Wouldn't you just rather get the truth told to you?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is frustration with the community.

We are all disturbed in our own way from our relationships, of course, but I often see more hate than empathy. The members that can be trusted here do a great job empathizing. Who we are we aiming this hate at though?

Are we aiming it ourselves, or at the foreign concepts that we have built to believe in things?

[valet]

This is frustration with the community.

We are all disturbed in our own way from our relationships, of course, but I often see more hate than empathy. The members that can be trusted here do a great job empathizing. Who we are we aiming this hate at though?

Are we aiming it ourselves, or at the foreign concepts that we have built to believe in things?

[enlighten me]

I think some is aimed at ourselves and some is because we have strong morales and the fact that these have been violated disgusts us.

I know that a lot of my anger was due to my dented ego. That i was taken in and conned. I also know that some of it was disgust that people could treat others so callously.

[valet]

I think some is aimed at ourselves and some is because we have strong morales and the fact that these have been violated disgusts us.

I know that a lot of my anger was due to my dented ego. That i was taken in and conned. I also know that some of it was disgust that people could treat others so callously.

Why were you disgusted though, and what did that feeling lead you to?

Negativity, I would guess, then a slow drip toward positivity.

But maybe the question that I need to answer is 'What is loss?'.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, it's interesting, and shocking really, at least for me, how far down the rabbit hole we can go in these relationships, how lost in the fog we can get, how much abuse and disrespect we can tolerate and not do anything about it, until finally the pain of staying becomes greater than the pain of leaving and we bail, or to add insult to injury, our exes leave us for someone else.  It's so not fair we scream!  And it isn't, for the borderline or for us, and most of us haven't been enmeshed with mental illness before, not used to walking on eggshells, tense all the time, confused and off balance.  And then when it ends and we get some distance?  The fog starts to clear and we start to feel all the things we were protecting ourselves against in the relationship, normal, healthy responses to abuse and disrespect.  Anger is a phase of grieving and detachment, anger at the evil borderline, anger at ourselves, anger at everything.  And it's interesting to see people work through all of that, first the denial, then the anger, then the depression, and finally the acceptance, or a flip-flopping between them for a while.  And it's cool how we can then forgive ourselves first, and the memories become benign, and the empathy and compassion can show up, maybe first for ourselves, then for our exes, who for the most part walk a very tough road, one that may never get smoother, where we can become grateful for lessons learned and wiser, as we set about creating a future of our own design.  And it takes what it takes, helpful to accept folks where they are as they work through the process and offer learned wisdom if they ask, we're all in this together and it's a brand new day.

[Billygoat]

The truth changes with your perceptions. My truth when my ex left me was very different to my truth and perception today. Had someone told me this heartbreak and unending pain was a mirror reflecting some element of my childhood in those first few weeks or months, I'd have wished to break their face.

Hurt people need black and white thinking at that stage, it's kill or cure. We can only get into shades of grey later down the line. It's very hard to read some of the comments as the pain spills off the screen, at some point we either turn the critical gaze into ourselves and heal the wound that causes us to tolerate BPD abuses in the first place or we go off and have another dysfunctional relationship. I'm too old to keep getting this wrong so I had/have to heal.

Anyway, what do they say, it's not the destination that counts or will bring you to your healing; it's the climb. And we can't rob others of their climb we can just point in the general direction.

[fromheeltoheal]

Had someone told me this heartbreak and unending pain was a mirror reflecting some element of my childhood in those first few weeks or months, I'd have wished to break their face.

at some point we either turn the critical gaze into ourselves and heal the wound that causes us to tolerate BPD abuses in the first place or we go off and have another dysfunctional relationship.

Yes, that can be the hardest part of detaching and healing, it was for me, the inner searching into why I got so embroiled in a clearly unhealthy situation to begin with, and why it started feeling like an addiction I was jonesing for when the idealization was withdrawn.  The conditions that created the initial infatuation and the ensuing longing were there long before I met her, and that crafty borderline awakened them in me in such a way that made them obvious, and for that I'm grateful, and no pain no gain doesn't always apply, but it sure did here.

[WhatJustHappened?]

I think some is aimed at ourselves and some is because we have strong morales and the fact that these have been violated disgusts us.

I know that a lot of my anger was due to my dented ego. That i was taken in and conned. I also know that some of it was disgust that people could treat others so callously.

Exactly. ... .and I knew better. Next time, listen to that inner voice.

[once removed]

it frustrates me too but thats mainly just because i dont much relate. ive tried to accept and understand that for as much as we have in common, we are all approaching recovery in different ways. the wounds differ and the extent of them differ. our experiences differ. our body/brain chemistry differs. as such, our approach in helping should try to adapt to those many different ways, i think. a few examples i try to remind myself of:

the five stages of grief. as we know, everyone may experience this very differently. cycling back and forth, going out of order, staying in one place, etc. anger is a stage of grief. it too, will be experienced differently.

we are told pwBPD arent receptive to similar kinds of information. why should nons be any different?

knowledge of BPD is very useful, and its validating. without it, i think my recovery would have looked a lot like painting my ex black and going from there. we dont all process the "knowledge of BPD" in the same way and its impact on our grief process may differ greatly.

to answer the question that is the title of your thread, it depends. not if the person telling me the "truth" was projecting their experience or feelings on me. not if i didnt trust the person, or the forum, yet. not if i couldnt relate to the person and vice versa. speaking personally, i often find i cant stand "blunt" people or who consider themselves blunt, and think theyre offering some "hard truth" prescription. so i sure as heck wouldnt be receptive to that approach.

[Infared]

I know that the person is disordered... .but they harmed me terribly emotionally... .I am talking serious emotional damage. I am angry about it. I was deceived, betrayed and abandoned and then acted out on repeatedly in a abusive attacking manner by someone that I deeply cared for. It did a number on me.  I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it. I have empathy for the person that treated me that way... .

I think that there is truth to the observations that we were angry at ourselves, too. I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

Detaching from a BPD is brutal... .isn't it?

[fromheeltoheal]

I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it.

I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

So isn't that the answer Infrared?  Certainly don't ignore again, but also choose to trust someone you're not ignoring once they prove themselves worthy of that trust?

[Infared]

I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it.

I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

So isn't that the answer Infrared?  Certainly don't ignore again, but also choose to trust someone you're not ignoring once they prove themselves worthy of that trust?

That is the perfect answer on paper. I can intellectually grasp that... .but my heart and my soul haven't read that page. I actually recoil from women. Physically recoil. I was not like that before this relationship. I did not do this to myself.  My ex has done the same loop on all the men she has been with. She is not healthy... .I have a sadness for her that she can't really even love herself... .That is my truth. There are lots of other things in life for me to concentrate on... .I am slowly just letting that part of life disappear.  It's a lot calmer and a lot safer.

[fromheeltoheal]

I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it.

I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

So isn't that the answer Infrared?  Certainly don't ignore again, but also choose to trust someone you're not ignoring once they prove themselves worthy of that trust?

That is the perfect answer on paper. I can intellectually grasp that... .but my heart and my soul haven't read that page. I actually recoil from women. Physically recoil. I was not like that before this relationship. I did not do this to myself.  My ex has done the same loop on all the men she has been with. She is not healthy... .I have a sadness for her that she can't really even love herself... .That is my truth. There are lots of other things in life for me to concentrate on... .I am slowly just letting that part of life disappear.  It's a lot calmer and a lot safer.

