180 days NC - hardest part is accepting you will never hear from them again.

[hopealways]

Today marks 180 days of NC with my BPDx of 3.5 years.  She discarded me via text, never even said goodbye, just "I'm sorry".  She always came back during her 20+ other discards within 1-3 months. I know I expected her to come back this time around as well but she has not. This has made these past 6 months very difficult: not knowing, and consequently not really being in control.

I realize I was addicted to her and the highs I had while in her presence.  I think accepting I will never see her again means also accepting I will never reach that state of euphoria again and this is what keeps me sad.

How can someone be the center of your universe, your everything, and then the next day you are forced to unlove them, to never speak with them again.

It is just so difficult, but such is life.

Sometimes I feel the only way the pain will go away is if she came back and I know I want her to come back but I have remained strong and committed to NC, improving myself and moving forward. Thanks for listening, hang in there.

[Anez]

Sorry to hear what you went through, Hope. You're last 180 must have been really, really hard. Pat yourself on the back for all that you've done during that time. It shows a lot of strength.

Keep pushing forward. it's inspiring to the rest of us here.

[Itstopsnow]

I feel all your pain. Although I was with mine 18 months. We had a whirlwind of a relationship . But I guess what I'm realizing as close as we were to them, they weren't experiencing that same closeness as they pretended to be. I mean sure I think when they were with us it was real to them in that moment. But they lack object constancy and can compartmentalize us. They develop their other relationships whether it's an emotional affair or physical or both just so they aren't as invested in us . It's done to protect themselves from abandonment and engulfment. It is a sick illness. It's so selfish . Everything they fear the most the flip and do to us. Life seems so unfair sometimes. All we did was love them . I think when we do move on and find a healthy person there will be a possibility to find a better mature and giving love! I definitely don't think my ex was a great boyfriend . I know there are better people in the world that would never do this. We just have to let go and be open to it. Easier said than done. I still miss my ex after the hell he put me through. Again seems so unfair but like you said that is life. We learn to toughen up I guess. But someone please tell my heart how to do that!

[Squander]

I agree about the object constancy thing, but I also believe most of them will reconnect at some point.  Not because they care for you or want you back (though they might tell you both of these things), but because they need the attention.  Maybe they are between relationships or their current relationship sucks.  Maybe they are fighting with their boyfriend. This is never about you.  They will tell you things they think you want to hear just to watch you make a fool of yourself.  Once they think they have you, and you have humiliated yourself enough, they will move on because there is nothing left to "take" from you.  The chase is over, and it is always about the chase.

If she does contact you, try to really understand why.  Look past the stuff she knows you want to hear and you should get a pretty clear picture of why she contacted you.  You will want to believe the bs though, trust me.

[Itstopsnow]

Also to add to that... .If and when they come back it is sometimes also do to who they were when they were with you! Since they lack a true sense of self. They either mirror or camouflage themselves with your traits. If you were with her for a significant amount of time, your traits became hers. So they miss that part of themselves that they were when they were with you. It's never about us! It's always about them and their needs. And we shouldn't take it personally because that part of their emotional growth hasn't evolved past that of a small child. It's hard not to take it personally when we truly loved them. Their love is infantile and mostly self seeking. They may miss us from time to time but it's more about their pain and their loss . Not actually us

[blackbirdsong]

Also to add to that... .If and when they come back it is sometimes also do to who they were when they were with you! Since they lack a true sense of self. They either mirror or camouflage themselves with your traits. If you were with her for a significant amount of time, your traits became hers. So they miss that part of themselves that they were when they were with you. It's never about us! It's always about them and their needs. And we shouldn't take it personally because that part of their emotional growth hasn't evolved past that of a small child. It's hard not to take it personally when we truly loved them. Their love is infantile and mostly self seeking. They may miss us from time to time but it's more about their pain and their loss . Not actually us

Isn't that the case with us also?

We don't like them, we like our image from idealization phase so we crave for more... .

[Itstopsnow]

I don't think so blackbirdson. It is nothing like us. Sure we all loved the idealizing phase when they wanted our time and affection. But most would of been happy to mellow out in a normal relationship. Their "other self" is full of anger, rage, selfishness, childness. I don't think their is a person on this earth that would want that or to have to deal with that on a regular basis. They sold us a false bill of goods. They only have what it takes to start out a relationship. They don't have what it takes to sustain and nourish it

[blackbirdsong]

I don't think so blackbirdson. It is nothing like us. Sure we all loved the idealizing phase when they wanted our time and affection. But most would of been happy to mellow out in a normal relationship. Their "other self" is full of anger, rage, selfishness, childness. I don't think their is a person on this earth that would want that or to have to deal with that on a regular basis. They sold us a false bill of goods. They only have what it takes to start out a relationship. They don't have what it takes to sustain and nourish it

I see your point, really do. That was my opinion at the beginning.

But now, I think this is just one perspective. After the relationship with BPD partner ends, especially if they left us, we have narcissistic wound, and now I am pretty sure that most of the people whose stories I read every day have this.

We feel cheated, we say that they showed their true face only after.

But guess what, they didn't hide BPD from beginning, the red flags were there from beginning. There were red flags that someone else ignored and walked away, didn't even start relationship with BPD.

We have our own emotional issues that connected us with BPD, I am pretty sure in this pre-condition... .Really, I am - after all introspective work and also by reading many stories here.  I am not saying that emotionally stable person cannot enter a relationship with BPD, but they won't connect in a way we did.

Don't think of BPD persons like bad persons who manipulated you, by wearing a mask on purpose. It won't help you, won't help your healing.

You said:

I don't think their is a person on this earth that would want that or to have to deal with that on a regular basis. They sold us a false bill of goods.

In the same way, there is no person on this earth who wants to have BPD.

It takes two to tango... .Accept your part of responsibility for entering the relationship, do your inner work, find out what attracted you to the BPD person and too extreme idealization phase, to the "wounded girl" that you wanted to save and give everything, even yourself - completely.  

[Anez]

They only have what it takes to start out a relationship. They don't have what it takes to sustain and nourish it

Man that is so true.

[burritoman]

They only have what it takes to start out a relationship. They don't have what it takes to sustain and nourish it

Man that is so true.

This is true, but I also believe that some (not all) do genuinely feel remorseful or sorry for the way they treated us. They project their own shame and guilt onto us, but that doesn't mean they didn't actually love us. Their love was amplified, as was their hatred. Some BPD are much much much more selfish and needy, but for others their love was genuine. There were triggers of abandonment or crisis and they left. This is where the "balloon theory" comes in. I feel that them coming back for us to fulfill supply is a much more narcissistic trait that BPD. If they leave on strange terms and come back, it could be out of love and comfort. In the end who knows?

[hopealways]

QUOTE FROM BLACKBIRDSONG:

"It takes two to tango... .Accept your part of responsibility for entering the relationship do your inner work, find out what attracted you to the BPD person and too extreme idealization phase, to the "wounded girl" that you wanted to save and give everything, even yourself - completely."

