He claims he filed for divorce

[unicorn2014]

Katecat, he says he filed and either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. He reminded me he's had these kinds of problem before. I'm going to assume he's telling the truth until I find out otherwise , which will be determined on Friday. I'm trying to stay away from the issue of accusing him of lying. I'm merely stating what my requirements are to move forward in the relationship . I really hope I can stand my ground if he doesn't give me what I ask for by Friday. We're just carrying on as if nothing is wrong and it makes me feel bad. We have an agreement not to talk about this until Friday so now I feel as if I'm preparing to say goodbye to the relationship. That's not good either. I really hope I don't have to put my foot down on Friday.

[formflier]

Unicorn2014,

I started to get back in this thread earlier... .but got sidetracked... .life with 8 kids can do that... .quite easily.

However... .I have been giving your situation a lot of thought... .especially since last thread I read (earlier today) was about your support system.

I'm now convinced that you have a good system... .and you have talked to plenty of people about this.

Do you believe that talking to more people about this situation will bring new ways of looking at it to light?

My input... .you've talked to plenty... .it seems that we are at a turning point... .a decision point... .

And... .the decision that you face on Friday will "clarify" a lot of things about your r/s. 

If he shows papers and they check out to be really filed... .then... .I think you can chalk it up to a messy divorce... .lots of details... maybe some avoidance of dealing with hard stuff.  But... .by and large... .if papers show up... .the big issue would seem to be ok.

If papers don't show up.  It's time to ask yourself the question... .":)id I have the r/s that I thought I had... ?"

Only you can answer that... .    And if you get to the point of answering that question... .please ignore what other people say or advise... .or want...

This is about you and your values...


The basis of most human relationships (IMO) is trust and mutual understanding of the "status" of the r/s.

Mutual understanding is (for example) both parties consider themselves boyfriend and girlfriend... .they are on the same page.

If one or the other of those get messed up... .that can be hard to recover from... .

If there is no trust... .and it becomes obvious that each party has had a very different "understanding" of what the r/s has been... .that is a tough place to recover a r/s from.   (there's not much to build on... )

You would be right to mourn in that situation... not for the r/s that you had... .but for the r/s you believed you had.

 

Hang in there... .

I'm hoping the papers show up...

FF

  It's going to be a huge loss if I have to put the brakes on the relationship and I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to handle it. 

[formflier]

I will fully admit to assuming he's lying. The concept of a "contested" divorce that doesn't appear in the county court record would be an utterly new one on me.

Let's clarify something... .

We are talking about a state and county in the United States... .correct?

I don't want to be assuming (there we go again... )        


You don't have to give the state and locality... if you don't want to.  

I've been a government guy for a long time... .if we are talking about the United States... .and it truly is a contested divorce... .it will show up.

Period... .

For your sake... .I would love to be wrong about this... .I've been in clerks offices... searched court records in many different states... .all kinds of stuff.  The records aren't that hard to find.

FF

[formflier]

I really hope I don't have to put my foot down on Friday.

Boudnaries lesson... .a very important point.

Get "hope" out of this.

This is a statement about what you deserve... .about how you value yourself.

Boundaries protect you!


"If on Friday there are no filed divorce papers I will show the world that I will not be in a r/s with a person that has been carrying on a deception"

You don't have to use my statement... .but coming up with something like that... .simple... .to the point... .no waffling... .is important.

It's important to figure this out before Friday... .so that your response is automatic on Friday.  If you show weakness... .it will be exploited.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you FF, I just have one kid, a teen, so I don't have that distraction.

Yes I'm preparing to let go of the relationship if I have to and I really don't want to do that. I'm having a hard time accepting that it took me three years to look him up on his county website to see if he filed or not. Three years ago I hadn't gone through two suicide attempts with him, verbal abuse, lying about smoking, possibly lying about drinking, dysregulation, etc. it's hard to not ask him "did the papers come in yet?".

And yes we're talking about the us. He claims he filed and either his lawyer or the county clerk didn't do their job. When I told him I was going to call the county clerk he told me didn't want me getting involved. It's very hard for me to sit on my hands and do nothing until Friday . It's his lawyer I really need to talk to and he won't give me the lawyer's name. I asked him to have his lawyer contact me and that hasn't happened yet either. I guess we're just going to carry on usual until Friday. This is very tense for me.

In terms of the boundary yes I do need to come up with a sentence. I'm going to ask him if he's going to give me what I asked for and if he doesn't then I'm going to have to tell him we're going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does. That's going to be difficult because we're connected in all kinds of ways all over the Internet . I really do not want to do this. We even follow each other on find friends and share calendars. Our lives are really intertwined .

It's funny you're not the first person to talk about what I deserve but for me it's not about that. It's about what I can live with that's in line with my values and my ethics.

[KateCat]

I'm having a hard time accepting that it took me three years to look him up on his county website to see if he filed or not. Three years ago I hadn't gone through two suicide attempts with him, verbal abuse, lying about smoking, possibly lying about drinking, dysregulation, etc.

Unicorn, you have nothing whatsoever to feel bad, or foolish about. These years of ongoing trauma made it very unlikely you would ever "check," I think. 

[formflier]

I'm going to ask him if he's going to give me what I asked for and if he doesn't then I'm going to have to tell him we're going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does.  

Hey... .there is an proper... .and improper use of boundaries... .

I wouldn't feel right if I didn't point out a concern with your proposed use.

What you propose sounds manipulative... . it's about the other person doing something.

Listen... .you don't control whether he files or not... .whether he stays or leaves his wife.  

All of those things are up to him.

Your value should no have anything to do with him.

"I will not be in a r/s with deception in it... "  

That's a simple statement... .and it supports your values.

Using a boundary to get someone else to do something... .can be manipulative.  

If he has really filed... .and he is just proving it to you... then I think you are ok.

If he hasn't filed... .then you know he is a deceiver.  That is his character... .filing the papers after getting busted won't change his character.

FF

[unicorn2014]

I'm having a hard time accepting that it took me three years to look him up on his county website to see if he filed or not. Three years ago I hadn't gone through two suicide attempts with him, verbal abuse, lying about smoking, possibly lying about drinking, dysregulation, etc.

Unicorn, you have nothing whatsoever to feel bad, or foolish about. These years of ongoing trauma made it very unlikely you would ever "check," I think. 

Thank you katecat, lately I've been showing him his old text messages where he's said some pretty awful things to me and he doesn't like that but I've been doing it in an attempt to set boundaries with him around texting and fighting which I will post about later.

I really appreciate your support. I'm really having a hard time with this. Like I said he's very intertwined with my life: friends, family, therapist, recovery, internet, etc. This is not going to be an easy break to take if I have to do that. I really hope I don't. We've had several borderline "break ups" where he's said some pretty awful things. I guess if I were to come up for a reason for doing this now it would be to show my daughter that there is a better way. She recently went through a very difficult breakup with her boyfriend and feel its my job to show her there is a better way to have relationships. So far I have not been successful. So let's just hope I get what I ask for on Friday.

[unicorn2014]

I'm going to ask him if he's going to give me what I asked for and if he doesn't then I'm going to have to tell him we're going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does.  

Hey... .there is an proper... .and improper use of boundaries... .

I wouldn't feel right if I didn't point out a concern with your proposed use.

What you propose sounds manipulative... . it's about the other person doing something.

Listen... .you don't control whether he files or not... .whether he stays or leaves his wife.  

All of those things are up to him.

Your value should no have anything to do with him.

"I will not be in a r/s with deception in it... "  

That's a simple statement... .and it supports your values.

Using a boundary to get someone else to do something... .can be manipulative.  

If he has really filed... .and he is just proving it to you... then I think you are ok.

If he hasn't filed... .then you know he is a deceiver.  That is his character... .filing the papers after getting busted won't change his character.

FF

FF he asked his wife to leave 3 years ago and they've been living apart since then. I understand what you are saying and I need to think really carefully about what I'm going to say. I'm not comfortable saying I won't be in a relationship with deception in it because he claims he filed those papers and that either his lawyer or the county clerk failed to do their jobs. I think I need to more phrase it along the lines of I can no longer be in a relationship with a married man who has not filed for divorce yet, I need to see proof before I can continue. I really want to stay away from accusing him of lying or deception. He has a learning disability so who knows what happened to those papers. I know what I need in a relationship and if I'm in a relationship with a married man, I need to see that he filed for divorce. Period. End of sentence. That's the ground I'm going to stand on. I am the one who allowed it to get to this point. I took him at his word that he filed. Now I need more then his word. He doesn't like this and  that's the way it goes.

[formflier]

  I took him at his word that he filed. Now I need more then his word. He doesn't like this and  that's the way it goes.

The thing is... .you will know on Friday if his word is good or not.

This is bigger than papers... .papers are symptom... .don't get focused on minutiae and details... .

I also would suggest that you consider your "fix"... .to get back in your good graces.

If it turns out that he has not filed for three years... .how does filing "fix' the deception?

If Friday comes and goes without papers... .it's not about the papers anymore... .

My suggestion would be so stay away until he finalizes things... .otherwise... .you will most likely be back here in a year or two talking about setting a trial date... .getting a final decree.

If it has taken three years to file... .how long do you expect the divorce to take?

I applaud you for wanting to live your values for your daughter... .

That is the right attitude.

If your daughter was in a relationship with a deceiver... .and she caught him... .would fixing the deception she caught him in solve the problem?

What would you want for your daughter?

What kind of person would you want to father your future grand-kids?

How can you model that for your daughter?

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, actually my daughter did catch her ex boyfriend in a deception so it's already happened to her.

I do see your point, if he has not filed at all I have a bigger problem on my hands then I thought. He did tell me it might go to arbitration so he doesn't have to go to court. If he does not have papers for me on Friday I will have to tell him I stayed with him for three years because I was under the impression that he filed and now that I've found out he hasn't I can't continue on. I really hope it doesn't come down to that. I'm definitely not prepared to go through another breakup. I broke up with my first husband, my daughter's father, because he was an alcoholic and an addict and had untreated bipolar. I really don't want to go down this road again. My former therapist said I've had the two most difficult male personalities to deal with: bipolar and borderline, it doesn't get much harder to deal with then that.

[patientandclear]

I think it's not established whether Unicorn's boundary is not being with a deceiver (she already knows he deceived her, at the outset of the r/ship, by denying he was married).

I personally think it's clear he has lied about the divorce filing also, because he told her the wife was "contesting" it and that's why it was taking so long, and there simply is no way to "contest" an unfiled divorce petition. Maybe that's clearer to me as a legal professional.

But the point is: it seems to me Unicorn has not decided WHAT her boundary is exactly--what is it about. Is it about his status of not having filed? Or is it about deception in the past? Or ongoing/future deception? Or any combination?

This makes a huge difference. I see assumptions that she is not willing to stay with a deceiver, but that doesn't sound like Unicorn's position. He has been known to be a deceiver for a long time, though that was one (big) instance (lying about being married).

Unicorn, I think you MUST figure this out before you take any stance on a "boundary." These are not the same boundaries.

If it were me, I think I'd opt for "I will resume a r/ship with you when you prove you have filed. And if you ever lie to me again I will walk away and not look back." That leaves out the issue of past and current deception. You may not feel comfortable with that. If you're not, I think that's what you have to be preparing for, because I am near certain he will prove to have deceiver you on this. What he's describing is not something that happens in the legal system.

[patientandclear]

Seeing your last post:

Please be aware that cases get arbitrated after they are filed, in general. The fact that arbitration avoids court does not mean the petition would not be filed.

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, he told me he didn't tell me he was married when he first met me because he didn't think he was married. He told me his wife had emotionally abandoned him years ago and they were living as roommates when I met him.

I can tell you I'm definitely not comfortable calling him a liar or a deceiver. That goes against my beliefs.

I need to see that he filed before I continue on with the relationship. I told him it was causing me a problem in my religious life and he understood this. I'm really trying to do this as peacefully as possible. I'm really not trying to create a big drama. It took the time it took for me to look up his divorce online and when I did I immediately took action. There's really not much more I can say then that. I certainly am not comfortable being the judge of his character.

[formflier]

  he claims he filed those papers and that either his lawyer or the county clerk failed to do their jobs.

I'm hoping some of the legal professionals on here can address this.

I've worked "with" and been involved with funding clerk of court operations in various locations... .but I have never actually worked in the clerks office.

Still we talk... .we hear about mistakes... .technicalities... .oddities... it comes up.

This applies if we are talking about whether or not something got filed on a particular date... .or if there was a delay because a computer system was down... .or staff was out sick... .or a security event closed a court building... .

I've heard of all those things... .they affected filing for perhaps a day... .perhaps... .

Folks... .we're discussing the possibility that a person has wanted a divorce... .instructed his lawyer to file... .

And that the lawyer and/or the clerk of court (or staff) did not follow through... .

That is preposterous... .

Am I off base here?

FF

[formflier]

he told me he didn't tell me he was married when he first met me because he didn't think he was married. 

Can you help me understand this?

FF

[unicorn2014]

Ff, I'm currently reading through the lessons and am on the one about codependency. It's a long one.

I'm reporting to you what my partner told me. He said he filed and either his lawyer didn't submit the papers or the county clerk didn't post them.

In terms of feeling emotionally abandoned by his wife: several years before I met him he had gotten in a serious accident and his wife walked away from him and didn't help him to recover. They had been living in separate rooms and cooking in separate areas when I met him. He told me that he didn't feel married to her and that she didn't act like a wife to him.

[patientandclear]

Yes, FF, it's pretty much not possible for the divorce filing/not filing to have unfold as he has recounted. I think there is a reason he is not wanting Unicorn to call the clerk and won't disclose the name of his lawyer despite the obvious stakes.

I would assume he could produce a divorce petition word-processed to show it was prepared on any date. I would not want Unicorn to think that means anything about whether the thing was actually prepared then.

But the key thing is that there are not these various stages of filing. It is filed, or it is not. One is in conversation with the lawyer one is supposedly paying about the status. One receives copies. Most important, if filed, it moves along. A scheduling order is set. There are deadlines. The lawyer talks with the client about these things. It doesn't just sit there. Nothing about this story is really possible, I regret to say.

I am a lawyer. I also lived through a contested divorce.

[unicorn2014]

Patient, I need to ask you what your objective is here. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with your posts on this thread. If your objective is to help me, I'm not feeling helped. My father is also a legal professional, it was his idea that I look it up in the first place. Even my father warned me against using you messages against my partner, such as you are a liar. I'm wondering what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Daniell85]

I think people are simply pointing out to you what is likely.

Your partner has not filed for a divorce. He has lied to you. Likely right now he is spinning in circles trying to figure out how to deal with his deadline, and wondering what you will do since he has been deceiving you and he is under the gun.

That isn't saying you should or need to call him a liar. He knows he is a liar.

You understand? He lied to you and has been perpetuating an emotional fraud against you in order to keep you with him.

It's a hard thing to face. It's really painful ( and I know it from experience) to suddenly have the light turned on and see very starkly that someone you love, who claimed to love you... would turn your life into a fabrication. It's your life.

You already said what you would do if it turns out he has lied to you.

You don't actually have to confront him and tell him he is a liar and deceiver. If that is what you mean when you say it's against your beliefs.

If what you mean is it is against your beliefs to have a relationship with a liar and a deceiver, then I guess you have some boundaries to enforce.

Hurts, I know. My boyfriend lies, too. It's becoming a flat out deal breaker.

[unicorn2014]

Danielle, some people are so sure he lied to me. I am not. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

It goes against my beliefs to call someone a liar or deceiver. I will simply ask him for the papers on Friday and if he is unable to produce I will tell him we need to break until he does. I've already told him this is a religious conflict for me and he understands that. Up until this time I was taking him at his word that he filed. Now that it looks like he hasn't I need to take action. We will see what happens. Thank you for being reasonable.

My partner doesn't have the power to turn my life until a lie.

[KateCat]

Unicorn,

I'm just certain that patientandclear is only trying to provide accurate information to you.

I'm not even an attorney, but just because I've had a position that required me to file literally hundreds and hundreds of family law "actions" with the clerk of the county court, I too felt the need to say what I believe to be 100% true: in the U.S., a divorce case is "worked" by and through the county clerk's office.

Now it's in your hands. It's very good that your father is in a position to help you with the next step: perhaps verifying that any documents you receive are genuine, and certainly helping you choose your words and your path forward.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn,

I'm just certain that patientandclear is only trying to provide accurate information to you.

I'm not even an attorney, but just because I've had a position that required me to file literally hundreds and hundreds of family law "actions" with the clerk of the county court, I too felt the need to say what I believe to be 100% true: in the U.S., a divorce case is "worked" by and through the county clerk's office.

Now it's in your hands. It's very good that your father is in a position to help you with the next step: perhaps verifying that any documents you receive are genuine, and certainly helping you choose your words and your path forward.

I know How divorce cases work, I myself am divorced. I do not think my partner is going to give me forged documents. I'm not going to go down that path of checking them out. Either they are stamped by the court or they are not. My dad definitely can help me choose my words and my path forward. It's very simple, if my partner can not prove to me that he filed for divorce then we have to take a break. I don't want to, it may be ugly, and it's what I have to do. I really don't want to be a parent without a partner again.

[pallavirajsinghani]

No, I don't think that he was lying when he said that he was not married... .because he believed that the essence of a relationship that defines being married was not present.

By the same token, the inverse is also true... .that you ARE his wife, because he believes that the essence of the relationship that defines being married is present.  This has allowed him to be such an intricate part of your life.

So, the real question is that YOU do not feel married to him, while he may feel already married to you.  You define the "married-hood" differently from him.

I think that there is a communication disconnect between you both that is causing an upheaval of this relationship.

He is talking about the substance of marriage, you are talking about the form.

I don't think that he is a liar or being immoral... .and I don't think that your expectations are immoral or unrealistic either.

So, with this... .only time can unravel a solution... .or he can with a decisive act or you can with a decisive act.

What that decisive act will be or should be noone on this board has a right to voice... .because for any of us to advice you or him as to whether to walk away or stay would be a violation of your personhood (and his).

What we can do and should do with complete commitment is support you with whichever direction your spirit is taking you to.

You point the finger, we will carry you there.

God Bless.

[Turkish]

Getting on the same page with both boundaries (which we can control) and values (which at some point are good to sync) are important in any relationship. Good discussion. However, this thread has reached its posting limit. Please feel free to start a new topic.

Turkish