Unravelling already (1)

[Depression = 72% of members]

Verbena - I don't think you are crazy at all for suggesting that.  Actually, when I logically sit down and evaluate my situation, I sometimes wonder how many more red flags are even possible.  Personally, I don't fee; wife is capable of serious bodily harm, but given what I have witnessed, I certainly need to consider that a possibility. 

Kate - my wife's mother killed herself by smoking herself to death.  COPD.  I think her mom eventually alienated herself from everyone, including her own daughters, could not keep a job, wound up homeless and living in a shelter, and one day just stopped breathing. 

[maxsterling]

Verbena - I don't think you are crazy at all for suggesting that.  Actually, when I logically sit down and evaluate my situation, I sometimes wonder how many more red flags are even possible.  Personally, I don't fee; wife is capable of serious bodily harm, but given what I have witnessed, I certainly need to consider that a possibility. 

Kate - my wife's mother killed herself by smoking herself to death.  COPD.  I think her mom eventually alienated herself from everyone, including her own daughters, could not keep a job, wound up homeless and living in a shelter, and one day just stopped breathing. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

Oh, thanks Max for setting my mind at ease about your wife's mother. For some reason I thought she was incarcerated and then committed suicide. Whew.

How about pepper spray? A "dog person" advised me to carry that when walking in areas with dangerous dogs. They say it can be purchased easily at sporting goods stores and doesn't cause injury. Does stop or slow down attacks.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Max,

Verbena - I don't think you are crazy at all for suggesting that.  Actually, when I logically sit down and evaluate my situation, I sometimes wonder how many more red flags are even possible. 

In my opinion, if I'm even considering something along the lines of a taser or pepper spray in order to protect myself from my partner (or a live-in, be it whomever), perhaps it's already gotten to the point that we shouldn't be living together.

What do you think, Max?  Under what circumstances would you be willing to use something like this?  And then what?  What if she were to use a taser or pepper spray on you?

[sweetheart]

Ooohh Tasers and Pepper Spray as ways to deal with dysregulations within a relationship sound like a step too far for me.

Have we forgotten we are dealing with a mentally ill person, where having a comprehensive Safety Plan in place in my experience has been enough to deal with the worst excesses of my dBPDh's behaviour ?

[Verbena]

Max, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult here.  You say you don't think your wife is capable of serious bodily harm?  She's proven to you time and again she is not afraid to physically attack you.  You were bruised and had pain from it.  That's not serious?  

Ok, so she didn't put you in the hospital, but she certainly could the next time.  Or she could kill you.  You've said you don't keep guns in the house.  There are knives in the kitchen?  A hammer in the garage?  A metal nail file in the bathroom?  

To say you don't THINK she's capable but need to consider the possibility

that she IS capable seems contradictory to me.  Either she is or she isn't.  I realize you can't know exactly what could happen.  That's why I suggested what I did.  

Please watch your back and keep us posted.  

[Verbena]

123Phoebe and Sweetheart,

I completely agree that to consider using a taser or pepper spray is drastic, but if Max is going to continue living with his wife with all the red flags waving around at the moment, then I think he needs to be prepared for another physical assault. 

He is in an unsafe situation.  Short of serving his OOP immediately and having her removed from his home, he is at risk and needs to protect himself. 

[Cat Familiar]

I was in denial that my first husband could have killed me during one of his dysregulations. Like you, Max, I was only left black and blue and once with a black eye, which he didn't intend to inflict but did accidentally. He preferred that my damages weren't visible to the public.

I think about the times he knocked me to the floor and punched me in the stomach. Even though he may have intended to inflict minor damage, he could have killed me on several occasions. He attacked me in the bathroom, where I could have hit my head on the counter or the tub as I fell to the floor. He could have broken a rib when he punched me, which could have punctured a lung. When he grabbed me by the throat, he could have strangled me if he had held on longer.

You have been hit by your wife more than once. She has denied hitting you and has never acknowledged her role nor apologized.

It could very well happen again. I'm sorry to harp on this, but you really seem to be in denial that anything bad could happen. I hope that's true, but given your wife's history, it seems likely that she might physically assault you again and I hope you're not caught unaware.

[Daniell85]

I think Max is present to his situation. Obviously he is there with his wife and knows her better than any of us here.

