Formflier's BPD detector and reactions continued

[Depression = 72% of members]

I thought I'd continue this thread because there are several comments that haven't yet been addressed by formflier.

[Cat Familiar]

I thought I'd continue this thread because there are several comments that haven't yet been addressed by formflier.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll start with the male/female dynamic. I don't know if you truly get how vulnerable women feel in responding to ads sometimes, FF. We're going to an unfamiliar house and conducting business with people we don't know.

Your communication to me seemed a bit hostile. It doesn't surprise me that this woman might feel a bit threatened and be willing to lose money rather than see you again.

I don't even want to get into the argument of whether or not the stroller was broken.

Another way you could have handled it would have been to say, "Bring it over and I'll see if there's something I've overlooked and can fix it. And if not, I'm happy to give you your money back. Sorry for the inconvenience."

In that way, you preserve your honor without trying to shame her.

[formflier]

 

Is telling someone they have offended you and requesting an apology... .or making a refund contingent on an apology really shaming someone?

Never crossed my mind...

What part of the communication was hostile?  There was no intention to be hostile.

Direct... .clear... .to the point... .

I don't see how asking her to bring it over and let me fix it preserves my honor.  It seems to ignore the speech... rant... suggestion... .all of that stuff she hinted at or said...

I'll also tell you that you are not the first person to tell me that I come across as hostile... .my take is it is mainly a military/civilian thing.  I'm direct... .I don't beat around the bush... .you know where you stand with me... .no doubts.

There is no name calling (I only do that with buds... .people that I clearly like... .or people that I really don't like... .and have no interest in ever restoring a relationship with.

Maybe that's the angle that some don't understand... or I haven't explained well. 

The goal is not to shame... .it's to provide a pathway to restoration.  A clear pathway... .

If the other person chooses to walk that path... .then great... .r/s restored... press on.

If not... .we go our separate ways... .

Keep the questions coming... .I really do find it fascinating the different reactions and ideas people have to this situation.

Right now... .if I could go back in time... I would ask her to clarify what she meant before saying anything else...

That's where I'm at with it right now...

FF

[KateCat]

This happened yesterday, right? Is there some way both of you can still feel better about this?

[GaGrl]

My DH is a retired Army infantry officer, also worked Intelligence a number of years. I'm OK with the military perspective and direct/assertive communication.  I'm still working in corporate America - an executive coach and in the "trenches" of  politics, strategy, you name it. I deal with people wrapping emotion and triggers around their work transactions every day and having to work through the dynamics of what they are creating for themselves and their teams.

All that to say that... .your reaction to the buyer's initial (more than accusatory) communication was, to me, equally as rude and aggressive (not assertive) as her initial (really ineffective) approach. You immediately reached an impasse... .zero to 60 in ten seconds.

If someone in a similar  transaction "demanded" an apology of me as a condition of a refund on defective merchandise, I would quickly decide ... ."Uh-uh. This guy is mixing transaction with emotion, and I'm not ok with where he's going. I just wanted my $$$ back. It's not worth this level of conflict if that's the case. I'm out $30 and so be it... .not worth the war."

The insertion of a demand as a new element of the transaction is where I'm confused.  Why did you need the buyer to subjugate herself or her position in order to resolve a transactional conflict? You felt insulted and could not move forward until she alleviated your emotional hurt? You needed to even the playing field?

Help us understand.

[formflier]

This happened yesterday, right? Is there some way both of you can still feel better about this?

I feel fine about it... .especially since I have a big announcement... .check for new post from me!

FF

[formflier]

Help us understand.

She didn't just ask for a refund... .

I don't deal with people that deal with me in that manner... .I set boundaries... rules... .conditions... whatever you want to call them.

Not really about a level playing field... or at least I don't think that.

I laid out a pathway she would walk to get what she implied she wanted... .(and that I didn't think she deserved or I was responsible for)... .

More later... .

FF

[formflier]

You immediately reached an impasse... .zero to 60 in ten seconds.

See... I would say this was efficient. 

I didn't waste her time... .or mine.  We got to the bottom line... .rather quickly.

My goal was not her happiness... or unhappiness... .

Again... more later... keep the perspectives coming...

FF

[Seoulsister]

The goal is not to shame... .it's to provide a pathway to restoration.  A clear pathway... .

If the other person chooses to walk that path... .then great... .r/s restored... press on.

If not... .we go our separate ways... .

FF

Placing that type of condition on the situation (by demanding an apology) kind of puts her at your mercy. She's rude, clearly, but forcing someone to ingratiate another (with an apology which we all know wouldn't be genuine) seems a bit self-righteous.

[KateCat]

The insertion of a demand as a new element of the transaction is where I'm confused.

I am confused here as well. I believe both parties to a contract are expected to remain within "the four corners" of that contract. Whether or not a party is rude; a party is ex-military or anything else.

I guess if I were practicing the art of the deal with the likes of Donald Trump I would be expected to know "how he rolls" and all that. But then I wouldn't be inclined to enter into a contract with him.

I say return the money.

