It's been a while, but I'm back and in trouble

[JohnThorn]

Hey guys,

I'm reaching out because I don't know what to do.  I feel at the end of my rope and I feel absolutely driven insane.

My ex is an undiagnosed borderline. I know it's presumptuous to diagnose the partner your failed relationships as having a mental disorder.  But I am confident that she has this based on what I went through. We actually broke up well over a year ago.  And I remained in No Contact with her for over a year. But I NEVER forgot about her. Not a day went by where her memory didn't live inside me.  Some days were better than others.  But as life progressed and I realized that I was moving further and further away from a reconciliation with her, I became more and more obsessed with the idea that my life was just going totally wrong. 

In truth, anyone else who knows me would say that I am living a dream life. I have a great job for which I was just promoted. I am actually in a relationship with a new (and very healthy) woman.  We are actually about to celebrate our one year anniversary. And we live together in a beautiful place.  There was about a 6 month space between when my relationship with the uBPD ex ended and when I began to date my current girlfriend.

For the first few months of my relationship with my present gf, the thoughts of my borderline ex seemed to be getting better, less frequent and less emotionally potent.  But somehow, as different events in my relationship put us on an inevitable path towards a very serious relationship (we encountered deaths in family, financial burdens that forced us to move in together albeit premateurly for my comfort), I began to feel that the path I was taking in life was not the right one - I began to feel that I really HAD to be with my uBPD ex.  It was haunting me day and night - my dreams - my daydreams - my constant thoughts.  I had no place I could relax and feel good anymore.

I knew my uBPD ex for almost 10 years.  We started out as best friends. I loved her although I was always aware she had issues. She had a distinct feminine charm that I could sum up in the simple words "femme fatale".  She had this quality. Men would just "die" for this woman. It wasn't just that she was beautiful, but it was that she had this way of captivating. I would later - while in therapy - discover that much of the events that ensued between us  (and much of the captivation I experienced) was the work of a person with borderline. 

I won't get into all of the details of what went wrong - you've all been there anyway.  But needless to say - i ended up getting thrown to the curb (and after getting an STD from her).  Yes yes, it is clear there are some self esteem issues on my part to still pine for this unhealthy woman, but I feel a need to voice what I'm going through as I am living a horrible life internally now and maybe someone here could just shed some light on this.

In October of this year, I finally broke no contact with my uBPD ex.  We ended very badly a while, but in a matter of minutes, we were speaking to eachother as if no time had passed. The romance was still there. The spark was still there.  She was presently exitting one bad relationship (the guy she left me for) and enterring a new one (a guy she told me reminded her of me).  Over the course of a few days I became aware as to how much life growth she had undergone.  She was now in school working on a degree she always wanted.  She seemed healthier and she seemed happier.  I mostly felt happy she was doing so well. I cried a bit that week. She admitted that hardships she and I went through taught her a lot about who she was and what to work on. But she refused to admit the borderline diagnosis.  However toward the middle of our week-long facebook engagement, she started to get expressively jealous (not with regard to my current gf who she claimed was not up to my usual standards physically), but because she discovered I was friends on facebook with another girl who she felt competitive with.  She started acting all insanely jealous again . I have to admit, watching her get jealous like that was an instant high for me.  But all in all, it reminded me that the borderline behavior was still there and I'd be kidding myself to believe it was gone. 

In the course of this week, I told my ex I was still in love with her. I told her I would leave everything to be with her (something I'm not even sure I could even do if I wanted to). At some points she admitted that she felt the same way for me. But then the admission was quickly withdrawn.  On Halloween day, I ended up planniing a face to face meeting with her.  We sat and talked for a few hours.  It was one of the most overwhelming experiences of my life.  There she was.  No longer in my dreams, but right there in front of me.  And the guilt I was feeling to be sitting there while my girlfirend sat at home not knowing what I was doing was much of what overwhelmed me. I do love my present girlfriend and I appreciate who she is.  Toward the end of my meeting with my uBPD ex, I touched her leg (it was the only physical contact I made with her except for a brief hug at the beginning).  When I touched her leg, she instantly became aroused and without getting into much detail, it was made known to me that she wanted very badly to go somewhere and have sex at that moment.  I rejected her and I said I could never go home to my girlfiriend if I were to do that.  And what's weird, I didn't even want to have sex at that moment. I felt like my whole life was imploding and sex was the last thing on my mind. Following our meeting, I asked her to block me if she really didn't want to reconcile.

She didn't want to reconcile.  She told me she wanted to try with this new guy (who reminded her of me) with whom she had no bad history.  But she didn't block me despite my pleas.  She is very aware that I am obsessed with her. I think part of her does enjoy that. But another part of her is totally mortified by it. Of course I am only guessing.  I proceeded to message her daily, songs that I'd written for her. After about a week of no responses she finally blasted me with this HUGE outpouring which if I were to simplify read like this "LEAVE ME THE F ALONE, YOU'RE INSANE"

Following this , I stopped messaging her.  But shortly thereafter, I began to see that she was listening to my music on soundcloud almost every day. She doesn't know I can see she's listening.  Then a few days later, I saw that she friended one of my friends on facebook with whom we have a tumultuous history when he was previously involved in our relationship. I took it as a sign to cause a reaction in me.

This leads me to today. I messaged her this morning after perpetual obsessive thoughts have overtaken me. 

I feel very badly for my girlfriend. I treat her very well and I am very loving to her. And it is not fake love.  I would say as I am clearly unhealthy and addicted to my ex I am not in love with my girlfriend, but I truly like who she is.  I wish I WAS in love with her. I wish we weren't in a situation which would steamroll our life if I were to leave her. If I were to leave her now, I would be instantly homeless and without a job.  We work together and live together and are financially codependent. 

I feel very sick. I have been in therapy for two years. Much of the therapy has been discussing this obsession and the events of my life which led to my relationship with uBPD ex.  I have just started seeing a psychiatrist, though both my therapsit and the psychiatrist are convinced this is behavioral issue and not chemical. 

Any words of wisdom. I need as much help as I can get.

[troisette]

My heartfelt sympathy to you, I guess you are describing what we all fear.

I'm not experienced enough to offer any comment apart from asking if you have researched neuroplasty? The concept that you can change responses in certain areas of the brain with specific forms of therapy.

My best wishes to you and good luck.

[juniorswailing]

This was posted the other day by MUTT and I think it says a lot about why relationships are revisited.

2. Let go of the fantasy.

Many people don’t realize that a large majority of the pain they experience during a break-up has nothing to do with the relationship they really had. Relationships always end for a reason. It is rarely a complete surprise because things generally haven’t been going well for a while. There is often a long list of what each person did or didn’t do that led to all the fighting and hurt feelings. Most people don’t want back the relationship they actually had. What they mourn for is the relationship they thought they could have had if things had just been different. But the truth is, that relationship didn’t exist. Letting go of a dream can be painful. When the relationship first started there were expectations set for what it could be based on the good things that seemed to be unfolding at the time. Almost all relationships are great in the beginning—otherwise they would have never started—but the whole of a relationship is what it was from beginning to end.

Because our mind is trying to heal our heart, the painful memories often get shifted to the background and we find ourselves remembering and longing for the good times. We forget who the person really was and idealize who we wanted them to be. A good strategy for getting past these moments is to simply write down every painful thing you can remember happening during the relationship and read it over to yourself while making the effort to vividly recall those memories until the painful feelings subside. The point here isn’t to stay angry, but to remember the full truth of why the relationship ended. Eventually, letting go of these events will be an important part of the forgiveness and healing process, but in order to let go of something you must first acknowledge and accept that it happened.

[JohnThorn]

My heartfelt sympathy to you, I guess you are describing what we all fear.

I'm not experienced enough to offer any comment apart from asking if you have researched neuroplasty? The concept that you can change responses in certain areas of the brain with specific forms of therapy.

My best wishes to you and good luck.

Thank you

[JohnThorn]

This was posted the other day by MUTT and I think it says a lot about why relationships are revisited.

2. Let go of the fantasy.

Many people don’t realize that a large majority of the pain they experience during a break-up has nothing to do with the relationship they really had. Relationships always end for a reason. It is rarely a complete surprise because things generally haven’t been going well for a while. There is often a long list of what each person did or didn’t do that led to all the fighting and hurt feelings. Most people don’t want back the relationship they actually had. What they mourn for is the relationship they thought they could have had if things had just been different. But the truth is, that relationship didn’t exist. Letting go of a dream can be painful. When the relationship first started there were expectations set for what it could be based on the good things that seemed to be unfolding at the time. Almost all relationships are great in the beginning—otherwise they would have never started—but the whole of a relationship is what it was from beginning to end.

Because our mind is trying to heal our heart, the painful memories often get shifted to the background and we find ourselves remembering and longing for the good times. We forget who the person really was and idealize who we wanted them to be. A good strategy for getting past these moments is to simply write down every painful thing you can remember happening during the relationship and read it over to yourself while making the effort to vividly recall those memories until the painful feelings subside. The point here isn’t to stay angry, but to remember the full truth of why the relationship ended. Eventually, letting go of these events will be an important part of the forgiveness and healing process, but in order to let go of something you must first acknowledge and accept that it happened.

Thank you. I have done this in the past. Maybe I need to do it again

One thing I keep replaying in my head is that she remarked to me recently that she "knew [she] wasn't borderline because in her present relationship [which was about to end] [she] exhibited no jealousy."  She went on to say "I had no problems if he liked other women. We even talked about having threesomes."  For some reason, with me, even just being served by a female waitress, was a fight waiting to happen. She broke up with me every other day over jealousy.  Her recent breakup, the man physically abused her and she claimed to fear him, but ultimately was very attracted to him.

For the record, when I was with my ex, there was no other woman I desired... .it was all in her head. Even on our worst days, there was no one else I wanted to be close to.

[cosmonaut]

Well, let's start with the bigger issue: your current relationship.  You've been cheating.  You know this.  You feel badly about it, because you know it's wrong.  This is the first step.  You have made a commitment to someone - someone you now say that you realize you do not love.  :)o you think that she deserves to know this?  You've said that your personal finances and living situation would be affected, but how is this affecting her?  What are her interests here?

My advice would be that you need some time alone.  I think you are very much on the right track that you could benefit from working on these issues in therapy.  What led you into your current relationship?  What led to the breakdown of your last relationship?  What is it inside of you that is driving this, as you put it, obsession with your ex?  These are important questions, and they will be very important for you to be able to move forward in any future relationship.  It's worth taking some time to do this self examination.

[troisette]

Addendum: apologies, I meant to type "neuroplasticity". The concept that areas of the brain remain plastic, and can be changed, even in adulthood. 

[JohnThorn]

Well, let's start with the bigger issue: your current relationship.  You've been cheating.  You know this.  You feel badly about it, because you know it's wrong.  This is the first step.  You have made a commitment to someone - someone you now say that you realize you do not love.  :)o you think that she deserves to know this?  You've said that your personal finances and living situation would be affected, but how is this affecting her?  What are her interests here?

My advice would be that you need some time alone.  I think you are very much on the right track that you could benefit from working on these issues in therapy.  What led you into your current relationship?  What led to the breakdown of your last relationship?  What is it inside of you that is driving this, as you put it, obsession with your ex?  These are important questions, and they will be very important for you to be able to move forward in any future relationship.  It's worth taking some time to do this self examination.

Actually, I do love my present girlfriend. And I say that in my original post. I am not in love with her. How could I be while I'm going through all this obsession. I have told my girlfriend that I feel something is missing. Originally I thought it was that our sex did not live up to the sex I had with my uBPDex. But it's much more than that. I'm just not well. My gf knows I'm in therapy. And I discuss my depressed feelings with her without saying anything about my ex. Part of me hopes I can overcome my obsession and be happy with her. Because we have all the hallmarks of a good relationship. All the bad is coming from this obsessive fantasy. I haven't technically cheated. Though of course I have emotionally cheated enough that I too would leave the relationship if I knew.

