suppose to play the role to them I had been given growing up with them. Well, sorry, this doesnt work for me anymore. I am working on self differentium.<spelling? Meaning being who I am with out being emeshed into their little program of how they think things are supposed to be. It's been a struggled and Ive fallen flat on my face many times just trying to establish simple boundaries. And my main problem has been reacting, like acting out in anger which usually gives then just what they want.

                             My sister has had the tendency of doing things that humiliate me and cause me to feel belittled and put down. Im the youngest and she's the oldest so its been easy for her to do this to me growing up. Easy as pie Im sure for her since she all ways got away with it. Now that we are adults she still doesnt see any reason why the rules should change. If I get up set over some demeaning comment and make a big display over it, guess who wins.   Anyways, this video is really good about the steps you need to take to change the dynamics of how you are treated by family members. Its something you have to practice and not expect instant results,but eventually with persistence of acting more the adult then they are,  they give up and the nonsense stops.

                             I have also found other resources that are in line with my ideas. One being acting in a totally opposite way as you normally would, doing so peacefully of course.  I came across a Budist video, this really funny guy that talked about meditation and self assurance in the face of dragons.

                           *I know for myself that my problems with reacting and feeling defensive cloud my clear thinking and I start to spiral into anxiety and then from there pure hatred, and from there my sister turns into a demonic monster straight from hell and yes! she not only becomes BPD, but a Nar. too and a psychopath. and then I get so up set I cant see the earth from the sky.        She could very well have a personality disorder, but Im way too up in arms over her  at this point to really clearly indenify this for sure.

                         I think with family therapy if there is going to be a problem with this,  it "will" show up. I have no idea how she is going to act. I can have a good guess, I know showing her emphathy for how tough things have been on her is something I know she needs to hear or know I undersatnd. Im more concerned with how I want to come across, as a grown up adult, not her little picked on little sister who has had the tendancy in the past months to hate her living guts.  Coming across like that isnt going to work. I have nothing to be belittled or shamed over and if she tries it Im going to ready to throw her off with something creative, maybe a creative smile. I know, just anything other then the usual type of reaction her button pushing can cause.  I do know Im going to suggest to this threrapist that it woud be a good thing to instruct us all on the pros and cons of family dynamics, What is healthy and what is dysfunction,  because these two havent a clue about any of this. Maybe some education like this might help your sister. I do think as soon as you realize they arent going to change and you change how you relate to them,  something happens.                          

This reminds me of a really good book call "The Dance of Anger"  I have it some where, most like disected in 3 pieces in an old box somewhere.  I'll find it.      anyways, thanks for your reply. I hope I could have been of some help to you.      Going

[Linda Maria]

Hi goingtostopthis!  I haven't been in family therapy - I am just relieved to be mainly NC with my uBPDsis - but I don't live close to her like you do to yours.  I have read a lot of your posts, and you sound like you have made a lot of progress.  IMO you are quite right to quit your current therapist - anyone who makes you feel worse after talking to them is definitely not helpful.  And you are very articulate about how you feel, and the fact that you know you can only change the way you react to the situation, you can't change your sister, so you sound like with the right therapist supporting you, you would really be able to get through this and find ways of coping, setting boundaries you can maintain, and move forward, so your uBPDsis just doesn't have the power to get to you, and keep spoiling your life.  I tend to agree with Naughty, that I am not sure how helpful family therapy would be - even if you have a great therapist who sees exactly what is going on with your sister, unless your sister accepts it, there still won't be change, and I have never heard anything in your posts to suggest your sister has any self-awareness about her behaviour.  But only you can know if you feel it is worth trying - it might be helpful for your Mum.  But definitely finding the right therapist to support you, in your journey, is key.  My uBPDsis has crossed too many lines in terms of the disgusting and vile things she has done and said, for me to seriously consider any attempts at rebuilding the relationship - having her back in my life is the last thing I would want.  I applaud you for continuing to try to improve the relationship.  Early on when the problems first started, I advised a close, mutual family friend that I would be willing to meet my sis to try to sort things out, but not on my own, because of all the lies she kept coming out with, and because without a witness, she would then just tell more lies after we met.  This friend who is sort of like a cross between a big sister and a Mum to us both, and would never take sides, suggested it to my sister, who having told her how devastated she was by all the terrible things I was allegedly doing, suddenly became terribly busy, and just had no time for a meeting.  I was not surprised - she knew she couldn't lie if this friend who knew us both so well, and also had known our parents very well, knew the details of the wills etc. was present.  Interestingly, she did ask to meet me on my own at one point, but I wasn't prepared to be alone with her, and the probate solicitor even said to me when I said she wanted to meet - he said to me - "Take a chaperone!".  He was deadly serious - he had twigged there was something really wrong by then.  Quite early on she wrote to me that she had contacted Cruse - a UK organisation that counsels bereaved people - it was obvious she had told them all sorts of stories about me, implying that my terrible deeds were caused by my grief, and she was trying to help me!  Later, when things were no longer fully in her control regarding the estate, and her attempts to stop money being paid out etc. could no longer work, she suggested mediation - again - she thought she could manipulate a third party into agreeing I was the bad guy.  I told her as the will was 50/50 there was nothing to mediate on, we just had to sell the properties and split the proceeds.  So there would never be any point in my going to therapy with my sister - because I have realised she has been like this for a very long time - it just didn't really impact me as I moved out of home nearly 30 years ago, and haven't had to deal with it full on for a long time - it would just be another way for her to try to paint me as the bad guy to someone else, and I'm never going to give her that opportunity.  I do wish you well.