Sorry blackbirdsong I have to disagree with this. BPD individuals are predators. Saying it takes 2 to tango with a BPD is like saying it was the tourist's fault for being eaten by a shark, and to take responsibility for being eaten by that shark.  The non did nothing but caretake the BPD and show kindness only to be treated with complete inhumanity.  It was the humanity inside the non that put up with so much because our compassion (which they lack) thought that we could make them better. The BPD's seduction capabilities are way stronger than the radar of any non so we fell into it like quicksand.  Let's not put any blame or responsibility on us and focus on getting better instead.

[blackbirdsong]

QUOTE FROM BLACKBIRDSONG:

"It takes two to tango... .Accept your part of responsibility for entering the relationship do your inner work, find out what attracted you to the BPD person and too extreme idealization phase, to the "wounded girl" that you wanted to save and give everything, even yourself - completely."

Sorry blackbirdsong I have to disagree with this. BPD individuals are predators. Saying it takes 2 to tango with a BPD is like saying it was the tourist's fault for being eaten by a shark, and to take responsibility for being eaten by that shark.  The non did nothing but caretake the BPD and show kindness only to be treated with complete inhumanity.  It was the humanity inside the non that put up with so much because our compassion (which they lack) thought that we could make them better. The BPD's seduction capabilities are way stronger than the radar of any non so we fell into it like quicksand.  Let's not put any blame or responsibility on us and focus on getting better instead.

You have misquoted me... .I didn't say we should put blame on us.

I just said that we also played an unhealthy role. Nothing to blame, it was also part of our personality.

Your words:

The non did nothing but caretake the BPD

This is unhealthy for relationship. In healthy relationship we shouldn't be caretakers. But the fact is that we liked this role, it filled our ego, we liked to be needed, not to be loved.

because our compassion (which they lack) thought that we could make them better.



Sorry, but this is also unhealthy. Your role is not to fix/change/improve your partner in a relationship. You need to live side by side with him and accept him/she. If you don't like your partner, you have other choices, but you shouldn't change him/she. Only that person can make a change.

I don't see my exGF as a shark, nor I think that her seduction capabilities are 'inhuman' - actually, I am 'fresh' non-BPD, I bropke up with her 2 months ago. But I am working on myself, started therapy and that helped me to understand what unhealthy behaviors did I nurture in this relationship.

[Newton]

Suggesting 'they' are a shark... .and we are an unwitting fish (meal)... .is a logical fallacy. This position promotes a victim mentality... .

We are/were both complex individuals... .no doubt they are predatory by nature (nuture)... .if we weren't clued up to their 'sharkiness' (new word  )... .and red flags... .thats about us... .

I've watched videos of clued up dolphins putting a shark in it's place 

[hopealways]

Suggesting 'they' are a shark... .and we are an unwitting fish (meal)... .is a logical fallacy. This position promotes a victim mentality... .

We are/were both complex individuals... .no doubt they are predatory by nature (nuture)... .if we weren't clued up to their 'sharkiness' (new word  )... .and red flags... .thats about us... .

I've watched videos of clued up dolphins putting a shark in it's place  

Of course we were victimized, and we were victims of their emotional disorder.  This is factual.  Whether it "promotes" a victim mentality is a whole other debate. In fact it is precisely the type of thing Borderlines tell the non: "Stop playing the victim." Do we tell victims of crime to "stop playing the victim" or "you have such a victim mentality"? NO! Emotional abuse should be treated no differently than physical abuse.  Yes we were victims and were victimized.

There is nothing wrong with stating what it was, that they were the predators and we were the victims. Again, blaming the non for not seeing red flags is absolutely wrong.  Their predatory nature presumes that their prey is ignorant of their behavior.  Now we know and have insight but I disagree that the non bears responsibility in any of this when the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

[blackbirdsong]

Suggesting 'they' are a shark... .and we are an unwitting fish (meal)... .is a logical fallacy. This position promotes a victim mentality... .

We are/were both complex individuals... .no doubt they are predatory by nature (nuture)... .if we weren't clued up to their 'sharkiness' (new word  )... .and red flags... .thats about us... .

I've watched videos of clued up dolphins putting a shark in it's place  

Of course we were victimized, and we were victims of their emotional disorder.  This is factual.  Whether it "promotes" a victim mentality is a whole other debate. In fact it is precisely the type of thing Borderlines tell the non: "Stop playing the victim." But there is nothing wrong with stating what it was, that they were the predators and we were the victims. Again, blaming the non for not seeing red flags is absolutely wrong.  Their predatory nature presumes that their prey is ignorant of their behavior.  Now we know and have insight but I disagree that the non bears responsibility in any of this when the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

Ok, you have your own opinion. And I respect that, I disagree - but I respect it.

We are here to discuss our opinions on these boards and to try understand what brought us here.

But just one more thing. You are describing BPD as psychopaths (using official definition and behavior). Ask any psychologist, and they will confirm you that they are not psychopaths. It is not that they didn't show a potential for their later behavior early on. It is just that we (because of our emotional issues/lack of boundaries/codependency/_insert something else_, ... .) didn't recognize this.

And it is not something you should blame yourself... .Would you blame yourself if you have a broken leg and because of that you cannot run? No, you just need to heal that leg, and you will be able to run.  

[Newton]

BPD acting out/in is an attempt to supress inner dysregulation, nons were doing the same... .satisfaction of need through another... .they didn't choose this and until treatment intervenes (if ever) they will repeat as necessary.

We have ability to choose to recognise them for what they are and to decide to get the hell out of their way... .if we didn't have that knowledge before... .we experienced and survived... .then that is a gift.

Blame for our lack of knowledge surely lies with those who were responsible for teaching us how to recognise danger... .and not those who want to harm us.

[hopealways]

Suggesting 'they' are a shark... .and we are an unwitting fish (meal)... .is a logical fallacy. This position promotes a victim mentality... .

We are/were both complex individuals... .no doubt they are predatory by nature (nuture)... .if we weren't clued up to their 'sharkiness' (new word  )... .and red flags... .thats about us... .

I've watched videos of clued up dolphins putting a shark in it's place  

Of course we were victimized, and we were victims of their emotional disorder.  This is factual.  Whether it "promotes" a victim mentality is a whole other debate. In fact it is precisely the type of thing Borderlines tell the non: "Stop playing the victim." But there is nothing wrong with stating what it was, that they were the predators and we were the victims. Again, blaming the non for not seeing red flags is absolutely wrong.  Their predatory nature presumes that their prey is ignorant of their behavior.  Now we know and have insight but I disagree that the non bears responsibility in any of this when the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

Ok, you have your own opinion. And I respect that, I disagree - but I respect it.

We are here to discuss our opinions on these boards and to try understand what brought us here.

But just one more thing. You are describing BPD as psychopaths (using official definition and behavior). Ask any psychologist, and they will confirm you that they are not psychopaths. It is not that they didn't show a potential for their later behavior early on. It is just that we (because of our emotional issues/lack of boundaries/codependency/_insert something else_, ... .) didn't recognize this.