Yeah, I get it Infrared, there's no way in hell I'm going down that path again, and how do you know?  What I've been working on lately is holding my center, staying centered, when I talk to people, and spending time with a lot of women with zero expectations just to practice.  It's interesting with single women, when I show zero interest beyond a conversation they seem to get curious, like what's up with this guy, most guys try to hit on me all the time?  And then she'll start doing all the talking and I can really listen, intensely listen, not necessarily for red flags, lacing up my shoes ready to run, just really listen to who she's showing me she is.  The change is I didn't do that with my ex, or several previous gf's for that matter, I just got caught up in the chemistry and sexual tension and didn't find out who she really was until much later.  That's new for me, refreshing, calmer as you say, and safer hopefully, and since I'm not bound to do anything I don't want to do when I'm staying centered, I think I'm on to something.  We'll see, but it feels right for now.

[Infared]

I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it.

I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

So isn't that the answer Infrared?  Certainly don't ignore again, but also choose to trust someone you're not ignoring once they prove themselves worthy of that trust?

That is the perfect answer on paper. I can intellectually grasp that... .but my heart and my soul haven't read that page. I actually recoil from women. Physically recoil. I was not like that before this relationship. I did not do this to myself.  My ex has done the same loop on all the men she has been with. She is not healthy... .I have a sadness for her that she can't really even love herself... .That is my truth. There are lots of other things in life for me to concentrate on... .I am slowly just letting that part of life disappear.  It's a lot calmer and a lot safer.

Yeah, I get it Infrared, there's no way in hell I'm going down that path again, and how do you know?  What I've been working on lately is holding my center, staying centered, when I talk to people, and spending time with a lot of women with zero expectations just to practice.  It's interesting with single women, when I show zero interest beyond a conversation they seem to get curious, like what's up with this guy, most guys try to hit on me all the time?  And then she'll start doing all the talking and I can really listen, intensely listen, not necessarily for red flags, lacing up my shoes ready to run, just really listen to who she's showing me she is.  The change is I didn't do that with my ex, or several previous gf's for that matter, I just got caught up in the chemistry and sexual tension and didn't find out who she really was until much later.  That's new for me, refreshing, calmer as you say, and safer hopefully, and since I'm not bound to do anything I don't want to do when I'm staying centered, I think I'm on to something.  We'll see, but it feels right for now.

You sound as though you are moving along in a healthy way, after being spit out of the tribune of BPD. Just keep moving forward. You just gave me a morsel of hope!

[Ripples]

I think a damaged ego is the problem but ego is based on a variety of beliefs and influences. My Ego is mainly based on morals that I still believe in and uphold today. And of course a part of my ego was influenced by my early life experiences, and this is the bit that was vulnerable to her abuse. My morals haven't changed as a result of my experiences but the effects of my early life experiences have been stripped and analysed so that I don't make the same mistakes again.

Even after many years I still find myself amazed at what happened and the things that have transpired since. Despite my improved knowledge of her behaviour and mine I still cant believe what has happened. I don't think this will ever subside despite my life moving on. Im angry at myself for being vulnerable to her abuse. For believing that she was genuine. It does change your belief in trusting people. And equally im angry at her for thinking she can just walk away from the damage and pain she caused without the slightest bit of guilt. You have to be a special kind of ***k up to do that.

[valet]

Good comments all around.

I'm about 5 months out, and the last couple of weeks I have found myself feeling very angry. More angry than I have throughout this entire process so far.

I try not to project this anger onto others, but it is becoming more and more difficult. I have been saying things on this board from a place of non-empathy. A place that is unproductive for myself and unproductive for others.

I think, however, that even though I say that I have forgiven my ex, that I was bottling that anger, and now it is starting to seep through the cracks and manifest itself.

I'm not sure though. It is like I need something to hate right now, an object or person, but I can not reasonably allow myself to be angry at someone for choices that they have made. I am trying to skip straight to acceptance when it might be best to actually work toward it.

EDIT:

And to add to this, my ex texted and called me to ask if I was ok last night. I haven't responded, but I think I'll send her a message answering her question. And maybe, just maybe, this might be the first step that I have to take to rebuild my trust in her.

I went on a pretty long Twitter rant (out of character for me), just kind of calling her out in a very passive-aggressive, non-specific way (again, out of character). I did this because I find that more than anything I hate the disorder. I hate the hell out of it, what it has done to me and what it has done to her. This is something that I thought I had worked through, but it appears be my behavior that I was wrong and need to take a step back.

[Infared]

Good comments all around.

I'm about 5 months out, and the last couple of weeks I have found myself feeling very angry. More angry than I have throughout this entire process so far.

I try not to project this anger onto others, but it is becoming more and more difficult. I have been saying things on this board from a place of non-empathy. A place that is unproductive for myself and unproductive for others.

I think, however, that even though I say that I have forgiven my ex, that I was bottling that anger, and now it is starting to seep through the cracks and manifest itself.

I'm not sure though. It is like I need something to hate right now, an object or person, but I can not reasonably allow myself to be angry at someone for choices that they have made. I am trying to skip straight to acceptance when it might be best to actually work toward it.

EDIT:

And to add to this, my ex texted and called me to ask if I was ok last night. I haven't responded, but I think I'll send her a message answering her question. And maybe, just maybe, this might be the first step that I have to take to rebuild my trust in her.

I went on a pretty long Twitter rant (out of character for me), just kind of calling her out in a very passive-aggressive, non-specific way (again, out of character). I did this because I find that more than anything I hate the disorder. I hate the hell out of it, what it has done to me and what it has done to her. This is something that I thought I had worked through, but it appears be my behavior that I was wrong and need to take a step back.

I have really struggled with the forgiveness part. Especially when years later she still performs whacky, childish things in public? There was never any remorse or repentance... .none. She just attached to someone else then disposed of me.  (I thought we were so close to one another?). It was insanely abrupt and so, so ice cold.

In therapy I was able to see my part in it. See that I walked right into a relationship with an unhealthy person... .see that I needed to forgive "me" (I had no clue before T), and everything that I read said I had to forgive her to help me. I just could not.

I found this book "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis A. Spring, that has helped me sort out all those mixed up feelings. I still am not healed, but it at least helped me identify what I am able to do. "Accept" her for the disordered person that she is and it helps stop the expectation that she will some day act like a balanced, loving human being.

It helps me to know that acceptance is all I am capable of right now. I do still have pain and anger... .but at least I see where I am.  I am still hurt and dumbfounded by the things that she said and did, though. My total acceptance of who she is has also been the sole reason that I am able to stay absolute NC. She still tries every now and then. The book talks about "cheap forgiveness" which I avoided, but perhaps you have engaged in that. Just a guess. It's not uncommon. Oh, we humans are complicated, but I believe we can seek a path to feeling better.

[disillusionedandsore]

I'm not sure I understand the thread title... .? So I'm finding it hard to follow. Do you mean get told the truth by the pwBPD?

[valet]

I'm not sure I understand the thread title... .? So I'm finding it hard to follow. Do you mean get told the truth by the pwBPD?

The thread title is a bit misleading. Let me elaborate upon it.

The human psyche frustrates me. The fact that we have to 'process' things to accept them seems kind of like, and this is the best way that I know how to say it, a big, fat waste of time. Of course, by saying this I am denying my own basic traits as a human being, and that is not a healthy view.

I find myself angry with the time that we need to recover from a relationship like this, or any kind of loss. I think a big hurdle in my own healing has become the 'concept' of healing itself. When I ask the question in the thread title, I'm questioning the stages of grief that we encounter. Why are they necessary? What is the point? Why has the human brain developed in a way that naturally puts it at a disadvantage sometimes?