[OffRoad]

My take on this is that if you simply wanted to be direct, a response could have been "The brakes were working the last time I used it. It offends me that you automatically assume I sold you something with the intent to harm children."

or a more elaborate "Are you aware you have cast aspirations on my character by implying that I knowingly sold you a defective stroller, and your assertion that you don't expect me to refund your money?"

Or simply responded "What?" to her first text, giving her the opportunity to clarify herself.

Simply called her on her bad behavior. I sometimes think that having dealt with pwBPD for as long as we have, we forget that there are OTHER pds and just plain rude people and we can deal with them in a forthright manner, not have to go around left field like we do with our pwBPD.

Immediately jumping to "You were rude to me, unless you give me an apology I won't give you your money back." is not the norm in a conversation. Really. It isn't. Ask some people you know that don't deal with pwBPD, and see what they say.

[formflier]

 

I guess to respond I was showing her a pathway back into the 4 corners... .

If someone decides to exit the contractual parameters... .well... you don't have to deal with them.

Just to be clear... .for others that may come along... .there is no contract... .but I think the example is a good one.

FF

[formflier]

Immediately jumping to "You were rude to me, unless you give me an apology I won't give you your money back." is not the norm in a conversation. Really. It isn't. Ask some people you know that don't deal with pwBPD, and see what they say.

I agree... .that is not a normal conversation... .so... I didn't handle is "normally"... .

And... if I did have a time machine... .I would have asked her to clarify... .maybe even used my "help me understand"... .

FF

[KateCat]

I'm too lazy to call my nephew just now, so if an attorney specializing in contract law would like to correct me on the following, I will gladly withdraw this opinion:

There is a valid contract: an oral contract with an offer, an acceptance and an exchange of "consideration" on both sides: $30 for a jogging stroller.

This contract does not fall under any of the subcategories of contract required to be in writing according to the "Statute of Frauds." This contract is expected to be honored by both parties.

[formflier]

I'm too lazy to call my nephew just now, so if an attorney would like to correct me on the following, I will gladly withdraw this opinion:

There is a valid contract: an oral contract with an offer, an acceptance and an exchange of "consideration" on both sides: $30 for a jogging stroller.

This contract does not fall under any of the subcategories of contract required to be in writing according to the "Statute of Frauds." This contract is expected to be honored by both parties.

I can see that... .I get the point.

There is no warranty given or implied. 

She inspected the product to her standards... gave $30... and left with stroller.  Contract done.

FF

[KateCat]

Well, we will just have to take the case to "Judge Judy" and see who she spanks.

[formflier]

 

I'm ready! 

[Cat Familiar]

I thought I'd repost the initial exchange of words:

jogging stroller: FF, this is (ladies name). We bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

Me: I'll return your $30 with return of the stroller and an in person apology for the lecture and apparent aspersions against my character 2:53 PM

jogging stroller: I'll talk to my husband about when we can get back to (ff town). You should review our exchanges. At no point did I accuse you of being a bad person. I made 3 points: 1. I asked clearly if anything needed replacing and you answered clearly "no" 2. Please be considerate of safety in the future when selling children's items 3. Put yourself in our shoes- you wouldn't want your wife in this situation. I did not insult you. I want you to be aware that selling a broken stroller can be very dangerous. I appreciate that you are willing to return it. 3:07 PM

Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

jogging stroller: Apologize for what? You told me the stroller was in working condition and it's not. I know a bike shop that will repair it and donate it to charity. Id rather flush $30 and the stroller than give an apology that is undue and run the risk of anyone else getting on this death trap. We're done here. Don't spend your $30 all in one place 3:25 PM

Me: Your choice... 3:27 PM

[Cat Familiar]

Is telling someone they have offended you and requesting an apology... .or making a refund contingent on an apology really shaming someone?

Never crossed my mind...

What part of the communication was hostile?  There was no intention to be hostile.

Direct... .clear... .to the point... .

The first thing you said was that you'd return the money with the "return of the stroller and an in person apology for the lecture and apparent aspersions against my character."

To me, this upped the level of the conflict in addition to being very rude.

When I first read the woman's email to you, I thought she sounded very accusatory and hostile. Now I read it again and she sounds very upset and protective of her children, granted a drama queen, but not unreasonable.

As the exchange goes on, you sound huffy and self-important. You have not addressed her concerns, yet you expect her to apologize to you.

She claims the stroller is broken.

You explain to us that you did not test it, yet disagree with her assessment, and say there's no possibility that both the hand brakes and foot brakes could be broken.

Basically your communication to her is "How dare you insult me by telling me the object I sold you is not in the condition I claimed and that it is dangerous?"

She was not artful in how she presented her complaint to you, but she was worked up about the safety of her children.

You, on the other hand, took her communication as a personal insult and insisted that in order for her to get her money back, she had to not only apologize, but to make a "genuine in person apology."

Sorry, FF. The more I read this, the more my sympathy is with her.

[formflier]

You have not addressed her concerns, yet you expect her to apologize to you.

Her concern was getting her $30 back... correct? 

