CHILDREN: I moved out... But S9 and D10 dont understand

[Monarch Butterfly]

Just an update:

I have moved out since of Thursday. I took the kids to school, S9 and D10 and with three bags in the car, drove to a police station and filed a police report. From the police station I went to the attorney and filed for divorce. I cant stay in the same house and still negotiate divorce papers with him. We had nothing in terms of legally starting the process - it was kind of like - I take what he puts on paper or else... .But no attorney involved.

I had to turn off my phone (I actually took it apart, since I have no idea what part of it is tracked). I picked the kids up from school and then went straight to a friends house. I knew filing for the restraining order would surly make him want to kill me. If the threats during my marriage where true when I did nothing wrong, they sure would be true now. I called him the next day from a public phone saying I had moved out. He said he never wanted tot talk to me again. I really don't mind that part. 

On the way to the friend's house, I told my kids in terms that they could understand - I told them that daddy was bullying me and I had asked him to stop. Since he had not stopped, I had to tell the authorities. Then my s9 immediately said: Mom, you know daddy is going to turn into the hulk when he reads that paper, right?". So I didn't explain much more. I think he got the idea. My daughter 10 has aspergers, so I dont know how much she understood. She did get the part we were going on a vacation at some friends house.

So the first day was ok... .But now we are here for day 8. My daughter10 broke down crying last night and said she just wants to go home. She said I was selfish and only thought of myself. She said that the teachers told her that uBPDh had gone to the school to see where I was. (Fortunately, I had not taken the kids that day, since I thought he would show up... .He did.) She said she missed daddy and that I was wrong in leaving.

Oh boy, I did not expect that. I do understand that I cannot alienate the BPDparent, and that I do my best in saying that he loves them, (lie,  , but they will figure that out in time) and that his anger is towards me, not them,  and I try to do my best at keeping them in a healthy world. But sometimes I wish i could just say the truth.

So this weekend I let them go over to their fathers. He picked them up at school on Friday and will return them on Monday. I instructed the kids to not tell him where we are staying, and that he probably would say some things about me that aren't true, since usually when we are mad, we tend to exaggerate the story a bit. I told them not to pay attention, and just ignore his comments towards me. I also said that he would calm down with time and that they should have a great weekend - just remember that he loves them.

I have no idea if I am doing the right thing... .Well, let me rephrase that. Yes I do know I am doing the right thing by moving out and letting my kids have a chance at a good and happy future. I just don't know how to put that in words that the kids will understand. I just wish it weren't so hard.

I hate this. It sucks tremendously.

[livednlearned]

Hi Monarch Butterfly,

I did almost the same thing you describe.

I left when the heat turned up too hot to tolerate, and then scooped S14 up from school (9 at the time) and we moved somewhere without telling N/BPDx where we were, about 6 miles away. I started the divorce proceedings that day.

It's hard when our kids don't see the bigger picture and want to be a family, even if that version of family is a mess. It must be so hard to hear your D say she wants to see her dad. Best thing to do is to validate her feelings. That doesn't mean you have to let down boundaries. It just means you accept and acknowledge how she feels. Validate her feelings, and then enforce whatever boundaries you think are right.

What did your lawyer advise in terms of the kids seeing him?

Are they in therapy? Are you seeing a T?

It took me some time to realize than N/BPDx abusing me is not that different than him abusing S14. He abused us in different ways, but at the end of the day, he was a bully. Even when he turned on the charm and idealized S14, it was a challenge for him to understand what was going on because it was a form of bullying and manipulation.

Read everything you can about parental alienation and how to raise emotionally resilient kids (ie. validation). Your ex has a head start with D, and you may find yourself battling for her heart and mind in the months and years ahead.

Lesson 5 and 6 on the Coparenting board have a lot of good material. Dr. Craig Childress is another good source to learn about PA, he tends to describe extreme cases, although he explains the underlying pathology in better terms than anyone else. Divorce Poison can freak you out, but it has good solid straightforward tips. One thing I liked about his work is that he has a list of movies on his website that you can watch with your kids. You can talk about situations and values, and discuss them abstractly, helping them understand how to understand certain situations without directly discussing their dad.

Divorce is hugely triggering for someone with a PD, as you know. And he will likely get worse with the PA if he is a high-conflict dangerous type of PD. He will want to win at all costs and that means he won't be able to tolerate seeing the kids tolerate you. Fortunately, there are antidotes to this -- get started early. Get the kids in therapy if you can and try to find someone who has an understanding of BPD and PA. The kids are going to need a neutral third party to talk about what's going on, and if your ex sways them to think poorly of you, they'll need a trusted independent person to help neutralize those thoughts. This only works, though, if your ex stays out of the picture and doesn't try to use the therapist as a weapon he can turn against you.