[Skip]

Verbena - I don't think you are crazy at all for suggesting that.  Actually, when I logically sit down and evaluate my situation, I sometimes wonder how many more red flags are even possible.  Personally, I don't fee; wife is capable of serious bodily harm, but given what I have witnessed, I certainly need to consider that a possibility.  

Kate - my wife's mother killed herself by smoking herself to death.  COPD.  I think her mom eventually alienated herself from everyone, including her own daughters, could not keep a job, wound up homeless and living in a shelter, and one day just stopped breathing.  

It probably needs to be mentioned that if you taser your wife you will likely make the 6 o'clock news and the DA will incarcerate you and the neighborhood kids will be warned to stay away from you. Any weapon you purchase and use in a domestic conflict will seen as a premeditated assault.

bpdfamily.com does not recommend this. The legal penalties are high. The possibility the weapons will be used on you are high. The possibility that the other party will escalate are high.

Max', if you think there is a reasonable possibility of serious bodily harm, you have to plan your permanent departure.

The idea of a safety plan is deescalate reason but escalated tensions or escape them if that fails.  Once your domestic situation moves beyond the control of a safety plan, what do you have left?

If you wife starts to escalate, how to you defuse the situation?  What are the signs that you that you are not in a situation that can be defused and how do you do next?

This needs to be clear and drilled.  You don't want to wait until emotions rise.

How to you defuse the situation?  

What are the signs that you that you are not in a situation that can be defused?

What do you do next?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRv0hXOVC0

[Cat Familiar]

Max', if you think there is a reasonable possibility of serious bodily harm, you have to plan your permanent departure.

The idea of a safety plan is deescalate reason but escalated tensions or escape them if that fails.  Once your domestic situation moves beyond the control of a safety plan, what do you have left?

If you wife starts to escalate, how to you defuse the situation?  What are the signs that you that you are not in a situation that can be defused and how do you do next?

This needs to be clear and drilled.  You don't want to wait until emotions rise.

How to you defuse the situation?  

What are the signs that you that you are not in a situation that can be defused?

What do you do next?

We nons take on so much responsibility and we often feel strong enough to cope with anything.

Those who have never experienced domestic violence often wonder why we would continue to endure such a thing or put ourselves in a position where it could happen.

But we think we are able to deal with whatever will happen. What we don't know is how we will react when our survival is at stake and that primitive part of the brain takes over our executive function.

Although I had taken self defense and martial arts classes, I never fought back when my first husband physically attacked me. But the last time he did, something in me snapped and I slept with a knife in my hand. I was ready to defend myself to the death if he came at me in my sleep. That marked the end of my marriage and I could not think of myself as a passive individual any longer. I thank my lucky stars that I didn't have to use that knife and end up on the six o'clock news.

So, please be alert for danger and keep yourself safe. Even if you try to deflect a blow, you could potentially injure your wife and law enforcement tends to side with women.

[waverider]

As a non in a relationship we can over estimate own level of control in stressful situations. This is because our measure of control is bench marked against a pwBPD.

We may be better at retaining control, but that is still only relative. Things can escalate very quickly to a level were our own animal reactions overtake our normal centered state.

Simply pushing someone away who is intent on attacking you can cause a serious accident as adrenaline causes us to push too hard so they fall and hit their head. It happens before you have time to thing.

Repeated assaults can actually escalate quicker as it becomes established as a "go to' action for an abusive person. Hence our ability to nip them in the bud diminishes. Add to this our tolerance to them can cause us to snap quicker.

[maxsterling]

Last night she said she had so much anxiety.  She asked me what she should do.  I did my best to step away from answering that.  The anxiety was over the same old things - job starting, what to wear, what to eat, etc.  She got frustrated and short over laundry.  I asked her how the anxiety feels to her, and how it affects her body.  She said she tenses up all over and feels like rage.  She said she felt like she had too much to do and thought about cancelling P and T.  I suggested that those are two people that can help with anxiety, so she should put those at top priority.

This morning was more of the same.  Extreme anxiety, did not want to get out of bed, extra needy, didn't feel like doing anything.  I validated and said that all people have anxiety when starting a new job.  She said hers must be worse than most people's, and asked if I thought there was something wrong with her.

And just now she called, said her day went okay, and that she still feels really anxious, and that she cancelled P tomorrow so that she has more free time.  Considering while she was away she was taking her friend's Xanax and narcotics, I am very worried about her cancelling P.

[waverider]

Considering while she was away she was taking her friend's Xanax and narcotics, I am very worried about her cancelling P.

Could that be the reason why? Avoiding accountability. I know when my wife (still getting used to saying that) has not played by the rules she is more likely to cancel Drs and counselling appointments. Afraid of disaproval

[maxsterling]

Well, someone predicted it.  Last night I wound up helping her with her classroom, mainly because I promised I would a few days ago. I didn't want to back out of a promise.  I went with tons of anxiety that she may potentially be critical and blaming again.  It went better this time, but not perfect.  Afterwards, I was just tired.  She complained of being tired and stressed and full of anxiety. 

I awoke late to her touching me in a sexual way.  Yes, I felt sexually violated, and definitely not in the mood for sex.  Half asleep, I told her I was not in the mood and had to get ready for work.  Explosion.  I wound up enforcing boundaries when the conversation quickly became her screaming and refusing to let me talk.  I took a shower, with the door locked.  While in the shower, she banged and kicked on the door, I could hear her screaming and throwing things in the bedroom.

When I came out of the shower, I quickly went to put clothes on and leave.  She tried to grab at me, insisting that I stay and talk to her.  I requested that she not touch me.  She then completely broke down, begging me not to leave.   I stood firm on boundaries and in not tolerating abuse, accusations, blame.  She wound up calming some, and I wound up seeing her off to work.

[KateCat]

I wonder what might be the best way to keep this crisis from impacting children.

[Daniell85]

I think you should move out, too. Disengage.

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree that you have every right to be afraid of your wife attacking you physically, but I think if you had real fear of her, you'd leave. None of us know the situation as well as Max does. My BPDh has gotten physical in the past, he also showed little remorse later(at the time he did), and later he rewrote history about it. He even sort of wants to blame me. I think he can't, or won't face what he did. Seems like typical BPD to me. He's had moments of clarity, but they are brief, and he seems to not remember them later.

This is a mental illness, and I feel compassion for that. We have to put ourselves first, but if we choose to stay, we certainly need support more than anything. It's a hard choice to stay or leave.

[Verbena]

Max, I am assuming that the children haven't returned to school yet since you were helping with the classroom last night.   When do they start? 

[maxsterling]

Kate - what children do you mean, her students?  My feeling on that right now is that there is no way I can keep her behavior from impacting her students.  That's beyond my control.  About all I can do is trust a higher power and her co-workers and superiors for that.

One more thing from last night.  She knows I spent all day at work, then my evening helping her, plus last weekend working a second job.  It was around 8PM when we got home yesterday, we had leftovers for dinner, decided to watch TV and eat blueberries and whipped cream for dessert.  She got out the cream and started to make the whipped cream, following a recipe she has made recently.  She started mixing it, and it didn't cream up.  Turns out she did not follow the recipe exactly.  Of course, it was my fault, because I should have read the recipe and told her she was doing it wrong.  She broke down, stormed out of the kitchen, said she felt very depressed, and felt like she "wanted to d... ."   She caught herself and didn't complete her thought.  I asked her what she meant and she said "nevermind".  Then she talked about how stressed out she was, how depressed, how lonely, etc... .

[maxsterling]

Cerulean - yes, if I felt physically unsafe, I would leave.  I don't feel physically unsafe, but I feel emotionally unsafe.  In other words - being exposed to too much of this will put me in a mentally bad place that has the potential to affect me physically.

Verbena - Classes start next week.

[KateCat]

Kate - what children do you mean, her students?  My feeling on that right now is that there is no way I can keep her behavior from impacting her students.  That's beyond my control.  About all I can do is trust a higher power and her co-workers and superiors for that.

I guess I'm wondering whether any of your wife's doctors could be informed of what seems to be a crisis state your wife is in, and that she is set to begin classroom teaching next week.