What I really mean to ask is, more generally, 'Wouldn't you just rather accept everything instantaneously and move on?'

My answer would undoubtedly be yes, but it is not possible. That's the dissonance that I need to accept right now.

[disillusionedandsore]

Infrared,  our MC suggested (after the break up) that I read up on Attachment... .at the time I didn't want to read or hear about any thing 'relationshippy',  I wanted the therapist to tell me straight up that yes my ex was seriously messed up!

Anyway,  didn't get that validation there... .But I did take him up more recently on his suggestion as I realised I hear the word so much and I'm genuinely confused as to the difference between love,  attachment,  trauma bonds,  healthy bonds,  detachment  etc etc.  After being on this site for a whiIe,  I began to think of 'attachment' as a bad thing as in it's from need so must be wrong... .It's what pwPBD do... .Etc

I came across a recommendation by another member here of a book called 'Attached' and pursued it.  It helped sort out a lot of stuff for me,  things kind of fell away about my mine and my ex's compatability,  my fears of being duped (hurt) again and really gave me Hope that I would have the wisdom to know the difference between compatible and incompatible (with me) and that a secure loving relationship was possible with a different type of person.  Honestly I can't recommend it highly enough.

[Billygoat]

I'm not sure I understand the thread title... .? So I'm finding it hard to follow. Do you mean get told the truth by the pwBPD?

The thread title is a bit misleading. Let me elaborate upon it.

The human psyche frustrates me. The fact that we have to 'process' things to accept them seems kind of like, and this is the best way that I know how to say it, a big, fat waste of time. Of course, by saying this I am denying my own basic traits as a human being, and that is not a healthy view.

I find myself angry with the time that we need to recover from a relationship like this, or any kind of loss. I think a big hurdle in my own healing has become the 'concept' of healing itself. When I ask the question in the thread title, I'm questioning the stages of grief that we encounter. Why are they necessary? What is the point? Why has the human brain developed in a way that naturally puts it at a disadvantage sometimes?

What I really mean to ask is, more generally, 'Wouldn't you just rather accept everything instantaneously and move on?'

My answer would undoubtedly be yes, but it is not possible. That's the dissonance that I need to accept right now.

Without suffering we'd repeat the same mistakes over and over and learn nothing. I agree; I'd much rather just red pill to the truth and sod the suffering but it seems to be, and there's a rather famous 2000 year old story that points to this truth, that suffering is the road to enlightenment. There's only one way out and I would not advocate that.

This lesson has been on my life curriculim for at least 20 years, ive had 20 years of partners, I chose much better as a young adult, as time passes ive made more compromises and lost sight of who I was with each passing relationship until finally this one; this one illicit es enough pain and suffering to finally teach me some important lessons. Lessons about my own power, lessons about how poorly I treat myself comparing to others. Ive abused my body, soul and spirit for years often for very short term gain, it's not the way. I haven't forgiven my ex completely, but I do know that without her, without the huge suffering I would never have sought the change needed in my life.

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

[disillusionedandsore]

Thanks Valet for clearing that up. I hear you,  dont know that I have the answer... . 

It seems we humans can only digest things in little lumps... .One thing I have found very strange in my own case is that I have such a vivid memory for this relationship,  like everything was heightened,  visual memory,  auditory memory etc I dont think I have ever had that before,  even ten months out I

can feel it like it was yesterday.  I want to be over it already but no it's not exactly going away, things keep coming up... .to be further digested and processed.  This is the truth I seek now... .getting to know myself better as a result.

[fromheeltoheal]

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

The movie ends when Joel and Clementine discover the company that erases specific memories for a fee, and are shocked to learn that their memories of each other and their previous relationship that fell apart have been erased, but the spark is still there, they still like each other, so they start again.  Cue the sunset and string music, happily ever after... .

That's a movie you can make mean what you want.  What I make it mean is memories, beliefs, identities are all malleable and subject to choice, we can make them mean what we want, but there's something deeper under it all that perseveres.  Then again, one interpretation is that Clementine, the Kate Winslet character, is a borderline, so buyer beware, per usual.

[Billygoat]

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

The movie ends when Joel and Clementine discover the company that erases specific memories for a fee, and are shocked to learn that their memories of each other and their previous relationship that fell apart have been erased, but the spark is still there, they still like each other, so they start again.  Cue the sunset and string music, happily ever after... .

That's a movie you can make mean what you want.  What I make it mean is memories, beliefs, identities are all malleable and subject to choice, we can make them mean what we want, but there's something deeper under it all that perseveres.  Then again, one interpretation is that Clementine, the Kate Winslet character, is a borderline, so buyer beware, per usual.

So, he recycles! Cues up for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind II.

[fromheeltoheal]

The human psyche frustrates me. The fact that we have to 'process' things to accept them seems kind of like, and this is the best way that I know how to say it, a big, fat waste of time. Of course, by saying this I am denying my own basic traits as a human being, and that is not a healthy view.

I find myself angry with the time that we need to recover from a relationship like this, or any kind of loss. I think a big hurdle in my own healing has become the 'concept' of healing itself. When I ask the question in the thread title, I'm questioning the stages of grief that we encounter. Why are they necessary? What is the point? Why has the human brain developed in a way that naturally puts it at a disadvantage sometimes?

What I really mean to ask is, more generally, 'Wouldn't you just rather accept everything instantaneously and move on?'

There's what happens and what we make it mean, two different things.  In general we can change how we feel about something by changing what we make it mean, what our beliefs are around it, works pretty well, but with these relationships it takes a little extra work.

A borderline's need to attach, not in a Hallmark card 'you complete me' kind of way but in an unhealthy fusing of psyches to create one person out of two kind of way, a reenactment of the bond they had with their primary caregiver, probably their mother, the one they never successfully detached from, the situation that created the disorder to begin with, that need to attach and a borderline's survival-based expert way of doing it, creates a bond with our psyche that touches the deepest parts of us.  As we develop from newborns to autonomous adults, we formulate beliefs about ourselves, who we are, identities, beliefs about how people 'are' and how the world 'is', to make sense of it all, a model of the world that allows us to be content and at peace within it.  That starts with our earliest experiences with our parents and siblings and builds from there, so when a borderline shows up and attaches in that deep, unhealthy way, it touches the deepest parts of us, and when it doesn't work, we're left questioning those deepest parts, the ones our entire lives are built upon.  So the 'processing' we do is a process of rewiring our belief systems about ourselves and the world to make sense of it all again, and that takes a while when you start at the very beginning.  Which brings to mind the adage that nothing worth it is easy, and one thing we can make the experience mean is it's an opportunity, one we can end up grateful for, to dig deep and reassess how we got here and where we're going, motivated by pain, usually the strongest motivator, and maybe everything happens for a reason and it serves us, another belief, and that crafty borderline showed up in our lives exactly when it was time to learn some new lessons, maybe ones we'd been banging up against but not learning for years, and it took the gift of mental illness to give us the push to get through.

One man's hallucination, sitting well with me on a Sunday morning.

[going places]

Wouldn't you just rather get the truth told to you?

This is frustration with the community.

We are all disturbed in our own way from our relationships, of course, but I often see more hate than empathy.

In the early stages it's hard to have empathy for someone who abused and violated you.

It's part of the grief and healing process.

People have to be allowed this process.

Some people will never be the same (PTSD), and it's no fault of their own... .

It's a process, and each person has the right to that process... .