And it is not something you should blame yourself... .Would you blame yourself if you have a broken leg and because of that you cannot run? No, you just need to heal that leg, and you will be able to run.  

I have stated the BPD's behavior is pathological, not psychopathic. 

[once removed]

the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

to say this is to completely misunderstand BPD psychopathology. BPD is a disorder marked by impulsivity, and low emotional regularity.

same with describing them as predators. it simply doesnt fit. it may be how you see it. it may be your experience. its not characteristic of borderline personality disorder. personally, if my ex was a predator, and/or cunning master manipulator, she was really, really bad at it.

if you feel your relationship was predator vs prey, then not only can i understand why youd feel victimized, but itd be pretty tough to recover from. the truth is that if your partner is someone with borderline personality disorder, they wanted it to work, desperately, perhaps more than you did. i get the feeling of feeling like ones relationship was an illusion, that nothing was real; not so. it simply wasnt sustainable. that is the nature of the disorder. you were there. it happened. loving words, hopes and dreams were shared. not as part of a con game. better, clinical, factual understanding of BPD leads to a better, more balanced understanding of how your relationship transpired, and better ability to heal.

back to your original post: one thing someone pointed out to me at the time, when i was struggling with the finality, or whether there was such a thing, was that i did have control, i did have power, frankly, i could contact her any time i wanted to. i resolved not to, but hell, i could right now if i wanted to. so can you. its a choice not dependent on what she does or doesnt do. i found that made me feel a lot less hopeless, more empowered.

[hopealways]

the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

to say this is to completely misunderstand BPD psychopathology. BPD is a disorder marked by impulsivity, and low emotional regularity.

same with describing them as predators. it simply doesnt fit. it may be how you see it. it may be your experience. its not characteristic of borderline personality disorder. personally, if my ex was a predator, and/or cunning master manipulator, she was really, really bad at it.

if you feel your relationship was predator vs prey, then not only can i understand why youd feel victimized, but itd be pretty tough to recover from. the truth is that if your partner is someone with borderline personality disorder, they wanted it to work, desperately, perhaps more than you did. i get the feeling of feeling like ones relationship was an illusion, that nothing was real; not so. it simply wasnt sustainable. that is the nature of the disorder. you were there. it happened. loving words, hopes and dreams were shared. not as part of a con game. better, clinical, factual understanding of BPD leads to a better, more balanced understanding of how your relationship transpired, and better ability to heal.

back to your original post: one thing someone pointed out to me at the time, when i was struggling with the finality, or whether there was such a thing, was that i did have control, i did have power, frankly, i could contact her any time i wanted to. i resolved not to, but hell, i could right now if i wanted to. so can you. its a choice not dependent on what she does or doesnt do. i found that made me feel a lot less hopeless, more empowered.

I have read the literature, extensively and studied BPD psychopathology. BPD is NOT "Marked" by impulsivity, impulsivity is merely 1 of 9 DSM criteria of the BPD only 5 of which need be present for a diagnosis.

I agree that many BPD are impulsive; however, impulsivity and calculating behavior are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the BPD often have comorbid traits of the NPD which include manipulative behavior which is always calculated.  Every person on this post has experienced twisted lies of the BPD. Lies by their nature are calculated, deceptive, and manipulative.  There are over 500,000 posts in this L3 forum, without even one happy ending of the BPD relationship working (even after therapy which the literature shows only at best minimizes the suicidal thoughts and certain acting-out behaviors)-to say that the BPD really wanted to make the relationship work begs the question of what our definition of "wanting" has become.

[Newton]

It's a subject that perhaps deserves another thread as it seems to come up so regularly when members struggle accepting culpability and their partners realistic levels of executive self control... .

Comorbidity definitely muddies the waters... .

The shark analogy is emotionally loaded... .and yet, imo pwBPD... .and 'nons' chose to select their mate based on a need to satisfy something missing inside... .

[once removed]

we really dont need to debate the small stuff, hopealways. it would be dehumanizing of me to say that a pwBPD is incapable of calculating or manipulating or lying; we all are. does that, a cunning predator or con artist make? it doesnt fit with borderline personality disorder. based on your words, it doesnt fit your experience.

There are over 500,000 posts in this L3 forum, without even one happy ending of the BPD relationship working

youre free to believe that, but its factually untrue and you have been given examples in the past.

at a certain point, this becomes misinformation as opposed to confusion.

[Itstopsnow]

I agree with you hope always! It's a spectrum disorder! My ex was a priest and he used his priesthood to come across trust worthy and honest. He would buy me religious articles and then cheat on me at the same time. Had a second girlfriend all summer and told me we fell apart this summer because I stopped trying. They know what they are doing. They are not powerless over their disorder. They live sneaky lives. And when your life is sneaky in nature you as a person become more and more deceptive. They enjoy the chase the endorphine high they get sneaky around. Yes, I agree their wiring is screwed up and they would do it to anyone. It's not personally about us. But you see it is. Because it happened to us. They know right from wrong. They could seek counsel or help. They choose not to. People say they don't think they are wrong. But on many levels that is just straight up BS! They have a huge sense of shame and feelings of being a bad person. That's Because they know what they are doing is gravely wrong! Double lives, lying, manipulative ways, raging. Etc . They are not MS patients and victim of their circumstance. They have choices . They can get really close to us and make us believe we are a team! And very much loved by them. But they can't share any of these fears or feelings they experience having BPD ? To me that is a choice and a secretive way to live that only builds up barriers to a lasting relationship . They come in the relationship knowing this! They hold all the cards and pretend to be on the same page as you when they can't even open the book! Maybe we are responsible for the part that once the devalue stage came why didn't we leave or set proper boundaries . I agree that is where I messed up. But I thought we had so many other things going for us and I was invested . It's hard to say what we should think about our part in this. Because our intentions were pure while theirs were calculated. They needed us and when they didn't they acted out. Able to do so because they weren't investing as we were or as they claimed they were. They had other supplies to keep them from fully investing. Just my opinion though

[hopealways]

I agree with you hope always! It's a spectrum disorder! My ex was a priest and he used his priesthood to come across trust worthy and honest. He would buy me religious articles and then cheat on me at the same time. Had a second girlfriend all summer and told me we fell apart this summer because I stopped trying. They know what they are doing. They are not powerless over their disorder. They live sneaky lives. And when your life is sneaky in nature you as a person become more and more deceptive. They enjoy the chase the endorphine high they get sneaky around. Yes, I agree their wiring is screwed up and they would do it to anyone. It's not personally about us. But you see it is. Because it happened to us. They know right from wrong. They could seek counsel or help. They choose not to. People say they don't think they are wrong. But on many levels that is just straight up BS! They have a huge sense of shame and feelings of being a bad person. That's Because they know what they are doing is gravely wrong! Double lives, lying, manipulative ways, raging. Etc . They are not MS patients and victim of their circumstance. They have choices . They can get really close to us and make us believe we are a team! And very much loved by them. But they can't share any of these fears or feelings they experience having BPD ? To me that is a choice and a secretive way to live that only builds up barriers to a lasting relationship . They come in the relationship knowing this! They hold all the cards and pretend to be on the same page as you when they can't even open the book! Maybe we are responsible for the part that once the devalue stage came why didn't we leave or set proper boundaries . I agree that is where I messed up. But I thought we had so many other things going for us and I was invested . It's hard to say what we should think about our part in this. Because our intentions were pure while theirs were calculated. They needed us and when they didn't they acted out. Able to do so because they weren't investing as we were or as they claimed they were. They had other supplies to keep them from fully investing. Just my opinion though

AGREE with you 100% itstopsnow. Thank you! And they never stop, once we are discarded it is off to the next victim. Yes they are emotional predators.  And no there are no happy endings, there have been no examples that I have been given in the past, BPD cannot live a harmonious mutually loving honest life with someone who loves them.  Best that we move forward.