Handled that in my first 4 words... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Is telling someone they have offended you and requesting an apology... .or making a refund contingent on an apology really shaming someone?

When that someone is being subjugated to the will or command of another, yes, I believe so.

Never crossed my mind...

This is what I find disconcerting.

The goal is not to shame... .it's to provide a pathway to restoration.  A clear pathway... .

If the other person chooses to walk that path... .then great... .r/s restored... press on.

If not... .we go our separate ways... .

I'm reminded of the saying, "I'm easy to get along with, when things go my way."

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

I feel that "she" is the one who provided the clear path forward and "you chose" not to take it, making yet another stipulation for refunding her money -- a "genuine" in person apology.

I don't see how asking her to bring it over and let me fix it preserves my honor.  It seems to ignore the speech... rant... suggestion... .all of that stuff she hinted at or said...

Because it would have been an honorable position to take.

I'll also tell you that you are not the first person to tell me that I come across as hostile... .

Well, add me to the list.

You have not addressed her concerns, yet you expect her to apologize to you.

Her concern was getting her $30 back... correct? 

Handled that in my first 4 words... .

FF

FF, seriously?

Okay, I think I am done here.

[PeppermintTea]

I think it's fine to tell someone they've offended you. I don't think that you can request (demand) or make a condition of an apology. Either that is offered freely by the person once they understand they offended you... .or it is meaningless and pointless.

So I could understand FF saying something to the effect of:

"I dislike the tone of your text and feel offended that you're calling my integrity into question. I will refund the money to you. Lets arrange a time to do this exchange."

Then she knows you're offended (and that you are a guy with integrity as you're offering the refund) and it is her value system that dictates whether she will apologise or not.

In that exchange you only really needed to tell her that she had offended you.

[formflier]

In that exchange you only really needed to tell her that she had offended you.

Then... I suppose she should be fine by telling me she wants her $30 back?  And leaving it at that...

[Notwendy]

It's interesting that the responses to this incident are so that the women seem aligned in their response.


The key to this, FF, is not if you are right or wrong, or about your honor, but if you can see perhaps how this is felt from another perspective, and if you can have some empathy for the woman.

She isn't your wife, or your family, and while that is your main priority here, how we see and empathize with others is an internal skill - one we own. When we use this, it can be applied to any relationships.

When people I barely know trigger me, or get me upset, I see this as an opportunity to learn something that could possibly help me with my family and people I know.

The difference in how we see this is whether we look outward or inward. We need to do both. I have to filter if I think someone is being unreasonable. However, I also have to examine my reaction to that- because how I react is the part I can control.

So turning this inward. Let's say I sold someone a stroller for $30, and that person called me the next day to tell me I was a dishonorable person. Sure that would upset me. I would not want someone to think this. However, the person does.

I can't control how someone else thinks, but my honor is on the line. How do I fix this? My internal code of ethics would be that I would be feeling somewhat embarrassed to sell someone something that might be defective. I say might because I don't know what happened, but one possibility with any used item is that it can possibly break, and maybe it was just bad luck that this did at the time.

What determined that it would break? I don't know but it just happened and this is the situation to deal with. Now, I have a situation where my ethics are on the line, and so I have choices. I could do what you did, make the case that this person has to apologize to me. Does that fix my honor? Well maybe I would get the satisfaction of eliciting an apology in exchange for $30 but that is not a sincere apology.

A sincere apology comes without strings attached ,and even if you were able to get a sincere apology, you would not know in that situation.  You can not buy sincerity for $30.

The only repair to my honor that I can think of is to let her return the stroller and give her the money back. This way, she has seen that I did not rip her off. She may or may not think I am an honorable person, but that is the only possible way to restore her belief that I didn't rip her off. For me, I have repaired the issue. I have the stroller back, she has the money, no harm done.

[PeppermintTea]

In that exchange you only really needed to tell her that she had offended you.

Then... I suppose she should be fine by telling me she wants her $30 back?  And leaving it at that...

Yes she should. She didn't stop at that, but if FF is playing to his values and being the guy with the integrity he didn't  need to reciprocate in kind... .

Just my thoughts.

PT

[Notwendy]

Also, the idea that this is about her insulting FF is also an assumption. We know nothing about the woman. An insult is a possibility, but it may not be about FF at all.

The woman might be like this to everyone, might have a mental illness, may be under serious stress and was just at the breaking point with the stroller.

What she really wanted was the money back for a stroller she believed was broken. So, she didn't say it in the best way, or the right way. Is this the place for holding up boundaries, or giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

There is a time and place for either choice.

[formflier]

For me, I have repaired the issue. I have the stroller back, she has the money, no harm done.

As I've said before... .I find the reactions and input to this fascinating... .the different points of view that people bring.

Would I be viewed differently by women if I made a speech about being unemployed (although this just changed!   ) and suggesting that the woman just wanted to take food and resources ($30) away from my babies...

Essentially going "Papa Bear"... .to her "Mama Bear"... ?

I do see... and I can empathize that it is possible she felt harm would come to her kids... .or that I didn't care about them... or some such thing. 

Interesting exchange...