[Notwendy]

Max, I was one who predicted that if your wife wants a baby, she could seduce you when you are asleep. You are a man, and the equipment can work, even if you are half asleep and not fully aware. I was one who stated that if you do not wish to be a father at the moment, that you need to consider this possibility and protect yourself. I think she is also capable of putting pin holes in your condoms.

Many people have posted their concerns for your well being. I don't want this to come off as a "beware of Ms Sterling" rally. Your posts are sometimes emotional for me to read because in many ways, your relationship reminds me of my parents. I do not think of my mother as a terrible person, but a person who is mentally ill.  At times I felt my father was in danger, but no matter what I said, this did not register with him. Either he didn't believe me, or I was wrong, or it didn't matter to him as he chose her comfort ( I say comfort, not always her better good- because enabling doesn't work that way) over everything else.

He chose appeasement  instead of facing his and her potential discomfort when upholding boundaries. I recognize this pattern because it is something I did as well, and am working on.

My father could not stand to see my mother upset. Because of this, if she basically wanted something, she got it. If he said no, she persisted in doing whatever it took to get it. My father's role in this is that, even if he said "no", he didn't uphold that boundary. Mom knew she could persist, and would even say " if you don't do this, I will cause a scene"- and those scenes were every bit as difficult as your wife's.

Reading your wedding threads, and your wife's wish to have a baby reminds me of how persistence and disregulation works for my mother. Some of the events during your wedding reminded me of when she was involved in mine. Well, Dad paid for it, which meant it was "her" wedding or else.

I don't know if your wife is a danger to you or not at this time, but what I do think is that, unless you can enforce boundaries now- whatever they are, it will only get harder to do so in the future, for every time you give in to something you are not on board about, you teach her that your boundaries don't mean anything,  and also tell yourself that you are not worth standing up for... .

[Verbena]

My father could not stand to see my mother upset. Because of this, if she basically wanted something, she got it. If he said no, she persisted in doing whatever it took to get it. My father's role in this is that, even if he said "no", he didn't uphold that boundary. Mom knew she could persist, and would even say " if you don't do this, I will cause a scene"- and those scenes were every bit as difficult as your wife's.

We've all seen toddlers throw fits in public and parent give in just to shut them up and avoid embarrassment.  Upholding boundaries with pwBPD is a lot like that.  If throwing a fit works for them, they will keep doing it.  

Max, she treated you awful when you helped her with her classroom a few days ago, but because you promised you would help her again---and didn't want her to say you broke your promise and potentially throw a fit about it--you agreed to do it again.  She treated you a little better the second time because she had some idea that she was pushing your boundaries, but she still go this message:  "I can act awful to Max and he will away from me, but it's only temporary. If I play my cards right I can still get him to do what I want."  

[Notwendy]

Verbena, you've got it. To not vilify my mother, ( or Max's wife,) she is a beautiful vivacious woman with the emotional maturity of a toddler. However, a toddler who always gets his or her way will become a behavioral nightmare. Toddlers will try this- it is absolutely normal for them to do this- but parents know that they need to address this kind of behavior right away and not let it get out of hand. They even know when and who to push the boundaries in, such as in public, where parents may not want to deal with a scene but at home parents would let them tantrum.

Now consider this in an adult with the autonomy of an adult in a relationship where this pattern works for them for years. I know that I was not able to understand this until I was much older and a parent myself.  I also realized I was creating a similar situation in my own relationship as this is the role model I had. I knew I didn't want to be like mom, but I didn't understand why it wasn't good to be like Dad either. He looked like the "good guy"- and he really was a wonderful man.

Could my mother have matured? Perhaps, if she was allowed to learn to deal with her discomfort, and learn how to handle frustration. However, giving in to her when she got upset didn't give her the opportunity to learn this.  I wanted my relationship to be different, and so the first task for me was learning how to say no when I meant no, and being able to withstand others not being happy with me at that moment. That was ( and still is) not easy for me, but I see how important it is.

It is hard to know the distinction between being a genuinely good guy and an enabler. Parents need to learn when it isn't in their children's best interest to give them what they want, even if it isn't easy to see their child angry and upset. As adults, we expect other adults to have gotten past this toddler stage, but some have not, even if they appear to be grown ups physically. Then, we have to address the behavior as it is.

My improved ability to hold on to my boundaries has led to a better relationship with both my mom and my H, as well as others.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .