My wife just found out that I think she has BPD

[Fian]

About a week ago I realized that my wife had BPD.  I read a book on it and that changed how I behaved towards my wife.  She noticed the change and appreciated the new me.  I did tell her that I thought that she was the issue, but that by changing myself, I could still make things better.  That part didn't sink in as she just thought I was reading a book on how to be a better husband.

I intentionally avoided telling her that I thought she had BPD.  She is a higher functioning BPD and they normally reject the diagnosis, and it isn't like there is a simple solution if you accept the diagnosis.  On the other hand the book said there can be some benefit to knowing, so it isn't an absolute that you shouldn't tell them.  So I hedged my bet.  I didn't tell her, but I also didn't hide the book.  I knew that she would probably discover it in a very short period of time.  She actively decided to search for it, since she saw a change in me, and wanted to read the book herself, thinking it was a marriage counseling book.

Imagine her surprise when she discovered it was a book on BPD!  She confronted me on it, and I was rather noncommital in response and said she could read the book to make her own determination.  She left saying she was "disappointed."  I prayed about it and decided that I should be more direct in the discussion so I went to her, admitted that I thought she did have BPD, and wanted to know if she wanted to discuss it.

There was some good discussion that we had on it, but there were also a lot of poor discussion as well.  She was offended and at times rejected the diagnosis, but at other times admitted that something might be wrong.  She wanted to know what were the symptoms of the disorder, and there I struggled to explain it to her.  When we talked about poor self image, she found that offensive, and rejected that it describes her.  At times she lashed out at me and said that she thought I had narcissism disorder.  I agreed that just because she may have BPD, that doesn't mean that I am not doing things wrong, and may also have psychological problems as well (truth be told, I don't think I have Narcissism, but some of the traits could be applied to me).  At one point she started talking about how I am such a bad person, and I asked her what she thought I was feeling right now.  BPD have low empathy so they don't realize how harmful their words are.  So at times I try and get her to think about how I am feeling.  It fails, of course, but I occasionally try anyway.

Unfortunately, the conversation did not end well.  She was really offended by me asking if she had a low self image.  So here is how the conversation ended:

Her - "I don't want to talk with you right now.  Go away."

Me - "That wasn't nice."

Her - "I don't care."

When I went to bed later, I did notice she was looking at the book.  So I think she is curious about BPD.

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[MaroonLiquid]

Be careful.  About a month after my wife's major dysregulation 11 months ago, I went over to her house and spent the afternoon with her.  I had my laptop with me doing some homework for some online classes I was taking.  She got upset and asked me to leave.  I accidentally left without my laptop and she went through it and saw this website.  To say she went on a smear campaign was an understatement and then lied to everyone in her family that I was having an affair.  This is another reason why I don't think she has given it back.  Be on guard that she may try and use this against you.  My wife is extremely high-functioning so I can relate to what you are going through.

[Fian]

My wife is a Christian and takes her faith seriously.  It mitigates a lot of the cruel things that she could do.  To be honest, she is very worried about people hearing about our relationship problems, so it is unlikely that she would instigate a smear campaign.  If she did, it might be along the lines of me having narcissism disorder.  To be honest - I don't really care.  If she wants me to go see a psychologist to get diagnosed (unlikely), I would go, so long as she goes to get diagnosed on whether she has BPD.

[Surg_Bear]

This past weekend, my wife and I had yet another relationship threatening discussion.

She told me, in no uncertain terms that my referring to her as Borderline was the single most hurtful thing I have ever done to her.  Furthermore, she forbade me using the term in reference to her, in any way. I am not to discuss my borderline, or even "crazy" wife to any of my friends or colleagues.  Doing so would represent an unforgivable betrayal of our marriage trust, and would be grounds for separation.  She stated that she will not tolerate me discussing borderline in marriage therapy, and hasn't decided how she feels about me discussing her psychological problems with my own Psychiatrist / Psychoanalyst.

She is willing to accept that she has raged, and dissociates. She understands that my pathology often causes us to fall into enactments, and that if I worked harder with my own therapist, I would not be so dysregulated all of the time. Perhaps if I could find a real therapist who understands mentalization, I might be able to see beyond my own personality disorder to actually be well enough to be attuned to her needs and emotions once in a while, instead of being continually wrapped up in self-absorbed turmoil of my pathetic mid-life crisis.

I was floored, to say the least. I did not take the bait, though. She even upped the ante by inserting a never before used term of condescension- she actually referred to me as "sweetie."

"You know, Sweetie, if you actually did real work with your Psychiatrist, instead of sitting around plotting out how to get legal advice to protect your assets in the event of deciding to pursue divorce; you might actually resemble a husband who actually cares about his wife- instead of plastering her with sadistic and hurtful borderline labels."

Sweetie.

I have never been regarded in such a sweet and loving way.

Pretty soon, I think I may be leaving this sub-forum because I'll either join in the "undecided" or even the "separating from BPD lover" forums.

Can't wait to hear what she says when she hijacks the marriage therapy appointment tonight- in order to protect her professional reputation (she has a doctorate in Clinical Psychology) from slanderous accusations by her know-nothing surgeon husband.

My patience is wearing shockingly thin... .

Surg_Bear

[Fian]

Married to a psychologist with BPD?  That has to be rough.  It sounds like she is trying to set her limits.  Not sure if you want another opinion, but maybe this would help:

"Furthermore, she forbade me using the term in reference to her, in any way. "

I would personally agree to this.  Talk about the behaviors, not the the disorder.  And since she is a psychologist, it is probably best to avoid psychology terms like splitting.