The members that can be trusted here do a great job empathizing. Who we are we aiming this hate at though?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but to imply (1) only empathizing members are trust worthy, is wrong, and unkind and (2) back to the process... .everyone will have an anger portion of the process and each individual should be allowed this step. To critisize a person or belittle a person because they are in the anger process, is unkind at the VERY least... .

Are we aiming it ourselves, or at the foreign concepts that we have built to believe in things?

Part of the process IS to be angry w/ self.

"How could I be so stupid, blind, gullible, fooled, etc."

I am not sure what you mean by 'foreign concepts'?

The 'hate, anger, etc' is pointed at the offender, clearly... .

Again, part of the process everyone will go thru. And should be allowed, to go thru.

[fromheeltoheal]

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

The movie ends when Joel and Clementine discover the company that erases specific memories for a fee, and are shocked to learn that their memories of each other and their previous relationship that fell apart have been erased, but the spark is still there, they still like each other, so they start again.  Cue the sunset and string music, happily ever after... .

That's a movie you can make mean what you want.  What I make it mean is memories, beliefs, identities are all malleable and subject to choice, we can make them mean what we want, but there's something deeper under it all that perseveres.  Then again, one interpretation is that Clementine, the Kate Winslet character, is a borderline, so buyer beware, per usual.

So, he recycles! Cues up for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind II.

Aha!  It was all a Hollywood ploy to make a sequel!  Well, with that movie, very unique and thought-provoking, it would probably be called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind 6, just to screw with us.

[Infared]

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

The movie ends when Joel and Clementine discover the company that erases specific memories for a fee, and are shocked to learn that their memories of each other and their previous relationship that fell apart have been erased, but the spark is still there, they still like each other, so they start again.  Cue the sunset and string music, happily ever after... .

That's a movie you can make mean what you want.  What I make it mean is memories, beliefs, identities are all malleable and subject to choice, we can make them mean what we want, but there's something deeper under it all that perseveres.  Then again, one interpretation is that Clementine, the Kate Winslet character, is a borderline, so buyer beware, per usual.

So, he recycles! Cues up for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind II.

EXACTLY! 

[Infared]

I watched the movie once 'eternal sunshine of the spotless mind', I don't remember much about it now but believe the core storyline is man wants to completely forget woman. I don't even remember the ending, I just remember thinking such a cute or pill would be invaluable. However if that movie does not end with the lead man not wishing to erase his pain it was a bad ending indeed!

The movie ends when Joel and Clementine discover the company that erases specific memories for a fee, and are shocked to learn that their memories of each other and their previous relationship that fell apart have been erased, but the spark is still there, they still like each other, so they start again.  Cue the sunset and string music, happily ever after... .

That's a movie you can make mean what you want.  What I make it mean is memories, beliefs, identities are all malleable and subject to choice, we can make them mean what we want, but there's something deeper under it all that perseveres.  Then again, one interpretation is that Clementine, the Kate Winslet character, is a borderline, so buyer beware, per usual.

So, he recycles! Cues up for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind II.

Aha!  It was all a Hollywood ploy to make a sequel!  Well, with that movie, very unique and thought-provoking, it would probably be called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind 6, just to screw with us.

Or... ."GroundHog Day IIT"

[going places]

My life movie was Steven Kings "The Shining"... .

The movie took place over 1 winter.

Mine?

Over 25 years

[valet]

Wouldn't you just rather get the truth told to you?

This is frustration with the community.

We are all disturbed in our own way from our relationships, of course, but I often see more hate than empathy.

In the early stages it's hard to have empathy for someone who abused and violated you.

It's part of the grief and healing process.

People have to be allowed this process.

Some people will never be the same (PTSD), and it's no fault of their own... .

It's a process, and each person has the right to that process... .

The members that can be trusted here do a great job empathizing. Who we are we aiming this hate at though?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but to imply (1) only empathizing members are trust worthy, is wrong, and unkind and (2) back to the process... .everyone will have an anger portion of the process and each individual should be allowed this step. To critisize a person or belittle a person because they are in the anger process, is unkind at the VERY least... .

Are we aiming it ourselves, or at the foreign concepts that we have built to believe in things?

Part of the process IS to be angry w/ self.

"How could I be so stupid, blind, gullible, fooled, etc."

I am not sure what you mean by 'foreign concepts'?

The 'hate, anger, etc' is pointed at the offender, clearly... .

Again, part of the process everyone will go thru. And should be allowed, to go thru.

going places, you're hitting the nail right on the head here.

I seem to be in this crisis right now where caring is so much more difficult than not caring. This has manifested itself in a variety of ways, but the one that concerns me the most is just how much I have been lashing out. I never did this before.

Reading my post history, I have been unkind. This is out of character for me, which is partly why I made the thread. I have been behaving in ways that I don't necessary see as moral, correct, or understanding.

As the attachment with my ex grows smaller, more things are unearthed in me. Things that I previously had blamed my ex for are becoming more obviously centered around my own doubts, insecurities, and fears. The anger that I am experiencing has nothing to do with the situation, and everything to do with me, specifically how I've learned to cope.

I am not afraid of anything inside of me, I think. My main struggle is finding these things, however. Finding reasons for them, or accepting that maybe there are no reasons for some things. In the past few weeks, the best I can say I've felt is unstable, volatile, and not myself. This is my first experience of these emotions thus far in my healing that I haven't been able to explain or reason with.

It appears that I am in the spotlight right now, as all of my distractions and logical reasons for things get pushed into the background. There is work to be done here, I just don't know where to start.

[Infared]

I'm not sure I understand the thread title... .? So I'm finding it hard to follow. Do you mean get told the truth by the pwBPD?

The thread title is a bit misleading. Let me elaborate upon it.

The human psyche frustrates me. The fact that we have to 'process' things to accept them seems kind of like, and this is the best way that I know how to say it, a big, fat waste of time. Of course, by saying this I am denying my own basic traits as a human being, and that is not a healthy view.

I find myself angry with the time that we need to recover from a relationship like this, or any kind of loss. I think a big hurdle in my own healing has become the 'concept' of healing itself. When I ask the question in the thread title, I'm questioning the stages of grief that we encounter. Why are they necessary? What is the point? Why has the human brain developed in a way that naturally puts it at a disadvantage sometimes?

What I really mean to ask is, more generally, 'Wouldn't you just rather accept everything instantaneously and move on?'

My answer would undoubtedly be yes, but it is not possible. That's the dissonance that I need to accept right now.

I do not always deeply grieve at loss.  Right after my ex left me... .My Mom got sick and over the period of one year she slowly got  worse and died.   My Mom was not a warm fuzzy (do not want to get into all of the FOO issues right here... I am trying to simplify my comment on point), and I learned in a self help group that sometimes if I change it opens the door for the other person to change.  So I connected with my Mom... told her I loved her (something never said in my household, ever)... .and guess what... we connected on a new warmer level... it was like I introduced the concept to her or something.  Crazy right... .? Anyway... .my point is I spent a lot of time with my Mom during that year... .as I was alone and in pain from the abrupt, hurtful ending of my relationship with BPD... .I had the time.  

When my Mom passed away... .I was totally at peace. Like connected to the universe and just accepting. Like I knew some kind of secret or something.  I was a little sad... but I just felt peace and love.  

Now how it that the complete opposite of the gawdawful pain I felt from the ending (discard of me), with my BPD... . I think if the connection is good we do not have to experience deep pain at loss.  Of course with my Mom, it was also an natural, expected loss... .she was in her 80's and it was her time... .there was no abrupt break off... .but I also know that it had something to do with how I was interacting with her at her passing.

