Do people with BPD push/ pull with their kids?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I am wondering if they only push/pull with their romantic partners or if they also play this game with their kids. 

[deux soeurs]

I am wondering if they only push/pull with their romantic partners or if they also play this game with their kids. 

[SweetCharlotte]

Yes, they do. In my experience, they find different ways to justify it, but they are impelled to do it so they must.

My uBPDh will typically accuse our daughter of behavior that could cause him to lose his job. He is an educator, and the threshold of tolerance is lower than for other kinds of work. He is a "mandated reporter," which means that if he knows of abuse against a child, he is obligated to report it to authorities or else he is guilty too.

When he is having an "episode," he uses this to push our daughter away. She becomes dangerous to him: she is watching videos I should have kept from her, she is in touch with friends who aren't good for her, etc. In his mind this justifies pushing her away; she could cause him to lose his job.

[deux soeurs]

SweetCharlotte, thank you for sharing this.  It is interesting that you say "they are compelled to do this"... .Does he push/pull you as well?  Does he take turns?  I am sorry your daughter and you are in this situation which I am not a stranger too. 

[Notwendy]

I think it depends on the age and gender of the child.

My mother does the push pull with me, but it is also a function of her projecting on to me. Even in my baby book there is evidence that she projected and painted me black. For instance, if I spit up, I did it on purpose to spit up on her.

The push pull she did with my father was sexual. She was flirty and seductive with him. That didn't work on me, so she had to find other ways to deal with me. By adolescence, I didn't have much respect for her, so she ruled me with terror via my dad.

I adored my dad, but if she were upset, she could get him to turn on me in an instance. - so she did her push pull via him. She would pull because I was useful to her. Painting me black served their relationship. She basically blamed me for their marital problems. I really believed- for years- that when I left home, they would have a happy marriage. I left home to go to college. I was shocked, years later, to find out that they still had marital issues. I was completely convinced that my leaving home would solve all their problems.

If you think I was a bad rebellious teen, I was not. I was a good student, made good grades, but I thought I was the cause of all her problems.

My father was madly in love with her, but I was not. The push pull with him had a different quality to it.

[sweetheart]

Hi deux soeurs,

The push/pull dynamic has never been in play between my dBPDh and our s7. What has become evident is that ,my dBPDh needs to be seen by our son as 'the good father.' I notice that he keeps the relationship with s7 as good as he possibly can, despite some truly difficult times over the last two years, my h has tried really hard to be the best father he can be given the limitations of the illness.

I am in no doubt though that I consciously pick up a huge amount of emotional slack, so as to divert any of 'the crazy dysfunction away from our son. That said s7 is aware in an age appropriate way about his fathers illness, and has professional support through a Play therapist, because no matter how much emotional protection I can offer, with BPD and families it is never a level playing field.

I don't know if this current dynamic will change as our son gets older.

[Notwendy]

I think it depends on the severity of the BPD and the emotional makeup of the other partner, like Sweetheart says.

I think the bigger scheme is family systems where all family members play a role in stabilizing a family when one or more members has a dysfunction. Children can take on roles such as golden child, scapegoat... .

However, neither role is good for a child. I was clearly the scapegoat, but the golden child also has issues. Perhaps the obvious one for me was that being blamed for issues with my parents made me very susceptible to accepting blame in relationships and being co-dependent. It was all I knew.

Sweetheart's awareness of these issues will go a long way towards her son's well being. My parents did not have access to the information that we have today. The focus was on "normalizing" mom by keeping it a secret, and enabling her. This is what my dad believed was best for her. We know more now.

[sweetheart]

Notwendy makes for a very insightful post, with much resonance for me as a mother.

Family systems as we know can be very damaging, my understanding of my FOO issues, and much to my surprise my h's understanding of his own FOO issues, I believe have allowed us both as parents to allow our son to be who he wants to be in his own right. He is neither Golden Child or scapegoat for our emotional detritus.

In my own family, I was the brainy one, my h was the emotional scapegoat in his.

We made a very conscious informed decision to have a child given my h's diagnosis. What I have always known from the moment I made a decision to have a child is that if any of my h's illness negatively impacted on our son I would leave. Our son is my line in the sand, my deal breaker. And thus far he is proof it is possible to raise a emotionally healthy child despite the devastation that mental illness can bring to a family.

I just want to say, we all as a family have support in place through T's and P's and other means, what we do, how we live our lives would not be possible without support and ongoing awareness of how this illness manifests itself within our family dynamics.