FF

[Notwendy]

It could add empathy if your children were hungry and you sold it to feed them, but again, asking her for an apology won't feed them.

A focus on this exchange is the woman's insult to your honor and your attaching an apology as a condition for her refund. If this is about needing the money for your kids, then that is another aspect.

If underlying this exchange, was a need to keep the $30, then this was not mentioned to the woman. However, by adding the contingency of an apology to getting her money back, the odds were tipped more in your favor for keeping it.  If you needed the money for your kids, then this could have possibly been the motivator for the verbal exchange more than ( or in addition to) your honor.

Another option might have been to ask the woman to let you pay her back over time or fix it yourself. That might feel humiliating though, and that is understandable. Or since she was already mad, she could have gotten madder. However, one doesn't really know how she'd react if the response had been to say you had no idea the stroller would break, would she bring it back to be fixed, or let her be paid back in installments?

Again, this is not to pick on you FF, or say right or wrong -you have had significant stresses- but to discuss the different ways a situation can be seen.

[formflier]

If underlying this exchange, was a need to keep the $30, then this was not mentioned to the woman.

Nor should it have been (IMO)... .it's not her business.  (and in reality... .is a minor motivator... .sure money is tight)

The business we had was a stroller.

She made a choice to introduce additional business to the transaction/communication... .I made a choice to address that... .as succinctly as possible.

I totally see the different points of view... .it's interesting to understand and learn about peoples life experiences and how they effect what they do today.

I've obviously been raised and had life experiences that say when people are rather casual about casting aspersions... .I shut that down... .rather quickly.

Unfortunately... .it is rare that I have cut people a break and had it not bite me in the a$$... .and when people are held to account... .usually the rest of the people straighten up.  (this point could be a bit out of context... .this would be when I was Skipper of an organization... .but it's still about human nature.)


FF

[Seoulsister]

For me, I have repaired the issue. I have the stroller back, she has the money, no harm done.

As I've said before... .I find the reactions and input to this fascinating... .the different points of view that people bring.

Would I be viewed differently by women if I made a speech about being unemployed (although this just changed!   ) and suggesting that the woman just wanted to take food and resources ($30) away from my babies...

Essentially going "Papa Bear"... .to her "Mama Bear"... ?

No. To me, the back stories/genders of either of you have no bearing. It's more that two wrongs don't make a right. It was a purchase gone wrong with an inconsiderate buyer. Your demand gives the seller the upper hand and places the buyer in a groveling position.

[formflier]

Again, this is not to pick on you FF, or say right or wrong 

Hey... .I really don't feel picked on or triggered... .I appreciate the input.  I like to "understand" other points of view... .especially ones that I don't agree with... .

That way I can take the new understanding and challenge my decisions and assumptions and actions... .

Perhaps there is a better way... .process improvement and all that... .

In life... .I tend to not be scared of errors of "commission" (things that I consciously decided to do)... .but I tend to worry about what I don't know and errors of "omission".  So... .my searching and examining of other points of view will either entrench me more in my current position... .or... .move me along to another perspective.

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaybeSo]

e bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

FF.  Her underlying message is about fear. that's legit.  

No, you don't have to address it as this is a 'business exchange' if you don't want to.   But in my opinion it would be the honorable thing to do.  She gave birth 2 months ago to an infant, she was planning to put that infant in the stroller she bought from you.  

Fear is fueling her text to you.

There is a disconnect, FF, in your insistence on defending your honor and your response. Your insistence and priority to defend your honor with a stranger is making you come-off like a jerk.  You are not a jerk.  I can see you are not a jerk.  However,  you come off 'like a jerk' when I read your response.

An honorable response would be to address this human being's normal range fear response AND less importantly... .offer her her $30 back.  

There is no acknowledge of her as a human being and a mother who was planning on putting a 24 month old infant in that jogging stroller... .you  jumped directly to a defensive tone and demand from HER for an apology to get her $30 bucks back?  She is not upset about $30.  This is a human making a bid to another human to be human about this... .You are both humans... . Neither one of you want in any way for kids to be put in harms way, you can  both agree on this... .and this is the crux of her text... .it has nothing to do with business... .we are humans and can connect on that level, and that is what she is asking of you... .to respond to her as a human being.   Her fear does make her text sound shrill.  This is a normal range human reaction in this context (texting).

I am so sorry!  As far as I knew the stroller was in perfect working order last we used it. I of course understand your upset and never would have sold it if I had know the brakes were bad!  I am so glad you checked it thoroughly b/f putting your kids in the stroller. And, of course I will accept a return.  Of course!  

[Cat Familiar]

FF,

Throughout this thread, you seem doggedly entrenched in your position, but interested in other peoples' perspectives.

I sense no movement in your position nor compassion for your buyer.

You might want to look at this tendency in yourself. It doesn't give a good impression to others.

Through reading your threads for months, I've seen a kind considerate guy. That guy is absent here.

By the way, congratulations on your new job!