[Newton]

If they are suffering from BPD... .and we suggest they 'calculated' to behave this way, then this presumes they have exhibited a genuine cognitive process with a goal in mind... .as opposed to a false self attempting to quell multiple levels of emotional dysregulation and dysfunction... .and we would be incorrect in our presumption.

[joeramabeme]

Really good thread.  Somewhat contentious - Good!  We are all at different places in our recoveries and trying to internalize and learn about what happened.  :)ifferent opinions to be expected and healthy challenge to our own points of view.

Personally, I have been of both minds at different times and could point to different pieces of evidence that would indicate both outcomes are possible.  

In general, people are not linear - not all black and not all white.  The comment about BPD being a spectrum illness translates to some people are more emotionally/logically on the white or black side of the scale - while the majority of us are in the grey.  

For me, just thinking about it this way indicates that our pwBPD traits is unlikely a predator with a malicious mindset lurking for an innocent heart to break.  Instead there are likely to be people with some traits that are very dark and others gray and others white.  Where they act from or live on that spectrum is probably more about fear than anything else.  Intentional predation seems highly unlikely.

[Itstopsnow]

That's not what I'm saying. I don't think a person with BPD is like a sociopath . I don't think they look to prey upon you. But in the end that's what happens . I don't think they set out to do it. They may genuinely like and love you best to their abilities . I think mine did love me the best he could. But with that being said. They do know right from wrong. And when they start serial cheating, manipulating, lying. They know what they are doing. It's in their control. The reason is irrelevant whether it's fear or engulfment . The bottom line is they are selfish, self seeking people. That don't know the meaning of the word love! Love is sacrificing and giving and nurturing and building up and helping. They only know how to take. They live a parasitic lifestyle . It may not sound nice because it isn't. But it's true. They have a deeply wounded core and true borderline under function in many areas of life. I know they have pain in their lives but they inflict more on ours by their selfish, acting out because they can't love properly. They don't know how to. They don't trust love, us, or themselves . They act out be damn the cost or price . The wiring is messed up they believe they are justified hurting us. And that makes them not good people either. To live in black and white. Either they love or hate! That's not real love then. Because you can't take love away that ficklely. They have a bad character and core. I know it's not all their fault that damn BPD affects so much of their personality that it becomes part of who they are. Deep therapy may help but might not ever be 100% stable. It's a very serious mental illness:/disorder

[once removed]

for the record, hopealways, you were pointed to the story of EaglesJuJu, but so things are clear, im going to point you to this thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=113820.msg12287696#msg12287696

particularly, the member Steph. member babyducks has a success story too.

our experience is our experience. it helps no one to project our experience onto others. members are here to heal and gain understanding. telling others that they are victims to a con game doesnt help, and worse, its inaccurate (clinically, as well as pertaining to most of our experiences). it may be your experience, im not trying to take that away from you. to say that pwBPD are emotional predators, to act as if each pwBPD is the same, to say no relationship involving a pwBPD has any hope, is all factually inaccurate and helps no one gain understanding.

to describe people, or a group of people, as evil, bad, not good people, is black and white thinking. painting with a broad brush is just that - painting.

[NCEA]

It is not only a matter of lack of control.

Mine, for example, was playing "Facebook games". She would almost never post but when she did it was some kind of a message, either to me or someone else. A song titled "it's a fools love", a quote about leaving people behind, etc, always designed to stress me or the ex or who knows who else in an ongoing mind game.

She'd wait for me to be vulnerable and express my emotions only to answer coldly and hurt me. She'd use subtle insults and triangulation. That's not simply lack of control, that's psychological warfare. Women know exactly what they do and how they can effect us, they start noticing it at an early age. Some use their edge in communication better than others, some abuse their power. It is "soft power", the power of the perceived weak who slowly but surly puts a knife thru your heart and then twists it for his own pleasure.

No, it's not just lack of control.

In my case her father abandoned her early on and she's getting back at men as revenge. It's all a game. All conscious? No, but it comes out in everything she does.

As for the original post - hang in there. You've been exposed to toxic radiation, you just need to wait for all of it to come out. It will take 1-2 years. 180 days is amazing, you should treat yourself to some unhealthy food or some other treat. When I'm down I go to this Greek cafe where they serve the best hot chocolate in the world. It's probably 1000 calories but I write it off as medication for the soul.

[hopealways]

for the record, hopealways, you were pointed to the story of EaglesJuJu, but so things are clear, im going to point you to this thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=113820.msg12287696#msg12287696

particularly, the member Steph. member babyducks has a success story too.

our experience is our experience. it helps no one to project our experience onto others. members are here to heal and gain understanding. telling others that they are victims to a con game doesnt help, and worse, its inaccurate (clinically, as well as pertaining to most of our experiences). it may be your experience, im not trying to take that away from you. to say that pwBPD are emotional predators, to act as if each pwBPD is the same, to say no relationship involving a pwBPD has any hope, is all factually inaccurate and helps no one gain understanding.

to describe people, or a group of people, as evil, bad, not good people, is black and white thinking. painting with a broad brush is just that - painting.

Sorry onceremoved but disparaging board members like myself and mischaracterizing what we say is not right and doesn't help. As a moderator you should know better.  

In my experience they are in fact emotional predators, so please don't try to rewrite my history or disparage my opinions.

I never said the relationships have no hope, I said there are no happy endings.  None of these "success stories" have been tracked long enough for us to know how they have truly ended up.  Are they truly harmonious and loving? Or do the rages merely quiet so the non is satisfied? There are so many questions that cannot be answered by anyone but all the parties in those relationships. There remains no cure for BPD.  Therapy is not a cure, it alleviates certain behavior at best.

I also never said we are victims to a "con game".  But we are victims. And there is no shame in admitting that. The fact is the BPD know right from wrong.  They are able to seduce during the idealization stage and behave without acting out, yet will do a complete 180 during devaluation.  There are plenty of examples on this forum of this behavior.  It's not a game, it's just how they are. That is the nature of this emotional disorder.  I am beyond characterizing them as bad or good and have never done that as you suggest.  But their actions are hurtful and destructive at the least and I, for one, will be staying away from hurtful and destructive people.