"I am not to discuss my borderline, or even "crazy" wife to any of my friends or colleagues.  "

I would agree to not discuss with mutual friends, but if you have a friend that is separate from your common circle, then  I might not agree to that if I thought I needed a confidant.

"She stated that she will not tolerate me discussing borderline in marriage therapy"

I would not agree to this, although focus on behavior, not labels is still best.

", and hasn't decided how she feels about me discussing her psychological problems with my own Psychiatrist / Psychoanalyst."

I would not agree to this.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife is a Christian and takes her faith seriously.  It mitigates a lot of the cruel things that she could do.  To be honest, she is very worried about people hearing about our relationship problems, so it is unlikely that she would instigate a smear campaign.  If she did, it might be along the lines of me having narcissism disorder.  To be honest - I don't really care.  If she wants me to go see a psychologist to get diagnosed (unlikely), I would go, so long as she goes to get diagnosed on whether she has BPD.

My wife and I are Christian also and were the associate pastors at our church when everything blew up 11 months ago.  Not saying she will, but it is part of the disorder to keep everyone from hearing your truth. 

[ydrys017]

My wife is a Christian and takes her faith seriously.  It mitigates a lot of the cruel things that she could do.  To be honest, she is very worried about people hearing about our relationship problems, so it is unlikely that she would instigate a smear campaign... .

In my experience, (my uBPDw and I are both Christians who are active in our Church), this logic could backfire in the form of an 'advocacy campaign' where your spouse relays how 'bad' you are to other Church members to either 'get her story out first' or to recruit Church support in a way to prevent her from looking bad or owning partial responsibility.  Ask me how I know... . 

Surg_Bear,

Thanks for answering a curiosity question for me, ie; "could a psychologist spouse have BPD?"  I guess the answer is 'Yes'!  This disorder knows no social, economical or intellectual boundaries... .

[Stalwart]

Hey Surg:

In my case when my wife was actually diagnosed it was a real definition to her. She could now put some of the scattered pieces of her past into some kind or assemblance of order. It was her inclination to get the horn and start telling the world.

Seldom I actually interfene in my wife's chosen actions. I did in this though and told her that may not be wise because there are so many people out there that have stigmas and no understanding of BPD. It didn't take long for it come back and slap her in the face. she's more careful now and reasons out the needs to tell a person prior to mentioning it.

For my part it has always been my stance that this disorder belongs to my wife and it's her accountability to tell who she thinks she needs to. It's not my place. Honestly, I really believe that's as simple as being a matter of respect for her. Nothing to do with faiths or religions, just decency for another person.

One thing for certain since her profession is in the mental health field it really could damage her and bottom-line is that she actually isn't diagnosed even - so telling the world is speculative. she has a real concern about that professionally and out in the public. It's apparent she also has a personal concern with it but that's a whole different story that takes place inside the walls of your shared life together.

It really sounds like you're in a real low place and struggling desperately at a crossroad and I so feel for the position you're in. I think most of us have found ourselve's standing right there beside you.

Two questions:

Can you see hope and can you feel want in carrying on with your relationship and what might those things be if any?

What motivation or reason would you have to share such personal information with others and put it out there that your wife speculatively has BPD? what I mean by that is that we all have motivations behind our actions. How could that benefit anything or anyone?

[tortuga]

The approach I took with my daughter, was that I relied on the medical diagnosis. Her suicide attempt put her in the mental hospital, and the doctor diagnosed her. She was strongly resisting accepting it, at first. But she had already had a couple of friends of hers tell her that they thought she had BPD. I thought that was hogwash until the doctor said it.  I could see that she was struggling with the shame of being labelled.  I had tried to talk her into seeking help years ago, and she struggled with shame. Of course, she's afraid nobody will take her seriously if she's labelled "crazy".  Their feelings would never again be validated. Fate worse than death. Literally.

But after the diagnosis, and the suicide attempts, and failing out of college, (and widespread rejection by all of her friends), she was scared enough to accept that she needed help. 

I wanted to cushion the shame, so I put it like this:

The APA (who defines psychological disorders and such), were pushing to change the name of this disorder from "Borderline Personality Disorder" to "Emotional Dysregulation Disorder". (in fact, this is what her psychologist at the mental hospital suggested).  BPD has a lot of stigma attached to the name, because "personality disorder" lumps them in together with Narcissists and Antisocials. Plus, BPD does not really describe the disorder the same way EDD does.  She really liked the sound of that.

(unfortunately, "EDD" did not make it into the DSM V).

I also gently told her that it didn't mean she was a bad person, that her brain had learned some bad habits in coping with these intense emotions and feelings. These habits were learned skills, and could be un-learned, and replaced with new, more constructive habits.  And that the way for her to help make her life to be not so difficult, would be to go and learn some better skills to help to cope. (better that she has not yet learned that she can "get by" in life, by forcing others to deal with her poor coping skills).  She understood the concept.  She agreed. 

I further softened the "blow" by explaining to her that the part of the "disorder" had some bad effects: (feelings of guilt, shame, etc were so intense that they shut the "reasonable" part of the brain down) - but also has some good effects: (feelings of joy, love, happiness, are also more intense).  I tried to point out that these good effects were sort of a "gift".  That they can help her to learn to be more empathetic towards others.  To love and care more deeply. That she could look at it as sort of a "superpower". I know her pretty well, so this approach worked with her.  And she agreed to go into treatment.