[Little oak]

Hi john,my I can relate to what you are experiencing. I've been separated for a year from my ex,I tried for a few months and then gave up hope. I went on to meet a beautiful woman and had a wonderful few months with her... .everything was fantastic and she understood me as we had dated previously so we're familiar with each other. She was everything most men would want but there came a time where thoughts of u BPD ex would creep into my mind. As hard as I tried to shut them out I couldn't. When my ex found out I was in a new relationship all hell broke loose but me and the new lady talked and got through it but as time went by my heart was still with my ex. I feel I carried too many issues with me into new relationship and I had to end it... .I,just like you expressed my feelings to u BPD ex,she had children who I was very fond of. The problem is when your heart still longs for the other person we put everything at risk with the hope of it working out,but we still feel the need to try which logically we know will jeopardise everything. I knew what the eventual outcome would be but still had a moment of maybe things would be different... .in short u BPD ex wanted to be friends then didn't and I have now finally given up. There was no positive outcome apart from a hurt and upset lady who didn't deserve to be involved in the mess. No good can come of it John but we tend to be driven by our hearts and not our minds,deep down we know there is no positive outcome but still hold out hope something will be different... .and I'm sorry but it won't be

[C.Stein]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, until you get to that side and realize it was dead grass painted green.  By the time you realize this you will also realize you left behind grass that was alive and a true green ... .but then it will be too late.

[guy4caligirl]

John thorn

What you're going through is torture , To yourself only , no one else . I feel very bad for you ,we all hurt due to the poison they injected in us , and as long as we activate if it will surface quick . Femme fatale , fatale means Deadly .I am sure you know mine was also, I understand what you went trough... .

No easy way out , I think you need a time alone like someone suggested before a good friend's company a mom perhaps .

You might want to pour your attention and love in your actual relationship you could loose her ,if she knew you're still in love with your ex ,good girls are hard to find.

You know right from wrong ... .

What path would you rather take ?

[cosmonaut]

Actually, I do love my present girlfriend. And I say that in my original post. I am not in love with her. How could I be while I'm going through all this obsession. I have told my girlfriend that I feel something is missing. Originally I thought it was that our sex did not live up to the sex I had with my uBPDex. But it's much more than that. I'm just not well. My gf knows I'm in therapy. And I discuss my depressed feelings with her without saying anything about my ex. Part of me hopes I can overcome my obsession and be happy with her. Because we have all the hallmarks of a good relationship. All the bad is coming from this obsessive fantasy. I haven't technically cheated. Though of course I have emotionally cheated enough that I too would leave the relationship if I knew.

I think you are right in saying that you are not well.  It takes courage to see that, and even more to address it.  So, I congratulate you.  This could be a very important moment in your life, but I do think this is a road you will need to walk alone.  You are in no condition to be dating anyone right now.  I'm not judging you for that.  Lots of people have rushed into a new relationship before they have really settled their old relationship.  This is exponentially so when we are as traumatized as a relationship involving BPD tends to leave us.

You've more than technically cheated, John.  You've told another woman, behind your partner's back, that you are in love with her.  That's cheating.  Cheating doesn't require sex.  So, let's deal with it.  That's what you really want.  That's why you are asking for help, right?  Because this is eating you alive.  So, how do you want to stop it?  I would recommend taking some time off from dating.  Spend some time alone.  Work on yourself.  It doesn't have to be that way, however.  You could maintain your current relationship and swear off any further contact with your ex (can you trust yourself to do this?).  You could also break things off with your current partner and see if anything can come of your relationship with your ex.  That would be the option I would recommend least, but it is your decision.  This is your life, and it's your call.

I understand how damaging these relationships can be, and how long the pain can linger.  The wounds can go very, very deep.  That's why all of us are here.  We understand.  Keep posting and let everyone here help you to work through this.  We're here for you.

[Schermarhorn]

Well, let's start with the bigger issue: your current relationship.  You've been cheating.  You know this.  You feel badly about it, because you know it's wrong.  This is the first step.  You have made a commitment to someone - someone you now say that you realize you do not love.  :)o you think that she deserves to know this?  You've said that your personal finances and living situation would be affected, but how is this affecting her?  What are her interests here?

My advice would be that you need some time alone.  I think you are very much on the right track that you could benefit from working on these issues in therapy.  What led you into your current relationship?  What led to the breakdown of your last relationship?  What is it inside of you that is driving this, as you put it, obsession with your ex?  These are important questions, and they will be very important for you to be able to move forward in any future relationship.  It's worth taking some time to do this self examination.

Actually, I do love my present girlfriend. And I say that in my original post. I am not in love with her. How could I be while I'm going through all this obsession. I have told my girlfriend that I feel something is missing. Originally I thought it was that our sex did not live up to the sex I had with my uBPDex. But it's much more than that. I'm just not well. My gf knows I'm in therapy. And I discuss my depressed feelings with her without saying anything about my ex. Part of me hopes I can overcome my obsession and be happy with her. Because we have all the hallmarks of a good relationship. All the bad is coming from this obsessive fantasy. I haven't technically cheated. Though of course I have emotionally cheated enough that I too would leave the relationship if I knew.

I have been dating a new girl and I feel sorta the same way. My feelings towards her are not nearly as strong, but I think that is how it is supposed to be. The longer I have been with her, my feelings are slowly getting stronger. I am also happy when I'm near her. With my ex it was 0-100 in 1 second, and we were fighting 90% of the time.

I don't think the feeling we had with our ex was love. It is an addiction, and you need to treat it as such. You need to think hard if this "high" is worth losing a potential loving partner. You will never get close to a pwBPD, and you will be stuck feeling like this until you die. (or she discards you for good)

Go to the staying board and ask if anybody would've regret having a clean escape from their pwBPD SO. The more you have to do with them, the more they will ruin your life. If you let her, she will.

