Current status of things

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There are a couple other threads on here where the posters are dealing with someone in their r/s with lots of paranoia.

Rather than trying to post this in each of those threads... I'll just give an update on how things are in my r/s and how my current "tactics" seem to be working when  paranoia rears it's head.

Conflict is much much less in my r/s... .especially conflict that I participate in... .almost non-existent.

So... a couple days ago we had a great day together... .we are up much later than we should be and I'm laying with my head propped up on her as we are laying in bed... .getting ready to go to sleep.

I can tell there is some agitation... .I don't push... .but hold her hand.  Plus... I realize that I'm dead tired... .and that is    for me.

I say:  "I had a lot of fun with you today... ."  reality... .i felt like telling her I loved her and being over the top... .but that usually gets a "push back" reaction... when I "chase" too much.

She seemed to relax a bit and said... ."I'm not sure if I should get into it or not... ." (I have no idea... .but suspect there are icky feelings that need to come out... .)

me: "I can talk for a while... ."

her:  "You are a good man... .just the other day... .I thought I was falling in love with you again... "  (I just squeeze her hand)

her:  "I'm scared it will happen again... ." (in the past... .I would ask... ."what happen?"  which is a fastball that she would hit out of the park with accusations... )  I give another light squeeze...

her:  "I mean... .I just can't figure it out... .Can you really have not wanted to go on a vacation with me... .I mean... .look at that picture of what I looked like back then (we had found a picture of her in her 20s... .she is hot... .still is)... .or was there someone that would have been mad if you took your wife on vacation... .  (she believes that 16-17 years ago I didn't want to go to Disney with her and our kids... .) (I haven't faced this story in years... .)

me:  No hand squeeze... .sort of a  deep breath and a "hmmm"... . I let the moment sit for a while... .probably a minute or so ( in the past I would have jumped right on this)... .

me:  gosh... that was a long time ago... .I'm always suspicious of my memories of so far back... .but I never went on vacations like that growing up.  Now that I've gone on so many wonderful vacations like that with you... .it seems silly that I would have ever given off the vibe that I didn't want to go... .

(notice... .I don't definitively answer anything... .no hard lines... .I give off a "vibe" that I did't know what I was getting into with an unknown vacation... .and then put emphasis on the good ones we have had.  

I leave this information like "silly putty"... .she can make it into whatever she wants... (not much risk of invalidation)... .with a nudge towards "the good side".

me:  "I'm fascinated at how wise God was to put us together.  You have helped me grow and mature... ."  (I feel this way... .and since she mentioned "I was a good man... ."... .this is a compliment to her "skills".  

Back to letting things be silent... .let her process.

her:  "Yeah... .I had some silly notions back then... ." (note:  The old me would have agreed... .and pointed out she had silly notions now... .that never worked out well for me to point that out... .  )

letting there be more silence... .

I could tell her tenseness had gone down... .I was tired... .I kinda patted her shoulder... gave her a little peck and said I was bone tired... .and needed to sleep.

Haven't referenced the conversation since then... .(I used to bring up weird questions she asked... ."for clarification"... .again... .bad strategy... .at least for me)

I have tried to be a better "active" validater... .and that is frustrating for me.  When I try to guess her emotions... .that seems to go badly... .when I ask about them she seems to feel interrogated.

I'm not giving up the active validation thing... .but I only try it when I am "fresh" rested and on top of my game.

I hope this helps to show where I am at... .and hopefully my "tactics" can help others.  The big picture is that she has icky feelings... .worry... paranoia... .and I'm fine with being supportive as long as she is calm and not abusive to me.

I let her keep her feelings... .I support... .I don't "fix"... .

FF

[formflier]

There are a couple other threads on here where the posters are dealing with someone in their r/s with lots of paranoia.

Rather than trying to post this in each of those threads... I'll just give an update on how things are in my r/s and how my current "tactics" seem to be working when  paranoia rears it's head.

Conflict is much much less in my r/s... .especially conflict that I participate in... .almost non-existent.

So... a couple days ago we had a great day together... .we are up much later than we should be and I'm laying with my head propped up on her as we are laying in bed... .getting ready to go to sleep.

I can tell there is some agitation... .I don't push... .but hold her hand.  Plus... I realize that I'm dead tired... .and that is    for me.

I say:  "I had a lot of fun with you today... ."  reality... .i felt like telling her I loved her and being over the top... .but that usually gets a "push back" reaction... when I "chase" too much.

She seemed to relax a bit and said... ."I'm not sure if I should get into it or not... ." (I have no idea... .but suspect there are icky feelings that need to come out... .)

me: "I can talk for a while... ."

her:  "You are a good man... .just the other day... .I thought I was falling in love with you again... "  (I just squeeze her hand)

her:  "I'm scared it will happen again... ." (in the past... .I would ask... ."what happen?"  which is a fastball that she would hit out of the park with accusations... )  I give another light squeeze...

her:  "I mean... .I just can't figure it out... .Can you really have not wanted to go on a vacation with me... .I mean... .look at that picture of what I looked like back then (we had found a picture of her in her 20s... .she is hot... .still is)... .or was there someone that would have been mad if you took your wife on vacation... .  (she believes that 16-17 years ago I didn't want to go to Disney with her and our kids... .) (I haven't faced this story in years... .)

me:  No hand squeeze... .sort of a  deep breath and a "hmmm"... . I let the moment sit for a while... .probably a minute or so ( in the past I would have jumped right on this)... .

me:  gosh... that was a long time ago... .I'm always suspicious of my memories of so far back... .but I never went on vacations like that growing up.  Now that I've gone on so many wonderful vacations like that with you... .it seems silly that I would have ever given off the vibe that I didn't want to go... .

(notice... .I don't definitively answer anything... .no hard lines... .I give off a "vibe" that I did't know what I was getting into with an unknown vacation... .and then put emphasis on the good ones we have had.  

I leave this information like "silly putty"... .she can make it into whatever she wants... (not much risk of invalidation)... .with a nudge towards "the good side".

me:  "I'm fascinated at how wise God was to put us together.  You have helped me grow and mature... ."  (I feel this way... .and since she mentioned "I was a good man... ."... .this is a compliment to her "skills".  

Back to letting things be silent... .let her process.

her:  "Yeah... .I had some silly notions back then... ." (note:  The old me would have agreed... .and pointed out she had silly notions now... .that never worked out well for me to point that out... .  )

letting there be more silence... .

I could tell her tenseness had gone down... .I was tired... .I kinda patted her shoulder... gave her a little peck and said I was bone tired... .and needed to sleep.

Haven't referenced the conversation since then... .(I used to bring up weird questions she asked... ."for clarification"... .again... .bad strategy... .at least for me)

I have tried to be a better "active" validater... .and that is frustrating for me.  When I try to guess her emotions... .that seems to go badly... .when I ask about them she seems to feel interrogated.

I'm not giving up the active validation thing... .but I only try it when I am "fresh" rested and on top of my game.

I hope this helps to show where I am at... .and hopefully my "tactics" can help others.  The big picture is that she has icky feelings... .worry... paranoia... .and I'm fine with being supportive as long as she is calm and not abusive to me.

I let her keep her feelings... .I support... .I don't "fix"... .

FF

[Fian]

I must have missed some of your posts.  The last I heard you were upset that she did not honor her part of the agreement that you would go on vacation as a whole family.  How was that resolved?

[MaroonLiquid]

There are a couple other threads on here where the posters are dealing with someone in their r/s with lots of paranoia.

Rather than trying to post this in each of those threads... I'll just give an update on how things are in my r/s and how my current "tactics" seem to be working when  paranoia rears it's head.

Conflict is much much less in my r/s... .especially conflict that I participate in... .almost non-existent.

So... a couple days ago we had a great day together... .we are up much later than we should be and I'm laying with my head propped up on her as we are laying in bed... .getting ready to go to sleep.

I can tell there is some agitation... .I don't push... .but hold her hand.  Plus... I realize that I'm dead tired... .and that is    for me.

I say:  "I had a lot of fun with you today... ."  reality... .i felt like telling her I loved her and being over the top... .but that usually gets a "push back" reaction... when I "chase" too much.

She seemed to relax a bit and said... ."I'm not sure if I should get into it or not... ." (I have no idea... .but suspect there are icky feelings that need to come out... .)

me: "I can talk for a while... ."

her:  "You are a good man... .just the other day... .I thought I was falling in love with you again... "  (I just squeeze her hand)

her:  "I'm scared it will happen again... ." (in the past... .I would ask... ."what happen?"  which is a fastball that she would hit out of the park with accusations... )  I give another light squeeze...

her:  "I mean... .I just can't figure it out... .Can you really have not wanted to go on a vacation with me... .I mean... .look at that picture of what I looked like back then (we had found a picture of her in her 20s... .she is hot... .still is)... .or was there someone that would have been mad if you took your wife on vacation... .  (she believes that 16-17 years ago I didn't want to go to Disney with her and our kids... .) (I haven't faced this story in years... .)

me:  No hand squeeze... .sort of a  deep breath and a "hmmm"... . I let the moment sit for a while... .probably a minute or so ( in the past I would have jumped right on this)... .

me:  gosh... that was a long time ago... .I'm always suspicious of my memories of so far back... .but I never went on vacations like that growing up.  Now that I've gone on so many wonderful vacations like that with you... .it seems silly that I would have ever given off the vibe that I didn't want to go... .

(notice... .I don't definitively answer anything... .no hard lines... .I give off a "vibe" that I did't know what I was getting into with an unknown vacation... .and then put emphasis on the good ones we have had.  

I leave this information like "silly putty"... .she can make it into whatever she wants... (not much risk of invalidation)... .with a nudge towards "the good side".

me:  "I'm fascinated at how wise God was to put us together.  You have helped me grow and mature... ."  (I feel this way... .and since she mentioned "I was a good man... ."... .this is a compliment to her "skills".  

Back to letting things be silent... .let her process.

her:  "Yeah... .I had some silly notions back then... ." (note:  The old me would have agreed... .and pointed out she had silly notions now... .that never worked out well for me to point that out... .  )

letting there be more silence... .

I could tell her tenseness had gone down... .I was tired... .I kinda patted her shoulder... gave her a little peck and said I was bone tired... .and needed to sleep.

Haven't referenced the conversation since then... .(I used to bring up weird questions she asked... ."for clarification"... .again... .bad strategy... .at least for me)

I have tried to be a better "active" validater... .and that is frustrating for me.  When I try to guess her emotions... .that seems to go badly... .when I ask about them she seems to feel interrogated.

I'm not giving up the active validation thing... .but I only try it when I am "fresh" rested and on top of my game.

I hope this helps to show where I am at... .and hopefully my "tactics" can help others.  The big picture is that she has icky feelings... .worry... paranoia... .and I'm fine with being supportive as long as she is calm and not abusive to me.

I let her keep her feelings... .I support... .I don't "fix"... .

FF

I think this is great for people to read how to deal with those tough moments that can "go south" real quick... .

[rotiroti]

Quality post FF:

I think the most difficult part for me was:

I say:  "I had a lot of fun with you today... ."  reality... .i felt like telling her I loved her and being over the top... .but that usually gets a "push back" reaction... when I "chase" too much.

How do you refrain from going down the reality path? Especially after having a great day?

[formflier]

I must have missed some of your posts.  The last I heard you were upset that she did not honor her part of the agreement that you would go on vacation as a whole family.  How was that resolved?

Haven't been posting about my own stuff much lately... .I'll put another post out there about the "boundary" I put up against broken deals... .

Preview:  I think Grey Kitty would be proud... .no negotiating... .I took action... .had my family all to myself... . 

Tune in later... in different thread... for an update!  

FF

[formflier]

How do you refrain from going down the reality path? Especially after having a great day?

Experience... .

I "save" the over the top... .I love yous... .you are hot... .etc etc for the middle of the day... .

If I "blow it up"... .then I can go do other stuff... .I'm usually well rested... .I'm pretty confident in the tools and my boundaries... so if I feel like saying it then... .I do.

Late at nigh has always been problematic for me... .I have sleep disorders and it is hard for me to leave the room if she dysregs... .plus... .I'm tired... .and have reacted badly in the past.

FF

[formflier]

How do you refrain from going down the reality path? Especially after having a great day?

Plus... .they are my feelings of love... .I can enjoy them by myself... .pat myself on the back... .etc etc.

My feelings are my reality... .they may not be hers... . 

Over time I gave up the need to "convince" her of my reality... .

FF

[rotiroti]

Plus... .they are my feelings of love... .I can enjoy them by myself... .pat myself on the back... .etc etc.

My feelings are my reality... .they may not be hers... .

Wow... .I really like that! No one can take that away!

[formflier]

I must have missed some of your posts.  The last I heard you were upset that she did not honor her part of the agreement that you would go on vacation as a whole family.  How was that resolved?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281279.new#new

[KateCat]

Great results from some really mature, sensitive and patient work.

What do you think the near future looks like for your family, formflier? Could you maintain this level of sustained attention to your wife if the business world once more called you away? And could your wife resist her fears if you were once again surrounded by colleagues and public duties?

I'm just thinking that you've got situations of "triangulation" down to a bare minimum right now, and it's paying off well for the family.

[Ceruleanblue]

This was great to read. I'm hoping I can get to this point. The point where I don't pick up on any of his barbs. It's weird how pwBPD seem to never get over stuff, and bring it up years later. I wonder why they do that to the extent they do?

[formflier]

I wonder why they do that to the extent they do?

They seem to be affected by very strong "emotional memories"... .remembering a time when they had a strong (usually bad) emotion... .

Plus... .frustrating that their memories can change... .

It's like the tide of the ocean... .let it come and go... .and be aware it will come and go

FF

[turbo squash]

Once again FF, you contribute some very insightful and helpful information. Thanks for posting.

Getting the whole dialogue like that helps me to see how I could improve my own conversations with my wife.

[ptilda]

Interesting to read, although my situation is considerably different and there are things you said that I KNOW would have sent my uBPDh off the proverbial deep end:

me:  gosh... that was a long time ago... .I'm always suspicious of my memories of so far back... .but I never went on vacations like that growing up.  Now that I've gone on so many wonderful vacations like that with you... .it seems silly that I would have ever given off the vibe that I didn't want to go... .

First of all, he remembers/understands everything perfect well (his claim) until it benefits him not to remember/understand. Saying it was a long time ago would freak my husband out and convince him that I am just trying to make him forget about his hurt rather than addressing it.  And the word "silly" would be a huge trigger for him since he would have heard me calling him "silly."

Also, my husband's love language is NOT touch. In fact, he gets really uneasy with too much physical touching when he's deregulated. His love language is acts of kindness, but then when I do nice things for him he tends to get suspicious that I'm trying to manipulate him into doing something for me.

That being said, it's a good read to see how others learn to evaluate their BPSOs. I continue to say, we have to remember that each BP is a unique person and while they can share traits, they are not all going to act the same way.

[formflier]

 

Right... .every situation is unique... .and then you place them on a spectrum of BP behaviors and tools... .

If your husband claims that you are saying something you aren't... .

Let him know you value his opinion... .and if he is interested in your actual opinion... .you are willing to share... .

Then... .drop it... .

Unless he asks for it... and gives you space... .(no interrupting) to say it.

He doesn't get to know what you really think... unless he "behaves"...

If he wants to have his own opinions... .and not listen to yours... .that is his right.  You are under no obligation to listen to them... .but I recommend trying... .as long as not abusive.

The goal is not to say things in a way that they never dysreg... .

The goal is to say things "properly" (again... put the tools on the spectrum for your r/s)... .and let the chips fall where they may... .

FF

[ptilda]

Right... .every situation is unique... .and then you place them on a spectrum of BP behaviors and tools... .

If your husband claims that you are saying something you aren't... .

Let him know you value his opinion... .and if he is interested in your actual opinion... .you are willing to share... .

Then... .drop it... .

Unless he asks for it... and gives you space... .(no interrupting) to say it.

He doesn't get to know what you really think... unless he "behaves"...

If he wants to have his own opinions... .and not listen to yours... .that is his right.  You are under no obligation to listen to them... .but I recommend trying... .as long as not abusive.

The goal is not to say things in a way that they never dysreg... .

The goal is to say things "properly" (again... put the tools on the spectrum for your r/s)... .and let the chips fall where they may... .