Granted. . . after her first week there, she was furious.  She wanted to leave, and go live on her own - immediately, and demanded that we go pick her up.  We refused. She was always free to leave the treatment center.  But she ultimately chose to stay, and buy into the idea that she needed to at least give the DBT therapy a chance.  (even if she didn't buy-in to all the addiction-recovery stuff they are peddling).

From what I've read, if you can get a BPD-sufferer to accept treatment, they at least have a chance. But apparently, they need to stick with it for about 4-5 years. Even if they have immediate progress. It takes years to learn the "bad" emotional coping skills, it takes years to un-learn them.

This is in sharp contrast to my uBPDw; who will rationalize and magical-think her way out of accepting that she has a problem and needs help.  I long ago, lost any hope that she will change.  Now; I *WILL* say, that taking antidepressants (Lexapro) has worked wonders for her.  But being partnered with her is still absolutely miserable.

I can imagine the array of rationalization weaponry available to a pwBPD who is a trained Psychologist. This is an emotional defense mechanism against feeling the shame and stigma of BPD. It's very difficult to accept the basic idea that anything "bad" is their fault. Simply put, in neurophysiological terms: that "feeling" will shut-down their prefrontal cortex, which is the seat of rational thought and planning and executive function. She'll immediately fall back on her training to provide her with a myriad of reasons why a BPD diagnosis makes no sense. (or why, at the very least, it will be impossible for her to ADMIT fault). She will have all the language, and book-learning, and professional arrogance, to back up the idea that defends her ego from feeling that shame.

One would think that someone who admits to "dissociating" and has ANY inkling of basic psychology, would realize that they have a serious, serious problem. But they'll explain it away as something else - that directs BLAME elsewhere.

For my part it has always been my stance that this disorder belongs to my wife and it's her accountability to tell who she thinks she needs to. It's not my place. Honestly, I really believe that's as simple as being a matter of respect for her. Nothing to do with faiths or religions, just decency for another person.

I tried so hard, for so long, praying, thinking, wishing, that I could "fix" my uBPDw.  But ultimately, I realized exactly what you're saying:  At the end of the day, it is HER problem, and HER responsibility. 

Some of the tropes they trot out for addiction-recovery apply here.  Often, they will not get to the "acceptance" stage, of grief; of the LOSS they feel, until they have hit what is referred to as "rock bottom".  Until they realize that what they've been doing all along, is not working out for them.  They have to realize that there is a loss.  They have to FEEL the loss, and ACT on that feeling, in a constructive manner.

If their enabling partner, (in this case, ME), stays with them, and allows them to keep a "status quo" - that is acceptable (even if it's not ideal), then they're not going to get to that point, where they finally accept that they need to change.  And so - things will continue the way they've always continued.   Why learn the DIFFICULT way to cope with shame, when somebody else helps you with the easy way?

One thing for certain since her profession is in the mental health field it really could damage her and bottom-line is that she actually isn't diagnosed even - so telling the world is speculative. she has a real concern about that professionally and out in the public. It's apparent she also has a personal concern with it but that's a whole different story that takes place inside the walls of your shared life together.

I don't disagree, but the idea that she will take a "professional hit" is kind of. . . "black and white thinking".  It's not necessarily true.  There are actually many professionals in this field who have their own "issues".  There's a theory that high-functioning neurotic and disordered people begin to ask questions about their own behaviors, and they often gravitate to this field, in order to answer those questions.  My own therapist has a history of such issues.

Then there's this lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt_h0Ro26Lw

There will also be the very real fear of "losing the upper-hand" in the relationship, and thus the comforting control they feel they have. If they accept that "they're the crazy one" - then they lose that feeling of having the upper hand.

This past weekend, my wife and I had yet another relationship threatening discussion.

She told me, in no uncertain terms that my referring to her as Borderline was the single most hurtful thing I have ever done to her. 

It is just a label.  It may be, that she may accept a more gentle label like "Emotional Dysregulation Disorder".  Unfortunately, that's a fantasy, at this point, because most of the legacy material on this disorder (including support groups, web sites, treatment centers) - refer to it as "Borderline Personality Disorder".

Furthermore, she forbade me using the term in reference to her, in any way. I am not to discuss my borderline, or even "crazy" wife to any of my friends or colleagues.  Doing so would represent an unforgivable betrayal of our marriage trust, and would be grounds for separation.

One would think that if someone reasonable, was "accused" of being BPD, and wanted to humor their accuser, would go and get "officially tested" - if for no other reason, than to settle the matter. 

She will evade, and threaten, and manipulate.  Rather than try to prove you empirically "wrong" - in this case.  Because she fears, at her core, that it's true, and she will be found out.

and hasn't decided how she feels about me discussing her psychological problems with my own Psychiatrist / Psychoanalyst.

That's none of her G-d d--ned business. Frankly. Your therapist is none of her business, and is under no obligation to discuss YOUR personal treatment with her.  This is the single most valuable thing I get out of my therapy!

She understands that my pathology often causes us to fall into enactments, and that if I worked harder with my own therapist, I would not be so dysregulated all of the time. Perhaps if I could find a real therapist who understands mentalization, I might be able to see beyond my own personality disorder to actually be well enough to be attuned to her needs and emotions once in a while, instead of being continually wrapped up in self-absorbed turmoil of my pathetic mid-life crisis.

easy-peasy.  Go to a therapist yourself, and address your problems.

Of course, she will not like the changes she sees in you as you progress. Because you will learn communication skills and techniques which de-fuse her methods of control.  You will learn to establish healthy boundaries.  Which pwBPD hate. 

