Questions for attorneys

[ASD]

Hi everyone, I am done.  I am at the end of my rope.  You know the feeling.  I have found 3 attorneys to interview locally, and want your help please.  Here's my list of questions for them so far - what am I missing and what should I add? 

1.   Are you experienced in dealing with high conflict personalities?

2.   Are you familiar with, and do you have experience of, borderline personality disorder?

3.   How often do courts award primary responsibility to someone in my situation?

4.   Is it likely that they children will live with me 100% of the time?

5.   I have durable power of attorney, naming my wife; should I revoke it?

6.   Advice on how to have her leave the home and leave the children, or for me to move out with them?

Thank you all.

[Loveofhislife]

Sorry to be so brief and so blunt--I am not an attorney but have a lot of personal estate planning, probate, and family law experience (thanks to the PD's in my life)--I would revoke the POA as soon as possible--one of the very first things I did before being awarded my divorce decree!

[ForeverDad]

Life insurance - You do not have to wait to change beneficiaries on any life policies you own.  (If stbEx owns any then that may be beyond the scope of your control.)

Health insurance - You're not allowed to drop your spouse or children from health insurance during the divorce.  The divorce process puts a hold on major changes like that, unless both parents agree.  However, once the divorce is final, most insurance companies require the ex to be dropped from the policy and the COBRA process kicks in.  Of course the kids can stay covered, you're not divorcing the kids.

Vehicle insurance - Once you are separated - I was told "once the vehicles are garaged at different locations" - then notify the insurance company, to save yourself some grief let it be the party to contact ex and give notice of the requirement for a new policy covering ex's vehicles.

Inheritances - Keep them in separate personal accounts.  Mixing them with your other accounts, joint marital accounts or using them to pay for marital purposes risks them being deemed marital assets.

Savings, etc - Keep the majority of 'your' money in personal accounts.  Anything in a joint account, though technically jointly owned, can be drained to zero in a moment by an enraged or contrary spouse.  What's fair is to take half for yourself, however a disordered and entitled ex is very unlikely to be fair.  Don't let the ex guilt you if you save too much for yourself.  Later in the divorce the financials will be worked out.  (Be forewarned that any excess your ex takes now may be long gone by the time you get there.  You may get an order specify a certain split of funds but if the ex has disappeared it, well, you're up a creek.  Courts will grudgingly issue an order, but they're very reluctant to enforce the order.)

Credit accounts - try to close the joint cards, there's a real risk that the ex will try to keep using them and stick you with half or all of the bills.  You can justify it now by saying you're fixing the cards, going to a new company, getting a better interest rate or feature, etc.  On the other hand, if you're the account holder and the ex is a card holder, then you can choose when to cancel ex's card.  You may not want to do it until you file, but generally sooner is better, less opportunity for maxing out to the limit.

Important documents - A controlling or retaliatory ex is very likely to make many documents disappear.  So quietly, perhaps a few at a time when alone, copy them or move them to a safe place where the ex does not have any possible access, either physical or electronic.  Marriage certificate, birth certificates, SSN forms, titles, deeds, insurance and bank account numbers and contacts, prior tax filings, precious photos, mementos that you don't want to risk losing, etc.

[maxen]

The answer to 2 may be no, but that's less imortant than that the answer to 1 is yes.

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/pamp-eddy.pdf

Also download this, perhaps hand it to the lawyer you choose.

[Panda39]

ASD,

Do you own your home? If so that may be something to discuss also.

And if you haven't already done so read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger it may trigger some questions too.

I just pulled these off the internet, some good general questions to ask (not BPD specific)... .

A few questions you might consider asking during your initial interview with a family law attorney. These may help you determine whether this lawyer is right for your case.

1. Do you specialize in divorces, or are divorces just a part of your practice? How long have you been practicing family law? How many family law cases have you handled? Are you a "certified family law specialist?"

2. What is your strategy for my case? How long will it take to resolve my case?

3. How long do you take to return phone calls? How do I get a hold of you if there is an emergency? What do you consider to be an emergency?

