stuck in a "what-if" today

[cloudten]

So, I feel stuck in a "what-if" today.

What if I could have been more validating with my BPDx?  I realize now that being the daughter of a narc mom, I am really really horrible about validating and empathy. it's not that I don't feel empathy... .I feel it PLENTY... .but I am not always good at expressing it verbally (or physically sometimes). In fact, I am really terrible at expressing ANYTHING verbally. It is part of me that I have always felt very weak with- verbal communication.

My mistakes in the relationship are weighing on me heavily today. I miss him... .a lot. I know I shouldn't, but I just do. I can practically hear my T yelling at me now "Why would you miss that A$$ hole?"  I don't know... .I just do. He was my best friend... .who hurt me. I just miss him.

I just took that schema thing- it confirms a lot for me. Vulnerable child, compliant surrenderer, demanding parent.  That's all correct. I know it all comes from my childhood... and my narc mom.

In some ways I feel so overwhelmed too. I can't concentrate to save my soul at work today.

I know I'll never be anything with my BPDx again... .but today I just find that I really don't want to detach. I just don't want to. I loved him. I miss him and I don't want to move on. I know this means there is something wrong with me... .but its just where I am at today.

I don't think it's because I don't want to be a failure. I have failed before... .heck I'm divorced... .I have failed a lot. I can't even say it's because I don't want to be alone. I am alone... .I am actually pretty happy being alone. I really think its just that I really loved him. I just SO wish things had been different.

Add the pressure- today my D6, bless her little sweet heart, told me she wants me to keep looking for a boyfriend, get married, and have more children so she can have a brother or sister. If only it were that easy... .like adopting the right cat. At times I think I could be ready to move on... .although I feel like I don't even know the first way to start doing that. But then there are days like today where I feel like being stubborn and just saying "i don't want to let go! I don't want to detach! I don't want to move on! I wanted him!"

[Mutt]

I don't think it's because I don't want to be a failure. I have failed before... .heck I'm divorced... .I have failed a lot. I can't even say it's because I don't want to be alone. I am alone... .I am actually pretty happy being alone. I really think its just that I really loved him. I just SO wish things had been different.

Fail often. I think that big successes in life are achieved by failing often before we get things right.

I can also understand feeling stuck in our healing. Do you think that you had thoughts about being alone and not meeting someone else before your daughter mentioned that she wants you to get married again? Do you fear that you're not going to meet someone else?

[Lotus1976]

I am so sorry. I know it hurts and is a great loss. Perhaps it would help to make a list of all the reasons you broke up. You don't deserve to be mistreated. Dig deep. You can do this. So can I. I have no choice but to leave now - he physically hurt me. I would've never imagined such a thing. The bruises make it hard to make excuses or feel bad for not validating him enough. Don't blame yourself and get stuck in the " why". This is just another event in the timeline of your life and you will heal. I know it. You sound strong.

G

[cloudten]

Fail often. I think that big successes in life are achieved by failing often before we get things right.

I can also understand feeling stuck in our healing. Do you think that you had thoughts about being alone and not meeting someone else before your daughter mentioned that she wants you to get married again? Do you fear that you're not going to meet someone else?

Oh yes, I think about it all the time. Part of me wonders if she sees that I am ready to move on... .but it's more likely her own desires to have a family with a mom & dad together with a sibling (she's an only child). I have been battling with the feelings of dating again.  Part of me has a strong pull to get back in the saddle and at least trying to get out there and date. Part of me wants nothing to do with anyone ever again. And the other part just wants to be with BPDx- which is why I wonder if I had just listened more, if I had held his hand more... .what if. All of these things I am learning about validation and empathy that I am applying diligently to my relationship with my daughter... .what if I had applied it to my BPDx. Thinking outloud- it would have been exhausting I think... .but would it have made a difference? I will never know.

I do not fear that I will never meet anyone else. I meet people all the time. Not to sound cocky, but I turn down dates from real life people regularly. I know that all I have to do is say yes instead of no... .and I'll be dating again. I suppose I do fear that I will never meet the "right one"- just a bit.

I know it all stems from my deep loneliness. I know another person can't fix my inner loneliness.