She even upped the ante by inserting a never before used term of condescension- she actually referred to me as "sweetie."

Yep.  She doesn't realize you see through her.

Can't wait to hear what she says when she hijacks the marriage therapy appointment tonight- in order to protect her professional reputation (she has a doctorate in Clinical Psychology) from slanderous accusations by her know-nothing surgeon husband.

Okay - well, in my experience with my uBPDw. . . it's going to be an exercise in futility.  Joint counseling with a pwBPD, is an opportunity for pwBPD to manipulate the therapist into an alliance against the non.  Waste of time and money.

My uBPDw did manipulate my T; but after the truth finally came out, she refused to come to Joint with this T, and insisted on another. I continued seeing my T individually.  We have since gone to Joint with uBPDw's T, and she's not a very good therapist - she basically talks about herself for an hour.  But she did listen enough to buy into uBPDw's BS.  I still go from time to time, to humor her. Though, my uBPDw's T does not agree with uBPDw that I have NPD (or "Passive-Aggressive". Neither does my T.

I would avoid engaging in Joint therapy with your uBPDw.

If you can't get her to accept your unprofessional diagnosis, then you really can't force her.  You can only control YOUR reaction to what other people do. You can't control what other people think or feel.   

[itgirl]

Thanks Tortuga!  I really enjoyed reading that!   

[babyducks]

as several posters have mentioned there is a stigma attached to the label Borderline.  where I happen to live it is a very strong stigma.   and it is deeply entrenched within the mental health community.   I had one social worker tell me "we don't bother with borderlines, they are untreatable and incurable, they are just a pain in the @ss".

my partner knows all about borderline personality disorder and reacts with utter vehemence when the topic accidently comes up, so I don't bring it up.

when I was first learning about the topic I was frankly appalled by some of the language and postings I found regarding pwBPD.   Not so much on this website, thankfully.

I followed the advice given to me to concentrate on the behaviors and not the labels.  there is a lot of overlap between several disorders.   I was told to focus on understanding her behaviors and understanding my reactions and that has been helpful to me.   

I would be concerned that if I did use the label BPD with my partner she would off load the shame by projecting it on me.   

I am wondering Fian if you didn't get a hugely negative reaction because unlike Surg_Bear's wife, yours wasn't familiar with the term.   

For Surg_Bear, his wife had to do something with the overwhelming roiling negative emotions so she turned around and dumped them on him.  Very unpleasant but completely normal for a pwBPD.

If it had been my partner who found a book about BPD she would had dsyregulated into depression and fear for days.   There would have been a lot of crying and a lot of how could be so mean to me type conversations.

One thing I can guarantee would NOT have happened, would be 'let's sit down and talk about this logically until we reach compromise and a path forward.      That's not how this illness works.   Any time something major happens in our relationship I know I will be dealing with emotional fallout for a while until I validate enough that, like Tortuga said, the prefrontal cortex comes back.

Stalwart said some great things in your other thread.   About kid gloves and the difference between your reality and her reality.   I think perhaps there is a tendency, once we have an Eureka moment to want to share that with our SO.  That's a uniquely personal decision but it does need to be done with care, concern and kindness.  As we say here, you can't unring that bell and your wife will remember your words for years to come.

'ducks

[Fian]

To give an update on my situation.  My wife decided that she wants to "start over" and in my interpretation pretend that she never found the book.  That is fine by me, as I agree, labeling a person with a mental illness doesn't accomplish much.  My hope is that now that she is aware that something is potentially wrong, she may decide she wants to seek out help when she notices that things don't seem right.

She has no idea of what BPD is, so I agree that might be part of the reason why her response has been so muted.  Believe me, I am grateful that her response was not more severe.

"Stalwart said some great things in your other thread.   About kid gloves and the difference between your reality and her reality.   I think perhaps there is a tendency, once we have an Eureka moment to want to share that with our SO.  That's a uniquely personal decision but it does need to be done with care, concern and kindness.  As we say here, you can't unring that bell and your wife will remember your words for years to come."

Yes, I am trying to decide how much to share with her, and I am trying to err on the side on sharing less.  One of the reasons why I didn't tell her that I thought she had BPD was because I thought her knowing it was going to be of minimal value, especially since I don't know what to say and not say.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My wife is a Christian and takes her faith seriously.  It mitigates a lot of the cruel things that she could do.  To be honest, she is very worried about people hearing about our relationship problems, so it is unlikely that she would instigate a smear campaign.  If she did, it might be along the lines of me having narcissism disorder.  To be honest - I don't really care.  If she wants me to go see a psychologist to get diagnosed (unlikely), I would go, so long as she goes to get diagnosed on whether she has BPD.

My uBPDw is the same... .and I can't imagine how much worse my life would have been if she weren't... .

I've done a few dumb things before learning about BPD, but it doesn't compare to her daily behavior, so she always tries to keep things between us.

Even when I suggest she find a girl-friend to vent to, the thought of involving others stresses her out so I'm the only lucky one who gets to hear the daily insights... .

[Stalwart]

Fian in my experience it is so much more important that my wife came to that conclusion of her problem and diagnosis rather than “I’m going to tell my wife she has BPD.” One good thing and it’s a biggie is that you’ve said she really doesn’t seem to have a knowledge of what that is. So she has no real awareness of the huge stigmas attached to it. Good place to leave that as well if you want to her to gain recognition and seek help. There really is a necessity to play it down and its significance as being a MENTAL illness. I never use the word mental, illness or disorder. I use the word ‘challenge’ or ‘problem’ if I ever have to absolutely put a label to it at all in a conversation with my wife.