[hopealways]

A story about mine:

She once seduced a famous actor at some party. They ended up in an elevator together , he invited her to his room and she told him "I have good news and bad news - the good, I'm not wearing underwear. The bad - I'm on my way to my see my lover".

That's a James Bond script right there, someone who is out to kill. She told me she seduced that actor just to see if she could. To call this "lack of control " is naïve. This is nothing but control. Sure at times they lose control but that's just the other side of the spectrum.

Absolutely this is yet another example of control, manipulation, predation, knowing right from wrong all wrapped up in a package of seduction.

[NCEA]

She was predatoring me for 3 years before we met the 2nd time.  She'd email me letting me know she's on a "sort of a break from my boyfriend" - as she couldn't flat out write me "I have a boyfriend but that doesn't mean anything".

With the prior boyfriend she, in her own words, "lived a double life" - as in having two relationships in the same time. She told me that when I asked "whats the worse thing you've ever done?"

Is that lack of control?

It went on for about a year.  People don't "not control themselves" for a whole year. They go on with it because it is pleasurable. One boyfriend who is being cheated on, who she can victimize, then another boyfriend she can conspire with... .a whole drama. Why not, right? Life is boring for these people so they need it.

[1minuteatatime]

Also to add to that... .If and when they come back it is sometimes also do to who they were when they were with you! Since they lack a true sense of self. They either mirror or camouflage themselves with your traits. If you were with her for a significant amount of time, your traits became hers. So they miss that part of themselves that they were when they were with you. It's never about us! It's always about them and their needs. And we shouldn't take it personally because that part of their emotional growth hasn't evolved past that of a small child. It's hard not to take it personally when we truly loved them. Their love is infantile and mostly self seeking. They may miss us from time to time but it's more about their pain and their loss . Not actually us

Isn't that the case with us also?

We don't like them, we like our image from idealization phase so we crave for more... .

Blackbird-  I agree completely.  Mine bragged about being able to instantly mirror complete strangers.  In both mannerisms and speech patterns.  She was my anima.  I dreamed about her.  But really, I was dreaming about me.  :)eep stuff.  Really deep.  

I knew she was mirroring me and she still got in my head.  I am attracted to her physically but the mental attraction is my thing.  She knew/figured it out and that was her thing.  Sex was just so-so.    I protected myself as much as possible.(for me, mentally)  

I should have treated her like my ex-wife.  Very distant.  Complete leadership and complete stubbornness on a few things(exercise, sleep, diet) coupled with learning how to validate(I am just starting to learn the skill.  Using it to deepen relationship with my sister).  

My ex wife was never mentally attractive.(also BPD) She was not physically that attractive, either... . She went off the pill(on purpose) and I didn't use protection.  She admitted it.

I didn't know what validating was a week or two ago.  No wonder I am such an insensitive jerk sometimes.  I own 40% of the blame on my 100% that I didn't give.  I know that it takes two to tango.

This experience will make me a better person.  Boundaries.(at the end had poor ones)  Set boundaries when things are calm, not in the middle of the storm. Emotional leadership.(got emotional during the holidays like normal)  Ok to say no to stuff I didn't want to do(I didn't at the end)  VALIDATION!  Take the "long view" like I do with my family(Kids, mom, siblings, etc)  Share feelings, don't hide feelings, anxieties, fears, whatever.  That's being a man.  I also know that my heart is open to love, now.

[Beach_Babe]

There is nothing wrong with stating what it was, that they were the predators and we were the victims. Again, blaming the non for not seeing red flags is absolutely wrong.  Their predatory nature presumes that their prey is ignorant of their behavior.  Now we know and have insight but I disagree that the non bears responsibility in any of this when the BPD's behavior is so calculated, pathological and horrific.

I agree. I was not aware BPDs were predatory, however... thought  this was more of a NPD/ASPD thing?

[Itstopsnow]

Mine absolutely preyed 100% on me. Was my spiritual director in 2012 for 2 months. We never talked on the phone or emailed . I never hung out with him outside of church. Two years later he contacts me for coffee. We meet, starts texting me daily. Tells me he's leaving the priesthood and it's not because of me. He was praying about it for a year since his nephews were born. He knew all my weaknesses and insecurities . Even used a confession against me during a fight! He even says when we were breaking up... That he could never get a girl like me again, that I admired him bc he was a priest . I did admire him . I thought he was a very different man. When he was with his other gf he lied to her and said I drank, did drugs and went clubbing. I haven't done any of that stuff since my early 20's. He flat out lied. We never drank ever. I liked that he wasn't a drinker. They do prey. They usually chose down they say about borderlines. Either someone with low self esteem or someone they think they are more attractive then.  They want the upper hand! If that's not manipulation I don't know what is. Again I don't think they hunt you out like a sociopath . I believe they are driven by fear and the ideal of love! They love to love! The chase. It's not about you it's about them and their needs. So if you look at it that way.  We are just an object of the moment. You can call it prey. They may not mean to use us. But they do. And they deep down know they can't give more. Sometimes you'll see them break down and cry and tell you that you deserve better! And you know what they are right. It's part of their shame surfacing . And their low self worth. It is sad what is going on with them! I do feel bad for them on a certain level of course! But they are so destructive they end up attacking their main source of comfort and stability which they crave but can't obtain bc of their chaos

[borderdude]

As for the pray, predator question: If a child is drowning in the sea, and trying to save its life manipulating you to take action, You would not call that for manipulating behavior? or cold calculated predator action?

They need a rescue because they avoid inner pain, without being able to engage empathy they choose objects for their own salvation (us) . The rest becomes your own interpretation.

if they got bad execution control, or immature, they should not be good at calculated advanced manipulations?

they want objects for feeding their security, just like children and more is better, but it is a protection mechanism.

[borderdude]

As for the pray, predator question: If a child is drowning in the sea, and trying to save its life manipulating you to take action, You would not call that for manipulating behavior? or cold calculated predator action?

They need a rescue because they avoid inner pain, without being able to engage empathy they choose objects for their own salvation (us) . The rest becomes your own interpretation.

if they got bad execution control, or immature, they should not be good at calculated advanced manipulations?

they want objects for feeding their security, just like children and more is better, but it is a protection mechanism.

For them we are attachments , not whole humans. They are not able to see wholeness, to do that you must see the grey zones, not only black white. And why not more than one attachment or as backup?, it is more secure for them? At the same time we become dangerous if we develop to close connections, then we become an enemy which must be discarded. But at the same time not to far off so they lose their attachment. It is not about you, only their way of herding a collection of objects for attachments serving a purpose.

my ex got engaged because she needed the ring on the finger, the symbol, the status on facebook, but not the person or token following with it all. She did not engage because it was for the best as a couple, nor anything to do with him or hes emotions, they did not count, only her idea for being normal in her fantasy.

Actually the last could be defined as a predator actions, I am not sure.

[zeus123]

i agree with borderdude and i like to add that for them(BPDs) we are just a piece of meat, an accessory that is required. that's how they view us.

