Collaborative legal approach - any experience

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi.

I am looking into ending my marriage. I spoke with a divorce attorney who knows my family (our kids were in the same school). I explained about uBPDw and situation at home. She knows we have two young sons, 4 and 9. She recommended a collaborative legal approach to try to mediate a divorce agreement, using lawyers, counselors and financial advisers to mitigate the damage that can be done in this type of situation.

I am the financial provider for the family, and my wife is a stay at home mom trying to start her own business (again). We have been hovering in varying levels of marginally functional to dysfunctional. I still primarily post on the Staying board, but I am wanting to understand my options and what things might look like if we were to separate. Collaborative negotiated agreements are legally binding in my state, and there are attorneys who specialize in this approach. Just wondering what sorts of experiences people may have had with this approach. I know with BPD, it's a crap shoot, but nothing is binding unless all parties agree to it.

Appreciate some advice.

[takingandsending]

Hi.

I am looking into ending my marriage. I spoke with a divorce attorney who knows my family (our kids were in the same school). I explained about uBPDw and situation at home. She knows we have two young sons, 4 and 9. She recommended a collaborative legal approach to try to mediate a divorce agreement, using lawyers, counselors and financial advisers to mitigate the damage that can be done in this type of situation.

I am the financial provider for the family, and my wife is a stay at home mom trying to start her own business (again). We have been hovering in varying levels of marginally functional to dysfunctional. I still primarily post on the Staying board, but I am wanting to understand my options and what things might look like if we were to separate. Collaborative negotiated agreements are legally binding in my state, and there are attorneys who specialize in this approach. Just wondering what sorts of experiences people may have had with this approach. I know with BPD, it's a crap shoot, but nothing is binding unless all parties agree to it.

Appreciate some advice.

[livednlearned]

Hi talkingandsending,

Bill Eddy writes a bit about collaborative divorce in Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse (if I am remembering correctly). To even consider a collaborative divorce, it's good to put some thought into the degree of severity in your wife's BPD. Eddy says there are three types of PDs:

generally cooperative

not cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, dangerous

He also writes that not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities (HCPs), although all HCPs have a personality disorder, recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have a target of blame (you).

If your wife is not a high-conflict personality, and is generally cooperative, a collaborative divorce might work. Collaborative divorce is designed to minimize the conflict and in an ideal divorce (if there is such a thing), both parties want the divorce, have the same goals, and want to minimize both the conflict and the cost. All good.

The problem with collaborative divorces is that both attorneys are contractually bound to not litigate. That means that if you and your wife cannot agree to terms, and need a judge to rule on what is fair, then you have to start with two entirely new lawyers. And at that point, you have played all your cards and have very little bargaining power left. It can be very costly to do this because you would have to retain not one but two lawyers, with the second basically trying to clean up the trainwreck that occurred during the first attempt.

Many of the people on this board are in high-conflict divorces with high-conflict people, and in our cases, an assertive approach was best. We stood to get better arrangements from a judge than trying to mediate with our ex spouses.

How do you think your wife would be in a divorce situation? What type of custody arrangement would you seek? What kind of relationship do the kids have with her?

[takingandsending]

Hi LnL.

I would say that my wife is generally functional. As far as blame, I would say that she vacillates between self-hatred and attributing the blame for unhappiness in our marriage on me. For the last several years, she has complained about how she is moving in a different, healing direction, and that I don't embrace any of her new found tools for changing our paradigm or acknowledge her determination and efforts to make money and change her life around. I am responsible for the lack of connection, intimacy and caring in our relationship. So, yes, I am generally the repository for all responsibility of unhappiness in the marriage, kind of typical BPD projection and push/pull. We have generally been able to come together on finances and our children, although I have had to step in to protect my S9 who gets verbal abuse and negativity from his mom in regular doses.

I think divorce would trigger a lot of emotional backlash in her, to be certain. I am not certain that she would become highly aggressive/malicious and attempt to ruin me. It's possible but not really in keeping with her general personality. I met her when she had separated from her former husband 18 years ago. She certainly painted him black, but not in a vicious way. Of course, they really had little assets and no children to worry about. In general, they're divorce was amicable.

I would want 50% custody. It would be very hard on the kids if it were otherwise. The state I live in leans toward 50% custody, even in cases where fathers have been jobless, mostly homeless and emotionally unstable - have seen this first hand with a friend of ours. I would like 50% custody with rights for determination on schools, doctors, etc., but I am not certain that I will get that last bit.

As far as my sons' relationship with their mom, S4 adores her and wants to marry her. He loves her very much, so I wouldn't want to mess that up (even though it pains me to see him care take so early on). S9 is painted black more frequently. He loves his mom, but has a lot of conflicting emotions with her, acts out, gets trampled frequently, and actively tries to antagonize her when she rejects him. It's a pretty dynamic love/hate thing they both have. He shows traits of BPD, although it's still awfully early to tell anything. The kids mostly have to meet mom on her terms. She is not good at nor interested in being part of their world on their terms.

My wife is a cross between the Queen and Waif type BPD, leaning more to the Queen.

[livednlearned]

It's a good idea to read Splitting before you do anything -- Bill Eddy is a former social worker who became a lawyer and recognized that the high-conflict cases he was seeing in family law court typically involved one or more people with personality disorders. So he understands BPD, and he understands family law court. If you don't want to download the book to your computer, this is also a good article (based on Eddy's work) about taking an assertive approach: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

This might help you think through whether your wife is likely to engage in a pattern of blame: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271911.msg12580077#msg12580077

Divorce is stressful even when there are no PDs involved. There are psychological and emotional stages to divorce that tend to influence the legal process: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271676.msg12577883#msg12577883

You might want to also read Lessons 5 and 6 on the Coparenting board. It's common for BPD parents to engage in parental alienation (including parentification and adultification), and there are a lot of resources about raising emotionally resilient kids and helping them deal with parental alienation (and you, too).

It's good that you're in a 50/50 state -- it sounds like you want to ask for primary legal custody (or, in some states, the parents share legal custody, but one parent has decision-making or tie-breaker status, and in other states one parent will be given residential status to make sure the kids stay in the same school.

[ForeverDad]

A waif-queen mix?  I worry that the Queen will take over once the lines are drawn in the sand and divorce starts.

An indicator might be what she has either contemplated or threatened in the past.  Has she said she's going to get custody or you won't see your children again except when she allows or even disappear?  That's what my ex threatened and in the divorce there was absolutely no reasoning with her.

If you take the path to a regular divorce, wouldn't the next step after the initial temporary order be mediation anyway?  So if you think you can work it out, could it be worked out there?  (Frankly, mediation seldom works early in the case, not until much later such as just before a major hearing or trial.  Most are just too entitled and not listening early in the case.)

I would want 50% custody. It would be very hard on the kids if it were otherwise. The state I live in leans toward 50% custody, even in cases where fathers have been jobless, mostly homeless and emotionally unstable - have seen this first hand with a friend of ours. I would like 50% custody with rights for determination on schools, doctors, etc., but I am not certain that I will get that last bit.

My wife is a cross between the Queen and Waif type BPD, leaning more to the Queen.

Beware of asking for only 50%.  Why?  Imagine a mother insisting on having 99% parenting and a father asking for 50%. Would the judge be inclined to split the difference and assign the father the historical father's role of alternate weekends?  Sure, 50% is a real possibility in your state but how emotionally compelling will she be trying to get more?  Would she pose as target, victim or disadvantaged?

Rights for determination on schools is Residential Parent.

Rights for major custodial decisions, if joint custody, would be (1) tie-breaker or (2) decision-making.

[HopefulDad]

My BPDxw has always treated me lesser than her as a parent to our children.  We've tried mediation (non-binding) and have had success on many of the children's issues, but when she digs her heels in, she will not budge.  So we're about to go to court over one issue.  Collaborative approach would have no chance.

There's a joke in some movie where one friend asks another, "Who makes the decisions in your household?"  And the reply was:

"Oh, I make the majority of the decisions, except when she doesn't agree.  Fortunately, we agree on over 80% on things so it works out great."

If your ex is like this, your collaborative approach will only work on the 80% of the things you see eye to eye on.  If she doesn't know how to compromise, that's when it will fall apart.

[takingandsending]

A waif-queen mix?  I worry that the Queen will take over once the lines are drawn in the sand and divorce starts.

An indicator might be what she has either contemplated or threatened in the past.  Has she said she's going to get custody or you won't see your children again except when she allows or even disappear?  That's what my ex threatened and in the divorce there was absolutely no reasoning with her.

Hi ForeverDad.

I worry about that, too. It seems possible that the Queen attitude could take over. I will say that my wife talks about not wanting the kids to come from a broken family. Whether this would spur her to retributive aggression if I ask for a divorce, or that she would try to keep it as supportive for the kids as possible, I don't know. I haven't talked with her about divorce. I am trying to see what it would look like, how much spousal support I would likely have to pay her and what our ensuing separate financial resources would mean for my sons.