Lotus- true and thank you---- I have physical scars that all I need do is look at. I don't need to make a list- its all there in my head. It's just messed up that I still miss him. I think the end was such a shock to me... .a true and utter shock... .that I am just still in the "in love phase".  12 hours before he tried to kill me, we went to breakfast, he gave me jewelry, we danced in our hotel room... .I feel robbed of the good stuff. There's moments like this one I am in, where I still don't know What the heck happened? Why did he lose his mind? I am 9 weeks NC. The complete and total mystery of what happened is as fresh as if it was yesterday.

I worry, sometimes, that I will be out there... .5, 10, 15 years down the road. Remarried to someone wonderful... .and BPDx will somehow enter my life- by chance or intentionally... .and I will go back to him... .like that... .without a second thought. I can see myself doing that. I pride myself in deep self-control in all areas of my life. Highly ethical and moral. Alas, He is my one kryptonite... .my one drug... my one weakness.

Thanks... .I am trying to be strong. People my whole life have told me I am strong... .but I am just not strong when it comes to this one particular person.

[enlighten me]

I have gone through the what ifs stage. When I have this I remind myself that even Ghandi would have had enough of her behaviour and would have lost it at some point. Im no Ghandi so the chances of it working out where slim to non.

[Mutt]

Fail often. I think that big successes in life are achieved by failing often before we get things right.

I can also understand feeling stuck in our healing. Do you think that you had thoughts about being alone and not meeting someone else before your daughter mentioned that she wants you to get married again? Do you fear that you're not going to meet someone else?

Oh yes, I think about it all the time. Part of me wonders if she sees that I am ready to move on... .but it's more likely her own desires to have a family with a mom & dad together with a sibling (she's an only child). I have been battling with the feelings of dating again.  Part of me has a strong pull to get back in the saddle and at least trying to get out there and date. Part of me wants nothing to do with anyone ever again. And the other part just wants to be with BPDx- which is why I wonder if I had just listened more, if I had held his hand more... .what if. All of these things I am learning about validation and empathy that I am applying diligently to my relationship with my daughter... .what if I had applied it to my BPDx. Thinking outloud- it would have been exhausting I think... .but would it have made a difference? I will never know.

I do not fear that I will never meet anyone else. I meet people all the time. Not to sound cocky, but I turn down dates from real life people regularly. I know that all I have to do is say yes instead of no... .and I'll be dating again. I suppose I do fear that I will never meet the "right one"- just a bit.

cloudten,

I have felt similar feelings about validation. I didn't know what validation was and empathy was in marriage because of my family and how I grew up. It's not my fault that my family didn't know better at the time. I think that what the relationship thought me is how huge validation is with my kids and future relationships and how empathy is important with all relationships. I validate my ex wife after the dissolution of our marriage but she has a lot of dysfunctional behaviors that she has to want to get help for and I can't help her with that.

I think that self validation is also important and it's not something that she can do. I can also empathize with you when you say that you don't want anything to do with anyone again. I can tell you that not all people will treat you the same way that your ex partner did when you trust the right people that respect your boundaries, thoughts and your opinions. It sounds like you want to date but that you're not ready to date yet.

[cloudten]

Mutt,

I agree completely that this relationship has really taught me about validation and empathy- something that was virtually non-existent in my FOO. I was never allowed to be anything but positive and happy... .it was all rainbows and sunshine. squeeky clean.

Are you able to share a little bit about how you have practiced better validation and empathy with your children considering you didn't have it much in your FOO?

[Mutt]

Mutt,

I agree completely that this relationship has really taught me about validation and empathy- something that was virtually non-existent in my FOO. I was never allowed to be anything but positive and happy... .it was all rainbows and sunshine. squeeky clean.

Are you able to share a little bit about how you have practiced better validation and empathy with your children considering you didn't have it much in your FOO?

Absolutely. As a kid it was frowned upon to share thoughts and feelings because my father would become upset and angry although he projected his feelings of guilt and shame on me.

I'll give you an example where I use empathy, validation and I teach boundaries because I want to give my kids something that I didn't get when I was a kid so that they have healthier relationships and they avoid some of the pitfalls that dad went through.

I pick up my kids after work at after school care. I'll use my D9 for this example. Sometimes she's in a happy mood ( especially when she has art class for extra curriculum ) excited or sometimes she's feeling down. I ask her how her day went and she'll tell me about art, activities, interactions with teachers, kids etc... .If she's down I can tell that she probably had a long day at school and had a stressful day and she will tell me about something that happened between her and a child at school at recess or in class.

She may say that a child was not playing very nice during recess and called her a name like smarty pants and it upset her. She is intelligent, I will say " I can see how frustrating that would feel D9" and I'll walk her through it in a way that she will understand for her age. It may be that the other child is jealous because she picks things up quickly and it makes them feel insecure and when people feel jealous they will make fun of other kids so that it makes them feel better. I tell her that a boundary on her could be to tell the child something like "I'm not going to play with you when you're like that" and simply walk away and play with another friend or if the child is really out of bounds to tell the teacher.

When I started applying validation with my kids, it took time and practice and honestly I still practice how I validate but I notice that the kids are happier, they trust dad because I respect their perspective and let them tell me their experience their way, I don't tell them that they are viewing something wrong, I validate them. They will tell me how they feel ":)ad, I feel frustrated" and I find that it's easier for me because they will approach me and tell me what's going on with them. It's not always the case but they will approach me and share with me because they know dad listens.

[cloudten]

Mutt,

That is really fantastic! I am assuming that their mother is a pwBPD... .so the validation they receive from you is rarely available on the mother's end.

I think it is really great that they know you listen to them, offering freely how they feel now. Sometimes I feel like a detective trying to pry it out of D6. I want my daughter to feel like she can come to me with anything. I don't want her to be scared of me like I was of my own mother. I don't want her to feel like she can't share her feelings. I don't want her to have to fake it like I did. (and still do when I am around my mom)

[Mutt]

Mutt,

That is really fantastic! I am assuming that their mother is a pwBPD... .so the validation they receive from you is rarely available on the mother's end.

I think it is really great that they know you listen to them, offering freely how they feel now. Sometimes I feel like a detective trying to pry it out of D6. I want my daughter to feel like she can come to me with anything. I don't want her to be scared of me like I was of my own mother. I don't want her to feel like she can't share her feelings. I don't want her to have to fake it like I did. (and still do when I am around my mom)

cloudten,

I think you’ve got it now 

[steve195915]

So, I feel stuck in a "what-if" today.

What if I could have been more validating with my BPDx?  I realize now that being the daughter of a narc mom, I am really really horrible about validating and empathy. it's not that I don't feel empathy... .I feel it PLENTY... .but I am not always good at expressing it verbally (or physically sometimes). In fact, I am really terrible at expressing ANYTHING verbally. It is part of me that I have always felt very weak with- verbal communication.

My mistakes in the relationship are weighing on me heavily today. I miss him... .a lot. I know I shouldn't, but I just do. I can practically hear my T yelling at me now "Why would you miss that A$$ hole?"  I don't know... .I just do. He was my best friend... .who hurt me. I just miss him.

I just took that schema thing- it confirms a lot for me. Vulnerable child, compliant surrenderer, demanding parent.  That's all correct. I know it all comes from my childhood... and my narc mom.

In some ways I feel so overwhelmed too. I can't concentrate to save my soul at work today.

I know I'll never be anything with my BPDx again... .but today I just find that I really don't want to detach. I just don't want to. I loved him. I miss him and I don't want to move on. I know this means there is something wrong with me... .but its just where I am at today.

I don't think it's because I don't want to be a failure. I have failed before... .heck I'm divorced... .I have failed a lot. I can't even say it's because I don't want to be alone. I am alone... .I am actually pretty happy being alone. I really think its just that I really loved him. I just SO wish things had been different.

Add the pressure- today my D6, bless her little sweet heart, told me she wants me to keep looking for a boyfriend, get married, and have more children so she can have a brother or sister. If only it were that easy... .like adopting the right cat. At times I think I could be ready to move on... .although I feel like I don't even know the first way to start doing that. But then there are days like today where I feel like being stubborn and just saying "i don't want to let go! I don't want to detach! I don't want to move on! I wanted him!"

During the previous breakup with my BPDex, I also had the same feelings about my mistakes in the relationship, especially my lack of validation, and empathy and taking things she said too personally.  So I promised myself I will try my hardest, to become best at using validation and empathy, I would not take things personally and respond by making things worse.  So we got back together.  And I was so proud of myself, I was able to diffuse situations from getting worse, arguing was at a minimum, even when it seemed like she was prompting me into a fight I was always able to diffuse the situation.  Sure I was still subjected to verbal abuse, but I would not take that to heart and didn't respond at all or in any way to make things worse, writing it off as her mental illness.  If I didn't respond to the attacks, it would end there with no escalation. A few minutes later all was well.  Things were going very well, we went on a trip and had the most awesome time ever.  Sure there were those comments, accusations, and abuse but I pushed them aside and nothing ever escalated.  The evening back an hour after I dropped her off, she texts me how amazing I am, how she loves me, how she will always be there for me.  A few days later I receive a text, "I'm done with the relationship, thanks, goodbye".  There was no explanation, no reason, no previous arguments, nothing. 

So stop wondering what if.  If you were the most validating person, that were an expert at empathy and communication techniques, it makes no difference.  Sure you could have reduced the blow-ups but the end result would be the same.  BPD is an incurable mental illness.  Lies, cheating, verbal or physical  abuse, emotional abuse, intense anger, are just some of the traits of the illness. 

So happy detaching!

[thisworld]

Hey Cloudten ,

Please, please, please stop worrying that just because you were raised by a narcissistic mother you lack certain things that other people have. Do not think for a second that other individuals are more capable than you in relationships. That is false. That is still an illusion, a leftover from our FOOs. "If I was a bit more X, then this would be fine" is the very thought pattern installed in us by that FOO. People come from all sorts of families that equip them with some strengths and some shortcomings. Maybe your family also gave you something that other people do not have. My training with my volatile, tantrum-addict mother has given me great control during my ex's rages and parasuicide attempts and I was able to deal with them competently. I'm sure you have some skills that you don't perhaps realize - for one thing, I bet your whole presence throughout your relationship was one big validation.

I think I understand your sensitivity about validation. I turned into an angry child somewhere in my teens and this carried on till my mid-twenties - this anger emerged only with my mother. Then trying to find answers to my questions about myself, I came across this concept validation and the first time I read about it something broke in me and I cried  for hours. Validation was everything I did not get throughout my childhood. Lack of validation had hurt me so much that I decided to do everything in my power not to cause the same pain to other people. And I think it was a good decision. And I think my narcissistic mother taught me a lot about how not to treat people, and I owe a great part of my good traits to that. Through luck, fortune whatever, I did not become someone like her, and once that was that, hey, I realized I'm a very sensitive and thoughtful person already:) I also learned that trying to be perfect in everything and beating up myself for it is a form of inverted narcissism, too - like, as if I could be perfect if I tried hard enough, I cannot. So, I decided to stop that tendency, too. That's also an FOO issue.

Until some time ago, I found myself kind of "stiff", English is not my mother language and I don't know how to explain it. But I felt like I couldn't use my body as fluidly as other people, that I couldn't verbally validate people as naturally as other people etc etc. I thought I was timid. These were probably true to a degree. But then one day an old lady told me that I was this cute and warm person whose entire presence was this big validation to a person already. Then I noticed that I was timid as a defense perhaps, but once people get through that I'm so goofy:))

My passive-agressive ex-husband knew my sensitivity about validation and constantly told me that I never validated him. Trying to please him, I became such a validation bomb that it started disturbing my friends:))

I actually think both my mother and my ex-husband were unfair people. I have been with confident men who weren't disturbed by my lack of verbal validation at all. They were able to see who I am through my actions. If they needed something from me, they managed to ask for it without making me feel defective in some way. I think this is what everyone needs in their lives.

In my relationship with the BPD, I gave validation in every possible way. He was a bottomless well and after a while it didn't help and maybe, he even lost his respect for me because deep down he didn't like himself. I kept validating something that he didn't like - his self. Unconsciously, maybe he thought I was someone weak for liking him and validating him. The problem with BPD is that it can be triggered either, way. This is not related with something you did or didn't. Because they associate love with anguish, they seek that as much as they seek validation. Damned if you, damned if you don't. My partner couldn't detach from ex relationships that invalidated him in so many ways. BPD is not simply a self-confidence issue where once you give some validation, the person appreciates it and the problem is solved. Unfortunately, it is much more than that.

Sending you lots of love and a big hug,