[borderdude]

i agree with borderdude and i like to add that for them(BPDs) we are just a piece of meat, an accessory that is required. that's how they view us.

Normal ppl would meet a person , and if they feel everything works out go for an engagement when the time is appropriate for both.

In this case: I need to get engaged, so I must find an "object" appropriate for serving this purpose and realize this as soon as possible because it fits me and will rescue my poor state.

[NCEA]

You know guys, in the US the whole dating and marriage scene is much more "cunning" and a "market" than in other places, that's another part of it. People hook up with people they see as valuable in their careers, for money, for other superficial reasons, more than in other cultures.  I bet Los Angeles is disproportionately represented in this board, there it's the worst.

[GreenEyedMonster]

i agree with borderdude and i like to add that for them(BPDs) we are just a piece of meat, an accessory that is required. that's how they view us.

This is an accurate description of AsPD or maybe NPD, but not BPD.  Are you sure your partner didn't have something more serious?

[borderdude]

i agree with borderdude and i like to add that for them(BPDs) we are just a piece of meat, an accessory that is required. that's how they view us.

This is an accurate description of AsPD or maybe NPD, but not BPD.  Are you sure your partner didn't have something more serious?

here is the full engagement story: her new bf broke the rs every second week because of her immature strange behavior and this on off pattern lasted months, she always manipulated him back. So what is her solution? To go inside and find the problem in her self?, to ask for a meeting and discuss issues?

She has a long pattern of violent crazy rs all her life.

no her solution was to buy engagement rings, because that would solve their rs problems!

How crazy is that?

[once removed]

i see youve dismissed the success stories you repeatedly denied exist on this board.

Sorry onceremoved but disparaging board members like myself and mischaracterizing what we say is not right and doesn't help. As a moderator you should know better.  

is pointing out black and white thinking disparaging? its something we all do. in fact some things should be black and white.

[Skip]

Hopefully no one is invalidating your hurt - I don't get that sense in reading here - your hurt is real and deep - anyone can see that in your words.

One of the problems we can get into is attaching our personal emotional experience to universal statements about the internal motivations of 18 million people with BPD and maybe 20 million more with traits. What we feel and how things look to us (especially in love) is not necessarily a reflection of the other person. And in cases of mental illness, or even traits (which is what most of us were dealing with), the mismatch tends to be greater.

Make sense?

So going to this idea of "prey", because it is a reoccurring theme in your post history (and some others)... .think about what animals of prey are for a minute.

I love horses. They are animals of prey. Their entire existence is one of fear or wariness. Take your horse for a ride around the lot and he is looking, looking, looking for something to be off, out of order.

           WOW! That wheelbarrow wasn't there yesterday. Let's get away! Oh no, those leaves moved, run.

Now my 90 lb dog (prey animal), walks around behind the horse in total peace and tranquility.

           I'm happy! That wheelbarrow wasn't there yesterday. Yea! Let's go see if there is food in it.

You will see members posts on the New Relationships board that sound like a horse (He was late for the first date, NPD?).  You will see others that operate like a dog (He was late for the first date? Have to keep me eye on that.).

With 28% of the population having a diagnosable mental condition or addiction, its a tough place to live life as a horse (prey).

This is really the essence of the conversation as it pertains here.

Skip

[borderdude]

i agree with borderdude and i like to add that for them(BPDs) we are just a piece of meat, an accessory that is required. that's how they view us.

This is an accurate description of AsPD or maybe NPD, but not BPD.  Are you sure your partner didn't have something more serious?

A good question, anyway I did not extensively try to give her a specific diagnostic. She was perfect except from one thing: Extreme Immaturity! That is now officially a disorder in its own, else she was really kind and lacked those outbursts, angry stuff often mentioned. She was like a 6yo afraid of loosing her detachments. So if I took her for a child in an adult body it all made sense. She could engage in self hurting.

[hopealways]

I absolutely agree that the BPD is a core wounded person with arrested emotional development, but they hurt others whereas the non loves and cares for others.  That is a significant difference.  I have had friends who have been physically hurt by their BPD lover and since they are men they never report it.  That's a shame.  At some point we have to see abuse whether emotional or physical for what it is and hold the BPD accountable for their actions instead of trying to give them a pass each time because of their disorder.

[C.Stein]

Personally it just doesn't sit right with me to paint such broad strokes when it comes to people with BPD or any PD ... .especially given the vast majority on this board are undiagnosed.  It just seems like a lot of finger pointing without any rational thought attached.  Yes, it is easier to heap all the blame onto the shoulders of the one that hurt us, but relationships are the interaction of two people.  If this were not true then you would not have been in a relationship.  

While you will see many similarities here between our ex's, there are just as many dissimilarities.  I can certainly relate many observations of my ex's behavior to those of others here.  I also find myself saying more times than not that she was nothing like this.  Point being here "they" are not all the same.  We, each and every one of us, are different in significant ways.  The pwBPD and just as variable and different as us "nons".  If you are going to make broad generalizations about people with pwBPD then it is only fair to make the same type of broad generalizations about "nons".  So given that would it be fair to say all 'nons" like to be emotionally abused, like to be doormats, have no self-esteem or self-worth, etc... .?

If someone does something that they feel justified in doing, something they truly feel is not wrong, does that make them predatory or just confused and deluded?   If any one of us "nons" does the same thing does it also make us predatory?  Lets be honest here, we all have done questionable things in relationships, some of which might be considered "predatory".  It is all a matter of perspective.   And what is right or wrong anyhow?  What is right for one person might be considered wrong by another.  So who is really "right"?  I let my ex push me over the edge on a few occasions and I "raged" on her.  :)id I feel justified and right doing so?  At the time I did, but afterwards I felt guilty for "losing it".  What was right for me at that moment in time was wrong for me once I was able to think rationally with logic, not loaded emotions.  I am not a person who rages on people, that is just not who I am, but I can if right buttons are pushed.  

While I can believe that some pwBPD do hurtful things intentionally, even consciously, I also believe that many of their actions are not intentionally hurtful or calculated.   For example my ex displayed both.  She has knowingly done things that hurt me and other things that she truly did not understand or see how it was hurtful.

Unless we were all tied up and physically held against our will we all freely chose to "swim with the sharks".   Does this excuse what was done to us ... .HELL NO ... .but let's not forget we chose to get into relationships with our ex's and many of us chose to remain even after numerous "real" red flags were waived in our faces time after time again.



p.s. Yes, one of the hardest things to accept is knowing I will probably never hear from her again.  

[Scopikaz]

I know In my relationship with someone I only highly suspect has BPD, I definitely did things wrong or missed red flags or ignored them or failed to put all pieces together.  Mine started out as affair.  I who supposedly am the non and should have known better had an affair.

She divorced and we started dating. I kept texting former female friends (who I've known 25 years or more) as well as former girlfriends I remained friends with. That triggered her jealousy and instead of fully stopping I allowed it to become a huge argument.  And also lied about it. That's my fault. Not hers.