Also, it's a good idea to let the kids figure out whether their dad loves them -- you can't tell someone how another person feels. And you don't want to tell them that he loves them when he's being a bully to you. That's confusing. That will really mess up their sense of what love means, and they'll take that with them into friendships and adult romantic relationships. Also, if they don't feel loved by their dad, and you say he loves them, that's invalidating. And validation of their feelings is the number one most important skill in your skill set right now. Read everything you can about it.

How are you holding up otherwise? Do you feel you have a good L?

[Monarch Butterfly]

Excellent advice... .I will check out the reading material.  I am glad you pointed out the therapy for the kids, since I had thought about that but not really called yet. I need to do that.

[ForeverDad]

So is there a temporary order in place? So that you have official backing that they should come back after the weekend?

I recall that my marriage imploded when I called 911.  In my now-ex's mind she was more determined than ever to paint me black.  As soon as she got out she went to family court trying to get a protection order for herself and our preschooler.  CPS stated they had "no concerns" about me and so our son was removed from her petition and a parenting schedule was issued.  I had protection too and the house but family court gave her standard temp custody and temp majority time.  A few months later the orders were dropped and she promptly blocked all my contact with my son, even my phone calls to him were blocked.  It took a month for me to file for divorce and another 2 months to get the initial hearing for temp orders.  Meanwhile, it was 3 months blocked.  I was sure the magistrate would be exceedingly peeved at her and hoped I would get make up time and a better order the second time around.  Not to be.  He verified with her that she hadn't let me see our preschooler for 3 months, then merely said "I'll fix that" and ordered virtually the same order as before.  No lecture for her.  No make up time for me.  The court didn't care one bit what happened absent orders.

Too, while there were no orders even my police weren't helpful.  Without an order stating otherwise, both parents have equal but unspecified rights.  They told me to ask for help once I had an order in hand and refused to accompany me to her door.  However, when I asked what they would do if she called them, they said they'd come rushing.  Since I didn't want to risk an arrest, I waited on court for its (as I saw it) ho-hum response.

So what I'm saying is that if you're thinking "I want to show I'm fair and reasonable to the court and all the professionals" then understand it may not mean all that much how fair or nice you are.  A quote I've read here, "The one misbehaving is seldom gets consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit."  In other words, in the grand scheme of things much of what happens now will not affect the outcome overmuch.  If you keep 'possession' of the children until an order is issued, court may not see it as such a big thing.

Of course your situation is different from mine.  At that time I couldn't go see or pick up my son from school, he was only 3 years old then and she didn't have a job to leave him somewhere.  Your children are school age, your H works and so you ought to have opportunities to collect the kids if they aren't returned, very carefully of course.

[Monarch Butterfly]

Day 10 since I left... .

I am still reading the material that was suggested - excellent by the way. I am having a hard time of just figuring out what the best thing to do is, what the right thing is, what is best for the kids, etc.

I don't think I'll ever get a grip on how court thinks. I guess I just have to do what I can lay my head on the pillow at night and live with.

I do have the restraining order, but it is very open. He cant get close to me, but he has the right to see the kids. That is how they put it.

The part about telling the kids that their dad loves them - so true. I hadn't thought about the implications of saying that phrase before, and what it would do to their vision of love. I really need to work on that part.

One step at a time.

[momtara]

Congrats!

I wouldn't worry too much - your daughter does have Asperger's and in time she will understand. Probably if you get them both a good therapist they'll understand better.

It's hard to figure out the line between validating their feelings, making sure they understand your feelings, and not alienating. That's something to work on with their therapist. I don't think you should feel bad about being honest with them.

Are you sure he won't use the kids to get back at you? If he harasses them for your address or something else, it's at least going to be hard on them emotionally. I wonder if you are being too nice. Sure if he is good with the kids he should see them, but once you loosen boundaries too much, it's hard to reset them, so you might want to think about what kind of visitation you'd really feel comfortable with. Especially if his threats were violent.

[whirlpoollife]

Monarch Butterfly, did the kids get returned to you last Monday?

[Monarch Butterfly]

Actually, they did. They came back very quiet and reserved. They havent said much, which is bothering more than I had liked.