[goingtostopthis]

Wow Linda,


          Thanks for sharing... .   Interesting that you were talking about probate stuff.  This afternoon my mom walked into the barn as I was getting ready to ride and started going off about how her and my sister had to go see a lawyer today because all my Aunts Assets were now frozen including the checking accounts. It was a confusing conversation to say the least. She mentioned by Aunts debt, 2 credit cards, hugely run up and how my sister was supposively going to pay them off from the church and how its ok now because they were on probate like this was going fix everything?  I got hyper and kept questioning her,  what does this mean? She was so unclear and generalized about it, and then she just got mean, condesending and snippy with me. I finally stood my ground and said , why are you talking to me this way?  I changed the subject and repeated the words acceptance over and over in my head. We talked about the meeting tomorrow and she left. I developed an anxiety attack and realized it was coming from her.

 I rode fast, 20 minutes and ran inside for my computer,one of my best friends, and started looking all this stuff up since I know nothing about it.  I do now.    Why should I know though? Why was she telling me this? Im not on the will. Ms. Busy Body is.  you know.     Anyways,   It sounds like the assets are frozen which is part of the process of the probate period dealing with the will, which means my Aunts Checking accounts are frozen. I have no idea if my sister has transfered money into her own account or not, or if she could even do that as POA.

If not,  she has no money now,  basically.  even if there was even that much money left in it?  

          I also found out this probate period takes along time, sometimes up to a year.  Am I turning evil or insane?    lololol      Im sorry, but I think it serves her right.  Also she cant get past the probate process until this debt is paid off.  My mother said she was going to pay it off from the church, meaning taking the money from the congregation offerings. Is it just me, or is there something not quite ethically right about this?  The average number of people there is like 20 a week.   These credit cards are thousands of dollars! One of them were used for the church years ago, My aunt gave money away to people too,lots of money, and the rest was just her personal expenses devoid of the church.    I know this is very un Christain of me,  but I dont feel so bad anymore. She not getting this place just yet and Im glad.  I really think she thought she had it in the bag while excluding me. She gets debt instead.        lololol   I like my humor.  sorry,cant help it.

                            Maybe I was right.  Maybe her real reason for saying no to me about the deed was because she wants to keep hidden what a big mess she is really in. It seems both of them have made it a new career for themselves hiding this.    If this is the case my sister is going to have to be living off my mother for awhile and she just has her retirement checks and a savings account.  Well, its their thing.  Karma does come around . I really do believe that.  I care, but I dont care.  

                                  Im going to enjoy myself while Im here and think of this place as a spring board to something better in the mean time. Im going to give it chance, see what family therapy has to offer and get myself a better therapist for myself. Now that my Aunt has past, hopefully the stress factor with my sister will  

decrease and my mother. If it wasnt for this one factor which I think I should fairly consider, give them time to normalize you know. Things will hopefully get better,  but now with this probate thing and debt to pay, who knows.

                                  I was upset and anxious for an hour today with this news,  now Im fine, detached more or less.  This is an improvement. Im actually irrationally happy. Thats a good sign of detachment! Immature I know.  But I need a break.   Ive come to terms that Im staying and leaving at the same time. Kind of like building a bomb shelter and stock it a little each week,(metaphorical for throwing out things I dont need anymore, lightening my load and job searching all the time)  just in case.  (  :        

[Naughty Nibbler]

GOING TO... .

I'm experiencing some of the same feelings you are.  At first I was a bit excited when I started reading the "Stop Walking on Eggshell" book, as it described so many of the things my sister was doing.  At least I felt some validation that I wasn't the crazy one.  If you haven't checked out that book, you might read it or get the audio version.  I liked the audio version because I could jump right into it while doing other things.  I went on to get the Kindle version and the accompanying workbook.

Last week, the realization hit me.  As my therapist has indicated to me, I can't fix my sister, and unless she admits she has a problem and seeks help, she is unlikely to change.  I can only work on me and manage how I react to her and set boundaries.

Glad you are seeking a different therapist.  You have to feel comfortable with a therapist and sometimes a particular therapist isn't a match for you.  I feel more comfortable with a female therapist, so that is what I seek.  I guess I feel it is an advantage for me to relate to a female.

It is depressing.  I've had thoughts about whether it is worth it to try and have a relationship with my sister.  I'd have to be the one to always suck it up.   We keep going in a circle, my sister is frequently crabby, has an event of extreme rage, and then a few days later goes on as if nothing happened (no apology, because of course she sees me as the cause of everything).  I've reached the point where I can't go another round, I can't forget the nasty names she called me or the terrible things she says about me.  She never can talk rationally about specific issues and name calling and insulting someone is counter-productive.

REGARDING PROBATE:

I've read a lot on the subject because both of my parents passed recently.  You might want to Google the subject, as there is a lot of helpful material.

My sister and I had financial power of attorney for my parents.  Once they pass, the power of attorney becomes invalid and accounts do freeze.

Unless there is a trust (for property and other assets) or beneficiaries named on accounts (such as bank accounts), some form of probate is generally needed.  It might depend on where you live, but for estates over $150,000, probate can take around a year.  There is a simpler form of probate for estates under $150,000 (or whatever amount applies for where you live).

I can't understand why you mom and sister are taking money from the church, unless it if for their own use or perhaps to pay for  a lawyer.  The process of probate makea sure all bills are paid (credit card debt included).  After all creditors/bills have been paid, the remaining money is distributed in accordance with the will or court order (if there isn't a will).  

Probate can be time consuming and frustrating.  It can be done without a lawyer, but most people  probably use a lawyer.

Hang in there!  My therapist told me today that I need to give my sister 3 compliments before trying to discuss any problem.  I'm still avoiding contact with my sister, as possible.  In case I cave and try to reconcile, I'll have some tools to use.  One thing that has worked for my sister, is to leave the room, house, etc. when she launches into a rage and sometimes she is able to reset after a period of time.  That tatic is not always possible.

Naughty

[Linda Maria]

Hi goingtostopthis!  You sound very clear thinking and in control at the moment - good for you!  I'm in the UK, and the probate laws are probably different.  My uBPDsis and I had to apply for probate - thank god we used a solicitor - it was hard enough then to get my sister to co-operate - and here what happens is, as Naughty says - everything gets frozen until probate is granted, then the executors sign some forms and the monies get released to the probate solicitor usually, who then distributes according to the will.  Here we filed in August - you have 6 months from date of death to file, or you get charge a bit of interest - and it was granted beginning November.  My Mum had some properties, which took the value of the estate to a level where we had to pay some tax, but you don't have to pay the tax for up to 10 years - or when the property is sold, so you don't have to pay it out of your own money.  If there is property you can put it on the market now, but you can't actually complete the sale until you have the grant of probate. Here - you need to get valuations for the property anyway as part of the probate process.   If you need money for legitimate expenses that are payable by the estate, such as arranging the funeral - the estate will release money for that purpose.  Given the somewhat questionable nature of your sister's dealings with your aunt's money - I would suggest using a solicitor, for transparency, although if you are not in the will, they may not be obliged to divulge any information to you - I am not completely clear on your situation.  Like Naughty - I don't quite understand why your sis thinks it would be ok to use church donations to pay off her credit card bills!  Unless I've misunderstood - I think that's called fraud or stealing!  I would check out your position with the solicitor or someone who knows - if you are not in the will, I don't think you have any responsibilities, or liabilities, which could be a blessing, as it sounds like your sister is going to mess about and possibly do silly things that could come back and bite her on the behind later.  My uBPDsis went about accusing me of doing all sorts of things, trying to get deeds put in my name, trying to get money I shouldn't etc.  It wasn't possible or legal for me to do these things, even if I had wanted to, it was all just nasty lies.  But guess what - it's exactly what she was trying to do!  The probate solicitor got the measure of her very quickly, with all her mad letters, and of course it wasn't long before she turned on them, accusing them of all sorts.  I was surprised to see that my sister, who I would call high functioning and intelligent, just was not capable of dealing with the probate paperwork - which was actually just a simple matter of replying to the solicitors requests for information, and signing some forms - she turned it into such a nightmare for everyone - and I can't help thinking your sister will do the same - but that won't be your problem.  Our probate solicitor even said to me off the record that he thought my sis was mentally ill, and when she held things up for so long - I said to him that I was prepared to go to court if necessary to get a court order to get control of the estate as she was deliberately obstructing everything.  He said he thought that I would have to, and if it was him, he would go down the "mentally incompetent" route, and have her removed as an executor.  Fortunately in the end I didn't need to go that far, though I did have to start the court process, so it was costly and stressful for me.  But it did bring about the desired result, so it was worth every penny.  Keep posting - I wish you well.

[goingtostopthis]

  Well,  We has our family therapy session.  It was weird.  Im kind if in shock from it.  I really like the therapist. He was this young guy and really with it.  How he kept up with us Ill never know. He did a fantastic job.


                                                We came into a room where there was just a couch and he asked if anyone wanted a chair and I said yes.  My mom and sister made such a big deal out of this. They wanted me to sit in the middle of them on the couch.  Are they nuts? I said no thank you and took the chair and they got their under wear in a little bunch over that. Why?   I have not a clue.  Everything started out smoothly and I stayed calmed through most of it, to the piont where my sister started criticizeing me for sitting up all prim and proper and claimed that I had changed.  I agree. I said yes, I know , Ive changed.  I think she did this because both her and my mom were the ones doing all the reacting.  Looks like the table were turned a bit doesnt it?

                                                   But as the session continued it started to get really heated up because there they were again fabricaing the truth of things left and right. Saying, I never said that, when she did, and it just went on and on. My sister even denied saying that she said "no' to me about the deed. From origonally telling me because she said she couldnt trust me,  now the new story is because she doesnt like the way I treat her.  The way "I"... .treat her!  Hello?      

                              Finally through series of you said and I said, no I never said that, Hey , Lets re write history?  The two of them started ganging up on me again, true to form, putting me down and trying to prove how wrong I all ways am etc. etc.   Well the therapist stopped them and tactfully said why are you disvalidaing everything she says?  and you are both being very patronizing, what do you hope to accomplish by treating her this way?        I thought I was in a dream.  

As the session went on I just let lose somethings I could no longer hold back.  I told my mother she get mean when she drinks wine. I thought she was going to pass out.  I wanted the truth out. I talked about my horse they they sold with out my permission. And how that horse was gift from my Aunt and special to me, well my mother speaks up and totally disvalidate this by saying,  oh well your Aunt only bought her off so and so hands because no one was givign her any attention and they wanted to get rid of her.  Like the purchase of the horse had nothing to do with me personally.  This is the most rotten mean spirited stuff I have ever heard my mother say. Im in shock. The horse has everything to do with me, this is why my Aunt bought her.  

               This therapist was GOOD!   I tries to put myself in my sister shoes and be understanding about how things have been for her and that I really cared. I really do,  She blew me off.    and the therapist was right in on it with her as to why she was reacting that way when I was being sincere.  He didnt let them get past nothin.

Finally towards the end things got to be a big mess and I dont even remember what I was saying or what they were saying,  all I remember is saying something to my sister and her trying to get up a leave after I said it, and then she sat back down and started to cry and I said because its the truth.    What truth.?.  I draw a blank. I dont remember a word I was saying. Did I block it out?   She got up set and the therapist asked to just talk to her alone and that was the end of the session.  I went home.


All I know is that I know they distort the truth many times, this shouldnt be such a surprise to me,  but the out right lies here today in front of this witness was astounding. I guess its to be expected, right? They cant look bad no matter what. so I have to be wrong all the time.  The therapist took my hand and squeezed in the most reassuring way when I got up to leave, no one saw it.   Im ok.   There's nothing wrong with me. ( :  

[Naughty Nibbler]

GOING TO... .

I'm so glad that the family therapy worked out for you!  It will be interesting to see if your mother and sister will come back for another session.

My sister goes to battle about what she or I said or didn't say.  I read that it is a behavior that BPDs do.  I believe it is supposed to be one of the behaviors that untreated BPD's can't seem to control.  It can become a real deal breaker for me, as it is exasperating to have to constantly go to battle about so many petty things.  I try to change the subject and stop the escalation of anger on my sister's part, but it never works.

It actually doesn't surprise me that my sister swears I didn't share something with her.  She frequently talks over me and won't let me get a word in.  The funny thing is that she starts arguing with herself, as she assumes I was about to say something I wasn't going to say.  Since she can't seem to listen, it seems natural that she claims I never said so many things and then seems to invent other issues in her mind. Once she makes a wrong assumption and begins a rant, I have to try to talk over her to try and stop her wrong assumptions.  Then, it becomes an issue for her that I'm talking over her.  Since I can never change the course of these conversations, the only thing to do is to terminate them quickly.  Then, in my sister's -mind, I'm the one is has unacceptable behavior and talk down to her - no way to win.

Don't worry about forgetting some of the particulars about your session.  You were in a very stressful situation and it is easy for your mind to have some blanks.  I experience that type of thing when I'm in the midst of a stressful situation.  Sometimes, I think that our BPD family members are so worked up for battle whenever they speak with us that they may actually block out anything we say and can only concentrate on what they want to say.  Unless they can try and let us speak and actually listen to us, we will always be in needless battles because of poor communication.

[goingtostopthis]

GOING TO... .

I'm so glad that the family therapy worked out for you!  It will be interesting to see if your mother and sister will come back for another session.

My sister goes to battle about what she or I said or didn't say.  I read that it is a behavior that BPDs do.  I believe it is supposed to be one of the behaviors that untreated BPD's can't seem to control.  It can become a real deal breaker for me, as it is exasperating to have to constantly go to battle about so many petty things.  I try to change the subject and stop the escalation of anger on my sister's part, but it never works.

It actually doesn't surprise me that my sister swears I didn't share something with her.  She frequently talks over me and won't let me get a word in.  The funny thing is that she starts arguing with herself, as she assumes I was about to say something I wasn't going to say.  Since she can't seem to listen, it seems natural that she claims I never said so many things and then seems to invent other issues in her mind. Once she makes a wrong assumption and begins a rant, I have to try to talk over her to try and stop her wrong assumptions.  Then, it becomes an issue for her that I'm talking over her.  Since I can never change the course of these conversations, the only thing to do is to terminate them quickly.  Then, in my sister's -mind, I'm the one is has unacceptable behavior and talk down to her - no way to win.

Don't worry about forgetting some of the particulars about your session.  You were in a very stressful situation and it is easy for your mind to have some blanks.  I experience that type of thing when I'm in the midst of a stressful situation.  Sometimes, I think that our BPD family members are so worked up for battle whenever they speak with us that they may actually block out anything we say and can only concentrate on what they want to say.  Unless they can try and let us speak and actually listen to us, we will always be in needless battles because of poor communication.

Naughty,

       Ya it does seem to be a one way street most of the time. This session has been very painful for me. My mother said a really mean thing to me that I cant get out of my head. I had to think, was this said after "I" said youre mean when you drink wine?  It probably was.  So I guess I have to understand if you throw an arrow out there get ready for another one to be coming back your way. And it did. except what I said was true, what she said wasnt in any way.