FF

Again, this feels very vague to me. The question is should I respond at this point to his insistence that I tell him "ready for what?" That is, I said I'm available when he feels ready, and he demanded "ready for what?" multiple times.  Should I tell him I was referring to him feeling ready to share his opinion? Hurt? Concerns?

It just comes off to me like a whole lot of, "make sure you do it right" and "do good" without specifics. I'm a specifics kind of girl when it comes to advice, otherwise it's just frustrating and counterproductive to me.

[formflier]

Again, this feels very vague to me. 

Yes... .specifics can be triggering... .

Listen... .my goal is to give you some theory... .which is vague.  Then... you apply it to your situation... .

If your husband claims you need to tell him "ready for what... "... and you are cludo... .

Use... ."help me understand what you are speaking about... ."

The ball is in his court... if he doesn't say something useful... .it's over...   Don't chase the information... .

Be very nonchalant about being ready to listen... .when he is ready to speak... .

Hope this helps... .

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I think it is great that you avoided this hot topic at a time when you were tired. A discussion like this is not likely to go well under these circumstances.

However, you avoided this potential blow up by not directly answering your wife's question, giving a vague response, and then a distraction- discussing God. It's pretty hard to be upset at your husband while he is discussing God's wisdom to put the two of you together. However, that doesn't mean she isn't upset about this and still wonders from time to time.

Your wife may have BPD, but PBD or not, unfinished emotional business tends to lurk under the surface and then rear it's head from time to time. What your wife is concerned about is this:  was there someone that would have been mad if you took your wife on vacation.

This issue has come up also in her reading your e mails.

I don't definitively answer anything. This can work in the short run, if you are not in a situation to talk calmly and keep your head. Tired at night is a good time to do this. However, if this is putting off unfinished business, then that will creep into your intimate relationship until it is finished. How you do this, I don't know. Some counselors would not suggest revealing everything to a spouse and some would. I'm not accusing you- if your wife made it up, then it still is one of her fears. If not- even if nothing happened but there was someone, she may need to have her questions answered. This could be blocking her feelings for you.


You are a good man... .just the other day... .I thought I was falling in love with you again... " 

her:  "I'm scared it will happen again... ."

She is scared.

[formflier]

 

She knows my answer... .I have answered it... .proved it... .definitively... .many... .many times.

There is no "basis in fact" for her fears... .they are fears... .

My stance is that I have given my answer clearly... .and further asking is not going to get me to repeat.

She wants to express those feelings in a weird way... .sort of a half compliment... .half accusation... .that's her business.  It was not abusive... .and was not a direct accusation... .

It's up to her to clarify and get more specific... .definitely not up to me to correct or "fix" assumptions... .

If something came up that I have never heard of before... .very likely I would give her a clear definitive answer... .ONCE... .and then never speak of it again.

At least... these are my current tactics... .and seem to be working... .

FF

[formflier]

  then that will creep into your intimate relationship until it is finished. 

I used to think this way... .it's a very "non" way of thinking.

For two "normal" people... I would agree.

My wife used to have great fun (seemed like that to me)... .to keep moving the bar about what it would take to "finish" an issue... .which usually meant more interrogations... .

FF

[ptilda]

  then that will creep into your intimate relationship until it is finished. 

I used to think this way... .it's a very "non" way of thinking.

For two "normal" people... I would agree.

My wife used to have great fun (seemed like that to me)... .to keep moving the bar about what it would take to "finish" an issue... .which usually meant more interrogations... .

FF

Agreed. I'm looking forward to court (prelim hearing) for this very reason. Judge will ask him why he wants the divorce, and it's up to him to pick the things that matter. Based on what I know of him and our relationship, I'll be ready with evidence. Judge will see evidence and back me up (I hope) and as far as I'm concerned, that's his one and only chance to "finish" the issues. If he can't get past it from there, that's his own issue.

His history shows that the best way to deal is to leave him alone and not discuss these things. I do hope and pray that recovery will come to the point that we will be able to discuss these things. But if that doesn't come, then I have to resolve to continuing to say (to myself), "he has my answer, he just needs general reassurance now." As pointed out, she's scared. Mine is ashamed. These are the emotions that need to be addressed and worked through. The event is not the issue, the emotion is.