[shatra]

Then a few days later, I saw that she friended one of my friends on facebook with whom we have a tumultuous history when he was previously involved in our relationship. I took it as a sign to cause a reaction in me.

-----I take it as a sign she is triangulating you... .involving a third person (facebook friend) as a connection to you. Also, does this person post about you often? She could be looking to stay in "touch" with you by having that friend

----With your focusing on her, and by you returning to her (push pull) is it possible you have some borderline traits yourself?

------Did she say she would have contacted you to reunite, if you had not contacted her?  She said she has been thinking of you a lot, when you contacted her. Was she going to eventually do the push pull and contact you?

[Kelli Cornett]

I can't believe you would act like this when you have a GF.


Like jeez! Maybe be single for a while... .you sound like you still have a lot going on.

[troisette]

My mindset shifted slightly when I accepted that it was not love but an addiction. That I should not romanticise my feelings but consider my ex like an alcoholic regards a bottle of gin, a drug addict a bag of heroin. It put my feelings in a healthier frame. Thinking of him as my addictive substance that is unhealthy. Altered my perspective, not completely but healthier.

Then I started considering why I was addicted... .this led to some therapy based on neuroplasticity. I'm not there yet but I can feel changes.

[JohnThorn]

A lot of you have suggested I break up with my current girlfriend, but it's not so simple.  I would need to completely alter my own life and hers in ways that would require serious planning.  It would be like walking away from a marriage.  I'm not ready to do that. I don't even know that I would want to especially if I am to be convinced that what I am experiencing is an addiction/obsession and not love.  When we first started dating, the compulsions to still be involved with my ex were not obvious to me.  I was convinced I had hit the jackpot with my current girlfriend, a feeling I still have.  She is a strong person, with good character, very beautiful and also kind.  She outclasses my uBPD ex in most ways, but there was just something about my uBPD ex which made me feel very connected.  Connected on a level that I have never felt with another person. I know a lot of what I have done inside is idealize my ex.  Like virtually everyone else here, the chemistry I had with my ex was most felt (and most missed) in the sex.  I don't feel as sexually attracted to my current girlfriend. I don't believe this has anything to do with physical appearance. It's just something is missing in comparison to what my ex made me feel both on a physical level and emotional level.  And it has resulted in me perpetually feeling loss and questioning my feelings for her.  But in the end, as I have sought therapy in many different avenues, I have been made to address my feelings for my ex as an addiction.

I can't believe you would act like this when you have a GF.


Like jeez! Maybe be single for a while... .you sound like you still have a lot going on.

I took a bit of offense here. I didn't have to share any of my story here, but I did because of the stress it brings on.  I am not proud or happy to be deceiving my girlfriend. I wouldn't do this if there were not other variables at play such as financial codependency due to a joint lease and the fact that we work together.  I feel very badly and I felt your initial comment there (which of course is something I've thought myself about myself) is a bit dismissive of the idea that I didn't walk into this relationship with the same baggage in my consciousness that I presently have. It grew and it was not me trying to be deceptive.  Perhaps something is missing in my present relationship that is only heightening my desire for my ex.  My therapist seems to believe that I am repelled by healthy love and healthy feelings and attracted to the highs and lows of borderline-dom.  Either way, I am working through it.  For a while I thought I had borderline myself, especially due to this deception.  I haven't had an easy time living with it.  But according to my therapist I do not exhibit signs of borderline, but rather that of addiction and OCD.  And that in his view my obsession with my ex is nothing more than one of many addictions I have, and it is the most prominent one at this time due to the OCD I apparently have.  Either way it's terrible and wrongful and I feel terrible.  But I just wanted to address that I think whatever one says in a time of distress should be met with a bit more care that to say "i can't believe you would act this way when you have a gf".  At least I think so.  Most people who cheat or are of borderline personality traits wouldn't feel enough guilt or emotional burden to take the time to post here about it.  I still have not yet admitted to myself that I have cheated. I don't think it matters what one calls it in the end. To me cheating requires physical contact of a romantic or sexual kind.  I don't think it makes it any less hurtful that I told another woman I am in love with her.  And there's a bit of semantical rhetoric on my end to argue the point, but I still feel, that I had enough self control NOT to cheat. And it's something I'm actually proud of despite the many many things I am not proud of.

[troisette]

A thoughtful and well-reasoned post John. And I agree, we don't post in order to receive stringent judgements on our responses to difficult and distressing emotions.

[Kelli Cornett]

A lot of you have suggested I break up with my current girlfriend, but it's not so simple.  I would need to completely alter my own life and hers in ways that would require serious planning.  It would be like walking away from a marriage.  I'm not ready to do that. I don't even know that I would want to especially if I am to be convinced that what I am experiencing is an addiction/obsession and not love.  When we first started dating, the compulsions to still be involved with my ex were not obvious to me.  I was convinced I had hit the jackpot with my current girlfriend, a feeling I still have.  She is a strong person, with good character, very beautiful and also kind.  She outclasses my uBPD ex in most ways, but there was just something about my uBPD ex which made me feel very connected.  Connected on a level that I have never felt with another person. I know a lot of what I have done inside is idealize my ex.  Like virtually everyone else here, the chemistry I had with my ex was most felt (and most missed) in the sex.  I don't feel as sexually attracted to my current girlfriend. I don't believe this has anything to do with physical appearance. It's just something is missing in comparison to what my ex made me feel both on a physical level and emotional level.  And it has resulted in me perpetually feeling loss and questioning my feelings for her.  But in the end, as I have sought therapy in many different avenues, I have been made to address my feelings for my ex as an addiction.

I can't believe you would act like this when you have a GF.


Like jeez! Maybe be single for a while... .you sound like you still have a lot going on.

I took a bit of offense here. I didn't have to share any of my story here, but I did because of the stress it brings on.  I am not proud or happy to be deceiving my girlfriend. I wouldn't do this if there were not other variables at play such as financial codependency due to a joint lease and the fact that we work together.  I feel very badly and I felt your initial comment there (which of course is something I've thought myself about myself) is a bit dismissive of the idea that I didn't walk into this relationship with the same baggage in my consciousness that I presently have. It grew and it was not me trying to be deceptive.  Perhaps something is missing in my present relationship that is only heightening my desire for my ex.  My therapist seems to believe that I am repelled by healthy love and healthy feelings and attracted to the highs and lows of borderline-dom.  Either way, I am working through it.  For a while I thought I had borderline myself, especially due to this deception.  I haven't had an easy time living with it.  But according to my therapist I do not exhibit signs of borderline, but rather that of addiction and OCD.  And that in his view my obsession with my ex is nothing more than one of many addictions I have, and it is the most prominent one at this time due to the OCD I apparently have.  Either way it's terrible and wrongful and I feel terrible.  But I just wanted to address that I think whatever one says in a time of distress should be met with a bit more care that to say "i can't believe you would act this way when you have a gf".  At least I think so.  Most people who cheat or are of borderline personality traits wouldn't feel enough guilt or emotional burden to take the time to post here about it.  I still have not yet admitted to myself that I have cheated. I don't think it matters what one calls it in the end. To me cheating requires physical contact of a romantic or sexual kind.  I don't think it makes it any less hurtful that I told another woman I am in love with her.  And there's a bit of semantical rhetoric on my end to argue the point, but I still feel, that I had enough self control NOT to cheat. And it's something I'm actually proud of despite the many many things I am not proud of.

I'll just be real. You seem a bit narcissistic. And seem to pine for you BPD supply because she probably worshipped you and your current girlfriend "loves you" but that isn't what deep deep down what you crave.

I hope you learn to give and receive love one day. It's great you are in therapy. I'm sure you will take offensive to the bluntness of it but no one else was going say it.


Good luck 

[Little oak]

I think you are being unfair to you current partner,hey I've done it too... .felt there was something missing when the reality was I hadn't processed the breakup before entering new relationship. I won't criticise you John I'm sure things are hard enough for you right now. For me my only option was to break off my new relationship and go nc with my BPD ex,I'm hoping that in time I can unravel and self examine myself without entering into a relationship that I'm not fully able to commit to,perhaps that's something to consider. At times I felt I missed the drama and 'excitement' of my BPD relationship and my new girlfriend was too easy and reliable... .you didn't physically cheat but you instigated things with the ex and you are still drawn to her. That's not healthy and whilst they have issues we also need to look at ourselves and be honest about why we are drawn to them

[cosmonaut]

I'll just be real. You seem a bit narcissistic. And seem to pine for you BPD supply because she probably worshipped you and your current girlfriend "loves you" but that isn't what deep deep down what you crave.

I hope you learn to give and receive love one day. It's great you are in therapy. I'm sure you will take offensive to the bluntness of it but no one else was going say it.


Good luck 

Over the line, B&B.  We're here to support, and yes sometimes that means telling some hard truths, but you're being insulting.  There's no evidence that John is narcissistic.  In fact, I hear great pain and confusion in his post.  It takes courage to admit something like he is doing.  He's aware that what he is doing is not compatible with his morals and he's struggling with that.  If this is triggering for you, then it's best to step away.

[troisette]

To describe someone as "a bit narcissistic" when they are in the throes of emotional confusion, and therefore sharing their natural introspection, is unfair. It sounds like a shoot from the hip judgement.

Yes, it is only fair to consider your current girlfriend John and I also take into consideration the practical difficulties of your life.

Addicted to unhealthy love? Yes, that strikes a chord for me. I've experienced that and am only just learning the reasons for it, rooted in my childhood. I understand how difficult it can be to resolve deeply-rooted patterns of response, and they can be changed.

However you go forward, please address the addiction to your ex. She's not good for you. Simple to type, not easy to put into practice but please try.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I am a big believer in that the mind should always be free and the actions should always be disciplined.  I have been happily married for 21 years to a drop dead gorgeous, fantastic man.  Still I obsessed over the love I lost for a major portion of this time.  Recently this feeling eroded... .and not the dream lover's stature is down to an ordinary man that I vaguely knew.

What brought the change was when my own relationship within myself became strong.  I discovered my voice... .I discovered my strength, I discovered my limitations.  I discovered freedom.

It is ok to obsess, dream, imagine... .it's ok to change certain people to symbols.

What we have lost in the modern civilization is certain types of traditions and rituals.  For example, certain people, places or items symbolise for ourselves forces that are bigger than ourselves.  They are like a conduit into another world.  It is a power that WE grant to them.  It is NOT a power that they actually have.

I will give a mundane example of this phenomenon... .the example is not meant to trivialize the significance of what you are going through.  Let us take a rabbit foot as an example.  Many people used to carry it as a good luck charm.  The rabbit foot in itself has no power to ward off bad things.  It is an item that has been granted a power by the holder, by the owner.  In itself, it has no power.  Same can be said of the cross, the rosary, the favorite team shirt one wears during a sports match that one hopes to win... .

Similarly, she is symbolic to you of a dream world, of ecstacy, of wonder, of magic, of fantasy.  She brings out this yearning inside of you.  It's ok to grant her this power.  She is the battery that will help you operate at higher and better levels.  Instead of denying her significance and undermining her influence in your life, I would suggest that you talk to your therapist as to how to harness this energy to do something creative, learn a new skill... .utilize her influence on you well... .just as I learned how to use my own residual feels for the love lost into creating a wonderful marital relationship.

Be glad that you feel this way, be aware that she is only a symbol of your yearning... .that she is only a conduit,  not a destination, and above all... .she only has this power because you are in charge and have granted this power to her. 

Use this... .use this well... .without guilt.

God Bless.

[C.Stein]

John, perhaps if you can identify why you still have these feelings for your ex, the deeply connected feelings and bond you feel, you can also identify why you don't have these feelings with your current GF.