[Hawk Ridge]

How about behavior towards stepchildren or children of partner? My ex was extremely critical of her ex's children, having unreasonably high expectations as she did with me.

[SweetCharlotte]

How about behavior towards stepchildren or children of partner? My ex was extremely critical of her ex's children, having unreasonably high expectations as she did with me.

Funny you should mention that. I should have specified in my post (1st answer to Deux Soeurs above) that "our daughter" is actually my D11 from an anonymous donor. I had her after my first marriage and first child (S17). My uBPDh and I started going together when she was six. I hoped that he would be a real Dad for her; more than a stepfather, since she has no other parent but me. At first, it looked like they bonded, but then he started pushing her away, with the rationalizations noted above (she is a danger to his career because he is a mandated reporter and if she is abused or neglected his career is over).

However, I don't think things would be much better if they were blood relatives and he was there from the beginning. He shuns ALL of his blood relatives COMPLETELY. They are all "out to get him." He has no biological children because his past relationships were too unstable and by the time he and I got together I was too old to get pregnant. Some pwBPD might be more attached to their own kin (especially if they are highly narcissistic; the genetic similarity could have more allure), but it doesn't work that way with my hubz.

In response to Deux Soeurs, he does tend to push us both away at the same time. That's how I know it is one of his "episodes," which sometimes seems close to a psychotic break. This was painful for D11; she gained and then lost a father figure in her life. Perhaps this was worse than never having a second parent. I discuss his difficulties with her, but she does throw them in his face, which puts even more distance between them. He says, "She doesn't want me around anyway" when it's HE who wants to push us away.

[Notwendy]

I would think they would see the children as a sort of competition for the spouse's attention and resources, and also as a possible triangulation.

I think intimacy problems are common in relationships with pw BPD. While the relationship with a child is not intimate, it is affectionate and I think this can be seen as sort of competition. My mom also saw people as being on her side or not her side.

When triangulating, it was a more stable situation for my parents to be united against a common person who has offended them or a situation they didn't like. I think couples do unite and stand up for each other. However, this also happened when mom painted me or another kid- or all the kids, black.

I also had a close bond with my father, and this, at some level, felt like competition to my mother. She was also concerned we would "side" against her, which didn't really happen- as my father was focused on my my mother's needs first, but she saw any bond between us as that. I tried to maintain a relationship with my father, but after I left home, if I sent him a letter at his office, or an e mail, he turned it over to her. He was not allowed to give me anything of his, or money, without checking with her first, and so could not help me much with college. If I spoke to my father on the phone, she listened in and he also shared e mails and letters that I sent him with her.

I am mom's biological child, but it doesn't feel as if she bonded to me. I feel certain that she would have sent me out of their home if I was not her own child, but being that I was made it harder to push my father to do that.

I think this can vary between people and also severity. My mother is on the severe end of the BPD spectrum, IMHO.

[Notwendy]

Some pwBPD might be more attached to their own kin (especially if they are highly narcissistic; the genetic similarity could have more allure), but it doesn't work that way with my hubz.

That's how it is with my mother. She has painted me black to her kin, but they are all about each other. She is considered "one of them" to them and I am "not one of them" at family events. They all tell each other everything. There doesn't seem to be any boundaries between them- speak to one, you speak to all.

With my own H and kids, we are a family but we are individuals too. If my H spends time alone with the kids, I don't have to know every detail. If they call him about something, I am not listening. I don't read his e mails. Surely we would share pertinent information about family members, but not every single conversation or e mail. Maybe the kind of behavior my father had with me was following their rules.

[SweetCharlotte]

My mom also saw people as being on her side or not her side.

When triangulating, it was a more stable situation for my parents to be united against a common person who has offended them or a situation they didn't like. I think couples do unite and stand up for each other. However, this also happened when mom painted me or another kid- or all the kids, black.

That is a tough situation to have a mother like that. I sus pect my Mom was uBPD too. She wouldn't allow my Dad to show me any affection, and she never hugged or kissed me. I grew up thinking that this was normal, and that only grandparents hug and kiss children.

With my uBPDh, it's definitely a "you're with me or against me" situation. He likes it when we back each other up and discipline her. Too much discipline and too little love have made her reject him, and he blames me for this. I broke the united front against her, combining forces with the enemy. However, I loved her years before I made the bad decision of loving him.

I do have a boundary and he has always known it: if he makes me choose between my kids and him, he's the one who gets punted to the curb.

[Notwendy]

My mom doesn't kiss or hug me either. Sometimes she gives a forced peck when we are saying goodbye after visiting, since this is something we do in our family. I can't imagine. I always hugged and kissed my kids when they were little, and as they got older I am still affectionate as is appropriate. Like you, my kids' well being is my #1 priority.

I feel badly for my father having been placed between a rock and a hard place. I always knew he cared about me. We did manage some one on one time, and it was quality time. In her presence , it was about her. When he got much older, he really appreciated home cooked meals. Mom didn't like to cook. When I visited,  I would cook for him- actually for the family- family size meals as well as make him his favorite breakfast. This infuriated my mother. She would also get angry if I brought any of his favorite foods into the house. I just wanted to do some nice things for him in his later years.

[SweetCharlotte]

When he got much older, he really appreciated home cooked meals. Mom didn't like to cook. When I visited,  I would cook for him- actually for the family- family size meals as well as make him his favorite breakfast. This infuriated my mother. She would also get angry if I brought any of his favorite foods into the house. I just wanted to do some nice things for him in his later years.

I admire how you have done right by your parents and your kids despite being raised in this situation.

My parents didn't get much older. My uBPDm found out that she had terminal cirrhosis after decades of alcoholism. She couldn't stand to think that my Dad would outlive her though he drank more than she did (he would outliver her—sorry, that's bad).

They lived in chaos with encroaching debts and no jobs. She was 58 and he was 63. It's tough to say what happened for certain, but she seems to have broken a plate over his head, precipitating a brain hemorrhage/stroke. He was still in a coma when she died three weeks later from esophageal varices (what happens when a cirrhotic liver causes blood to back up and bleed into the gastrointestinal tract, weakened in her case by decades of chain-smoking menthol cigarettes). When he woke up in hospital, he asked the nurse for her. The nurse said, "Who's that?" He said, "The most beautiful woman in the world."

He never recovered from this stroke, remaining almost totally paralyzed and in a nursing home until he passed away seven years later. If my uBPDm had lived, she might have been prosecuted for this assault, but she knew she was on her way out. She had even given him (or just written out—I found it amongst her possessions later) a "final birthday card" in which she included his birth and death dates (that year for his death). The cover of the card was red roses on a sinister black background.

My Dad was no angel though—he probably drank to medicate a bipolar condition as well as to deal with her. As his personality disintegrated in middle age, he beat her and broke her arm on one occasion. Mom excused it at the time as a flashback of his from the Korean War.

Sorry this is so off-topic for the Relationship Partners Board, but it may be useful information for those who are Undecided.

[Proboscidea]

My BPD mother never pushed her favorite away. She tried to bind him to her side. They have a sick almost SO relationship since my dad left. But she pushed me away and told me she never wanted me. Maybe this is sort of the same thing.

My mom does push/pull with boyfriend. She loves him. Then he is gone because she threw him out. Rinse repeat.

I don't pick good guys for boyfriends either.

Bpd mother's are lethal and contagious. I left but I get the push/pull. I do it too sometimes. I am in therapy so I don't turn into them.

[Notwendy]

Wow SweetCharlotte, that is a tragic story about your parents. My father would have also said that my mother was the most beautiful woman in the world, no matter how tough their relationship looked to us.

Having a favorite- all white child- and an all black child- I think is common. Although it hurt to be the painted black child when I was a kid, in a way, I am grateful for it now as I was able to separate myself better. The favorite child in my family is more enmeshed.

[Michelle27]

My H painted my daughter from my first marriage horribly black for many years.  To the point of inventing "bad" acts that she didn't actually do.  He admits it now and can actually articulate that after his son was discovered to have been horribly abused and quite damaged in his Mother's home, my H felt the need to "even things up" by damaging my daughter.  I am still unsure if I can ever forgive him for that.

[Notwendy]

It's weird to think they do that but I think it is a form of relieving his own guilt at having had this happen to his son. Like if it also happened to someone else, then he would not be the only one?

My mom can tend to look for "dirt" on me or the kids, when there isn't any to find. Like if the kids aren't talking about friends she assumes nobody likes them. If anyone has any emotional distress- they are severely depressed. If dad snapped at her in anger, he was "psychotic". 

In a very strange way, I think your H alleviated his own shame by doing this to your D.

[deux soeurs]

NotWendy,Michelle27... .yes... .isn't that BPD projecting their own feelings onto you/us?  It is such a hard thing to wrap around as a non but we must never forget they are mentally ill and their minds are wired so differently from us.