[disillusionedandsore]

Normal loss with acceptance, peace and closure vs. traumatic loss with rejection betrayal and abandonment?

[disillusionedandsore]

I think the other bit that comes to mind for me is the devaluing element,  if it was a valid criticism say I think perhaps it might not hurt so much... E. G. If I was actually out to get him,  spite him etc. ... But when I was actually busy supporting him, vouching for him,  being kind he treated me like the enemy and I knew I didn't deserve that. I was punished for my kindness in effect... Wrong way round... .

[fromheeltoheal]

I think the other bit that comes to mind for me is the devaluing element,  if it was a valid criticism say I think perhaps it might not hurt so much... E. G. If I was actually out to get him,  spite him etc. ... But when I was actually busy supporting him, vouching for him,  being kind he treated me like the enemy and I knew I didn't deserve that. I was punished for my kindness in effect... Wrong way round... .

Yes, when a borderline, someone who has attached to us at the deepest level, then devalues us it cuts to the very core of who we are.  It's mental illness, not civil discourse, and a borderline's just doing it to survive, but that situation sets up major questioning, self doubt and upheaval that takes a while to unravel and restructure.  If it ain't broke don't fix it, but if it gets broken, what an opportunity to rebuild with new wisdom; keep the good, out with the bad.

[disillusionedandsore]

Out with the bad! Very good.  I often think the process of recovering from this relationship is analogous to building a jigsaw based on the picture on the box,  struggling to make all the pieces fit until you realise the picture on the box is of another jigsaw puzzle,  the pieces you have make up another picture entirely... .You're amazed that at times you seemed to have had any sense of accomplishment and hope at all,  given the two were mismatched,  but you did,  you remember it and you wonder at your own optimism,  tenacity,  determination and ultimately your own foolishness for persisting even when things were very wrong! 

[fromheeltoheal]

Out with the bad! Very good.  I often think the process of recovering from this relationship is analogous to building a jigsaw based on the picture on the box,  struggling to make all the pieces fit until you realise the picture on the box is of another jigsaw puzzle,  the pieces you have make up another picture entirely... .You're amazed that at times you seemed to have had any sense of accomplishment and hope at all,  given the two were mismatched,  but you did,  you remember it and you wonder at your own optimism,  tenacity,  determination and ultimately your own foolishness for persisting even when things were very wrong! 

Yes, that optimism, tenacity and determination are amazing human traits, and look what we've built with them, and one good thing about shaking everything up once in a while is we get to construct a wiser, better version of ourselves from the pieces.  Questioning the things we take for granted is a good thing now and then.

[Mutt]

The anger that I am experiencing has nothing to do with the situation, and everything to do with me, specifically how I've learned to cope.

Hi valet,

Are you angry at yourself?

[Madison66]

Another fantastic thread! I can tell you that I was equally angry during the second half of the 3+ year r/s as I was after the b/u. And, being nineteen months out I have a different interpretation of those feelings today. I was definitely angry at my ex for her behavior and abuse, and now I understand equally angry at myself for not living my true self. I was a classic people pleaser and no one forced me to be that way. I was also dealing with emotional abuse that eventually turned physical. My anger grew and she saw it. The feelings of anger and frustration led me to flee the r/s in the end. Then, I internally wore that anger as a "coat of arms" to protect me from allowing her back in my life. The tough part was not allowing her to see that anger or really any emotion from me when she's attempt to break n/c.

Like other posters here have said, I'll never allow myself to go down that path again and I'll never allow my ex gf to be in my life again. While I understand pw PDs don't always have control of their behaviors in the same way nons do, I also look at it very black and white after the abuse I allowed myself to endure. PD or people just acting like a-holes - I will not allow them in my inner circle of friends and loved ones. Understanding why I was so angry during and after the r/s led me wisely to this point.

[dobie]

I think the other bit that comes to mind for me is the devaluing element,  if it was a valid criticism say I think perhaps it might not hurt so much... E. G. If I was actually out to get him,  spite him etc. ... But when I was actually busy supporting him, vouching for him,  being kind he treated me like the enemy and I knew I didn't deserve that. I was punished for my kindness in effect... Wrong way round... .

Yes, when a borderline, someone who has attached to us at the deepest level, then devalues us it cuts to the very core of who we are.  It's mental illness, not civil discourse, and a borderline's just doing it to survive, but that situation sets up major questioning, self doubt and upheaval that takes a while to unravel and restructure.  If it ain't broke don't fix it, but if it gets broken, what an opportunity to rebuild with new wisdom; keep the good, out with the bad.

I thankfully always kept some level of emotional detachment from her I can't imagine the hell of people who fell really deeply in love .

I have issues with emotional intimacy she was perfect she could love me while i stayed detached and basked in the idealised glow of her disorder .

[valet]

The anger that I am experiencing has nothing to do with the situation, and everything to do with me, specifically how I've learned to cope.

Hi valet,

Are you angry at yourself?

This is where things get interesting for me. I'm actually not sure.

I don't feel angry at myself per se, but I do feel angry sometimes, and I can't seem to pin down exactly what the object of my anger is.

I am not too angry with my ex, nor am I with friends, family, the 'situation', etc.

So, what it is that I am, exactly?

I mean, the only explanation would be myself, no? But it doesn't feel that way.

[Mutt]

The anger that I am experiencing has nothing to do with the situation, and everything to do with me, specifically how I've learned to cope.

Hi valet,

Are you angry at yourself?

This is where things get interesting for me. I'm actually not sure.

I don't feel angry at myself per se, but I do feel angry sometimes, and I can't seem to pin down exactly what the object of my anger is.

I am not too angry with my ex, nor am I with friends, family, the 'situation', etc.

So, what it is that I am, exactly?

I mean, the only explanation would be myself, no? But it doesn't feel that way.

It could be anger to insulate pain.

Do you think it could be irrational anger?

Is it perhaps fear of something that you don't understand that's triggering the anger?

Are you working with a T?

[valet]

The anger that I am experiencing has nothing to do with the situation, and everything to do with me, specifically how I've learned to cope.

Hi valet,

Are you angry at yourself?

This is where things get interesting for me. I'm actually not sure.

I don't feel angry at myself per se, but I do feel angry sometimes, and I can't seem to pin down exactly what the object of my anger is.

I am not too angry with my ex, nor am I with friends, family, the 'situation', etc.

So, what it is that I am, exactly?

I mean, the only explanation would be myself, no? But it doesn't feel that way.

It could be anger to insulate pain.

Do you think it could be irrational anger?

Is it perhaps fear of something that you don't understand that's triggering the anger?

Are you working with a T?

Hey Mutt, I think that those are all possible reasons.

It could also be because I'm going through a huge social adjustment period right now.

I am not currently working with a T. In about a month I will I have the resources to do so. It is my first priority.

And to re-word my original point, it almost feels as if I am dysregulated right now. Very unstable mood at times, difficulty sleeping, having been self-medicating, etc. These are not new things to me, which is why I am actually making a serious inquiry as to what causes me to act this way, but I have never also felt this far out of balance. Concerning, yes, but the last few days re-appearing here has kind of quelled my indifference and I am evening out again.

I've been kind of exploring the MoodGym program, but I haven't been consistent in my use of it. I think that I would benefit more from a real human being.

Do you have any other resources that might be of use to me until I can get my situation sorted out?