4. Will anyone else in your office be working on my case? What experience do they have? Can I meet them?

5. How will you charge me? What is your hourly rate? Do you charge for the time I spend with other lawyers, with paralegals, and/or with secretaries? If so, at what rate? What is your retainer up front?

6. What costs (other than your own) do you expect will be involved (for example, for private investigators, forensic accountants, physicians, and/or psychologists), and how will you charge me for them?

7. What's your estimate of the total cost of this divorce? (Do not be alarmed that most divorce attorneys will resist answering this question as the cost of the divorce depends greatly upon the level of conflict in your case. However, the way attorneys answer this question may help you size them up. An honest attorney will often answer that it is difficult to estimate the costs in advance. An attorney that gives you an unrealistically low amount may just be trying to get your business).

8. Do you allow me to negotiate directly with my spouse? How can I keep the cost of my divorce down? Are there tasks that I can do myself to cut down on the amount you will charge me?

9. Based on what you know about my case, how would you predict a judge would rule on it?

10. What can you do to help me understand the tax effect of the decisions I will have to make?

Hope that helps.

Good Luck,

Panda39

[ASD]

First, wow.  Thank you all! 

Yes, I do own my own home and it is in my name only, both with the mortgage holder and the deed.  My realtor was ... .my wife and she didn't put her own name down for some reason.  I think she forgot!  Secondly, I own another home (long story, it's under water and rented out).  Again I am the sole owner on the deed but in this case I think she's on the mortgage.  I'll be sure to talk to the lawyers about that.

She just told me today that she has decided she wants a separation (by text) and in a way I am relieved.  The fight will come when we talk about the kids. 

Thank you all.  I will update you ... . 

[ForeverDad]

Due to the black vs white, all or nothing thinking of a pwBPD, a separation is unlikely to succeed unless you see it as only a softer path into divorce.

Court is The Real Authority... .  Yes, judges are reluctant to make informed and insightful Solomon-like rulings, but at least with Court you are less unlikely to be treated as unfairly.  Generally there are only two options, Legal Separation (impractical in our high conflict cases) or Divorce.

My now-ex and I started out our separation with temporary protection/restraining orders.  After a few months they were eventually were dismissed and we were told to find a more permanent resolution.  That was either Legal Separation or Divorce.  Religiously divorce was not my first choice but by then I accepted the reality that I was facing significant false allegations and I had to protect myself and what parenting I could.  So I filed for divorce.  (For a year or two before our separation she would rant and rage that she was going to divorce me or I divorce her, so the concept of  divorce was no stranger to either of us.)

Try to get the best temporary order you can from the very start.  Temp orders have a tendency to morph later into final orders, judges may not be interested in changing what in their view seems to be working.

My lawyer had told me that he has almost never done separations.  The reason (in my area) not to do a legal separation with an acting-out disordered spouse is that the first time (separation) you go through the custody process, she may misbehave before the court and evaluator and you will be seen as the better parent resulting in favorable parenting time for you.  But if you later decide to take that final step and seek divorce, you may have to go through the custody evaluation all over again and the second time around she may know how to hide her behaviors and she might get more custodial responsibility and parenting time.

I've posted about this topic a few times before, it's probably a good time to mention it again as it teaches a lesson: Experience is not the best teacher, it is the harshest teacher.  So, if you can, learn from others' experiences.

In addition, my lawyer warned me that having children was a reason to do divorce rather than separation, in my area I'd be doing some steps twice, not only doubling my costs but also risking her figuring out how to look better to the court.

My lawyer warned me to avoid a trap a prior client had fallen for.  His client was divorcing his wife and the reports had come out well for him, his wife's behaviors were that concerning, he was going to have custody of his children, all that was needed was for him to sign.  One last signature. That's all.  No response to his letter to come in and sign, so he called (probably his secretary) and guess who answered?  The wife.  Yes, they were back together again.   With that last signature left undone, the husband dropped the divorce.  Six months passed.  Then the husband came in wanting a divorce yet again, his wife really hadn't changed after all.  This time around his wife knew which behaviors the court and evaluators scrutinized and which she should avoid during the custody evaluation (or it might have been the court's cheaper parenting investigation) and the second time around the reports recommended the children stay with her.  You see, the second report had little or nothing to do with including the first one, dropping the first case and starting over in court had triggered a Full Reset.

My lawyer wanted me to avoid a similar mistake.  He told me that even if she came and danced on my lawn naked, I should think with my big head and not my little one.

[livednlearned]

ASD,

I didn't read closely through the other posts, but saw lots of good questions that will help guide you through your consultations.

My only additional 2 cents:  have someone come with you, if possible, to write things down -- it's easy to get flooded in these meetings and have things jumble together.

Listen carefully for bias. Some lawyers will tell you that you, as the dad, won't get primary custody. This may be their bias that they are perpetuating.

If you feel the lawyer is not listening to you, emphasize that you know what you want, and are looking for a lawyer who will strategize how to help you get there. Then have the lawyer explain that strategy.

If the strategy is: you will never get primary custody, then end the meeting and cross that lawyer off the list.

[ForeverDad]

You need to know your attorney knows the difference between negotiations and litigation.  Lawyers are most comfortable with settlements - supposedly no losers - but you need one who can attempt settlement mode while at the same time keeping the court case moving along so a transition from settlement mode to litigation mode isn't a restart.

Frankly, most cases (even ours) do end in settlements but our high conflict (or high drama) cases generally can't settle until nearing the end of the case, at he last minute "on the court house steps".  The other spouse is just too entitled, to controlling, too unreasonable until the stbEx can't delay, obstruct or manipulate  the system any longer.  Our divorces with children and custody issues generally take about 1 to 2 years, sometimes longer.  My lawyer estimated 7-9 months and it was nearly 2 years.

One reason it can take so long is that the stbEx manages to get a favorable temp order and so isn't in any hurry to unwind the marriage.  Another is that the desire for any contact, even negative engagement, is preferable to no contact.

So get the very best temp order you can get at the very first hearing, you're unlikely to get it modified before the final decree.  Think ahead about the most likely conflicts and have them addressed in the order.  The last thing you want is an temp order so vague with "mutually agreeable" and "reasonable" that the stbEx can stonewall or reinterpret them to mean anything he/she wants.  Those vague terms are there for a purpose, the courts want the parents to figure out the lesser details but it generally doesn't work in our cases, not while the stbEx is so entitled.

You need more than a forms filer and a hand holder, you need a problem solving, proactive, assertive lawyer who can both negotiate and switch to litigation in court when the need arises.

In the initial consultations definitely ask for their opinions, risks, benefits, possible strategies.  "In the multitude of counselors there exists wisdom."  There will be twists and turns in the case, you never know when the other perspectives might prove helpful.

One question you can ask, "If you were facing a high conflict case like mine, who would you use?"  The responses can help you build your short list.  Don't worry about hurting their feelings, this is their business, they know they won't get every case that walks in the door.

[ASD]

Wow, you guys are great.  Thanks. 

I had 2 appointments set up for today but cancelled them because I didn't think I should pay an initial consultation fee.  I have found others that don't charge and have 1 tomorrow.  I now have a good list of questions.

It's getting really tough at home because after telling me she has decided that we need a separation (in FL there is no such thing, but those are details she'll find out), this weekend she seemed to warm up and try to be good and win me over.  Today she realized that I have shut down to protect myself and now she's pissed again... .I need to move this along.  2 years seems like a lifetime of BS to endure.  Thanks for your insights.

[whirlpoollife]

Yes if the prospective L says its 50/50 for custody by judge (or mother gets custody) question that heavily as to why. But then look for an L that will fight for you no matter what. the county I'm in has a judge that is very 50/50... .unless kids are older and say where they want to live... .brainwashing can affect any age.

I would guess on the house that a L would say for you to stay and force her to leave because it's in your name.  my first L said for me not to leave because I then would be abandoning it and the children.

Second L, said no that would not have been the case.

In my state , anything owned prior to marriage is yours... .except for the increase in value ... .that is the marital property , even though it's in your name and your money that bought it.

Two properties , kids, expect this divorce to go longer than you think.

Don't trust her being nice right now. Get the needed documents out of the house. I was nice and left some and when I had to go away for a few days to take care of a sick parent and when I came back, much was missing.

Keep posting so the members here can give support. 

[maxen]

Wow, you guys are great.  Thanks. 

I had 2 appointments set up for today but cancelled them because I didn't think I should pay an initial consultation fee.  I have found others that don't charge and have 1 tomorrow.

I had 2 consultations, one charged, one didn't. If they charge, they should give you all the time you want, not just one hour. Of course go with the lawyer who seems best to you, but if a lawyer comes well recommended you might not want to avoid them on the basis of the fee.

[ForeverDad]

Dropping the lawyers who charge an initial consultation fee may be limiting your choices, for all you know they could have been excellent - or lousy.

I recall my divorce lawyer estimated my divorce at about $5K and 6-9 months.  Yes, quite low, but as a problem solving attorney, he really wanted to keep the costs down.  Once, when I was complaining about yet more issues with my ex, he quipped, ":)o you want a $5K divorce or a $30K divorce?"   Yes, I did have some issues that he let slide some of her poor but lesser behaviors, actions and inactions, but he did focus on the goals.  I didn't sum up all the costs but my divorce took almost 2 years and costs were somewhere midway between his two figures, probably $20-25K.  That's not counting 6 more years in and out of family court to get the order fixed again and again.

Getting multiple initial consultations are quite valuable but at minimal cost.  I would consider it money well spent.  You would be hearing comments, observations, warning and possible strategies from multiple local lawyers, all in a short time frame and without further obligations.  When you do choose a lawyer, he or she will want a substantial retainer, anywhere from $5K to $10K, with expectation of much more as the months pass, so you would want to be satisfied that you've spoken to enough to have chosen well.

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't know whether the lawyers with free consultations will be better or worse.  You don't know whether they will charge more or charge less over the course of the divorce.  Sadly, most of us have extended divorces.  Most here comment theirs took at least a year and often two years or more with children.  Lawyer fees can soar with multiple filings, hearings and negotiations.  You ought to be more concerned about the overall costs of potentially high conflict divorce than with a few one-time consultation fees.  There's no way to be sure one way or the other in advance, but saving a little money now may not be saving you money over the long haul.

[trappeddad]

Get the best temp order possible.    It's hard to fix that, especially if the kids do ok with that order.

[livednlearned]

Get the best temp order possible.    It's hard to fix that, especially if the kids do ok with that order.

This is excellent advice.

And so true.

It takes ten times the effort to try and modify the temporary order. Judges figure if you were ok with it in the interim, then you're ok with it in the long term, and aren't keen to change it -- because that means more adjustment for the kids.

[michel71]

I live in California. California is a community property state. Depending on the length of the marriage, you could get screwed. Mine is ending at about year 3. My uBPDw is entitled to her share of the community property interests for 1/2 of the marriage. Will she get a lawyer and go for the juggler? She said she won't but who knows. I  prefer mediation. It is cheaper. Yet a BPD person is not a typically reasonable person so depending on the level of disfunction, this suggestion might not work.

My uBPDw drained me of money. Told me it was MY FAULT for "giving" it to her. She knows what I DON'T HAVE.

I won't file for divorce until she starts making money. She is finishing up 4 months of school and then onto a great paycheck (RN). Of course she could file for divorce but she has her immigration issues to consider ( she is up for her permanent resident status). Puts a fly in the ointment if we are in the process of divorce. This extra time is convenient for me. She will be working. Pretty hard to get alimony if you are making close to 6 figures for a marriage lasting almost two years.

Divorce lawyers make a mint. They mostly want you to fight over issues as that equals more money for them. And I know lawyers well because I am a lawyer! But I say this to my lovely soon to be ex wife if she wants to fleece me... ."COME PLAY IN MY SANDBOX".

Good luck. Try mediation if you can.