I can only tell you how I approached recognition with my wife and you take it as you will. I don’t want to get into it here but someone else approached me through PMs about this. I told her much the same – she did it with her boyfriend and she was really successful. He accepted it and sought out therapy right away. I’ll copy you that and PM it to you because it’s a bit personal and I don’t throwing everything out here. Modesty thing I guess. I’m also going to copy this to another thread because someone else is in the same position of trying to get awareness.

Sit back it’s going to take a bit.

I’m not going into the dark past and particulars that led to my wife’s real downfalls and dysregulations. It’s enough to know that she was at rock bottom and beaten up. She was so dysregulated and saying things that were so dysfunctional for the situation at hand that the light bulb came on. It’s BPD. I’d read about it before but bypassed it because she seemingly didn’t really fit, but from her past she was good at hiding somethings. Dysregulation has a way of screaming those things in your face – but you already know that. So I already knew what the problem was but she was undiagnosed and unaware of the disorder even.

I took a really involved test for BPD that spoke to all the symptoms of it. I also took another one that was more basic and listed the nine criteria – object to meet five of the nine for a possibility of this illness.

For each symptom I developed a question to ask her from her past and if she ever experienced something in her life that made her feel that way. It’s a bit of trick to ensure you word the questions with no triggers.

One really, really big thing is to first set the criteria of the conversation and it is limited to her life before she met me and has absolutely nothing to do with our relationship at all! Made it clear I just wanted to know about how she grew up and some of her other relationships and experiences. REALLY IMPORTANT.

I had to wait for the right moment when she was really calm and ensure I created and maintained that atmosphere where I was worried about how upset she gets sometimes and HOW SHE FEELS. I made it all about her and made sure she knew that.

Then I started into the questions. What was it like when you were in public school? And went on from there. I had about twelve questions all of them I knew if she let go and was truthful and trusting enough to get to that place would answer the full criteria.

We sat together on the couch all afternoon, she talked and I listened. I’d help steer her conversation a bit but never offered opinions, advice or contradicted a statement. I validated to help her feel more comfortable and moved along so she felt listened to.

She totally failed 7 out of nine criteria, if fail is the correct terminology.

Prior to starting this I had taken a write up on BPD and copied it. I then sat down and rewrote it. I took out any harsh or damaging statement and wordsmithed it to be more mild so it wouldn’t trigger her with anything damaging when she read it. It contained all the different elements that constitute the criteria for BPD

When she'd finished talking (answering all the questions if want to look at it that way) I told her that there are so many other people that have felt just the same she has for so many years and that's she not along conversation... ."I'd like you to read this sometime. I gave it to her and she read it right away.

When she finished reading it she was almost in tears (I’ve never seen her cry, I don’t think she can) and said, it’s almost as though they wrote this about me. Of course she threw out the self-harming and suicidal tendencies (she doesn’t have them). That was good though because now in her mind if she did have BPD she must “really be a mild case.” Hey, I’ll take that, true or not it’s a great start and who I am to tell her otherwise. Now it’s a therapist job to manage all that. My job is to manage me in a better way to accommodate the situation now that there’s awareness of what it is.

In following up and talking to her about it afterwards I made it a positive thing and no negatives about the illness. Again I focused and honed right in on how great it would be if she “could get the help so she could some of that past behind her and not feel so hurt about it.” Nothing about me wanting to benefit from it or our marriage. Just about her welfare and my concern for that.

Long story short I had an appointment fast-tracked through a friend where we live because there is only phycologist that diagnosis here and it’s a year wait list. She cancelled two appointments but went to the third one and ended up with her official diagnosis and accepted it. Of course no phycologist is going to go into the real negative things about BPD with her either so it all worked out well.

She started therapy, I started learning how to change myself and today it’s a whole new ballgame.

Having two people working toward the same goal even if it’s from totally different poles is a game changer. I just have to add I’m so, so proud of her. A long way still to go but she keeps going the right direction and that’s all the hope I need.

Just food for thought my friend. I will follow-up and PM you the other person’s conversation though it’s really encouraging. Sorry this was so long to plow through.

[Fian]

Thank you for sending the PM and posting on the thread.  I am not sure if my wife will ask me any more about BPD, but if she does, we can check out the online tests.  It is great to have guidance on this, as BPD is new to me too.  One thing I am unsure on is whether I should encourage her to go to therapy or not.  She is higher functioning.  And it seems like most psychologists are either ill-equipped or unwilling to treat BPD.  The last thing I want is to take her to a psychologist and she gets worse or gets an incorrect diagnosis.  On the other hand, I don't want to discourage her from going either by bad-mouthing treatment.

[Surg_Bear]

So, as a follow-up, I thought I'd share a few more things.

First, my wife's therapist did share with me that he believed she was severely core traumatized and exhibits borderline traits.  The reason this came up was I reached out to him because her work with him has produced HUGE improvements over the years, and I wanted to see if he had a recommendation for a couples therapist who was as skillful in this type of work, as he.  "Borderline traits", in my opinion, is like saying "almost pregnant".  He can't say for sure, because he only has part of the picture- the part she brings to him.

I have no need to use the borderline label as a weapon, and have less need to share with others. Our private dynamic is just that- private.  I understand the idea of patient confidentiality, since I live this 24 hours a day, in my work as a surgeon.  I would never use the term for personal gain, like, "look at me and my troubles, my wife is a crazy borderline. Feel sorry for me , please... .take pity on me... ."  My father used to do a version of that about my mother's depression that I found so repulsive and despicable, I vowed (as a child) that I would never do that to my loved ones- ever.  And I have lived true to that.