She has never threatened to take the kids away or anything like that because we have not really discussed separating. As I mentioned, we generally can reach agreements about things with the kids, but it may very well be the case that it is the "80% of the time" type of agreement. I know that vaccinations, restrictive screen time and restrictive food selection are areas that we do not and never reach agreements. Thinking with this lens, the custody discussions would likely get pretty unpleasant.

I will talk to our MC (who informed me that wife had BPD) and get some input of what her experience would indicate.

It's too bad, though. Collaboration would allow us to see just how things would look before signing on, instead of trying to work it out in court and live with the results.

[ForeverDad]

I will say that my wife talks about not wanting the kids to come from a broken family.

Living in a calm and stable home will give them a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  So many of us felt we had to stay in a marriage no matter what but sometimes, in cases like ours, that's just not the right thing to do.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  You don't have to feel guilty about ending the dysfunction.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that is - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

[takingandsending]

Great quote, ForeverDad.

I don't feel guilty. It hit me when my wife was away for 8 days and I was with the kids getting them through the final week of school and such not. We had such an easy, happy week, the boys were thriving and happy, and we didn't hit the every day speed bumps at dinner and bed time that are the norm. It really allowed me to see the BPD footprint in our lives, and it isn't trivial, even though my wife and I are mostly "functional".

[HopefulDad]

Great quote, ForeverDad.

I don't feel guilty. It hit me when my wife was away for 8 days and I was with the kids getting them through the final week of school and such not. We had such an easy, happy week, the boys were thriving and happy, and we didn't hit the every day speed bumps at dinner and bed time that are the norm. It really allowed me to see the BPD footprint in our lives, and it isn't trivial, even though my wife and I are mostly "functional".

Your kids will notice the different dynamic living with you vs. her.  My kids did.  While there are a lot of pros to "staying for the sake of the kids", I've found that there might be even more pros to "leaving for the sake of the kids".  I think most in here fall in the latter category.

[livednlearned]

While there are a lot of pros to "staying for the sake of the kids", I've found that there might be even more pros to "leaving for the sake of the kids". 

I think this is particularly true for kids who have a similar genetic predisposition, what some call a "sensitive genotype." My son is like this, and the invalidating home environment was particularly toxic for him. While the divorce and custody situation was no walk in the park, having a calm home where he could regroup went a long way to helping him cope.

Some days I wonder what he would be like if we stayed. I think he would display BPD behaviors like cutting as a way to deal with the pain  :'(

The way things are now, he gets 360 degree validation, which he desperately needs.

[takingandsending]

Hi LnL

My S9 is definitely sensitive ... .temperamental, has difficulty articulating or identifying what emotion he is feeling, projects out, and is an angel with people that he does not know. His mom does invalidate him and by BPD necessity often paints him black. It was really toxic 2 years ago, but finding this website has helped me to know that I have to intervene and also how to validate both BPDw and S9. Things have gotten better. But ... .

Given that it was a short sample size of a week in January and a week in June that my wife was away, I was struck how much more appreciation and love I felt for my sons when it was just the three of us. Just not having to divide my attention to my wife as well as them, and not to placate her competing with them for that attention, was such a relief.

If I were really honest, I wish that I could get full custody or at least 66% of the time. My T has wondered if my wife would grow overwhelmed with having the kids on her own 50% of the time and would gradually let them go. I really don't know. My hunch is she would find a replacement fairly quickly, as she is not one to be on her own for long.

[livednlearned]

I read the Highly Sensitive Child and found it described S13. www.hsperson.com/books/the-highly-sensitive-child/

[pxs]

Hello TakingAndSending,

I'm in a similar boat as you. After collecting hard evidence of infedility, I've decided its time to divorce. I've talked to a Collaborative Lawyer and he suggests go that route. He is also familiar with BPD (his wife is a therapist), and has divorced couples where one or the other were BPD. He said in his case, what he's found are: Collaborative works if both parties want the same thing: To that end you have to get your wife to want what you want. Easier said than done. He said if you can get your wife to the collaborative table then generally the process works. Recapping the hard things are getting her to want what you want, getting her to the table.

I'm  exploring all options, and looking to see which route to go.

We have one son between us (now 4) and she has an older son from a previous marriage, who has since moved on.

In a moment of anger I let her know I knew about the infedility about a month ago. We had family obligations for nearly a month after that, and we agreed to remain civil for that time and to keep everything under wraps. That has worked. In the meantime we've managed to talk quite frequently and quite candidly on occasion. Her main thread has always been she doesn't have time to do the things she wants to do (which mostly means going to concerts until 2 am). At 47 after raising her now 21 year old, and now her 4 year old I can somewhat empathize. This is the angle I've been using when talking with her. Including letting her know if she gets custody, I will have the free time to socialize, even though I don't want it, and she will be tied for another 14 years. At times, quite frequently, she seems to be warming up to the idea of split custody, where she gets alimony, moves out, but comes here to take care of our son, until I come back from work. This gives her time with our son and freedom.

However, at other times she quite strongly resists the idea of divorce.

I have no idea what she is really thinking.

I don't know if what I'm doing is working, but I am trying to get her to want what I think she wants, which is also what I want. We'll see. I will say this: As much as possible, I've come from a place of love, and as much as possible I discuss feelings vs facts. Ie how she'll feel going to the show, vs how she'll feel being forced to watch the house.

Again, I don't know how this will play out, but coming from love and working on feelings seems so far to get us the best results.

Good luck, I'll keep you posted

[takingandsending]

Hey pxs. Thanks for sharing your story. Yes, that would be the goal with a pwBPD - when my wife is on board, things move smoothly and easily. Not certain she would ever be on board with this. I am also dealing with recent betrayal, but she cheated by spending a ton of money because 3 sales people basically seduced her with what she was desperate to hear. She spent a year of S9's school tuition on face cream, but she has been spending more and more on her self care despite SET and agreements worked out. I am transferring paycheck into accounts that I am opening. Basically I feel better when she is gone and she feels empty with me. There seems little benefit to continuing, but there is harm for the kids and me and even her by staying together. I know collaborative divorce makes use of professional therapists as well as lawyers, which gives some benefit in ending RS with someone with mental illness, but LnL is right - it could all be a wash and start over. Have to learn much more before proceeding.

[livednlearned]

I think pxs's point is really important -- to minimize the conflict and keep in mind the emotional limitations that people with BPD experience. It's probably more realistic to do this with BPD sufferers who are generally cooperative, or not cooperative/not dangerous. When someone is dangerous, the tactic is to focus on protection first and foremost.

Another option, in terms of helping you minimize the conflict, is to find a really, really, really good mediator. Someone who has worked with personality disorders and has some training. Many mediators are former lawyers and they might be ok, but lack the understand necessary to facilitate a high-conflict mediation. I watched Bill Eddy in a simulated mediation with a high-conflict couple and it was very realistic -- he managed to make sure both sides felt heard and used his skills to minimize conflict and focus on solutions. Using a skilled mediator and working with a lawyer who understands collaborative law, but is not contractually doing a collaborative law divorce might be a workable compromise. That way, if your wife insists on something you know is not good for the kids, and the two of you hit a road block, you can always go to court.

I think Eddy has a handful of New Ways for Families programs operating throughout the US. If there isn't one in your court system, maybe he knows of mediators in your area who are trained in his techniques. His website: www.highconflictinstitute.com

It's important in the negotiation process that a lawyer can say (more likely to your wife, but perhaps to you as well) "This is a very good offer, better than what you would get from a judge. Going to court would be an expensive way to get an agreement that is not as favorable as this."

An assertive approach to divorce can sometimes feel aggressive to those of us who have codependent or conflict-avoidant traits. We feel more guilt when we assert even sensible boundaries. Assertive is not the same as aggressive -- there are lawyers who are most definitely aggressive, and they care about winning at all costs, without concern for the conflict their approach generates.

It's good to understand your own state of mind going into divorce -- we sometimes sabotage ourselves because we're in the FOG (fear obligation guilt). We just put up some new lessons on this board that might be useful:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239547.msg1331659#msg1331659

[HopefulDad]

While there are a lot of pros to "staying for the sake of the kids", I've found that there might be even more pros to "leaving for the sake of the kids". 

I think this is particularly true for kids who have a similar genetic predisposition, what some call a "sensitive genotype." My son is like this, and the invalidating home environment was particularly toxic for him. While the divorce and custody situation was no walk in the park, having a calm home where he could regroup went a long way to helping him cope.

Some days I wonder what he would be like if we stayed. I think he would display BPD behaviors like cutting as a way to deal with the pain  :'(

The way things are now, he gets 360 degree validation, which he desperately needs.

My oldest, D10, fits this as well.  Having the "normal" household gives her a much needed healthy perspective on what a parent/child relationship should be.  And the separate households has created an unintended bonus of my BPDxw behaving better around our children, almost as if she knows there is a stark contrast in our temperaments and she's watching herself either out of "competition" to "win over the children" or to avoid losing a custody argument in court down the road.

The kids aren't dumb, though.  Even with the improvement in my BPDxw's behavior, they still refer to my place as "where things are fair" and the ex's place as "too strict".  And this description first came from my D8 who is one of the most mature, level-headed, empathetic, able-to-see-all-sides-of-an-issue person (let alone child) I know.  Giving children a healthy household benefits all of them, not just the sensitive ones.

[takingandsending]

It's good to understand your own state of mind going into divorce -- we sometimes sabotage ourselves because we're in the FOG (fear obligation guilt).

It's interesting. I feel that I have stepped out of the FOG in our relationship. I don't feel obligated to help my wife feel better about things, am able to enforce boundaries for my own health and the kids' health, provide some validation but don't really react to her upsets anymore, don't JADE, etc. But, when it comes to ending our marriage and trying on that suit of clothes, it's almost as if there is a whole new FOG that arises. I would think this would be the case in any relationship, not necessarily just because of BPD. I guess what I am saying is that I recognize the disordered thinking well enough in my wife to not get drawn into it, but emotionally, the thought of ending things still brings feelings of grief, fear, obligation and guilt.

[livednlearned]

It's good to understand your own state of mind going into divorce -- we sometimes sabotage ourselves because we're in the FOG (fear obligation guilt).

It's interesting. I feel that I have stepped out of the FOG in our relationship. I don't feel obligated to help my wife feel better about things, am able to enforce boundaries for my own health and the kids' health, provide some validation but don't really react to her upsets anymore, don't JADE, etc. But, when it comes to ending our marriage and trying on that suit of clothes, it's almost as if there is a whole new FOG that arises. I would think this would be the case in any relationship, not necessarily just because of BPD. I guess what I am saying is that I recognize the disordered thinking well enough in my wife to not get drawn into it, but emotionally, the thought of ending things still brings feelings of grief, fear, obligation and guilt.

Maybe this article on the psychological stages of divorce is helpful? It helped me understand that there are common stages that everyone goes through, including what you describe (a new kind of FOG). Committing to an action as big as divorce is a huge step that upsets the status quo, even if the status quo is one you wish to leave behind.

I fled my marriage, literally. And still, there were many emotional and psychological aspects that lingered and changed and evolved as I adjusted to divorcing and being divorced. The legal process alone can be very baffling -- I don't know why, but my heart would pound when I saw those fat envelopes sitting in my mailbox from my lawyer, even though I knew what was in them, even though I had read drafts by email in advance. The language can be so adversarial and seeing things in print, knowing that much of it will become legally binding, does not exactly center people.

What happens during divorce is that the legal part starts to make things feel very intense. Meanwhile, a bunch of strangers have front row seats to some of the most intimate and personal details of your life. Your ex has a mental illness that makes her high-conflict even in the best of times, and now she has the same feelings you do, times a thousand.

My lawyer had to save me from myself on many occasions. As I saw my ex dysregulate, and knew how much conflict was coming my way, I wanted to make it all go away. You have to watch for those emotions and begin to transfer the lessons you learned to the divorce process -- asserting to boundaries being among the most important. Wisemind too. Let yourself grieve the end of this marriage. It never became what you dreamed it would be, and there are kids involved who will be hurt no matter how careful both parents are to protect them.

^^^^^^^^^

This is why it's good to have a therapist in the wings while you divorce. It's a big deal what we go through when we end a marriage.   

[Godslove]

Hi

I hired collaborative law group. Two lawyers working for me. I did not know they are not bound to litigation until I read this post. On my initial meeting, I understood that meditations do not work, we will go to court.

[takingandsending]

My understanding with the collaborative approach is that agreements reached are legally binding, but if no agreement can be reached, then you would either: a) restart the collaborative process with new mediators, or b) hire a new lawyer (cannot be the same as collaborative team member) and file through traditional means (in essence losing the time and money invested in the collaborative process). So, unless the collaborative team have specific experience working with pwBPD in this setting, the odds are reduced for mediation being effective. Even with a good team in place, it still will be dependent on the behaviors of your pwBPD under stress/duress - maybe that being the best indicator of how divorce proceedings are likely to go.