[sweetheart]

ff remember yesterday I said I felt triggered when I read the post, it was because it was such a 'yucky' exchange, it left me feeling really angry. The reason for this is that I found your response arrogant and passive-aggressive. Now if that engendered that response in me, I can only take my hat off to the woman who walked away.

Like I said yesterday, it felt like you threw down the gauntlet for a fight and if it had been me with the buggy I would have picked that gauntlet right up!

I know you're not a jerk either ff, but like MayBeSo said that's how you come over in the exchange.

I suppose because of the tools that we learn on here and how you are about coaching us and applying things so diligently learned here with your wife, I was a taken aback by the whole exchange, it really jarred with me.

[sweetheart]

Through reading your threads for months, I've seen a kind considerate guy. That guy is absent here.

That's it ff, there is a word in my head and it is incongruence, which means not corresponding in character or kind.

I appreciate we are only human, but for some reason it matters that we walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

Does this make sense?

[formflier]

  The reason for this is that I found your response arrogant and passive-aggressive.

Hey... .I'm curious... .and I've admitted before I really don't understand passive aggressive. 

I get accused (by my wife) of that all the time... .my (our) Ts scoffed at that... .and have consistently leaned on me to dial down the aggression... .(which I describe as direct)... .

I can see how it comes off as arrogant... .again... .I would use different words... .but I see that point of view.

However... .I don't see myself as a passive person... .I get to the point... .directly... .no beating around the bush.

If I had to label one part of the exchange passive aggressive... .I would go with her side... ."suggesting" I wouldn't pay her... or that I might endanger her kids... .seemed to me she tried to say things without committing... .

Is that passive aggressive?

Aggression (to me) would entail name calling and or challenging someone to put on boxing gloves... .pick up pugil sticks... .or step outside (it's been a few years since I've actually done that... .but... surprisingly effective at settling things... )

More later! 

FF

[sweetheart]

No, passive aggression can be things like insisting that an unnecessary routine or procedure be followed even in trivial transactions, like asking for the apology for instance. The other person is left with a yucky feeling of just being sucker punched, like i was.

Passive aggressive behaviour is largely unconscious and can stem from feeling personally affronted/insulted by something/someone but not directly dealing with your feelings around this. Like feeling insulted your honour was called into question. It's our unconscious minds covert attack on another to get them back because we feel bad/hurt/angry/upset etc. An unconscious 'f@#* you!'

Like someone writing a list of names and you being unhappy about being on the list, so you scrub your name off instead of addressing your concerns to the person directly.

The real clue with passive aggressive behaviour is it leaves the other person feeling awful because you were not able to deal directly with feeling upset/angry about something. It's a sneaky kind of aggression, dirty fighting.

Does that help explain it more?

[formflier]

No, passive aggression can be things like insisting that an unnecessary routine or procedure be followed even in trivial transactions, like asking for the apology for instance. The other person is left with a yucky feeling of just being sucker punched, like i was.

Passive aggressive behaviour is largely unconscious and can stem from feeling personally affronted/insulted by something/someone but not directly dealing with your feelings around this. Like feeling insulted your honour was called into question. It's our unconscious minds covert attack on another to get them back because we feel bad/hurt/angry/upset etc. An unconscious 'f@#* you!'

Like someone writing a list of names and you being unhappy about being on the list, so you scrub your name off instead of addressing your concerns to the person directly.

The real clue with passive aggressive behaviour is it leaves the other person feeling awful because you were not able to deal directly with feeling upset/angry about something. It's a sneaky kind of aggression, dirty fighting.

Does that help explain it more?

Somewhat... .but that is what I don't get about it.  How someone else's feeling affects the label of my behavior.

And... .there is an assumption in there that I don't say what I mean.  If I wanted to curse at her... .I would have... .but I would have considered that rude and uncalled for... .over the top in that situation. 

I asked for what I wanted... .no more... .no less... .

Here is the thing... .I was affronted... .and I presented her with the remedy... .let her know. 

My understanding (perhaps flawed) of passive aggressive would be to agree to give her the money back and then cancel the appointment a couple times... .or be late... .but claim it was for another reason.

So... .I would appear all nice and fuzzy to her... .yet try to treat her nasty... .on the sly... .

If my behavior was passive aggressive (for the sake of argument)... .then what would my example behavior be called?

Still trying to wrap my head around this thing... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF,

Like you, I tend to be direct and unafraid of stating my opinion. I ran a successful company that sold products throughout the US for over 15 years and had several employees who worked for me. I understand chain of command.

That said, you are starting a new job and there's only one chance to make a first impression.

My feeling is that you use your military background, particularly your position of power, as an excuse for not using your emotional intelligence at times.

Had this exchange with the stroller woman been my only experience of you and had I not known more of you from reading your highly compassionate and understanding replies to other members, I would have written you off as a narcissistic jerk and not wanted to learn any more about you.

Even in your responses to several members, you continue to defend your position. Fine. We know where you stand. However, you don't seem to show the slightest capability of truly taking in our feedback, other than being an "interesting" perspective that you disagree with.

[Cat Familiar]

FF, here's a quote from you on another thread:

"I've said it other places on here... but one of the earth shattering concepts that I learned during family therapy last summer (over year ago) was to not take things personally.

Now I feel a bit sheepish that I never knew that... or considered that before... ."

Maybe it's time to extend that awareness out of the context of your family to the world at large.

[KateCat]

This is a timely incident (and thread) for you, formflier.

Not only are you re-starting your career, but you will need to monitor your relationship with your wife as it impacts your new position.

Do you have your own therapist, just for you? Now might be the time.

[formflier]

  However, you don't seem to show the slightest capability of truly taking in our feedback, other than being an "interesting" perspective that you disagree with.

This is where I am at now... .if I had a time machine.

Her text to me

I would have asked for clarification

If she stayed with the tone... .most likely would not have responded to her again

If she was conciliatory... .would have offered the $30 back and dropped the rest.

That's where I'm at now with it.

[Notwendy]

I consider it fortunate to have a T who turns the mirror on me ( and a co-dependency group who does that as well). It is uncomfortable when this happens, but it is done in caring- a different kind of caring than a friend who would say to me " yeah, you were right, that woman was rude to you"

We take a stand that when something in someone else bothers us in some way, it is a message to us about something about us. Otherwise, it would not have resulted in our reacting to it. I would be willing to bet that if that woman texted you and said " You are a pink elephant and you sold me a broken space ship" you'd not consider this an insult to your honor. You'd be thinking, "this woman needs to see a doctor and get evaluated".

However, what this woman said really may have had just as little to do with you as if you were a pink elephant. She knows nothing about you, other than that she paid $30 for a broken stroller. You could be running a racket selling broken stuff for all she knows. The story she had in her head, and which reflected her fears was her own story that she made up from a small amount of evidence she had, but it really was not enough for her to say anything real about you.

What made this about you? YOU made it about you and then you reacted to it by putting her in the position of having to apologize to get her money back- and you justified your own story by her behavior.

But you don't know this woman. It is your story that she insulted your honor, but she may have had all kinds of circumstances that had nothing to do with your honor as a reason for saying what she said.

Look at these two statements

If she stayed with the tone... .most likely would not have responded to her again

If she was conciliatory... .would have offered the $30 back and dropped the rest.

You are justifying your own behavior according to what you think she should have done.  The topic of co-dependency has been raised here, and I am not making some kind of diagnosis here ( that is not my role) but the heart of co-dependency is looking at our actions from the viewpoint of what someone else did or should have or would have done.

The opposite of that is acting according to our core values. It may be your core value to insist that others respect your honor, but that isn't what makes someone honorable. Honor is internal. It is acting according to our core values no matter what anyone else thinks or says. What makes your honor (co)dependent on others honoring or apologizing to you? If you know you are honorable, and God knows you are, then what someone says doesn't change that.

I, and it seems others here, think you are an honorable guy. Maybe this is why we are responding in this way. You don't need a total stranger's apology to be honorable.

[formflier]

I, and it seems others here, think you are an honorable guy. Maybe this is why we are responding in this way. You don't need a total stranger's apology to be honorable.

I agree... I see that point of view. 

But I think your point is a bit off... .

If she had texted that you are a pink elephant... .you sold me a broken spaceship... .give me my $30 back

I wouldn't have given her $30 back... any more than I gave it in the situation I was actually in.

This is a business transaction (to me) that was over... .not an extended personal relationship that I hope to continue.

I am basically laying out my thinking... .my negotiating strategy my moves... .rather than justifying my actions.

I considered her proposal... .such as it was (suggestion... .whatever... .but my assumption was she wanted her money back... .)

And I clearly sent back a counter proposal that she could consider... with a minimum amount of assumptions.

I'm fine that she didn't accept.

I would not have been fine letting someone talk like that to me... .and handing over $30.  It's up to me to protect myself from things I'm not fine with... .therefore... .I took matters into my own hand... .and laid out for her how this could work. 

She is free to reject.  She is my equal... .I am hers.  I can't force her to do anything... just as she can't force me to do anything.

I feel like I'm rambling a bit now... will come back to this in a bit.

FF

[Harri]

FF, I just want to jump in here and say that I do not see even an smidge of passive aggressive behavior in your responses to that woman.  IMO, *she* was (very much so) and tried to use emotional blackmail to play the victim.  Unfortunately, IMO, far too many people today will fall back on this type of behavior to cover up their own mistakes (in this case, negligence).

I see the part where you required an apology before giving her the refund as you being a harda*s.  Not manipulative at all.  Not necessarily right but certainly not passive aggressive.   

Her behavior is the definition of PA and emotional blackmail. 

I do not really know you or your story as I read and post mainly on the Coping board, but to me, as someone who barely knows you, you come across as a stand up guy who tolerates little BS and can take a very hard line on it.  I am the same way in many situations, especially work ones, and have had to struggle to see it in my own exchanges.  That's why I have been following this thread so closely.  You wading through multiple pages of responses here has helped me to shed a little light on my own hard-a*s-ness.  (I am impressed with your patience here as you have already stated a while ago that you would have done things differently.)

Thanks!   

[Cat Familiar]

Another angle is that you say you are a Christian, ff. What about Jesus' advice on turning the other cheek?

You're so eager to salvage your honor, but didn't you behave dishonorably in that you kept the money and the purchaser felt ripped off? In doing so, you confirmed her worst impression of you. I know you're moving to another area, but what if you had sold this after the move and it turned out that this woman was the wife of a superior at your new placement? You just never know how these things can affect your reputation, a reputation you're so eager to defend.

If you had returned the money and she returned the stroller without having made a big deal about it by asking for a "sincere apology" then you could have seen if the stroller was truly broken. If it wasn't, you could have sold it again. If it was, you could have repaired it.

She was ready to extend the olive branch to you by calling it an "oversight" and offering to make the return with no hard feelings.

Yet, you posted this exchange and asked if this community thought she was a pwBPD. My first reading of the exchange of texts was with that idea in mind and she came across poorly. Yet when I reread the texts a few hours later, my opinion changed dramatically.

I thought she was passionately protective of her children and that her response was poor in that she made assumptions that you wouldn't take the stroller back and that you were thoughtless about selling broken children's items. I agree, that was uncalled for.

But, the honorable and Christian way to deal with her would have been to refund her money and take back the stroller. Done deal.

[formflier]

 you come across as a stand up guy who tolerates little BS and can take a very hard line on it. 

without apology... .I might ad!  

Welcome to the discussion!  

I've got several more responses to make... .but at the moment I just took D5s temp... 100.2... .not good.

The hard a$$ is softening a bit... .trying to care for her... .

FF

[formflier]

Another angle is that you say you are a Christian, ff. What about Jesus' advice on turning the other cheek?

Also guidance to tell someone when they are out of line... .offended... .in the wrong... .etc etc.

If you don't "win them" over... .

Bring several people with you next time... .

If you don't "win them" over then you take it before the church.

That is one of the reasons I started down that path... .

It's not always the person that is bringing the "allegation" or stating the offense that is right.  The purpose of bringing others along and ultimately having it decided by the church is to evaluate both sides and see if there is Biblical error.

FF

[formflier]

But, the honorable and Christian way to deal with her would have been to refund her money and take back the stroller. Done deal.

Tolerance of sin is very close to acceptance... .I'm going to state this very generally... since I haven't read those passages in a while... .but when someone sins (or potentially sins) there is a responsibility to "call them on it" to "win back a brother"  (again... .I'm trying to give the general idea... .I swear... .I'll move this back up on my Bible study list! ) 

The lady was "apparently" making false accusations against me... .bearing false witness... . 

Not something to let go lightly... .

FF

[formflier]

but didn't you behave dishonorably in that you kept the money and the purchaser felt ripped off? In doing so, you confirmed her worst impression of you. 

No... I don't think I did.

Not sure how honor... .another persons feelings... .and my wallet are connected.

The transaction was done. 

If I contacted her and told her I felt she had paid to little and I felt bad... .would anyone advise her to pay me more money to protect her honor... .or fix my feelings?

FF

[formflier]

Do you have your own therapist, just for you? Now might be the time.

Yes... .but... .he moved... and I am moving.  We stay in touch... .and are trying to figure out a next good time to get together in person.

I'm looking forward to building a support system in my new place... .

FF

[KateCat]

You've got a lot of responsibilities and decisions to make, and a weekly visit with a person you really click with would be a great asset to you and your family and your co-workers as you go forward.

This thread? There are a lot of interesting thoughts, words and phrases in this thread. The one that resonates with me personally is "sucker punch." This thread takes me by surprise.

[formflier]

FF, here's a quote from you on another thread:

"I've said it other places on here... but one of the earth shattering concepts that I learned during family therapy last summer (over year ago) was to not take things personally.

Now I feel a bit sheepish that I never knew that... or considered that before... ."

Maybe it's time to extend that awareness out of the context of your family to the world at large.

I was... .and still am... .OK with not taking things personally from the world at large.  Those aren't "personal" or "intimate" relationships.

I guess I should have been more clear in my "earth shattering" revelation... . That someone with who I had an intimate r/s with... .could say horrible things about me... .and it really not be about me.

I could process in my mind that someone that didn't know me... .could be talking out of their a$$ and saying things they don't know about me... .and go on my merry way.

But... .my wife knows me... .I believe (and she will sometimes say) that I'm a good ... loyal husband.  For her to say otherwise... .and be "making up" stories to support her notions... .well... .I took it personally... .and now I don't.

Still don't like it when I hear those things... .but I understand the dynamic going on with her... .

Hope this clarifies that... .

FF

[formflier]

You've got a lot of responsibilities and decisions to make, and a weekly visit with a person you really click with would be a great asset to you and your family and your co-workers as you go forward.

This thread? There are a lot of interesting thoughts, words and phrases in this thread. The one that resonates with me personally is "sucker punch." This thread takes me by surprise.

I agree... .my take on having a T... .with which you have a good... established r/s (whatever the period of time you see them in)... .is that when things change... come up... .you are past the "getting to know you" stage of a T.

Funny... I didn't notice or pick up on "sucker punch" until you mentioned it.

What... .in particular... .takes you by surprise? 

I figured there would be some discussion about "odd" things we notice in interactions with others... .the way we look at the world now that we know about PDs and such.

I think it's interesting how it turned out... .the "lenses" with which we view the world... .and others in it.

A bit of head scratching on my part about the insistence of some that I was triggered... upset... that kinda thing...

I do appreciate everyone's input... .even if I didn't "grab" it and run with it... .or agree with it. 

More later... .turns out I have three kids with strep throat... .  Wife is out of town...

So... .on the day that I'm fielding congratulatory calls on new job... .I'm also picking up sick ones from school.  Place a couple key phone calls (relationship building) while driving D5 to doctor... .  That's multitasking for you... . 

Life was simpler... .when you just had to land the plane on the carrier deck... .at night... .bad weather... .maybe a mechanical problem with plane... .

An inconsolable D5 asking me why it hurts so bad... .that's hard work...

I don't know how single parents do it... .whew...

FF

[Notwendy]

"Tolerance of sin is very close to acceptance... .I'm going to state this very generally... since I haven't read those passages in a while... .but when someone sins (or potentially sins) there is a responsibility to "call them on it" to "win back a brother" "


Not sure what her "sin" was, but if it was saying something rude then Hell must be quite overcrowded by now. 

Which reminds me of another Biblical quote: "He who is without sin can throw the first stone"... .

I'd bet that there isn't a single one of us here who has not said or done something rude... .or responded in ways we are proud of. But here on this thread we can learn to do better, and I say this for all of us.

[formflier]

Not sure what her "sin" was, but if it was saying something rude then Hell must be quite overcrowded by now. 

Apparent... or "suggestive" false witness.  9th commandment.  A big enough deal to God to write it in stone.

The invitation... ."condition"... .or as some of liked to say on here "demand" for an apology... .would... .(in a biblical sense) be her chance to repent of what she did... .or clarify herself.

Which reminds me of another Biblical quote: "He who is without sin can throw the first stone"... .

An excellent  passage... .I believe often misused to say that only those without sin are able to "confront" sin in an attempt to win back someone that has sinned.  We all sin... .I sin... when convicted of that... .repent... confess... .ask forgiveness... etc etc.

But here on this thread we can learn to do better, and I say this for all of us.

Amen to that... .

FF

PS

I'm fine with lots of Biblical discussion... .I don't initiate it here because that's not my role here.  But... I'm fine discussing, responding to questions or points that people bring up.  These are my views, beliefs and faith... .I realize others have different views... .I'm good with that.

[Notwendy]

I don't intend to make it a topic of threads either, but it came up as a topic of ethics. Actually, we can also see those quotes and commandments from different angles. False witness to me would be spreading lies/malicious gossip about someone, not saying what you are thinking about them to them in person.

The "throw the first stone" to me is about mercy and forgiveness, which is different than acceptance of bad behavior. If I expect my Maker to forgive me for being my imperfect self,  then I have to act forgiving to others.

But regardless, you seem comfortable with the ethics of your decision, while some of us are not. It has been an interesting discussion to see the different points of view. In the long run, we each have to live with our own decisions and make our peace about them, either with our own conscience or the Higher Power of our choosing, so to each his own.

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I will be really bold and share my opinion unreservedly, as you have seen me do throughout this thread. It seems that a lot of us women are hoping that you'd show a bit of flexibility and compassion in your attitude toward the stroller lady. If I may speak for some of us, we have not seen that yet.

I sense that you equate honor with strength and holding firm to your position. That may have served you well as an officer in the military, but as a former executive in the private sector, I would advise you to be open to the opinions of others and really try them on, rather than considering them from a distance as "interesting" and an artifact of how they were raised differently.

I believe a key component of strength is flexibility. Like that old adage of the mighty oak breaking in the wind, while the willow bends, your replies on this thread seem to be very rigid and indicate a clinging to your position and refusal to see another side to your text exchange.

I think many of us were shocked by your attitude and have been surprised by your unwillingness to even entertain a different viewpoint. I certainly am. From your previous posts, I've seen a compassionate and understanding man. In this thread, I see a very defensive one.

[formflier]

  False witness to me would be spreading lies/malicious gossip about someone, not saying what you are thinking about them to them in person.

Yep... there seems to be a good bit of discussion... .different points of view on 9th... about what that really means.  Some will say it means lying... .

The "throw the first stone" to me is about mercy and forgiveness, which is different than acceptance of bad behavior. If I expect my Maker to forgive me for being my imperfect self,  then I have to act forgiving to others.   

To be clear... .I have forgiven this lady... .no issues there.  But we are not reconciled... . 

Some people combine those processes... .I don't... .I see them as entirely separate...

I can see forgiveness without reconciliation... .but... .hard pressed to figure out how to reconcile without forgiveness.

FF

[Mutt]

Thanks all for participating. The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is now locked. You are welcome with starting a new or similar topic of discussion. Thanks.