                       I was wondering too, are they going to want to go to the next session or just quit?  It wouldnt surprise me if they just quit. I dont think they want to have the fore sight to know that the first sessions are all ways the toughest. I for myself personally dont see the need anymore for finger pointing, you said, I never did, stuff.  I think this therapist learned everything he needed to know just from observing us this one time. I think he deserves a metal. I feel we had to go through this in order for him to get the picture. Then the next appointment hopefully things can get constructive.   BUT!   are they going to want to go back?  I have no clue. I do know if they dont, I can say Ive found my new therapist.  Ill see him alone. I like him.

                        Boy!  I have to say. It does make me wonder if both my mom and sister have some form of BPD. Everything was just defense /attack/defense/attack... .     It was exhausting!

                                     I think what is happening is that they are both very controlling and have been trying to force me into my old role with them. I wasnt reacting to them during the first half of the session and it was flipping them out.  I mean, I was talking to them but not becoming upset and emotional.,until one of them out right verbally attack me for sitting in the chair like I was all prim and proper.   I just sat there and said nothing. Yae for me!    This is why I think they said I wasnt the same person anymore. They said it like there was something wrong with me. No, there is everything right with me.   I am  my own person and not emeshed with them like they want me to be, under their illusionary control. I really think this is a big part of the issue here.

         I talked about the deed and how this has hurt me and mentioned that I had to confront my sister to answer me yes or no. Am I on it?  She denied ever saying no!  and then told the therapist that I was threatening her because I said I would have to find another place to live then. The therapist said "Threatening you?"  How is that?   She couldnt answer him. Then I went on to say, I need to do whats best for me.  You know why should I invest my money and hard work in a place that isnt even mine.  What security would I have?   Anyways,  his reaction was perfect... .The same as mine. The same as my brothers.  How is this a threat?  The only answer I can come up with is that she wants me here to use me, mow the lawn etc.  I never came out and said this to the therapist, but it feels to me like ya!  She owns the place, bosses me around as her underling and I have no autonomy what so ever, just guilt trips thrown right and left. She cant keep this place up alone,  but this isnt my problem,its hers.

There's a history of my mom and sister trying to use me before. They did quite often when I was younger. All I can say is that dynamics dont change over night. And what those two got going is dysfunctional and abusive. I read some where that there are 3 stages of resistance when one family member decides to change and be more separate, hence no longer controlled. The third is the worse.  I hope today was the third. If they dont come back to therapy, then ya!  its hopeless .  Ill have to cope until I find a new place for how ever long that may be. God help me.             

[Linda Maria]

Hi goingtostopthis!  Wow - sounds like the therapy went amazingly well - congratulations!  I was a bit worried that your sister would hijack the whole thing, but the therapist was obviously very skilled, and as you say, even if they won't come back for more - this guy has a very clear picture now of what you are dealing with - and I think you have found a great therapist.  Really pleased for you, I think you will go from strength to strength with this sort of support - it is such a relief when someone you respect and trust, and who has no personal axe to grind themselves can totally see the situation for what it is - you realise it is not you who is the bad guy, or the one who is nuts.  Well done!

Naughty - from reading your posts - I think we have been in a similar situation.  I too have always found my sister difficult and awkward, but we have had (what I thought was) a reasonable relationship in the past - probably because I am not confrontational, walked on eggshells to a certain extent, but also - I moved out of home nearly 30 years ago - so I haven't had to deal directly with her on a daily basis for a long time.  Like you, after my Mum died 2 years ago (my Dad passed away 18 years before), we were a good team at first sorting everything out (again - largely because I did everything her way, did all the donkey work etc).  I would have been quite happy to continue like that, to keep the peace and get everything sorted, but one day she started talking about how we should deal with my Mum's properties, and I made some (completely rational and reasonable) suggestions which she clearly didn't like, although she never said so, she just got nasty and started saying weird things.  That's when it all went wrong, and she made life hell, and held things up for nearly 2 years.  She made life hell for everyone involved, the estate agents, solicitors etc.  At the beginning, I was so upset by what she was telling people, I emailed her to say - look these are my thoughts - but I really don't mind how we split things up - tell me what you want to do, and I'm sure we can agree - as it's not worth spoiling our relationship over.  I wasn't really that bothered how we did it - I was more concerned to get it done and finished so the nightmare would stop - if that meant she got what she wanted and I didn't - as long as we had an equal share - I didn't really care.  She never came out and said what her suggestions were - she just started a vile and mad smear campaign that is still going on.  I have never understood what purpose it served - as we have very few mutual friends in common, and those we do are not close friends of mine, so if they believe it, well, I can live with that. We do have one set of family friends who are close to us both - they would never take sides - but she knows I have had some contact with them, so has split them black as well - which they are really upset about - they have always treated her like family, and just want to help her.  While I think she has BPD, there is no getting away from the fact that she has consciously made repeated and deliberate attempts to stop me getting my fair and legal share, has cost us both a lot of extra money because of all the problems she caused, and also has ended up with a lot more than me, as she used estate money to fund her living in my Mum's house for 2 years(although she has her own house) and took all my Mum's jewellery, everything of value in the house etc.  How can this stuff make them happy?  What is so rewarding about behaving like this?  It's just plain nasty.  Like you - I think - I am now NC as far as possible - and it works - I am gradually feeling normal again.  I cannot imagine having her back in my life again - and I sometimes wonder if this is the price I had to pay for being free, if she hadn't started this campaign,  and eventually I reached my limit, I think she would have been a really negative drain on me for the rest of my life, constantly being needy, and creating dramas, so I sometimes think I've had a lucky escape long term!

[goingtostopthis]

Naughty and Linda,

      Ive been thinking and I think we all need to really give ourselves a lot of credit for what weve had to deal with.

       It isnt easy that's for sure.  I have finally had to come to terms tonight that my mother isnt all there.

                          Ive been sitting here in my room all twisted up inside over some of the comments my sister and mom made to this therapist. Unpleasant stuff has been coming up in memory.  He asked them both if they thought there was a chance things would ever get better. And they both said "no" real harshly in unison.  This is why I thought they both were going to quit this therapy. And ya! it really upset me.  So Ive been sitting here in limbo not knowing and feeling like ___ over their lying and mean, stupid, irrational comments to me.

                             Anyways, my mother calls and wants me to come over for  dinner this Sunday. And of course its done in a tone as if nothing happened at all yesterday. Seems pretty awkward to me. I asked her if she and my sister wanted to continue the therapy and she said: "Of Course!" like la de da... .I need an icon with a hammer hitting a head.

I am sorry, but my mother has a side that can be so poisonous and destructive and then the next day its like nothing ever happened. Everything is sun flowers and sunshine.  Is this a form of denial? She does this all the time. Its like she pretends, and why tell this Therapist what they thought so convincingly if in the end its just meaningless nothing stuff!  I feel like I should pick up drinking as a new habit, either that or steal some morphine from an ambulance.     

                        I think what is really hard to deal with , with difficult people(BPD or whatever) is the acceptance you have to go through that something isnt quite right with them. In many ways I know it can release you from them and make it easier to detach and not take them so personally.  It's still hard.  I think my mother is missing some screws. Its like she just isnt all there sometimes and has no clue what so ever how her behavior effects you. , and if you bring it up, like HI!  Im here too with feelings,   then she gets all defensive and mean and treats you like you have two heads or something and doesnt know WHAT! youre talking about.   What is that?  BPD? Narcissism? Alcoholism?  All three?   Right now, from talking to her on the phone,its like Yesterday never happened and weve all ways gotten along.  wild... .wild sheet,  thats all I can say.

                                                                                            She isnt all there. Its hard to see this in your own mother and she may even get worse with age.  So this is another reason to stop torturing myself over things I have no control over.  Do any of you have this struggle in acceptance to your sisters?  You know how there is all ways a part of you that wants to think of them as being normal and there is like a part of your brain that is all ways fighting with the un normal part in hopes that maybe someday you will win and then they will be normal?     

[Linda Maria]

Hi goingtostopthis!  Sorry to hear how you're feeling.  You've come such a long way since I first started reading your posts, and you've been very strong to get through everything so far.  But I know what you mean.  I am through the bulk of the legal stuff with my sister, there are still a few things to get sorted, but I'm not so stressed about those.  And in a few months it should truly be over, and there will be no need to have any contact at all.  I still think about the situation a lot, though I deal with it much better, but I still have times when I feel so angry, and sad about it all.  I know I haven't done anything wrong, I didn't deserve this, and I don't know any better way I could have handled it.  I tried to keep the moral high ground all the way through, I didn't call her nasty names back, I didn't talk to that many people about it (no point - most people just cannot understand),  and I only took really strong steps - like starting court proceedings - when there was no other choice.  I never did anything with revenge in mind, I have only ever wanted the nightmare to end, and unless I got the legal and estate stuff finalised the nightmare would have continued and in fact got worse.  I don't want to see or hear from my sister, because I never want to go through this again, and unless she understands she has a problem and gets help, nothing will change for her.  I feel sad because I don't bear her any real ill will, and I don't like to think of her being unhappy, lonely, stuck in this awful cycle.  There is just her and me left from our FOO, she has no partner or children, and has pushed away the family friends we have in common, who are the one set of people I feel confident would want to help her.  So I do wonder what will happen to her.  I don't feel responsible because I know I couldn't put myself back in the firing line, and so I can't help her, but I still think it's so sad.  And sometimes I feel angry, when I hear indirectly something someone has said, and I realise she is still telling stories to people,  and that they probably think possibly some of it is true.  They are not people who are particularly important to me, but it hurts that they could believe any of it for one minute.  That's something I have to work on, letting go of that sort of guilty feeling, because the truth is, those people probably don't want to be involved, and how can I blame them for wondering?  Despite things having improved vastly from where I was a year ago, the fact is, I am not "over" it, and I'm not sure I ever will be.  I don't mean that my life is ruined over it, very far from that, and my experience is nothing compared to people here who have been raised by BPD parents, or are living with BPD partners, I just wish I could find something positive in the whole thing.  Stay strong my friend - we will all  get there - I don't know what I would have done without this site though!

[goingtostopthis]

Linda,

     There is a lot of good that can be gained through family situations like this, though when you are going through it , it can be hard to see sometimes.   Ive realized for myself a good part of my boyfriend relationship problems have stemmed from the way Ive been trained to interact with in my family. For example the issue of validation. I remember once looking back in one of my journals when I was with this guy I was in love with but he was hurting me terribly. The word not being validated came up like every other sentence. I never did this consciously, but some how Id attract the very person who would emulate dynamics just like the ones in my family. With my family or with out them on my own I was still carrying the hell and acting it out with someone else. The real hell was feeling that I never had any control over this. Im not saying you should still have a relationship with your sister though, certainly not.

          Im in a situation now where I am walking on a tight robe. Like Leon Russel, my top hat is all they can see.,one side is hate and the other is hope. Im obsessed with their nonsense just like I used to get obsessed with hurtful men,  same feeling, that's why I know the source of this problem has started with my family. Im in the mouth of the volcano.  Or Im in the engine of a car where there engine needs to be totally rebuild. Meaning the way I act and feel needs to completely change if Im going to ever get out of their controlling web. AND! I have made great strides, I mean geeze I got them into family therapy. I never thought that would ever be possible, but the truth of the matter is I dont think I will ever make this place my home permanently and eventually in time, I "will" most likely leave. I can say that when I do Im going to be a very strong, wise, true person who will attract the same into my life. No more nonsense. 

            The therapist held my sister over when the session was over. I cant help but wonder what he said to her.

I would like to think he said, you know you cant expect your sister to stay and take care of the place and not feel used if youre not going to put her on the deed as well.  And then Id burst through the door with a blow horn and say , that's right, why is my leaving a threat to you? It means you wont be able to USE ME! doesnt it!  anyways,   this is how this feels to me.  The therapist held her over because she started to cry. I cant figure out why she started to cry? Im not going to knock myself out over this, but it just goes to show that Ive been right, not in mean way, but in an understanding way. She has problems. I said that from the first day I was here and no one in my family would listen to me. Isnt that usually how it goes.

                     The only thing Im disturbed about now, is what my mom and sister told this therapist. That they didnt think anything would change and nothing good would come of this, or something to that effect. Then the next day my mom calls me and wants me to come over for dinner Sunday night,  like nothing happened! Everything's good kind of tone.  I dont trust it.  is this evil thinking of me, or is she doing this because she has a need to somehow reestablished their control over me because I had a bit of the upper hand because the therapist defended me. How can I feel comfortable and SAFE! when nothing was resolved in this session? It was them telling their side and me telling mine and the air in the room was awful!  awful feeling, resentment,anger and pain from both sides.   Is my mom out of her mind?  I asked if they could come over here, because I was too afraid to say no and to explain why.  I know she will get mad at me if I call her back and say Im not comfortable doing this yet.  This is a problem.       I really do need feedback on this. What is wrong with my mother?  What is she thinking? I am still intimidated.  They intimidate me bad!   

[goingtostopthis]

WOW!     

          I just called my mom and explained to her how I felt about waiting for another session since the first one nothing was really resolved. I even told her about me hearing what they both said and that this was upsetting to me and this is why I didnt think they would return to this therapist with me.  She started to get all affended, since she all ready went out bought all this food. guilt, guilt,     and that she didnt see why I felt this way and I could feel her starting to get really mad.  I just kept my cool and stayed steady and acted like an adult and explain why I felt this way again. I said my sister was upset and I thought it would be better if we waited until the next session where we will have a chance now to begin working things out.  bla bla bla... .I said I was concerned we might fight.   Finally, she's like, oh ok.   no problem,  la de da... .   I think she's BPD.  seriously.

                          Is this woman in another world, or very manipulative? Or souped in denial?  There is nothing wrong with my feelings or reasoning at all,  yet she has this way making you feel like youre from Planet Mars.

Anyways,    5 stars for me *****                 

[Linda Maria]

Hi gointostopthis!  When you first reported back on the therapy session - you were very positive, because you could see that your therapist had the measure of the situation.  Obviously it will take more than one session to really effect change - but I think you have to trust the therapist and give it time.  I wouldn't worry at all about anything your sister and Mum say in confidence to the therapist - at some point - if it has any relevance - he will probably bring it up - but he sounds to me like someone who will see and hear everything they say very clearly - i.e. he won't take it at face value.  I think it is probably quite a wise move not to see them between sessions in the early days - you are right - if you feel you have made some progress, then you see them socially and it all goes pear-shaped, you will worry that it will affect the therapy.  You are probably right to be honest with them about this - but you are telling the truth - when you tell them that you value your relationship with them, you really want it to be better, and you feel the therapy could really help, so you don't want to risk any hiccups in between for now.  Difficult one to spin I know, as clearly you would rather not see them!  So you have to decide how to play that one.  But if you are civil, and just "busy", then there is no reason for them to take offence (though they may anyway - if they feel they are losing control of you). May be worth bringing this up with the therapist, in front of them.   You sound like I felt about 18 months ago - I was in the eye of the storm - receiving very regular hateful letters and texts, and terrified that the business of sorting out Mum's estate would be prolonged for ever, keeping me in the nightmare.  I was constantly ruminating and catastrophizing, and analysing - if I do this - then she will probably do this - and then that will happen etc.   This is something I really had to stop doing - it made no difference to the outcome, because I couldn't control what she did, the only thing I could control was the contact I had with her, which I minimized.  I know you can't do that the same way because of their proximity to you, and because, to your credit, you are still interested in trying to improve things.  IMO, I think in the long term you will be much better off, and much happier when they are not such a big part of your life - having distance from these relationships makes a massive difference.  I think you are thinking that as well.  With that in mind - it's worth thinking about what you really want to happen, and how you would react if in fact there was a change, and you ended up inheriting part of your Aunt's estate after all.  With my sister - I felt very strongly that the fact that she could "control" things to an extent all the time the estate remained unresolved - because we were legally bound together as beneficiaries, and co-executors - gave her an incentive to delay and obstruct as long as possible.  I absolutely hated the feeling of being manipulated.  My Mum's estate was quite substantial, and my Mum and Dad would not have wanted me to just walk away from it, but there were times when I seriously thought about just saying - you know what - you have it all - just so I could walk away, but I'm glad now that I didn't, and that I fought for what was mine, even though I should never have had to.  It's early days, but it may be that this inheritance, or the prospect of it - may be used as a weapon to control you - and depending on how much you think the relationship will improve, and how much difference the inheritance would make to your life, you may need to think about what it really means.  With me - there was property involved - and my sister refused to discuss or agree what should happen - even though I said I would go along with whatever she wanted - i.e. she could buy me out of my share if she wanted to keep it, or we could sell it.  In the end she agreed to sell - but made it impossible at every stage, preventing viewings, not replying to the estate agents or solicitors etc.  We very nearly lost the sale - I'm amazed we didn't - but I thought I was going to have to go all the way to court to get a court order.  It was a very stressful year - that's how long it took - and the whole time - I never knew if it would happen, or if I would have to go to court in the end.  So if you end up with an agreement that you get something - make sure you get it legally agreed, and also what then happens - otherwise it could be used to keep you dangling and prevent you getting on with your own life.  Don't forget though - you have made massive progress - you have got them to agree to family therapy - you have found what sounds like a great therapist - you are moving this situation in the right direction, so well done!  You have come a long way!  Keep posting.  Best wishes.

[goingtostopthis]

    I think I did the right thing. One of the major problems I have with them is being ganged up on. This hasnt been addressed yet in therapy. I have to address this and it has got to stop.

                                When my mother asked me over for dinner on Sunday night  and I accepted I developed this overwhelming feeling of anxiety that wouldnt go away. It was like a panic attack. I cant prove this but I couldnt help to feel that this was my mother's manipulative way of dealing with "her" anxiety of losing control over this situation. I cant prove this again but I had this realization that  maybe my sister isnt one who been the real problem. My mother has done numerous things in the past to help divide me and my sister up. She plays so innocent but I know she is equally apart of keeping this problem alive. After everything that was said and exposed at this session, the thought of having to be alone with those two at their mercy was more then I could bare.  They were both attacking me the day before, what? like magic on Sunday night everything is going be cheerful and rosey?  If my mother wants to pretend that's her thing, but for me the situation would have been "really" uncomfortable.   

                  I will take a jump here, but I think this was nothing but controlling manipulation on my mother's part.

I think she knew darn well this would be akward, uncomfortable and tension filled for me and my sister. How on earth could it not be? This is crazy making. Not only does she seem totally cut off from reality but totally cut off to my feelings and how this would be experienced by me and my sister due to the circumstances. Its a type of controlling maneuver on her part. I know it, because I know her. Im  a bit mind blown by this though. I had this realization coming out of the bathroom after a shower and it just hit me. All I could do was freeze in place and stare out the window like I just saw the second coming of Christ.  Conscious or unconscious on her part, it doesnt matter.  Keeping this tension going as far as Im concerned is a form of sabotage. Getting me to lose it and react due to the over whelming tension and feelings of "having" to pretend along with them which is awkward will give them both the oppurtunity again to gang up on me, which is intimidation , which is them feeling they are in control again.  Its like a set up.

I want to get along with my sister and Im wondering now if maybe this isnt one my mother's fears. I dont know,

maybe Im crazy, maybe Im right on it. Either way I react to them in an upset manner, I lose. and the two against one senerio really pushes my buttons and they know it. This is why this must be addressed before we can begin to get along again. 

                Setting boundaries can be so hard!  And I think telling my mother no this time in this circumstance was a boundary. How she deals with this is her problem. She didnt get her way and Im stronger now enough to say, it's about time.   

                               

[goingtostopthis]

Im came across some interesting videos today. I dont know if I can show them on here but I'll give it a try. One thing for sure that is that is with people who have BPD,  Narcissism often but not all ways trails right behind it... .

                                   I hope no is dissapointed or thinks that I am sliding backwards from how Ive gotten better from all this. I still have confidence that I can deal with this but I feel I need to take this detour in reference to my mother and take into serious consideration that she might have narcissistic tendancies and is very possibly very resposible for the break down in my relationship with my sister.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxDKS2GxZZ8

                                                       I came across a series of videos done by this girl where she recorded her conversations with her Nar. mother. She did a lot of them!  I dont think Id ever dare do this, put up videos, but its quite a story this girl has if you listen to more then one tape. Its easy to talk about the dysfunction in ones family, but when its actually taped recorded its kind of mind blowing to might the similarities of what's going on with your own mother or sister or brother and dad.  What did mother did to this girl was horrendous, and lied abouit it the whole way,making up stories etc.  man, and all I could think about it how in several ways she sounded just like my mother.  Its gotten me to realize that what Im picking up about mine is not in  my imagination.   There is the golden child and the scapegoat.  Sometimes in teh beginning it doesnt sound like this mother is saying anything wrong at all,  but if you listen long enough you'll pick it up.  I think this is a good education thing to listen to because it helps you to put names to certain behavior, you know to indentify  it  in other cases where youd feel it but not know what just happened.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XrERYEVrFs