[disillusionedandsore]

May I butt in here? Valet just an idea but can you beat a pillow,  yell,  kick or punch an object,  holler out your pain,  even if you don't understand it? Do something physical with it (body based) rather than cognitively processing it if you know what I mean... .

Sometimes I feel angry about everything,  the outcome of this past relationship,  where I find myself now,  the things I remember telling myself during the relationship,  recalling my many attempts at negotiation and the cringe-worthy walking on eggshells and pandering... .Hey I can find lots to be angry about... What I have found difficult is getting the anger out  so I can move on... . 

[valet]

May I butt in here? Valet just an idea but can you beat a pillow,  yell,  kick or punch an object,  holler out your pain,  even if you don't understand it? Do something physical with it (body based) rather than cognitively processing it if you know what I mean... .

Sometimes I feel angry about everything,  the outcome of this past relationship,  where I find myself now,  the things I remember telling myself during the relationship,  recalling my many attempts at negotiation and the cringe-worthy walking on eggshells and pandering... .Hey I can find lots to be angry about... What I have found difficult is getting the anger out  so I can move on... . 

Hey there, I'd love do be able to follow that suggestion, but my anger has not been violent. It seems sadistic, resentful, and seething. It is not anger in a typical sense, and I'm not sure how to explain it.

It might be fear based, to be honest. The fear of trusting my ex again enough to attempt to build a new friendship with her. Whenever we meet or talk there is absolutely no trust. Our conversations are boring; they are not fun. This, of course, is a 50/50 kind of thing.

There are quite a few things that I want to say to her. Not bad things, just things that I feel the need to say before I could ever trust her again. And yes, I will admit that this might be a masked desire to get back to the idealization state that I existed in before. But now that I think about it, I would rather just be 'a friend', in the most pure sense.

I guess that this will have to be something that I initiate though. That's kind of how it happened after the split. The friendship was partially already discussed as being reliant on me setting it's boundaries. So, am I afraid of taking control like that?

I think so. But why? There has to be a childhood precedent that explains it.

[disillusionedandsore]

So you are still in contact? How did ye end?  Have you tried to write a letter you don't intend to send,  to get your feelings out?  Bottling up feelings whether it is fear or hurt,  hurts us more... .Writing is a good way to 'hear' ourselves,  explore feelings... .and make connections to the past...  

[valet]

We're in fairly low contact. We only communicate when we want to meet up. The last time that happened was about... .2.5 weeks ago?

Ended amicably, sort of. There were some minor things said out of pain and anger, but it has mostly been a pretty alright separation. It was a case of 'I've just lost my feelings and I don't know why'. I've accepted that, but there are still lots of residual trust issues on both sides, I would say. I think that both of us want a friendship, but it's hard to tell, as neither me nor her are open about most things when we meet.

Honestly, I'd love to be able to talk to her about anything. My views on the disorder, obviously, would be completely off limits unless she were to mention something about it to me. As far as I know, she has no knowledge of it and in my estimation she will never seek therapy.

I don't think that I ever placed my 'full' trust in her, because I was so pre-occupied soothing her during the honeymoon, and so pre-occupied trying to figure out what I was doing wrong during devaluation. I know that pattern now, and I know how to deal with it. I don't want her back.

I've done a lot of writing about my feelings thus far, and I talk quite a bit about them to my close friends. I would like to say that I don't bottle many things, if any at all.

[Infared]

We're in fairly low contact. We only communicate when we want to meet up. The last time that happened was about... .2.5 weeks ago?

Ended amicably, sort of. There were some minor things said out of pain and anger, but it has mostly been a pretty alright separation. I think that both of us want a friendship, but it's hard to say, as neither me nor her are open about most things when we meet.

I've done a lot of writing about my feelings thus far, and I talk quite a bit about them to my close friends. I would like to say that I don't bottle many things, if any at all.

I had to make a painful decision. Mine was doing drive-byes, walking up to me alone in public... .all-the-while, living with another guy and never taking any responsibility or admitting she cheated. NOTHING. ... .and she was expecting me to be the same caring, loving guy that I always was.  As much as it hurt... .when I saw what was showing up... ."I" had to cut it clean. With my actions.  She had said she needed a clean break.  ... .but we know that anything that comes out of the mouth of a BPD is next to "of no value".   So... .I cut it.  There was just nothing there for me but lies, lies by omission and abuse.  I had to love me... .as much as I never wanted that to be the plan.   Tough stuff. 

[disillusionedandsore]

Well good for you!   I may have taken you up wrong,  I'm sorry.  Because you said you didn't know if you were angry at yourself and maybe it was fear... .And looking for tools in the absence if therapy, I guess I assumed you were having difficulty accessing and making sense of your feelings.  I have times where Im not sure what I'm feeling and consciously doing something with them,  i.e.  Getting physical when angered etc helps me get underneath them to deeper feelings... that would be outside my awareness without this deliberate,  if you like, feeling work... .

I did this in therapy and was surprised how many feelings I uncovered... .that's more what I mean by bottling things up... .No harm intended

[valet]

We're in fairly low contact. We only communicate when we want to meet up. The last time that happened was about... .2.5 weeks ago?

Ended amicably, sort of. There were some minor things said out of pain and anger, but it has mostly been a pretty alright separation. I think that both of us want a friendship, but it's hard to say, as neither me nor her are open about most things when we meet.

I've done a lot of writing about my feelings thus far, and I talk quite a bit about them to my close friends. I would like to say that I don't bottle many things, if any at all.

I had to make a painful decision. Mine was doing drive-byes, walking up to me alone in public... .all-the-while, living with another guy and never taking any responsibility or admitting she cheated. NOTHING. ... .and she was expecting me to be the same caring, loving guy that I always was.  As much as it hurt... .when I saw what was showing up... ."I" had to cut it clean. With my actions.  She had said she needed a clean break.  ... .but we know that anything that comes out of the mouth of a BPD is next to "of no value".   So... .I cut it.  There was just nothing there for me but lies, lies by omission and abuse.  I had to love me... .as much as I never wanted that to be the plan.   Tough stuff.  

Hey Infared, that sounds terrible. I'm sorry that you had to endure that kind of pain.

I have a close friend that went through a similar situation. His ex cheated on him for last half year of their relationship, broke up with him, kicked him out of the house that he renovated (basically on his own), and now is living with the same guy in the house that my friend put years of his life into making a home out of. And to boot, she slept with the new guy for the two months in their bed before my friend could find a new place. And now, even, she is coming up to him in public with affection, like she never did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, he won't consider that his ex was disordered. I've told him that it might be an option, but he never really did the research.

Luckily for me, my ex was never that vicious or heartless. She hasn't 'stalked' me, per se, but I have seen her sitting near my flat with friends. She has never tried to approach me in public without arranging it first.

I can't say that she physically cheated on me, but she did emotionally with a good friend of hers that was absolutely unknowledgeable that I would consider her or his behavior out of line. Either way, I have let that go. I've been in plenty of ambiguous half-relationship situations where I've been seeing other people while my 'partner' was too. Those are things that I've put behind me. I was much younger and much less considerate of other people's feelings. Those experiences, however, make me able to let cheating go a little bit easier, if it happened in the first place. Water under the bridge. People make mistakes. But that is only my philosophy. I'm glad that you had the courage to do what was best for yourself.

[Sunfl0wer]

Excuse me for chiming in late, however, I have strong feelings about people trusting their instincts, and thought I'd mention one thing... .

It might be fear based, to be honest. The fear of trusting my ex again enough to attempt to build a new friendship with her. Whenever we meet or talk there is absolutely no trust. Our conversations are boring; they are not fun. This, of course, is a 50/50 kind of thing.