Consider maybe you are holding back bonding at this level with your current GF, not because you believe you can only get it with your ex, but rather because you are scared to open yourself up to your current GF at the level you would need to establish that intense deep bond.

I know all too well about the intensity of that deep bond.  I had it with my ex and had never experienced anything quite like it in my life.  One of the reasons for this deep bond was because I opened myself up to her like no other woman.  I allowed myself to develop that deep bond and love for her.  I let her into my heart.  There was only one other woman in my life that came close to the depth of the bond I formed with her.  It truly was an earth shattering type of connection.

I might suggest you look into yourself and try to discover why you are unable to open yourself up to your current GF on the same level as you did with your ex.

[Kelli Cornett]

I'm sorry.

I know it's hard to judge ourselves accurately but it's for the best so we can recgonize what we real are and what the issues are.


That's how someone gets better.

[JohnThorn]

A lot of you have suggested I break up with my current girlfriend, but it's not so simple.  I would need to completely alter my own life and hers in ways that would require serious planning.  It would be like walking away from a marriage.  I'm not ready to do that. I don't even know that I would want to especially if I am to be convinced that what I am experiencing is an addiction/obsession and not love.  When we first started dating, the compulsions to still be involved with my ex were not obvious to me.  I was convinced I had hit the jackpot with my current girlfriend, a feeling I still have.  She is a strong person, with good character, very beautiful and also kind.  She outclasses my uBPD ex in most ways, but there was just something about my uBPD ex which made me feel very connected.  Connected on a level that I have never felt with another person. I know a lot of what I have done inside is idealize my ex.  Like virtually everyone else here, the chemistry I had with my ex was most felt (and most missed) in the sex.  I don't feel as sexually attracted to my current girlfriend. I don't believe this has anything to do with physical appearance. It's just something is missing in comparison to what my ex made me feel both on a physical level and emotional level.  And it has resulted in me perpetually feeling loss and questioning my feelings for her.  But in the end, as I have sought therapy in many different avenues, I have been made to address my feelings for my ex as an addiction.

I can't believe you would act like this when you have a GF.


Like jeez! Maybe be single for a while... .you sound like you still have a lot going on.

I took a bit of offense here. I didn't have to share any of my story here, but I did because of the stress it brings on.  I am not proud or happy to be deceiving my girlfriend. I wouldn't do this if there were not other variables at play such as financial codependency due to a joint lease and the fact that we work together.  I feel very badly and I felt your initial comment there (which of course is something I've thought myself about myself) is a bit dismissive of the idea that I didn't walk into this relationship with the same baggage in my consciousness that I presently have. It grew and it was not me trying to be deceptive.  Perhaps something is missing in my present relationship that is only heightening my desire for my ex.  My therapist seems to believe that I am repelled by healthy love and healthy feelings and attracted to the highs and lows of borderline-dom.  Either way, I am working through it.  For a while I thought I had borderline myself, especially due to this deception.  I haven't had an easy time living with it.  But according to my therapist I do not exhibit signs of borderline, but rather that of addiction and OCD.  And that in his view my obsession with my ex is nothing more than one of many addictions I have, and it is the most prominent one at this time due to the OCD I apparently have.  Either way it's terrible and wrongful and I feel terrible.  But I just wanted to address that I think whatever one says in a time of distress should be met with a bit more care that to say "i can't believe you would act this way when you have a gf".  At least I think so.  Most people who cheat or are of borderline personality traits wouldn't feel enough guilt or emotional burden to take the time to post here about it.  I still have not yet admitted to myself that I have cheated. I don't think it matters what one calls it in the end. To me cheating requires physical contact of a romantic or sexual kind.  I don't think it makes it any less hurtful that I told another woman I am in love with her.  And there's a bit of semantical rhetoric on my end to argue the point, but I still feel, that I had enough self control NOT to cheat. And it's something I'm actually proud of despite the many many things I am not proud of.

I'll just be real. You seem a bit narcissistic. And seem to pine for you BPD supply because she probably worshipped you and your current girlfriend "loves you" but that isn't what deep deep down what you crave.

I hope you learn to give and receive love one day. It's great you are in therapy. I'm sure you will take offensive to the bluntness of it but no one else was going say it.


Good luck 

POST 1/2

I definitely have some narcissistic qualities.  It's not something I like about myself. I am not a classic narcissist, but there are fundamental aspects of who I am that I don't like much and I'm sure much of my attraction to a BPD comes from them filling the void.

I take your respponse as angry as it sounds to suggest that something about what I'm saying has angered you on a personal level and you may be feeling that I am resembling someone from within your life.  For that I am sorry.  

To suggest that I want to be worshipped and not loved, more or less... .whether you're right or wrong, this forum is the place where everyone with a significant other has straddled that exact fence.  I think anyone who ever gave a damn about their borderline partner overlooked the lack of healthy love (or maybe didn't even see it at the time) and were stuck in a moment where their partner idealized them.  So to say that is to be correct to some extent.

There's a lot more to my story and I feel compelled to share it on the basis that I think it sheds light.  Maybe it would help someone too.  I certainly didn't walk into this relationship in order to hurt anyone.

I knew my uBPD ex for 6 years when she fell back in my life.  We had a brief sexual encounter many years prior and I really liked her after years of friendship.  But shortly after this encounter, we had a faling out.  I was out of her life for 4 years.  I had moved on "completely."  I was with someone else for three years during this time.  And I didn't exactly pine for my uBPD ex as she wasn't truly my ex.  I don't believe I was ever idealized at that time, but I cared about her.  She abused our friendship and lied a lot to me.  

In 2013, she came to one of my gigs (I'm a musician) with a mutual friend.  I was still in a relationship with my gf at the time.  For one reason or another, my relationship with my gf had gotten very sour.  We had been through several breakups, but were still holding on to the memory. My gf at the time was not borderline at all, but had other serious issues which effected our relationship, as did I. So I saw my uBPD ex-hookup (let's call it that at this time).  And she gave me this look which we will call "total idealization eyes".  You know those eyes.  I didn't like the relataionship I was in anymore and seeing my uBPD ex-hookup was a quick reminder of how unhappy I was.  

I didn't stay in touch with the uBPD-exHU after the show.  But I knew she wanted to be in my life and probably with me.  I can't say I tried to work things out with my gf at the time, but we stayed together about a month more.  Eventually, after she was extremely critical of my mother and said some things I found unforgivable, I broke up with her permanently.  I waited about 6 weeks before contacting my uBPD exHU.  And when I did I found she was also in a bad relationship and just getting out of it.  

We began dating almost immediately and I recall it as the happiest time in my life. In truth, it probably wasn't.  I recall feeling very HIGH.  It was very druglike.  I thought everything in my life was great.  I had always felt a strong connection to this woman.  And now she and I were together.  In some ways (internally), I idealized her and my whole outlook of who she was became one great distortion (this is something I've discovered through therapy).  I was so attracted to her charms.  :)uring this time, I was completely idealized by her.  But unlike maybe a lot of BPD relationships, we had instant problems.  Literally from day one.  We never had a truly happy honeymoon phase.  Part of this may be that we already knew eachother very well.  She was no stranger to me. I didn't know what borderline was at the time, but I knew this girl had serious problems.  And I chose to overlook them in the name of *love* and probably lust also.  

She was the most jealous woman I ever knew.  And based on my opening post in this thread, it may suggest she had good reason, but she didn't. Until this stage in my life, I have never cheated on anyone, emotionally or otherwise. I am troubled that I am  doing this to someone who I care greatly for (my current gf).  

After about 9 months of a rollercoaster ride with my uBPD ex I got genital warts which I learned she gave to me after a night with a guy who she slept with during one of fights where we had broken up for like 3 days. It was a terrible experience, made worse when she decided to leave me a month later for good for the guy who gave her the STD.  I remember begging her to stay.  I am so ashamed. I am ashamed that even to this day I have been able to overlook much of what she did and just cast it aside.

For the entire length of my relationship with her and even some months before, I have been in therapy.  It was helpful to have this as I didn't walk completely blind through the many changes that took place in my life during the past two years (many of which were not relaitonship-oriented).

Following the breakup of my relationship with my uBPD ex, I was going to the doctor every week to have new warts removed.  And I believed that if I couldn't get this under control, I may never be with anyone again.  I worked real hard on myself.  I was alone. I changed my diet.  I changed my outlook.  I got into a really healthy headspace.  I was in complete No Contact with my ex.  There were moments where I thought of her, but a lot of those thoughts were anger.  Sometimes lust.  But I don't recall missing her on an emotional level at this time.  She had become a demon in my eyes.  And I fell into a period of shame any time she consumed my sexual fantasy.  I worked hard to get past that and for a time I did get past it.

I met my current girlfriend at my job.  She started working there about 4 months after my uBPD ex and I split.  About 2 months into her working there we realized we had a lot in common and were attracted to eachother.  I knew inside, I had this baggage of genital warts that I would have to expose to her if we were to have a trusting relationship.  It troubled me greatly.  On our second date I sat her down and explained that my previous gf had given it to me and that it will likely go away in time.  She was very understanding and it only made our bond stronger. Strangely about 2 weeks later, was my last bout with warts and I haven't had them active since.  

About a month later my grandmother passed away and my present gf was so wonderful to me.  We were very very close.  I was very loving toward her too.  And I felt at the time, that while I occassionally had thoughts of my uBPD ex, that I was very aware that my current gf was a much warmer person and much more honest.  In March my job announced that the location was moving in July.  It would have turned an hour commute each way into almost two hours.  We decided that to keep our jobs we would move in together.  We were in love (I thought we were) and we had been together about 6 months when we decided to move in together.  Things were good at first, but I quickly became disenchanted with the situation.  

I didn't truly like my job and now I lived far away from all my family and friends and from the city I love (NYC).  The job felt somehow more permanent.  I didn't want to do this as a career.  But the money is very good and the job is easy for me.  I am musician and have dreamt of doing that for my whole life. It felt like living out there with no one but her and a job, that my dream was ending for good. It was also the first time I had lived with a gf.  And getting used to that was tough for me.  Needless to say, I had some regrets with regard to my decision.  And it impacted how I felt about her and the relationship.  Suddenly, what was an occassional fleeting thought about my uBPD ex became more prominent and emotionaly potent and constant.  I started to fantasize about her sexually again, I started to look at her facebook again.  I started to dream of being with her again... .and I mean dream (as in while I was sleeping).  And I became more and more disechanted with my current gf even though nothing had happened to really cause this event.  I imparted to my gf that I was unhappy, that I didn't feel like I  was on the path that I wanted to be on and I felt at times we had some communication issues and some sexual incompatibility issues.  It was heartbreaking for her and we worked through a lot of it.  And in some ways our relationship experienced some permanent damage as well as some permanent victories from disscussing things.   Despite my fixation with my uBPD which was growing every day, I was working real hard to improve my current relationship. I was doing more around the house.  I was being more loving.  I was hoping the thoughts of my ex were symptomatic of my disenchantment with my present life.  

[JohnThorn]

POST 2/2


In October, my obsession with my ex reach an addictive quality where I was privately falling apart.  I felt like I was living a lie, well because I was. And I didn't want to be at all.  I love my current gf. I love who she is.  I can't say that about my uBPD ex.  I just didn't want to be where I am in life.  While in a BPD relationship, theres not much you can do pertaining to life advancement and emotionally maturing.  You are so consumed by the drama of the BPD relationship (at least I was). And I always figured I wanted this back in my life to prevent me from taking on the elephant in the room... .my life and the my lost dreams.  I began to feel very suicidal. I hated lying to my gf.  I knew I could not tell her what was going on. I wasn't even sure what was real in my heart.  At the time, my feelings for my ex felt very real.  I eventually contacted my uBPD ex.  And was greeted with excitement and the type of dynamic which brings one back to when you were together.  For that moment, I felt completely consumed by the idea that I had to be with her again.  And as the conversation played out over the course of a few days, she went back and forth on what she wanted.  We met up on Halloween day (theres poetry somewhere in there).  And I sat with her in a diner in my old neighborhood and we talked about life and I told her how much I missed her.   She told me how she was seeing someone who reminded her of me and how it was weird to be sitting there with the real me.  But we were both aware of how much drama we bring to eachother's lives when we are even in eachother's lives for 10 minutes (ie during that week we had several arguments just like we did when we were together).  She told me she couldn't have that in her life and she didn't want to be with me. I think we both cried a bit.  And then I touched her leg and she initiated that she wanted to have sex.  Something I rejected.  

Going home that night to my gf, I had tremendous grief.  I wanted to break it all off with her. I felt I couldn't live with what I'd done. I was somewhat grateful to my uBPD ex for taking the perspective that we are toxic for eachother.  I contacted my uBPD ex the next day and asked her if she'd reconsider.  She said no.  I asked her to block me to help me move on.  She did.  But then 2 days later she started to message me again weird stuff about how she just made out with an old friend.  And how she wasn't ready to let me go. It was very strange and it didn't represent the logical and rational side of her I had seen just a few days prior.  We argued quickly and then she blocked me again.  Then she unblocked me etc... .she friended someone on facebook that did some damage to our relationship in the past, by spying on me for her.

That leads me to today.  My uBPD ex has been THE source of inspiration to my music for almost 10 years.  In fact when she's been entirely out of my life for a very long time, I find it difficult to write.  She knows this and I think that's the string which holds us together in some capacity.  I can see when she listens to my music on line.  I feel like knowing she'll listen drives me to create, to communicate with her.  I feel so far away from the life I dreamt for myself.  Somehow, I've convinced myself that our *bond* whatever it may be, keeps some small part of that dream alive.  I met her when I was 23 and she was 18.  We were kids.  I'll be 33 soon.  I don't want to let go.

[Kelli Cornett]

John, Read your post. Word for word. It's very interesting I see why you are in the arts.


Thanks for sharing that.

[Fr4nz]

Hey John, no doubt that BPD and HPD women represent the inspiration behind many songs (now it comes to my mind, for example, "Angie" by Rolling Stones or "Wasted Time" by The Eagles).

And I also relate to those feelings of longing towards my ex uBPD (+HPD traits)... .probably like yours, mine was so intelligent, creative, charismatic, funny and, in the end, a very good person... .what a waste of talent!

However, you have to realize that these people are really troubled, and you risk to waste the relationship you have with a very caring and stable woman for an unhealty and emotionally destroying relationship with an unstable woman (even after we consider all their extremely good qualities)... .choose carefully my friend, we only have one life and we have to make wise choices

Perhaps, one thing you have to learn is to "let them go"... .it is a very hard thing to do, but in the end it will give you much clarity about who you are, and it will represent a valuable tool in your life.

I really had a hard time to let my ex go, especially because I have my own BPD traits (even if I'm an equilibrate person, overall). Is it possible that you have BPD traits as well? Considering the way you write, IMHO you may have BPD traits, for sure you're not NPD (and if you have them, then you could have a covert-narcissistic component).

From this perspective, Conundrum's posts are really beautiful and compassionate, I suggest you to read them.

Moreover, the "let go" concept may be an inspiration for future songs

[JohnThorn]

Hey John, no doubt that BPD and HPD women represent the inspiration behind many songs (now it comes to my mind, for example, "Angie" by Rolling Stones or "Wasted Time" by The Eagles).

And I also relate to those feelings of longing towards my ex uBPD (+HPD traits)... .probably like yours, mine was so intelligent, creative, charismatic, funny and, in the end, a very good person... .what a waste of talent!

However, you have to realize that these people are really troubled, and you risk to waste the relationship you have with a very caring and stable woman for an unhealty and emotionally destroying relationship with an unstable woman (even after we consider all their extremely good qualities)... .choose carefully my friend, we only have one life and we have to make wise choices

Perhaps, one thing you have to learn is to "let them go"... .it is a very hard thing to do, but in the end it will give you much clarity about who you are, and it will represent a valuable tool in your life.

I really had a hard time to let my ex go, especially because I have my own BPD traits (even if I'm an equilibrate person, overall). Is it possible that you have BPD traits as well? Considering the way you write, IMHO you may have BPD traits, for sure you're not NPD (and if you have them, then you could have a covert-narcissistic component).

From this perspective, Conundrum's posts are really beautiful and compassionate, I suggest you to read them.

Moreover, the "let go" concept may be an inspiration for future songs

I'm curious, how does my writing style infer to you that I may have BPD (or BPD traits)?  Not offended, just curious.

I have long thought that I had BPD and I've argued with two therapists over the fact that they would not agree with me. Both therapists have basically said the same thing which is that I have a very addictive personality, which when comprised with OCD (which I also have) becomes a very distorted and emotional world that's easily triggered.

They said, where I don't have BPD is:

1) I have a self identity and I don't take on the interests of my partners (unless I want to)

2) I don't exhibit excessive rage even when I'm angry

3) I never split the partner black. I am very forgiving and I never hate them (and sometimes I wish I did hate them)

4) I have a lot of empathy for people and animals and I am usually the go-to friend for any of my friends when they're really amidst a crisis.  This part of my personality has been really screwed up lately due to what's going on and I see a lot of my friendships waining.

5) I don't have a fear of abandonment and I have a very secure and loving relationship with both my parents.

Where I do have elements of BPD is:

1) I can be very in my own head and see the worst in everything even if its mostly (or all) in my head

2) I crave tumultuous drama in relationships even though when its happening I literally can't take it

3) I put a great deal of the value of myself in my relationship and how my partner is valued by others. I am very ashamed of this

4) I have a tendency to act out in self harm when I'm very upset in the form of overspending.