I am 2 weeks post BU

[Achaya]

I am 2 weeks post BU and still have some contact with my ex while we settle business and get through a few final conversations. Consequently I have had the opportunity to ask her as many questions about her current feelings as I had the courage to ask, which actually wasn't many. She has also told me quite a bit about her previous relationships, and what she has done with me is an exact replication, so I believe she will treat memories of me the same ways she treated my predecessors.

My ex warned me at the start of our relationship that she drives her partners crazy. She said she gets into the relationship and everything is wonderful, then she starts to withdraw. She told me that her partners would "freak out" when she did this, and go into acute grief states that she couldn't empathize with. They would pursue her to try to reconnect, and would irritate her by desperately asking "Are we ok? Are you ok?" until she took them into her arms, made love with them, and reassured them repeatedly that she was back in the relationship. At some point, after many cycles of withdrawal and re-engagement, she would "lose feeling" for them, and simply no longer be "interested." She told me she recalls holding her rejected partners while they sobbed, and she felt nothing at all. After she "walked away" from these relationships, often leaving a lot of possessions behind for the grieving partner to sort out, she was done forever. She told me she never misses any of the former partners, nor regrets leaving them. She feels bad about "hurting people," and told me that she has not been rejected by anyone in her adult life. She always does the rejecting. Even so, I watched her go through a cycle of rage at her ex because the ex changed her FB relationship status after my partner moved out, and after another year, moved on to a new partner. We were already emotionally involved at that point, but were not yet dating.

My ex is struggling right now with the same physiological symptoms I have, the insomnia, the loss of appetite, the agony of living in my own skin. But she said the pain she is feeling is about "punishing myself." I asked her to stop doing that, as I love her, and I am not angry with her for leaving me. (I do see that the relationship had become very destructive for me and I needed for it to end). She replied "This is the best way I know to get through these things, by engaging in self-loathing. After I do this, I will have other options." It sounded like a penance ritual, and I think it has something to do with the fact that my ex was raised in a traditional Catholic environment. It was clear that this self-flagellation ritual was an inner relationship between her and her inner priest, and had nothing to do with empathizing with me as a separate person she hurt. She has assigned herself x number of strokes of the lash, with the confidence that will purify her and she can go on to the "next option."

(I didn't miss the reference to her extensive experience in "getting through these things." That's all our ending is to her now, another one of these things that she goes through periodically).

I asked her what she thought she would feel if she weren't immersed in self-punishment, and she didn't know, she thought she might feel "devastated." This turned out to be related to the fact that I plan to end all contact with her soon, not with the loss of our romantic relationship. She has been very dependent on me for emotional support and does not yet have anyone else lined up to take over, at least as far as I know.

It seems like she cannot ever really get all the way into a relationship, but she also can't ever face the grief of the ending, so she skips that part. I could say that she never really gets in or gets out, but in her case, when she "walks away" the person left behind becomes nothing more than a statistic.

[JRT]

... .by engaging in self-loathing. After I do this, I will have other options." It sounded like a penance ritual, and I think it has something to do with the fact that my ex was raised in a traditional Catholic environment. It was clear that this self-flagellation ritual was an inner relationship between her and her inner priest, and had nothing to do with empathizing with me as a separate person she hurt. She has assigned herself x number of strokes of the lash, with the confidence that will purify her and she can go on to the "next option."

Achaya

Thanks for your post... .sorry to know that you are going through this.

As a practicing Catholic, I noticed your remark regarding self-loathing, penance, self-flagellation and purification. I recall watching 'The Divinci Code' and seeing a character in the movie do something similar to what you describe and thinking to myself, "Oh Geez, are people going to think that this is what we do now?" I assure you: penance according to Catholicism has little to do with what you describe. I candidly believe that those behaviors are more related to BPD than they are faith.

[Achaya]

JRT, thanks for your response. To clarify, I am a person of faith also, and although not Catholic, have a strong affinity for that path. I did not mean to convey that I think that the Sacrament of Reconciliation or any other Catholic rituals are intended to function in the self-destructive way my ex uses them.

My ex was raised in Eastern Europe in a traditionally Catholic country. When she was a young child there was a terrible accident that took her parents. She doesn't recall any healthy grieving over the loss; there was no one available to support her. What she got instead was intensification of church attendance and comments about how her parents had "gone to Heaven to be with Jesus," without any further comfort or explanation of what death really is. This is her model for how to grieve.

Beyond this, there is the whole question about whether she is still trying to master her grief by inflicting similar losses on her romantic partners, then "walking away," leaving the grief inside of them.

[JRT]

No worries at all... .sorry that she had to go through that. This really amplifies how critical childhood is and renews my commitment to doing the right things as a father.

Sorry to highjack the thread.

[dagwoodbowser]

I am 2 weeks post BU and still have some contact with my ex while we settle business and get through a few final conversations.

Achaya so sorry to hear about all this. You didnt mention too much about your feeling or your emotions. After first break up I was in a dream state of shock and because of my co-dependency was more concerned about her well being than my own. You're in a tough spot. Stay, support and eventual discard once she's strong enough or walk away in total FOG maybe believing you could have done things differently? There are some great articles here on fear, obligation and guilt.

Good luck... .

[DyingLove]

Achaya,  you said My ex warned me at the start of our relationship that she drives her partners crazy.

Well my ex said something similar... .that she has a habit of pushing people away from her.  Similar right?  Amazing how BPD is like a "breed" comparable to a type of dog for example. (and I don't mean they are dogs).  But German Shepherd have their traits as do Rottweilers.  Each one has a personality that makes it different from others, but the breed has its similarities.

[Achaya]

It's the similarities of this withdraw and discard pattern in the relationships discussed on this site that helped me see the problem is related to my ex's BPD. I knew about her diagnosis and that it affected her stress tolerance and her mood, but I didn't know that it had the off/on relationship pattern with it. Even if I had known that, I would have gotten involved with her anyway, because she kept telling me why it would be different with me, and I so wanted to believe that!

I am having a really rough time this week. I reached out to her on Sunday and met with her. No discussion of recycling---she talks about us as a past relationship. I also know I need to get through this and get away from her.

I think my main problem is that I keep trying to use this rejection as evidence for my unlovability. When I see all the evidence on this site that the pattern affects so many people of differing ages, genders, etc. I know that it really has nothing to do with me, and nothing even to do with my ex-partner's true character. Yet, I don't have a history of relationships in which someone I admired and was very attracted to felt the same way about me, let alone a history of relationships in which I was mutually in love with someone. Sometimes I read posts here that were obviously written by a person with good self esteem and an accurate sense of what is normal. They say they knew something was wrong with their ex when the off/on cycling started, because love doesn't just go away like that. For me, because of my lovability issue, when my ex would withdraw I was shocked and devastated, but sudden, traumatic rejection has been normal in my past relationships. I was shocked only because she had lulled me into believing she "really" loved me. When she was first courting me, I was very wary, and I told her I expected her to do everything she has done in the past few weeks. She was really good at talking me out of my fears, but I was the one who wanted to believe them so much it was more important than listening to the wisdom of my intuition.

I have been wondering today, is there anything she could say about how she felt or feels about me that would make me feel better about myself right now. I don't know what it would be. She told me Sunday that I don't know "what a gift" my love is, or "how important I am." What she actually did was discard me at the curb like yesterday's party garbage. It's really hard right now to see myself as anything else.

[DyingLove]

It's the similarities of this withdraw and discard pattern in the relationships discussed on this site that helped me see the problem is related to my ex's BPD. I knew about her diagnosis and that it affected her stress tolerance and her mood, but I didn't know that it had the off/on relationship pattern with it. Even if I had known that, I would have gotten involved with her anyway, because she kept telling me why it would be different with me, and I so wanted to believe that!

I am having a really rough time this week. I reached out to her on Sunday and met with her. No discussion of recycling---she talks about us as a past relationship. I also know I need to get through this and get away from her.

I think my main problem is that I keep trying to use this rejection as evidence for my unlovability. When I see all the evidence on this site that the pattern affects so many people of differing ages, genders, etc. I know that it really has nothing to do with me, and nothing even to do with my ex-partner's true character. Yet, I don't have a history of relationships in which someone I admired and was very attracted to felt the same way about me, let alone a history of relationships in which I was mutually in love with someone. Sometimes I read posts here that were obviously written by a person with good self esteem and an accurate sense of what is normal. They say they knew something was wrong with their ex when the off/on cycling started, because love doesn't just go away like that. For me, because of my lovability issue, when my ex would withdraw I was shocked and devastated, but sudden, traumatic rejection has been normal in my past relationships. I was shocked only because she had lulled me into believing she "really" loved me. When she was first courting me, I was very wary, and I told her I expected her to do everything she has done in the past few weeks. She was really good at talking me out of my fears, but I was the one who wanted to believe them so much it was more important than listening to the wisdom of my intuition.

I have been wondering today, is there anything she could say about how she felt or feels about me that would make me feel better about myself right now. I don't know what it would be. She told me Sunday that I don't know "what a gift" my love is, or "how important I am." What she actually did was discard me at the curb like yesterday's party garbage. It's really hard right now to see myself as anything else.

So So Sorry.  I know how you are feeling right now.  This pain just isn't like a finger prick, it's a whole body and mind and heart pain, and if there is one inkling of anxiety with it then it explodes off the charts!  I had gotten anxious in the middle of the rollercoaster ride of death!  I think it was Yesterday or Sunday.  I had the most intense bewilderment and sadness that I've ever experienced.  I hate it. I keep seeing her in my minds eye walking left to right about 10 feet in front of me... .looking all sexy and pretty but her expression is dead and cold.  It's almost like I have a feeling of lust that keeps sucking me in deeper and deeper.  I ask myself often, if there is anything that would change if I went back to her.  My sad answer is no... .it would probably be as painful and belittling (her favorite word) as ever.  So I sit tight and wait for time to pass and hopefully I don't get triggered by anything. Pheew.   Sorry for ranting... .but it's all I got.

[cosmonaut]

This is a very interesting post, Achaya.  It sounds like your ex has quite a bit of self awareness, and I think it can help all of us to better understand what might be happening during and after these relationships.

I am relatively certain that my ex mourned the loss of prior relationships in her own sort of way.  She had pictures and mementos of each of them (she is not a promiscuous borderline - there's really only been a few) stored safely away.  I know for a fact that she treasured these things.  It wasn't something that I made a big deal about, even as I admit it made me a little bit jealous (my issue).  Just the way that she would speak of them sometimes, I could tell that she was in some way still attached.  That they still mattered to her somehow.  Even her horribly abusive ex husband.  She hated him, and yet there were a few times she spoke with a certain tenderness about him and the earlier, happier times in their relationship.  I suspect that pwBPD experience the complexities of grief that we do, but perhaps in a very different way than we do.  They tend to try and shut down so much of the pain.  They work so hard to remove themselves from it.  To wall it off.  I suspect that may be what you are seeing with your ex.  This is affecting her deeply, but she's shutting it off.  She even says she'd be "devastated" if she allowed herself to be.

The other thing to remember is that you are indeed loveable.  It is so important for us to remember this.  We are loveable.  If we weren't loveable, the disorder would have never been triggered at all.  It was the fact that we are loveable and we were loved that set this chain of events into motion.  You are very loveable, Achaya.  We all are.   

Anyway, this is a very interesting post.  Thanks for sharing it.

[apollotech]

Achaya,

Please don't get emersed in the I was/am not good enough mode of thinking. The push/pull cycles that you spoke of are very typical of a pwBPD. When y'all were too close your partner felt engulfed and pushed. When y'all were too distant your partner felt abandoned and pulled. That is BPD driving the bus. It had absolutely nothing to do with you. Your partner will display that same behavior with anyone. In essence, because you experienced this behavior with your partner, it proves that yoir partner actually did care deeply for you (Yes, I realize that that sounds crazy, but it is true!).

Her self-suffering is just another maladapted coping mechanism. It's maladaptiveness is borne out in the fact that it destroys rather than preserves. Once you stay out of the relationship for a bit you'll begin to see things more clearly; you're just not there yet. As hard as it is to understand or possibly accept, BPD was running the relationship. Unfortunately, your partner had/has little to no control over the disorder. Again, it was never about you.

[Achaya]

I met with my ex-partner for what I believe to be the last time today. Of course it was very painful but I knew what I needed to ask her about and to say this time, thanks to the dialogues on these boards. Here is some of what went on in our conversation---maybe it will be helpful to someone else.

She asked me if there was anything she could do to alleviate my pain.

I told her the only thing that would help would be for her to tell me that she is still in love with me.

She didn't answer, she just looked at me with a rueful smile and a dead look in her eyes.

I felt the knife in my heart but was ready for her answer. I was surprised to feel a bit of relief when the last threads of hope broke.

I asked her for her understanding of what happened---why she had started out feeling one thing and now feels nothing for me. She named some problems in our relationship that are very real and significant, and I told her that I can understand why she would leave me for those reasons.

I also told her that I thought there was more to the story, however. I told her I had been rereading old letters I wrote to her during the distancing periods, and that this had been going on for a long time, maybe since the beginning of our relationship.

She said she has done this in every relationship she has ever been in, and that she doesn't know why she withdraws. She said "I am just (profanity)-ed up, let's leave it at that!"

I told her that is her choice at this point, whether to work on this issue, but that I thought it could be worked with, and when we were together, I wanted to work on the off/on pattern. I told her that I thought I had some understanding of it already, because it is my way to approach problems by trying to understand them. I said I know that this isn't her way, and she responded emphatically, "No it isn't!"

We each expressed concern for each other and talked about boundaries around contact, especially in the event that one of us would be really in crisis and in need of help. My ex repeated her desire for me to call her whenever I need "anything." I told her what I couldn't have any contact with her, because it is so painful, and because I don't want to work on "getting over" her. She appeared to accept this boundary, and I believe that she will respect it.

I still hurt just as much as I have been, but my mind is at peace right now.

I know that my ex is in fact just as special as I thought she was all along.

I don't know what all she "really" felt for me, but we were deeply, mutually involved in a complex relationship.

I learned that I can't make somebody join me in working on a problem if that person isn't geared up for that.

I see that I am in pain right now because I am capable of forming a stable attachment to someone, and I am glad of that!

I am very grateful to all of you on this board who have posted your experience and insights, and especially to everyone who has responded to my posts. Because of you I went into this last conversation knowing what I needed to know and feeling strong enough to hear the truth. And I do indeed feel a lot freer than I did yesterday, although no less sad.

[JRT]

Man, that was tough. It took a lot of courage for you to meet her and then to hear all of that.

Hang in there brother!

[dagwoodbowser]

I met with my ex-partner for what I believe to be the last time today.

The last time I saw my X was Valentines Day. The plan was for a very romantic evening. After dinner, she insisted on going to go Buy shoes for herself instead of what was planned. It showed me right there and then that I had no real Value or Significance to her. I didnt sleep well, but I knew in my heart it was over. I left in the morning and PROMISED Myself I would never allow someone to treat me like this again, especially her. It was the last time I saw her. I am still in some pain, but nothing like those first 10 days. Stick to the boards, write letters here that you would otherwise be sending to her... .just verbalize and text it all out here. No Contact is a personal choice. I am almost at 60 N/C well over 80 something since I last saw her. I really am doing so much better.

That final realization that someone else does not care, love or value you as you do I know is very pain full.