I am in firm belief, however, that for there to be any significant research into effective treatment for this terrible disease, it requires sufferers to accept they have it.  We cannot hope for a cure, and an effective end to the troubles of everyone here who reads this forum, if we sit idly and quietly in our own Private Idaho, and allow the stigma to continue to be the source of hot top 10 Hollywood movie fare.  It's like AIDS, in many ways.  In the beginning, there was an anti-AIDS research movement, based on the puritan beliefs about the "cause" of the disease.  There was no funding for real research because of the AIDS stigma, and lots of human beings died waiting for effective treatment.  So, I don't buy the whole, "don't talk about it because of the stigma" argument.  If there is to be research into treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder, it requires some very brave individuals to accept they have the diagnosis, and be randomized into a clinical trial.

Update on our Couples appointment:

She called our therapist beforehand, to express some concerns about what I might say in the appointment.  I do not know what was discussed.

During the appointment, she told him that she was afraid of my anger, and had been a victim of my abuse for many years.

MY ABUSE.

It was like I had been shot in the heart, and was looking at my murderer in the eye as I was bleeding to death.

MY ABUSE.

I used to think that my wife was a highly functioning person with Borderline Personality Disorder.  She does, after all, help people suffering emotional / psychological troubles.  The keen ability to needle into my vulnerabilities to create her much needed conflict at home, she turns to others to help them get out of their emotional troubles. I respect her for this- professionally.  She is VERY good at what she does as a clinical psychologist.  And VERY good at making me suffer- crazy making, gas lighting, you name it- she is a freaking professional.

But this- this is the false accusation switch I have read about in this forum with absolute horror.  How could these disordered people do this, to the only person who truly loves them, and still have a conscience?  I didn't think my wife was capable of this low of BPD behavior.  I was wrong.

The whole reason I felt we needed couples therapy was because I was suffering from the decades of insidious, and constant emotional abuse that was my marriage.  Her emotional abuse was everywhere we turned.  It was the reason for once-a-year sex, and the rages, to be sure.  But it was also the minute-to-minute, constant criticism, belittling, micromanaging, silent treatment, and man-bashing crap I've put up with for 25 years.  She took this opportunity to help us get better as a couple, and turned it into a self-serving exercise in pushing her own agenda and painting me to be the evil problem in our lives.

My anger and abuse has her afraid to even talk to me about things.

If anyone spent 24 hours in my home, as a fly on the wall, it would be clear that everything she told our therapist that I do to her, is actually what she does to me.

I'm heart broken.  I don't want to go back to the couples therapist anymore.  I'm not sure I even want to be married to her anymore. 

To be honest, part of me has been waiting for that one single event that "crosses the line" so that I can somehow justify (in my mind) leaving a person that I love so much.  All of the emotional terror and abuse events, taken singly, are "not that bad"- certainly nothing to give up a marriage about.  Even all added together, I still can't justify leaving the woman I love so dearly.  But this... .this false accusation.  Is this the line crosser?

I don't know what to do... .

Surg_Bear

[Fian]

What I have been thinking lately is that nons have a big advantage in therapy that a person with BPD does not.  We CAN accept that we make mistakes.  We CAN apologize.  We CAN take a critical look at ourself and determine that something needs to change.  The BPD cannot.

Since you are in couples therapy, this is going to be geared to fixing both of you - not just your wife.  You aren't perfect, so there are indeed things that you can work on.  Accept your mistakes where valid and work on making them better.  The Therapist will notice over time.  Even if they initially misdiagnose the problem, I think the longer you go and show willingness to work on your side of the problem, the more the T will realize that the real issue is your wife.

What you also need to be prepared to do is in the MC list the issues of the things that your wife does to you.  Let her deny them.  Give examples.  She will deny those as well.  Over time your T should notice that your wife is denying everything.  You can speed the diagnosis along by telling your T that you belief your wife has BPD, has forbade you from mentioning to the T, so it is better if the T not mention it, but be on the lookout for it.  Your wife thought it was ok to call the T in advance, so turnabout is fair game (I know that BPD don't look at it that way, but it really is).

P.S.  This is coming from someone that has never gone to MC or ever seen a T.  So hopefully my advice is correct.   

[formflier]

 

Hey Surg!  Hang in there man... .married to a high functioning BPD with a PHd! ? 

Wow... .

I see some similarities to my thinking... .to "our" thinking and acting and what seems to be going on with you and your wife.

My wife is trained educator... .very good and what she does.  So... .she has all the ammo in her head... .and can shoot that in good ways... .and in bad ways.  It's kinda like an alcoholic having permanent access to a secret stash of booze... .

I'm a retired Naval officer... .now executive type guy.  I would have loved to be a surgeon... .but passing out due to blood and gore... .kinda got in my way... .!    My hat's off to you. 

Point being... .we're both accomplished guys in our field... .with wives that appear accomplished (and are... .)  but have this mental instability about them.

I used to try to "match wits" with her... .and out think and out talk her.  Most of the time I "won".  In reality I did lots of damage to the r/s.  I kept thinking she would "get it".

Well... .I found this site... .and "submitted" myself to following lessons... .and you know what... .they work. 

Things are much better.

Oh... .the "my abuse" thing.  That would have been big trigger for me... .back in the day. 

She is entitled to her opinions... .so are you.  Best to leave it at that.  Don't try to "prove" yours.

"Forbidding" me from talking about things in MC... .  It's confusing... .and I don't understand... .so... .bring it up in MC... .but let her explain it.

For instance: 

"Sometimes my wife says things that I don't understand... .I hope you (the MC) can guide a discussion today so I can understand what my wife wants me to understand.  My wife mentioned something to me being forbidden to discuss certain things in MC.  I'm hoping you can help her clarify what she is trying to say to me so I can understand."

This will give her a chance to talk... .give the MC a chance to listen for things to validate... .and gets away from exactly what each of you said.

Remember... .she is a pro and will try to get you off your game by focusing on small mistakes if you try to get "precise".  Fess up early that you don't get it... .stay broad in your descriptions... .

Don't think we've chatted before... .so... ."Welcome to bpdfamily... ."  Looking forward to chatting more with you.

FF

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Wow, that's a big hit... .sorry you had to go through that... .

I love formflier's advice for future sessions... .I couldn't tell from your post if the MC is the same person as your w's t.

If it's the same person I think that'll help, that being they'll see through to the truth sooner.

The only other thing I'd offer is to give it a little time, MC can be a scary thing for everyone and her reaction was probably a reaction to losing some of the control that she has in her individual sessions.

[formflier]

 

If it's the same person I think that'll help, that being they'll see through to the truth sooner.

Hey... .I'm interested in if it is same person as well... .

Also... .a slight hijack of the thread... .just to say that usually it is best if they are not same person.  I think best case is if they are in same office... .so the can collaborate... .

The patient is different in MC... .MC treats the r/s and is not supposed to "take sides".

Family T can be a bit different... .in that the goal is have a large family unit function better.  I've seen a Family T guy do some limited individual therapy... .but most session were about how the individual can work better in the family.

I've done them all... .so... .just my opinion.

Thoughts?

FF

[Hmcbart]

Your not alone Surg, my wife did the exact same thing in our first MC session last week. My jaw dropped when I heard it and I wanted to say a few choice things but all I could do was laugh quietly in my mind. I felt the same way.

Fian- I don't know how I would react if my wife found something I'm reading about BPD. I know she would flip out and really go crazy on me. But part of me really wants her to know I read about it. It would bring up the subject so I wouldn't have to.

I still make sure she doesn't see any of it though, I just don't have to emotional strength right now to deal with the inevitable fallout from it. I'm hopeful the new MC will catch on but until then it's more of the same.

[ydrys017]

I would say that even if the MC does 'catch on' to the BPD, they are unlikely to suggest telling your spouse.  As much as we'd like to 'explain' what's happening to our pwBPD, it's just JADE'ing and it almost always fails.  The advice from my T is to not focus so much on the BPD but rather on Self Care (#1), and on recognizing / responding to her behaviors (#2).  In a way, it's actually a bit liberating not having to constantly think about and focus on the BPD, but rather recognizing clues and steering clear of the next dysreg.

[Fian]

It's been a week since she found the book, and we had a good, honest conversation about it.  We talked about what borderline is and the 9 criteria that are used to diagnose it.  A few she agreed would fit her, others were maybes, and others were a definite no.  The most surprising one, though, is on self image.  She does not believe she has a poor self image, and I do believe she was being honest.  She can be a perfectionist, but it doesn't seem to go to the point where she is doing it because she would hate herself if she didn't.  So she doesn't really seem to meet the BPD criteria, and yet I see plenty of BPD behaviors from her.  Now granted, they are on the less severe side.  It makes me wonder if BPD behavior spans more than just BPD.  She is very emotional, but if she doesn't have the self-image problems, maybe it just causes her to be BPD light.

[MaybeSo]

It is nearly impossible to diagnose a loved one.  Even if you have training.  You are way too close to the subject to be impartial.

The area of study and diagnoses of PD's is changing.  The same criteria from the DSM IV was included in the new DSM V, mostly b/c they couldn't agree to the proposed changes before publication.  So, you still need at least 5 out of 9 of the criteria listed in the DSM for a clinical dx.   And, it's suppose to be that these symptoms significantly impact major spheres of life and are pervasive over time

The problem with the current set of criteria... .is that, anyone can and does sometimes display a lot of the criteria under stress.  This is not about seeing or hearing things like someone who is psychotic, it's about common human defenses, primitive perhaps, but behaviors  that we can all engage in under stress at times.   Especially if in a relationship that is struggling. So, when you have a couple who is in bad shape, you have to be careful about labeling people in the midst of the stress of a bad relationship.  Still... .of course, sometimes, someone DOES have this disorder and it is showing up in the relationship.  But, primitive or insecure behavior in a person  doesn't always mean it's BPD.

Abandonment fears?  This is probably almost universal.  Most of us 'manage' our abandonment fears in ways that do not create major, long term chaos in our lives.  PwBPD are freaked out about this all the time and they make a total mess of their interpersonal life because of it.  It's a lot of drama and chaos, over a long period of time b/c of fear of abandonment. It's crazy making

.

A pattern of intense and unstable relationships. This is key.  That is one that isn't typical for most folks.

Impulsivity?  Anyone can have times when they make impulsive,  poor decisions, and it can be age typical at certain stages of life.   But is it pervasive over time? Is it a constant roller coaster of crazy based on total impulsive actions, sleeping with the neighbor, selling the business with no warming, moving on a lark, switching partners with no warning, getting wasted in the middle of a work week with not warning, and that stuff just keeps happening over and over... .

Identity disturbance?  Most college-aged folks struggle with this, and later in life, this is what a mid-life crises is all about. But is it pervasive over time?  By the way, the criteria isn't really about low self image, but UNSTABLE self image. In severe cases there is little or no sense of self there at all... .that is not the same things as having a poor self-image.  Not at all. Most neurotic people (all of us) can struggle with self image or self esteem.  That's not the same thing as never really developing a sense of self.  People with BPD can be like chameleons, they have no stable sense of self, so they often  adopt the persona, looks, values, beliefs,  of those they attach to, and then when it blows up  their entire persona can change depending on who they next attach to.

Recurrent suicidal behavior. Self explanatory. Most people admit to moments of extreme stress where they thought about what it might be like to 'not be here... .that's different than multiple threats and/or multiple trips to the ER.

Affective instability; this is getting more diagnostic... .most healthy folks do not have severe, chaotic disruptive mood swings that others notice unless there is a mental health issue going on or some kind of addiction or other physical health issue ... .or unless maybe they are sleep deprived or something acute is going on but it wouldn't be stable over time... .again... .it's has to be pervasive over time and very disruptive in multiple domains of life, like it keeps them from getting through school, can't keep any friends, can't keep a job.

Feelings of emptiness; self explanatory, anyone could have fleeting moments in times of despair or under great stress, loss, etc. Someone with BPD feels this very painfully and it is connected to having no sense of self.  It always there and they use attachment strategies to alleviate the pain and fear of feeling like they do not exist (without a reflected sense of self through attachment).

Chronic, intense anger:  again, anyone can have the appearance of an anger issue or just have anger management problems and not be PD... .when in a relationship that is having problems it's sometime shard to tell, or in the throws of an addiction, or if they have undiagnosed depression etc.

Paranoid ideation / dissociative symptoms:  anyone can do this if they are under tremendous stress or loss, had a traumatic event etc.  Even with the diagnostic criteria, it's described as transient... .it's not there all the time. It comes and goes.

It's also considered a spectrum disorder.  So... .the stuff that anyone can have in times of stress... .might mean that under stress this is how some folks show up... .with some borderline-ish stuff presenting... .but they are on the low end of the spectrum, and they generally perform well in life.  They may drive their partner nuts, but... . This is not someone who is in and out of hospitals for a serious mental health disorder, or changing partners every six months... .that would be more of a classic clinical borderline presentation.

By the way, lack of empathy is a  criteria for Narcissistic Personality, not Borderline. Doesn't mean pwBPD don't sometimes display a lack of empathy, but it's a diagnostic criteria of NPD.

The problem with couples?  

A woman with some borderline traits often marries a man with some narcisstic traits. She likes that he's a go getter, less emotional and more logical or performance driven, maybe an alpha male, someone that will take the reins and lead or perform.  A system thnker, a planner, an engineer, a captain of industry.  

A man with narcissistic traits often is drawn to a woman with some borderline traits. She has the capacity to be more emotional while he may be more emotionally  shut down or out of touch with his emotional life.  They both 'borrow from each other" what they lack.  So he likes her sexuality and emotionality until he doesn't. she likes his coolness until she doesn't.  She likes his cool calm until she doesn't.

Everything is great for a while until they start to drive each other nuts.  

The man will eventually experience her as being 'crazy' b/c she is over functioning for the couple in the emotional department,  and he can easily stumble across BPD as being the problem, but miss entirely that he has some N traits that help support her moving more into a stressed-out borderline spectrum kind of presentation.  He keeps being dismissive and analytical about her emotional life, which by the way, feels to her like she is with an abusive jerk.  He won't get that at all.  She will find him narcissistic and dismissive  but she has no clue about how her traits of being overly emotional are helping to make him feel like getting away from 'crazy' and supports him moving more and more into his shut-down, dismissive, self-soothing narcissistic style as the way to over function in the cool, calm, collected department.  She makes no sense to him, but he has very little understanding of emotional life.  He makes no sense to her, but she has very little understanding of maintaining calm or distance.   They BOTH  have the potential to make each other MORE crazy, or to just argue for 30 years about who is the bigger jerk. This is not productive.  They at times even switch roles, which makes it even more nuts.

 

That's why eyes on your own paper is such a good idea. No matter what.  Cause YOU are the only person you can change.  That's why good marriage counseling is not about labeling whose the bigger jerk or who is more sick.   There is a reason why two people 'choose' each other.  We  typically don't pair up with someone who is either way below or way above our own level of emotional intelligence and differentiation.  

[babyducks]

 

That's why eyes on your own paper is such a good idea. No matter what.  Cause YOU are the only person you can change.  That's why good marriage counseling is not about labeling whose the bigger jerk or who is more sick.   There is a reason why two people 'choose' each other.  We  typically don't pair up with someone who is either way below or way above our own level of emotional intelligence and differentiation.  

Bingo.

MaybeSo said a lot of good things extremely well.

There is certainly a reason why I paired up with my SO.   I would really like  to think I was a lot 'less the jerk'  and more emotionally healthy and blah blah blah.   The truth be told my behavior at the low points of our relationship was equally appalling.   

I needed to turn the focus on to me, and my communication skills and behavior.

And surprisingly when I got to act 'less the jerk' so did she. 

[formflier]

 

Thanks for the great explanation Maybeso!

I remember a time... .early on in my application of skills I learned on this site.

We were in MC and my wife said... ."There has been a lot less arguing lately... .not sure what's up with that... ."

I kept the reason... .or my version of the reason... .to myself.

Plus... .I like myself better when I am less argumentative... .when I just let the "bait" that gets tossed out to start a fight... .just lie there... .let the blame lie there and don't pick it up.


FF