My uBPDh took them to the movies, bought ice cream, invited the cousins over, had a sleep over and promised them an X-box if they moved in with him. Then he sent a message through the kids that they he might pick them up at school on wednesday if I let him. He really shouldnt be trying to send vistation negociations through the kids. I texted him back and said No.

Of course, since I am currently living at a friends house until I can scramble enough money to pick up a move and pay rent, so I do not have much to offer, except quality time, which at their age, doesnt quite sink in. My friends have been so supportive, but there really is no place like home. So I need to find my home soon. I know that this time I spend with them will be so valuable in the future, but so far, in their minds, I have nothing.

My D10 wants to move in with her dad. She told me he has a playstation. My s9 wants my uBPDh to pick him up on wednessday. I asked why, and he said that the tablet charger was with dad. Ugh... .Yeah, stupid me that packed in a hurry and brought the tablet but not the charger. 

Not once have they wanted to be back for their dad, but it is the fun stuff and things that he offers. I wish they could see through this, but that is hard to ask of kids.

I said NO to wed pick up, and that didn't go well either. I feel like I am slowly loosing them. I had never expected this type of reaction from the kids. I guess getting attention from dad for the first time in their life is just so impressive and fun... .

Maybe I'm complaining too much. Better he want to impress them than paint them black, like he has done me. I know it is a matter of time. But I have to admit, it is an impressive show he has put on to get their attention and affection. Very impressive... .

[ForeverDad]

Chargers are inexpensive.  There is quite a variety out there.  If the cable has a USB end on it then you can use your computer to charge them, buy a wall outlet USB charger or buy even a car USB charger that uses the 12V accessory plug.  Generally online sites are cheaper than items sitting on racks in local stores.

If the children aren't already in counseling or have ready access to counseling, then that's something positive you can do.  He may obstruct and sabotage but probably can't stop counseling for them, courts like counseling.  Just be sure to get experienced and perceptive professionals, if he gets to choose he'll try to get ones who can be manipulated, fooled, confused and overall flummoxed.

Don't fail to ask for child support and possibly also spousal support for the transition or, more realistically, for the length of the divorce process.

You will have been married for 19-20 years by the time the divorce is complete.  Likely that is considered a long term marriage in your state.  Depending your how much you each earn, you could get some post-decree alimony for anywhere from 3 to 10 years, though possibly not quite at the top end of the range.  Most states don't have permanent alimony but they do have provision for short term transitional support to assist you in the transition, or if not now then it may be something you can seek nearer the end of the case when the financial aspects of equity and assets are addressed.  Your local legal resources should be able to estimate likely strategies and outcomes.

Ponder this too.  If you don't have a job currently or could earn much more if you go back to school for a diploma, certification or career training, then seriously consider seeking extended support while you go back to school.  While 4 years in school may be too much to seek, 2 years is certainly reasonable.

Remember, this is about having informed and assertive strategies.  Above and beyond your lawyer, counselors, trusted family and trusted friends (generally not mutual friends, they may be conned into siding with StbEx) you also have us here in peer support.  We've Been There, Done That.  It's okay, normal, even expected, for you to stand up for yourself, your children and your parenting.

[whirlpoollife]

While I waited for the custody hearing , five months of living together after I filed, xh became the ":)isneyland dad" , father of the year. I was very close to the children but once he got hold of them to blame me for the breakup of the marriage the kids turned on me. Their young minds were swayed enough to tell the GAL, gaurdian adlium ,their own L, that xh wanted and got, that they did not want to live with me anymore. I was told that in the court house during the custody negotiations. Xh also chummed up with the GAL, who did not like me from the start. 

( I think now that was a tactic used on moms to give in to the 50/50... .after hearing that their own babies don't want them anymore they are happy to at least get 50% of the time. )

And from the start I did not want to take away the kids from their dad, xh knew that. But xh had something else in mind ,xh wanted full custody, he wanted to take away the kids from me.

so don't be nice , keep the kids with you as much as possible. You be in charge , not your x2bh. ( show you can share the children but for your own sake not too much) Or else the kids will have more time with him when custody orders get written up. One is the kids will like the fun stuff he all of sudden is doing and other the court will look at the time that he was given and think that all is ok .

I have no family where I live but all the in laws live here. It was hard and still is knowing how much time they spend with them.  I devoted most of my life to them but instantly turned into an evil whore in their eyes when I fiiled for divorce. So kids are brained washed not just from xh but from in laws too.

I understand the feeling of your own kids pulling away , it's devastating.