[Notwendy]

I understand what you are saying. It is aggravating to be accused of cheating when there is not any on my part, and no reason to think it. I sometimes also wonder if it is projection- not they they are cheating, but the projection that we nons are not being completely forthcoming since they are not themselves, about things in general. I don't think my H is cheating but he can give me vague answers to keep me from knowing something, so why would he believe that I am giving him a complete answer.

Which leaves me with some unfinished business. Another poster mentioned knowing how to look good while sometimes doing sneaky things. My mother is a better example. I would say she is ethical in general, she would not break the law, do something terrible, but as far as the smaller things, she is not forthcoming. Since she knows that, she assumes I am not either.

Like you, I have avoided discussions with her that are potentially inflammatory, however, managing the situation this way is a barrier to some extent to our relationship.

I think the not being forthcoming is a self protective mechanism. Keeps people in the dark, and also an avoidance of shame.

[formflier]

 

I agree... .long term avoidance is not good.

Every once in a while you have to stick you toes in the water... and see if the temp is changed.

Also... .I believe it matters if they bring new information to the table.

"Hey... I found this plane ticket stub... .was this when you went to visit the lady you married in the barn?"

I don't think it is avoidance to directly deal with the plane ticket stub... ."That was when I flew to xx to get my retirement physical done with dr strangelove... "

So... .I've not avoided dealing with the lady I "married" in the barn.  She has her answer... .she hasn't forgotten... .

There may be some time in the future when I choose to address it again... .but I doubt it.

FF

[KateCat]

I can see why most women would think there must be some little "somethin' somethin'," somewhere, at some time, in the marriage of the Formfliers, such that there is a core hurt of real unfinished romantic fidelity business. Somewhere. Somehow.

(Though I would more readily entertain the notion that it's Mrs. Formflier who might feel some lingering shame about something from the past.)

However, for addressing the pure mental illness aspect of these persistent accusations, formflier's work here is just outstanding. I haven't ever really seen anything as understanding and as generous as this approach. As someone who has received crazy accusations over many, many years, I can't for the life of me see anything like avoidance or invalidation here. I see a guy who has incredible stamina and love for his wife. And who--wonder of wonders--produces something of real value from this exchange:

was there someone that would have been mad if you took your wife on vacation... .[/b]  (she believes that 16-17 years ago I didn't want to go to Disney with her and our kids... .) (I haven't faced this story in years... .)

me:  No hand squeeze... .sort of a  deep breath and a "hmmm"... . I let the moment sit for a while... .probably a minute or so ( in the past I would have jumped right on this)... .

me:  gosh... that was a long time ago... .I'm always suspicious of my memories of so far back... .but I never went on vacations like that growing up.  Now that I've gone on so many wonderful vacations like that with you... .it seems silly that I would have ever given off the vibe that I didn't want to go... .

(notice... .I don't definitively answer anything... .no hard lines... .I give off a "vibe" that I did't know what I was getting into with an unknown vacation... .and then put emphasis on the good ones we have had.  

I leave this information like "silly putty"... .she can make it into whatever she wants... (not much risk of invalidation)... .with a nudge towards "the good side".

me:  "I'm fascinated at how wise God was to put us together.  You have helped me grow and mature... ."  (I feel this way... .and since she mentioned "I was a good man... ."... .this is a compliment to her "skills".  

Back to letting things be silent... .let her process.

her:  "Yeah... .I had some silly notions back then... ." (note:  The old me would have agreed... .and pointed out she had silly notions now... .that never worked out well for me to point that out... .  )

letting there be more silence... .

I could tell her tenseness had gone down... .I was tired... .I kinda patted her shoulder... gave her a little peck and said I was bone tired... .and needed to sleep.

[formflier]

What do you think the near future looks like for your family, formflier? Could you maintain this level of sustained attention to your wife if the business world once more called you away? And could your wife resist her fears if you were once again surrounded by colleagues and public duties?

I hope to give some details on the future... .in a few days... .finalizing a contract that my wife and I are both excited about.

But... until it's signed and done... .it's not signed and done... .

FF

[KateCat]

Congratulations!

(And watch your step. I noticed a couple of weeks ago when the Blue Angels were in my town that there is now at least one female Blue! Women are everywhere. )