There are quite a few things that I want to say to her. Not bad things, just things that I feel the need to say before I could ever trust her again. And yes, I will admit that this might be a masked desire to get back to the idealization state that I existed in before. But now that I think about it, I would rather just be 'a friend', in the most pure sense.

I also heard another mention in here where you mention wanting to trust her.  Somehow, I felt you were disappointed with yourself for not trusting?  Am I hearing this correctly?

Is this an issue where you want something (to trust her) But are having an internal struggle because another part of you inside is telling you that you shouldn't?  Therefore you are frustrated, due to having to decide which part of yourself to tune out and "ignore" just a bit to achieve a desire?

Does this make any sense?

[valet]

Well good for you!   I may have taken you up wrong,  I'm sorry.  Because you said you didn't know if you were angry at yourself and maybe it was fear... .And looking for tools in the absence if therapy, I guess I assumed you were having difficulty accessing and making sense of your feelings.  I have times where Im not sure what I'm feeling and consciously doing something with them,  i.e.  Getting physical when angered etc helps me get underneath them to deeper feelings... that would be outside my awareness without this deliberate,  if you like, feeling work... .

I did this in therapy and was surprised how many feelings I uncovered... .that's more what I mean by bottling things up... .No harm intended

Thank you!

I would like to say that I am very self-aware, especially regarding my feelings. I've been able to pinpoint and figure out a lot of things thus far, which is why I am so confused regarding this new surge of anger/incidents of lashing out.

There is more there, I just don't know what it is. I can't reasonably chalk it all up to just having a 'few bad days', or whatever. There are reasons, there have to be. Whether or not they are consequences of things that happened long ago, or just a result of my inevitable change in environment (I'm moving back to the States from Europe in a month; two of my roommates that I was closest to have left in the past few weeks) is something that I'll have to figure out.

[going places]

 

I have a close friend that went through a similar situation.

His ex cheated on him for last half year of their relationship, broke up with him, kicked him out of the house that he renovated (basically on his own), and now is living with the same guy in the house that my friend put years of his life into making a home out of.

And to boot, she slept with the new guy for the two months in their bed before my friend could find a new place.

And now, even, she is coming up to him in public with affection, like she never did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, he won't consider that his ex was disordered.

I've told him that it might be an option, but he never really did the research.

Some people are just evil.

Maybe all his mind can wrap around is the fact that her actions are evil... .destructive, period.

I don't know if every evil person is disordered or every disordered person is evil.

At the end of the day, her actions proved her heart, was black, and she was void of Real Love.

I don't know if that makes her evil or disordered? Or both... .

[healingheart13]

I know that the person is disordered... .but they harmed me terribly emotionally... .I am talking serious emotional damage. I am angry about it. I was deceived, betrayed and abandoned and then acted out on repeatedly in a abusive attacking manner by someone that I deeply cared for. It did a number on me.  I was a trusting moral guy... that experience turned me on my head.  I may never trust again.  I am pissed about it. I have empathy for the person that treated me that way... .

I think that there is truth to the observations that we were angry at ourselves, too. I have been able to forgive myself for making that choice, as the signs were there in the beginning if I looked closely, but I ignored them and dove in head-first anyway.

Detaching from a BPD is brutal... .isn't it?

The Detaching from a BPD is brutal... .this the the part I am struggling with?  My ex didn't was really only causing chaos and turmoil and drama... .we were together 4.5 years... .there were great memories and when he was loving there is no other place I'd rather be. But the bad times certainly out weighed the good times.  I'm a single mom with 2 children and he added so much extra stress to my already stressful life... .why does it hurt so bad?  Why isn't is plain and simple to leave when it is so dysfunctional?  This is the part I don't understand within my self... .especially after the last 6 months... .cheating, physical abuse and turning his back on my during a time I've needed him the most in my entire life.  I understand we need to work on ourselves during this time... .but why do I want and miss someone who only damaged me?/

[valet]

I have a close friend that went through a similar situation.

His ex cheated on him for last half year of their relationship, broke up with him, kicked him out of the house that he renovated (basically on his own), and now is living with the same guy in the house that my friend put years of his life into making a home out of.

And to boot, she slept with the new guy for the two months in their bed before my friend could find a new place.

And now, even, she is coming up to him in public with affection, like she never did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, he won't consider that his ex was disordered.

I've told him that it might be an option, but he never really did the research.

Some people are just evil.

Maybe all his mind can wrap around is the fact that her actions are evil... .destructive, period.

I don't know if every evil person is disordered or every disordered person is evil.

At the end of the day, her actions proved her heart, was black, and she was void of Real Love.

I don't know if that makes her evil or disordered? Or both... .

I don't know how he feels about her at the moment. He doesn't talk about it anymore. I think he's probably pretty alright with things.

Besides that, I'd like to dispute your point that some people are 'just evil', or have 'black hearts'.

This is black and white thinking.

Yes, we can avoid people based on their behavioral patterns, but I think that we should always reserve judgment. People with disorders aren't just 'disordered'. They exhibit marked behavioral patterns that qualify them into a more specific label, so to speak. These labels are dangerous if given too much freedom, but they are also a great tool for recovery in the initial stages of emotional devastation, before someone has the time and space available to see their situation more objectively.

I don't think that a person's recovery can be complete until they go far beyond the 'this person is evil and I'm going to avoid them' mentality. What behaviors did they exhibit that we didn't agree with, and why? What behaviors did we accept, and why? Why did we accept destructive behaviors that are against our own desires in a partner? These are the questions that need answering before we are prepared to make better decisions for ourselves.

Granted, this takes a load of time to get through, and I have unlimited amounts of empathy for any person that goes through an experience like this. Everyone finds their own way eventually.

[going places]

There are "black and white" things in the world.

You need air to breathe, or you die.

You need blood to live, or you die.

You cannot walk on water, no matter how hard you try.

As a Believer, and Follower of Jesus Christ, there are a lot of very 'black and white' things in Scripture.

There IS evil in the world. Scripture is chalked full of verses to tell us what 'it' looks like and how to 'avoid' it.

I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV, but I am sure of this: Scripture has spelled out what "Love" is, and what "Evil" is.

It's not about 'behaviors we don't agree with'. It's not like 'we broke up' because he chewed with his mouth open... .or forgot to cap the tooth paste.

Men and women who are abused, gas lit, circle talked, traumatized to the point that their physical brain is altered and PTSD is what they are left with... .it's not about 'what behaviors did we accept' it was about THAT was life... .beaten down emotionally and mentally to the brink of destruction... .

You make it sound so 'simple' When it's NOT.

So yes this may be "black and white" but there is "black and white" in the world.

I have an open mind... .just not so open my brain falls out.

[valet]

Excuse me for chiming in late, however, I have strong feelings about people trusting their instincts, and thought I'd mention one thing... .

It might be fear based, to be honest. The fear of trusting my ex again enough to attempt to build a new friendship with her. Whenever we meet or talk there is absolutely no trust. Our conversations are boring; they are not fun. This, of course, is a 50/50 kind of thing.

There are quite a few things that I want to say to her. Not bad things, just things that I feel the need to say before I could ever trust her again. And yes, I will admit that this might be a masked desire to get back to the idealization state that I existed in before. But now that I think about it, I would rather just be 'a friend', in the most pure sense.

I also heard another mention in here where you mention wanting to trust her.  Somehow, I felt you were disappointed with yourself for not trusting?  Am I hearing this correctly?

Is this an issue where you want something (to trust her) But are having an internal struggle because another part of you inside is telling you that you shouldn't?  Therefore you are frustrated, due to having to decide which part of yourself to tune out and "ignore" just a bit to achieve a desire?

Does this make any sense?

Sunflower, this is exactly what I think that most of the current internal conflict centers around. The past few days I've been kicking this around in my head. The other day, in a conversation with a close friend, I said that it was 'sad that I couldn't tell her what I was telling [him (my friend)]'.

I know rationally that I don't 'need' to trust her, but I want to be able to. She is an important person in my life, someone that I would like to be a part of it moving forward.

Besides this, I never trusted my parents, at least not before my father died. So in essence, I never trusted my father, and by extension, my parental unit when it was still whole. I need to learn this skill. I am not good at trusting people, which ironically has led me to curate a group of pretty amazing friends, but there are still some holes there.

I think that learning to re-trust my ex could be a massive step forward for me, at least as far as being able to trust my own judgements. When I look into my future, I can see myself going to her for advice; I can see her at my 'wedding'; I can see her playing with my kids. I can see her being 'part of the family', so to speak, no matter how unusual that might seem to the outside perspective.

Whether or not this is delusional is up for interpretation, but in an odd way, it doesn't seem like such a difficult or far-fetched thing to consider. Again, I won't be the only one making the decisions here, but I have to be able to trust her before any of this is possible.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think that learning to re-trust my ex could be a massive step forward for me, at least as far as being able to trust my own judgements.

Do you see the possibility that this may be a contradiction?

For trust... .  We first need to trust ourself.

I am hearing, however, it sounds as if there is part of you that doesn't trust her, therefore you are quieting your own intuition about this?

Do you feel that there are areas that you do not trust yourself well?  If not, how so?

[valet]

I think that learning to re-trust my ex could be a massive step forward for me, at least as far as being able to trust my own judgements.

Do you see the possibility that this may be a contradiction?

For trust... . We first need to trust ourself.

I am hearing, however, it sounds as if there is part of you that doesn't trust her, therefore you are quieting your own intuition about this?

Do you feel that there are areas that you do not trust yourself well?  If not, how so?

Yes, I definitely see the possibility that there is a contradiction there.

I think the central confusion here is that this is not the same kind of trust. I'm talking about trust outside of a romantic context. I do not want a romantic relationship with her. I will choose someone else for that, a person that is more mood stable.

I think, really, to be quite frank, when we were 'just friends' I trusted her in a very sincere and honest way. She was probably the first friend that I fully trusted, now that I think about it. This is why, in my estimation, that I went against my own instincts and began a physical relationship with her.

It wasn't until the physical romantic relationship began that my trust began to wane. I believe that if I had fully trusted her (or maybe trusted myself, instead) for the duration of the romantic relationship it would have ended, much, much sooner. Outside of that context, however, she is a great friend.

To answer your third question (and this is possibly the most important one), I do have difficulties trusting people in very emotionally intimate relationships. This is something that I have been working on in the last year with family and close friends. It has opened me up in a new way, and I feel that I am more trusting of myself than I ever have been after having put myself outside of that comfort zone.

Maybe it's an ego trip, but I am willing to make mistakes, and even more willing to take measures in correcting those mistakes. If trying to trust my ex is one of those mistakes, I will realize it and correct it. The thing is, I won't ever know unless I try. That has to be the central internal turmoil, as far as I can see.

[Mutt]

Do you have any other resources that might be of use to me until I can get my situation sorted out?

Yes we do.

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

[Skip]

I don't think that a person's recovery can be complete until they go far beyond the 'this person is evil and I'm going to avoid them' mentality. What behaviors did they exhibit that we didn't agree with, and why? What behaviors did we accept, and why? Why did we accept destructive behaviors that are against our own desires in a partner? These are the questions that need answering before we are prepared to make better decisions for ourselves.

Many of the people who stop at this point go on to have new troubled relationships.  Why? I think because this is more of the same low emotional IQ thinking that plagued the relationship.

A relationship is not one event- it is thousands of transactions that we have with the other person. If the net sum of those transactions has some serious problems we have to look at both sides of the transactions.

So, for an analogy, lets say you have a doubles tennis team (you and your partner play others).  Suddenly, your team is losing matches. Do you blame it on the partner and get another one?  Is  that the answer - it's them?

~ You partnered with someone of your skill level.  You saw that.  They saw that.  Better people didn't select you. You didn't select weaker partners. You played together, interacted on every ball hit your way for years.

Maybe you are a better server now then they are.  But you are still pretty well matched (in the same range) and its very likely you are contributing to the loses, too.

[Infared]

We're in fairly low contact. We only communicate when we want to meet up. The last time that happened was about... .2.5 weeks ago?

Ended amicably, sort of. There were some minor things said out of pain and anger, but it has mostly been a pretty alright separation. I think that both of us want a friendship, but it's hard to say, as neither me nor her are open about most things when we meet.

I've done a lot of writing about my feelings thus far, and I talk quite a bit about them to my close friends. I would like to say that I don't bottle many things, if any at all.

I had to make a painful decision. Mine was doing drive-byes, walking up to me alone in public... .all-the-while, living with another guy and never taking any responsibility or admitting she cheated. NOTHING. ... .and she was expecting me to be the same caring, loving guy that I always was.  As much as it hurt... .when I saw what was showing up... ."I" had to cut it clean. With my actions.  She had said she needed a clean break.  ... .but we know that anything that comes out of the mouth of a BPD is next to "of no value".   So... .I cut it.  There was just nothing there for me but lies, lies by omission and abuse.  I had to love me... .as much as I never wanted that to be the plan.   Tough stuff.  

Hey Infared, that sounds terrible. I'm sorry that you had to endure that kind of pain.

I have a close friend that went through a similar situation. His ex cheated on him for last half year of their relationship, broke up with him, kicked him out of the house that he renovated (basically on his own), and now is living with the same guy in the house that my friend put years of his life into making a home out of. And to boot, she slept with the new guy for the two months in their bed before my friend could find a new place. And now, even, she is coming up to him in public with affection, like she never did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, he won't consider that his ex was disordered. I've told him that it might be an option, but he never really did the research.

Luckily for me, my ex was never that vicious or heartless. She hasn't 'stalked' me, per se, but I have seen her sitting near my flat with friends. She has never tried to approach me in public without arranging it first.

I can't say that she physically cheated on me, but she did emotionally with a good friend of hers that was absolutely unknowledgeable that I would consider her or his behavior out of line. Either way, I have let that go. I've been in plenty of ambiguous half-relationship situations where I've been seeing other people while my 'partner' was too. Those are things that I've put behind me. I was much younger and much less considerate of other people's feelings. Those experiences, however, make me able to let cheating go a little bit easier, if it happened in the first place. Water under the bridge. People make mistakes. But that is only my philosophy. I'm glad that you had the courage to do what was best for yourself.

... but like you... .I still carry anger about how I was treated. Unlike your friend, I can see the mental illness... .

Hypothetical:

My ex is like... .she just killed my mother and she wants to go out and get ice cream with me... .and show me how SHE was the victim?  It's really like that. It's a pretty easy decision to not be anywhere near that person, I can't help fix it either as she sees nothing wrong... .but it's still painful to make that decision to completely detach to protect yourself and to not be angry at the loss of your mother, right?

If you have built up a life over years with this person and you are presented with this utter malignancy... .it's pretty hard not to end up with some outright or maybe in your case, residual anger.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .