Invasion or sleaze?

[Ziggiddy]

I am painfully slow at recognising insult or invasion.

Because my father has been taking consistent and real steps to try and mend the breach between us (caused by his following uBPDm's violent lead and his naivete in trusting that she knew what she was doing throughout our younger years) I have relented about my kids visiting with them.

My mother also has made some partial acknowledgement as to her input into my CPTSD, so I gave partial forgiveness.

And so, in my blind naivete, despite the consistent advice of all the experience others have had, I went ahead and took them there for a weekend visit.

My mother, despite her conditional status with us went ahead and did the most provocative thing (imagine your shock).

This was quite different than the usual emotional instability.

In the cant of a silly conversation with rhyming words, she reached out, lightning fast and poked my 11 yo daughter in her breast.

It was done in an almost adolescent playful way, and to my eternal regret, I did not recognise it for what it was.

I did tell my mother not to do that, in the most reasonable tone you can imagine. But it didn't sink in with me what it meant.

A day later it started to. And provoked memories of her doing the same to me. Plenty of poking in the boob or squeezing or 'goosing' or just incredibly inappropriate touches.

Also when I was pregnant, just before I was due, grabbing my boob and milking it to see if I had milk yet.

Were they sexual? I don't really think so - she seems almost frigid sexually although I am not ruling this out.

Were they weak boundaries? Again I didn't think so.

It seemed the intent was to just go ahead and do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted to whomever she wanted.

I am so sickened.

I knew for certain in the moment  that it was this impotence to react to invasion that led directly to me being sexually assaulted by someone else as a teenager.

I spoke to my D11 and explained quite emphatically that NO ONE is allowed to touch her like that.

I do not want her set up the same way.

I am really not sure where to go with this next.

[Turkish]

Zig,

That was incredibly improper to say the least. Sexual assualt? I hope your D is ok, and I can only imagine by what you wrote how many painful memories it brought back.

Though I sense that you didn't want to cause an incident in front of everyone, perhaps, I think it might be prudent to tell your mom, forcefully, perhaps, that if she ever touches her granddaughter like that again she will be forbidden from seeing her.

I know that's easy for me to say, but as the father of a daughter, I am very angry reading this. For your D, and you. Can you talk to your mom? It may be good not bringing up the past (since she obviously hasn't changed), but you can focus on the here and now.

[Mike-X]

Thank you for posting this. I am so sorry to hear about all that you have been through. Can you help me to understand the distinction you are making between a boundary violation and imposing her will?

[Ziggiddy]

Hi guys

Thanks for replying.

Mike-X distinguishing between the two: I might say "Mum please don't fill my car up with shopping" but then she fills the car up with shopping. Or I say "please don't dump that bag of clothes in the doorway - I'm working here" and she says "Oh I'll just be a minute" then dumps the clothes in the doorway.

Partly it is about doing whatever the hell she wants, partly about making sure I know I don't have the right to influence her behaviour (that's the imposition of will) and partly about deciding in which arena I actually have rights.

Turkish - I appreciate your response. And I am grateful for seeing another view.

Yes it seems like sexual assault in a way. This was because if I imagined a man doing it - a stranger or relative I would have kicked them hard in a most personal way and then threatened them with a lawsuit.

It seems I can only clarify it by imagining it happening to someone else.

Your response also made me think of how when I was on the verge of womanhood as my daughter is (both early developers and large for our ages) was when Mum's beltings reached a new ballistic level. Quite traumatic but also this sense of shrinking back and becoming incredibly ashamed rather than just self conscious.

Yes I am quite churned up and I think it's for more than one reason.

I carefully considered what approach to take when i saw her the next day but she suddenly had a return of an old back injury so bad she had to leave quickly.

My instinct was to rage at her but I put a number of things together which imply that she has no moral compass.

It should not be necessary to explain to someone that this is very bad and very wrong.

To illustrate, this one time (the same year she was getting so violent with me) she arranged a public beating of my brother, pulled his pants down and whacked the living crap out of him in front of maybe 20 of the neighbourhood kids.

2 weeks later she took him to the next door neighbour and proudly showed her how he was still bruised from the beating.

This is not someone who I think is worth reasoning with regarding what is right and wrong.

And naturally she will never be allowed to be alone with either of my daughters ever again.

i am shattered by the whole thing.

Barely able to restrain myself from responding in kind actually.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Zigiddy!  Was so shocked by your post - just had to respond just to say how sorry I am that this happened to your daughter.  From your daughter's point of view, as this is a one-off - I would not think she will be majorly affected.  But I think you are quite right not to allow any of your kids to be on their own, or physically close with your mother again.  I have not been through what you have - my pwBPD (undiagnosed) is my sister, and since all the nightmare started 2 years ago, I am now largely NC and don't live close fortunately.  I put up with a lot in terms of her smear campaign in the early days, just hoping things would calm down if I didn't fan the flames, but one of the lines crossed quite early on was when she started lying about my kids, and using lies about them to bait me.  That was just completely unacceptable to me.  Later - she started lying about my late mother, and saying that I had violated her deathbed wishes - the things she said were so vile.  And again, a line was crossed.  It's funny - all the awful things I was accused of - I managed to stomach for a long time, but once she dragged my kids, and then my late mother into her vendetta, that was it for me.  So frankly - I wouldn't blame you if you never took them to see her again, but I can imagine how difficult that would be, and hard on your dad, who is clearly trying to do the right thing.  Stay strong!  Best wishes.

[Woolspinner2000]

Ziggiddy,

I'm so sorry, both for your daughter and for you to have to go through this.   I recall when my 22 year old D2 was visiting with uBPD Gma, she got an up close and personal taste of Gma splitting, with my D2 being the brunt of the vile sting and rage. She called me in tears, and all I could start with was, "I am so sorry, so very sorry that you had to experience that. I had hoped you would never go through anything like what I did." Since that time, she has been totally convinced of the irrational behavior which a BPD shows, and she knew to watch out for Gma ever after. She was not majorly affected by the experience, but she was very careful whenever she was around Gma.

I'm glad you are angry and able to feel and experience that anger. You are right to be so. It was and is wrong what your mom did, very much so,  and of course she cannot be trusted.

Now, a tough question for you (but only if you can handle it). Are you feeling angry with yourself for letting them go and visit? If so, how are you doing with that and with you?

An extra hug for you, Zig. 

Wools

[Harri]

Hi Ziggiddy.

Invasion or sleaze?

Sleazy invasion.

I am painfully slow at recognising insult or invasion.

Because the unacceptable, the abusive, the manipulative, etc was a part of your existence for so long.  Abnormal was normal and you learned to tolerate/accommodate the intolerable.   You did however, see it immediately when it involved your daughter.     And you figured out the significance in a fairly short amount of time and remembered your own experiences.    

This is not someone who I think is worth reasoning with regarding what is right and wrong.

I agree. 

Another question, related to the one wools asked is why do you want your kids to visit with your parents or have a relationship with them? 

[Ziggiddy]

Linda Maria - thank you for your support and helpful insight.

I can imagine how painful it would have been to hear 'you had violated her deathbed wishes.' Man it makes my blood just boil how they do this. Turn it around and make it YOUR fault.

I have been lulled into the sense of oh this disorder is manageable; it's not so bad. Just don't poke the bear but man ... .I am so annoyed with that injustice. I don't care why she said that to you it's just wrong, just inexcusable. Grrrrr

I put up with a lot in terms of her smear campaign in the early days, just hoping things would calm down if I didn't fan the flames, but one of the lines crossed quite early on was when she started lying about my kids, and using lies about them to bait me.

Nothing is sacred is it?

I remember there being this kind of code between rival gangs that no one messes with a family members. yeah violent street gangs can refrain but not our sick relatives. I am impressed with your forebearance. i heavily identify with that x

Wools - thank you for what you said. I am sorry your daughter had to see that but I can see that you possibly get the silver lining in that she was 'awakened' to the fact that Gma was not all that.

Oddly enough after deciding to shut my mouth, uBPDm rang yesterday and I decided to have it out Like I have seen adults do.

I conveyed my controlled disgust and asked for some kind of explanation. She didn't know, didn't think it was that bad - "Hope this doesn't sound hurtful but my generation had to take responsibility for themselves. There were no counsellors, no therapists - we just got on with things."

Unconcealed contempt toward me that I would be seeing a T. I am still wound up like a spring.

Are you feeling angry with yourself for letting them go and visit? If so, how are you doing with that and with you?

I am, Wools. i am angry at myself but also thinking it is partly emotional flashback response because it is out of proportion to the event.

I am more angry at her shot that I am weak for seeking help. I know it is related to her being annoyed that Dad is paying for it.

What am I doing about it? TBH nothing healthy. Simmering. Playing scenarios in my head. Just trying to discharge it.

On the bright side my pacifist nature is wildly provoked! I am feeling that forbidden emotion- ANGER AT MY MOTHER!

Harri

Thank you for both the point that I recognised it quickly (just discussing this with Wools not long ago!) and your excellent question. Which is making me squirm uncomfortably.

I don't know why. i do know i am having a childish reaction to the idea of not. Almost panicky.

I will have to think about that.

Thank you so much for your support guys.

[Turkish]

Oddly enough after deciding to shut my mouth, uBPDm rang yesterday and I decided to have it out Like I have seen adults do.

I conveyed my controlled disgust and asked for some kind of explanation. She didn't know, didn't think it was that bad - "Hope this doesn't sound hurtful but my generation had to take responsibility for themselves. There were no counsellors, no therapists - we just got on with things."

Unconcealed contempt toward me that I would be seeing a T. I am still wound up like a spring.

So she's not taking responsibility for the assault. She is who she is, Zig. Congratulations for confronting her about it though. That's for you. That's for your daughter. Where do you see this going from her?

Growing up in invalidating households where we were told how to feel, impliciltly or explicitely, it's so hard to break out of the pattern for feeling responsible for our parents' feelings, even decades after we may have moved out. I view it as a milestone that you were able to even talk to her about it.

[Harri]

Hi again Zig.  

This, right here, is excellent--->

On the bright side my pacifist nature is wildly provoked! I am feeling that forbidden emotion- ANGER AT MY MOTHER!

This shows that walls within you have been broken down and that you see yourself as someone who has value and who has the fundamental right to be teated with love and respect and that other people, even your mother (!), has no right to infringe on your basic rights as a human being.  

So, maybe rather than trying to diffuse the anger you feel, celebrate and embrace it and then channel it further.  Acknowledge that you are right/allowed to be angry.  Actually, whether you realize it or not, you already did those things when you "conveyed my controlled disgust and asked for some kind of explanation."  Bravo! <listen to my cheers and applause here!   )  Please please do not let the fact that she was unable to view her own behavior as invasive, abusive and belittling dull the vibrancy of what I see as a wonderful example of self respect and self love.  Like Turkish said, "She is who she is, Zig."  

Random thought:  Being a pacifist does not mean you do not feel anger or the urge to lash back at those who hurt/disrespect/belittle us.  Our thoughts and feelings do not define us (this is the basis of the new kick I am on).  Some of the greatest pacifists in the world are angry and express it freely.  So why do we (or, more accurately, why do *I*) think the fact that I am angry makes me a bad/war-loving person?   I very much like your "I conveyed my controlled disgust... .".  I've always wanted to be able to express my anger with grace and panache, without fanning the flames in my own self but at the same time, not holding it in either.  I think you achieved that here.  For me, with certain things, I will just be happy at this point if I can express my anger without spit being involved.  

As to the question I asked and the squirmy, panicky feeling, follow that.  Chances are there is some belief, possibly regarding what family is supposed to be/do, involved here.  

[Woolspinner2000]

Ziggiddy,

I'm soo glad that you are experiencing the anger! Even if you feel part of it is emotional flashback, fully feel it just as you are already. I remember when I posted about my own time of exaggerated feelings and you encouraged me to feel. I recognized something was not right because my reaction was far beyond the infraction. That's when I needed to pull out my feeling wheel to help me identify what was going on. Quite insightful that little exercise for it helped me to pinpoint much better the true source of my feelings, which of course was related to my uBPDm.

Do you have a feeling wheel or list of feeling words? An exercise my T gives me from time to time is to tell him what I'm feeling without using the main category word. In this case, anger is one of those main category words. Maybe you feel enraged, hostile, offended, resentful, inflamed, provoked, or boiling to name a few. Could any of these also apply: crushed, heartbroken, appalled? I might feel those things were I in your shoes, especially about my kids. Those feelings go back to 'hurt' as a main category.

I really liked Turkish's point that "she is who she is." Nothing will change that. It sounds so final, doesn't it?  I think with my own children, I really hoped that they could see Gma differently than I did. So I didn't color their picture of her with my box of crayons but let them draw their own conclusions. Guess what? In the end they used the same shades of colors as I did, just from a different crayon box, because they were intelligent enough to see Gma for who she really was, a uBPD.


Wools

[Turkish]

With regard to my Ex, my T said, "I sense that a lot of your anger is based upon you expecting her to be someone or something she is not."

[pessim-optimist]

I am so sorry Ziggiddy for the bad experience with your mother... . 

There seem to be two sides to all this: protecting your daughter and your own healing.

I agree with others that the strong reaction you had is a healthy thing. Things are coming out (your healthy feelings that have been stuffed and banished for years) and healing is on its way. You were not allowed to feel and express those feelings as a child and so you could not develop healthy boundaries (and I am sorry, you are right on - it is true that that made you more vulnerable to assault later on in life  :'(   )... .

Now you are building those boundaries from the inside out. The past cannot be changed, but now, it can all turn to something positive: healing for you and a better life for your kids.

Like someone else said, thankfully, your D11 won't be scarred for life from this one experience (not to minimize what happened - that was absolutely out of line). Your D11 has the benefit of growing up in a safe home with you, so she will have the instincts to protect herself and also develop better boundaries. Most likely, she will grow up to think that 'grandma' is 'weird' and isn't safe. She will instinctively learn to keep her distance.

... .I didn't color their picture of her with my box of crayons but let them draw their own conclusions. Guess what? In the end they used the same shades of colors as I did, just from a different crayon box, because they were intelligent enough to see Gma for who she really was, a uBPD.

I like this. This is the living proof of the next generation growing up healthy. Thanks to having good parents, these kids have the benefit of developing better boundaries early on, and coming to their own conclusions quickly without the many painful experiences their parents had to go through (because their natural boundaries have been trampled and just about obliterated by the very people that should have been there to protect them)  .