I also had her move in and then was on fb too much or got frustrated/OCD when she moved stuff around. That invalidated her. Heck I loved her and should have been glad she wanted my time and attention and to help redecorate. 


All those were my fault.

Had I have recognized possible depth of her issues maybe I wouldn't have done those things. But I did. And In the end she left.

[Skip]

Thanks for your post SKIP. BPD is so new in the psychiatric world it was only DSM classified in the 1980's and the DSM V diagnosis is very different than the DSM IV diagnosis. So there is some truth to saying that we don't really understand this disorder as much as we would like.

Quick fact check: The DSM IV and DSM 5* criteria are exactly the same. The DSM 5 criteria are here, in full detail (2,000 words). To my knowledge, this is the only place it appears on the web.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder

From a psychology point of view, it is very well understood. The lack of understanding extends to the neurobiological mechanisms. There is also some professional discussion about a better scheme for describing co-morbid conditions (appears in DSM appendix).



* New numbering scheme to anticipate a 5.1, 5.2, etc.

[honeysuckle]

I don't feel anyone should aggressively force an opinion nor have to defend one when it comes to coming to terms with a BPD relationship ending. The one thing I do know is that you will never know what is going on in their heads. It comes down to that. Like all BPD's are different, we "nons" have to understand it in the way that best suits us. Some need to remain sympathetic others need to see it as predatory. There are plenty of sites out there that promote both. I have personally felt both. Like the relationship stages they act differently in each stage. They should be held responsible for their actions. period. They tend to often abuse people. You can say hey they don't mean to or you can say they are "crazy." You can decide either or neither and still realize that there is something that needs to change in us for it not to happen to us again. I was absolutely a victim. I was absolutely abused. I didn't even realize it until I was so far in I didn't know how to get out. Once I did I often wanted back in to stop the pain. This is common in abuse. The devaluation stage is often dealt with intentional behavior on their part with lies and secrecy. But in the idealization phase they do tend to seek out wounded people. As they are themselves wounded. Maybe that was not your experience but it is common. These sites that promote "negative" also promote NC and moving on. In the end isn't that what we on THIS board are looking to do?

[Skip]

Sure I could go on and on about the hell she put me through.  Looking back I think everything she did was a lie, all manipulations.  She even used that word many times, one time saying she "was the only person who could manipulate her ex".  So sick these people are.  And the longer we keep them in our lives the more of their sickness is absorbed by us.

Hard question... .is your current 180 NC from this SO or from a different SO?

10. FINALLY, WHENEVER I START MISSING HER I REMIND MYSELF THAT IT IS NOT HER WHO I AM MISSING, IT IS THE LACK OF LOVE I HAD AS A CHILD THAT I MISS, WHICH SHE MANIFESTED, AND WHICH I AM HEALING, FINALLY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE. There is always a positive result to a very bad situation and this is the result in mine.

This is a particulately insightful advance (2013) from a worthy advisor.  

[Conundrum]

At some point we have to see abuse whether emotional or physical for what it is and hold the BPD accountable for their actions instead of trying to give them a pass each time because of their disorder.

We hold individuals accountable by not clinging to an attachment that does not benefit us. When we see the beauty within our own lives, and are content with the elements that comprise a meaningful life--it is much more natural to feel compassion for those afflicted with relational disorders. Because one is not dependent upon another who possesses relational traits that are filled with an excess intense energy--both wondrously positive and brutally negative. Those characteristics rapidly cycle, ushering the swirling storm into the lives of those who pair with them.

Ex post facto we deride these individuals, yet ab initio they meant the world to us. Is either one clear perception? The benefit of knowledge is that we are able to learn something about people who suffer from significant personality/relational disorders and something about ourselves. That beauty, passion and love does not always come into our lives in a relationally stable package. That there are very damaged people, who are programmed by broken mechanisms which keep them trapped in destructive relational cycles.

Having experienced a person with this type of disorder what do we learn? Are we willing to let go of the hurt from the demise of those idyllic aspirations that we fancifully constructed with them--and clearly perceive. There are things beyond any philosophy that you and I perhaps ever relationally considered or encountered--and a relationship with a pwBPD falls among those elements.

When we let go of the desire for that idyllic relationship and and master our feelings, the door to compassion opens. We are able to perceive aspects that are more true than false. First, a person with BPD never progresses and manages the disorder unless at a core level they choose that path for themselves. The agent of change may be factually diverse but it is often conjoined to internalizing the consequences of maladaptive behaviors. As we all know many are recalcitrant and do not choose that path. Interacting with a person who does not desire to relationally improve causes further suffering and it is not beneficial. We neither possess the obligation, nor power to change another. It is painful to detach from someone whom we have/had strong feelings for--when they do not improve. Yet, it would be folly to subject ourselves to those destructive cycles in perpetuity. The question that we often confront is--when we know that our person with BPD has chosen not to improve, and the relationship that we desire with them will not be--why do we suffer for such protracted terms. That question, is one of self-discovery, and I believe the answers lie beyond the scope of the predator/victim paradigm.

[steve195915]

I don't think so blackbirdson. It is nothing like us. Sure we all loved the idealizing phase when they wanted our time and affection. But most would of been happy to mellow out in a normal relationship. Their "other self" is full of anger, rage, selfishness, childness. I don't think their is a person on this earth that would want that or to have to deal with that on a regular basis. They sold us a false bill of goods. They only have what it takes to start out a relationship. They don't have what it takes to sustain and nourish it

I see your point, really do. That was my opinion at the beginning.

But now, I think this is just one perspective. After the relationship with BPD partner ends, especially if they left us, we have narcissistic wound, and now I am pretty sure that most of the people whose stories I read every day have this.

We feel cheated, we say that they showed their true face only after.

But guess what, they didn't hide BPD from beginning, the red flags were there from beginning. There were red flags that someone else ignored and walked away, didn't even start relationship with BPD.

We have our own emotional issues that connected us with BPD, I am pretty sure in this pre-condition... .Really, I am - after all introspective work and also by reading many stories here.  I am not saying that emotionally stable person cannot enter a relationship with BPD, but they won't connect in a way we did.

Don't think of BPD persons like bad persons who manipulated you, by wearing a mask on purpose. It won't help you, won't help your healing.

You said:

I don't think their is a person on this earth that would want that or to have to deal with that on a regular basis. They sold us a false bill of goods.

In the same way, there is no person on this earth who wants to have BPD.

It takes two to tango... .Accept your part of responsibility for entering the relationship, do your inner work, find out what attracted you to the BPD person and too extreme idealization phase, to the "wounded girl" that you wanted to save and give everything, even yourself - completely.  

You sure make a lot of assumptions Blackbirdsong.  Not all relationships are identical and just because we started a relationship with a pwBPD doesn't mean we all have major emotional issues.  They definitely can hide what they truly are capable of in the beginning of the relationship.   All relationships, yes normal ones, always have that honeymoon phase at the beginning.  I didn't have an extreme idealization phase with my SO wBPD, it was in fact very normal and I often found myself thinking how lucky I was at my age in the 50s to find a woman that was attractive and seemed to have a good head on her shoulders and seemed so normal without a lot of baggage. She was on her best behavior during this phase.  There were no red flags that would lead me to think she had BPD and could be capable to act as she eventually did.  Sure there were minor things but nothing out of the ordinary.  So yes I fell in love after a time.  No it was not because I had emotional issues.  I believe she could have gotten a lot of guys to fall in love with her, there were definitely a lot of guys interested.  She was attractive, outgoing and fun, and seemed very happy.  

Then little by little things began to change but even in a non-non relationship things are not perfect and you try to communicate and work things out.  A decent normal person wouldn't leave on the first sign trouble, you try to work things out especially when you felt such a deep connection and you thought it was mutual commitment to make things work.  What the issue here is the pwBPD doesn't play by the normal rules of a relationship.  They may say and show you they love you one day, and the next day can attack you verbally, lie, cheat, and act as you meant nothing at all to them, then the next day they want you back.  Yes they manipulate you.  Whether it's intentional or just part of their mental illness is irrelevant.  So yes we get fooled as it's difficult to comprehend how they can change like this, it is true that love can be blind sometimes.  A normal relationship between non's would end after a certain point when at least one of them decides it's not going to work and it would be discussed or understood and then there's closure and you move on.  With a pwBPD it doesn't end, they keep the door open and pull you back in, they give you hope, tell you they love you and you believe them, why wouldn't you?  Then they push you away, then pull you back... .so of course after it's over we feel manipulated and cheated. Yes we were put through emotional abuse, whether it was intentional by our SO pwBPD or not is irrelevant.  Yes it takes two to tango, but our responsibility is how many times we allow this to happen before we finally call it quits.  Yes some of us non's may have emotional issues that allow this to go on for years and years, or some may other considerations... .maybe got married and/or have kids before the worst came out.   There are certainly other conditions in making a decision to stay and try to make things better or end it.  Others may just have personality traits,  be very loving and giving, a caregiver and desire to commit ourselves completely to a relationship, not wanting to give up and a desire to help others in need.  These are not emotional issues, in fact they are wonderful qualities and can lead to great loving relationships.  But when a person like this come in contact with a pwBPD, their good nature can be easily taken advantage of. To say we have emotional issues and need to accept equal responsibility is ridiculous.  It's like saying if a thief breaks into our home and steals our valuables, we are equally responsible because we had valuables in our homes.  Even if we left our door unlocked, it still doesn't justify the thief stealing our valuables even though we should have been more careful.

Yes we should all look at our failed relationships, and decide personally if we have emotional needs or issues to work on that caused us to remain in our relationship with a pwBPD for so long.  Maybe we let ourselves go too fast.

Part of the healing process and to assure we don't fall into the same trap in the future, is to have an awareness we were in a relationship with someone that wasn't capable to love as we know it.  They are capable of lying, cheating, verbal and emotional abuse, possibly physical abuse, manipulation, push/pull, and all the other traits, but whether it's conscious or just part of their reactions due to their emotional dysfunction really doesn't matter.  The pwBPD cannot show love that's consistent.    

For me, knowing what I know now about BPD, if I meet someone that had the same personality as my ex when I met her, yes I would go out with her because all seemed so normal.  One thing I'd do different is ask more questions about her childhood, and if there was some sort of abandonment issues or abuse, I'd be extremely cautious in giving my heart again.  I'd also be more aware of any anger issues, and excessive push/pull attributes.  I also don't want to be so cautious that I look for BPD on every little sign and don't allow a relationship to happen because I'm too suspecting.  Even non's have days where they're sad or moody, and normal relationships may have some push/pull dynamics.    

[hopealways]

Sure I could go on and on about the hell she put me through.  Looking back I think everything she did was a lie, all manipulations.  She even used that word many times, one time saying she "was the only person who could manipulate her ex".  So sick these people are.  And the longer we keep them in our lives the more of their sickness is absorbed by us.

Hard question... .is your current 180 NC from this SO or from a different SO?

10. FINALLY, WHENEVER I START MISSING HER I REMIND MYSELF THAT IT IS NOT HER WHO I AM MISSING, IT IS THE LACK OF LOVE I HAD AS A CHILD THAT I MISS, WHICH SHE MANIFESTED, AND WHICH I AM HEALING, FINALLY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE. There is always a positive result to a very bad situation and this is the result in mine.

This is a particulately insightful advance (2013) from a worthy advisor.  

Thanks so much SKIP. Sadly, the 2013 posts were from this SO. She recycled me more times than I can remember. Each time it was 1-3 months of distancing/recycling/breakup not even sure what to call it. I think this time it is for good. Trying to move forward and learn to basically walk again.

[Skip]

So sick these people are.  And the longer we keep them in our lives the more of their sickness is absorbed by us.

She recycled me more times than I can remember.

I think this time it is for good.

Her call?

[hopealways]

It shouldn't be her call it should be my call, and I understand this. My pain is still so great that I think if she comes around the endorphin release would be so high I would take her back. Which is why I am hoping to reach a point soon where my pain has gone down enough and I have truly moved on to be able to be strong enough to say no.

Today I feel better than yesterday. The 180 day mark gave me anxiety so yesterday was tough but now that I see that I made it through it gave me a sense of strength, i.e. I can do it.

[Skip]

At some point we have to see abuse whether emotional or physical for what it is and hold the BPD accountable for their actions instead of trying to give them a pass each time because of their disorder.

Have you done this?

I sense some irritation with others for not holding their partners accountable (or conceptually pwBPD traits as a whole) - abusers to use your word - but isn't recycling the relationship the ultimate pass?

I think everything she did was a lie, all manipulations.  She even used that word many times, one time saying she "was the only person who could manipulate her ex".  So sick these people are.  And the longer we keep them in our lives the more of their sickness is absorbed by us.

While you identify her as "So sick these people are", the fact is you will go back if she wants too.

I'm busting you here a bit - hopefully not too hard - out of compassion for your anguish.  You have been recycling with her for years.  

You read Shari Schreiber and Tara Palmatier.  You have two (2) posts on the staying board where we teach basic DBT, communication, and self care skills. Two.

Do you see a disconnect here?

Its like a dialectical dilemma.  On the one hand you see her as broken and prescribe to websites that describe the disorder in monstrous terms.  On the other hand, you love her and want her so much, you'll go back in a minute.

You can't believe both so you bounce back and forth like a ball and paddle. But there is a very significant reason why you have these inconsistent beliefs... You need to tap into  that.



I think members are trying to get you to a better reality base. The benefit is that you have a much higher likelihood of balancing / solving the dialectical dilemma - and finding peace -  if you do.

[Fr4nz]

At some point we have to see abuse whether emotional or physical for what it is and hold the BPD accountable for their actions instead of trying to give them a pass each time because of their disorder.

We hold individuals accountable by not clinging to an attachment that does not benefit us. When we see the beauty within our own lives, and are content with the elements that comprise a meaningful life--it is much more natural to feel compassion for those afflicted with relational disorders. Because one is not dependent upon another who possesses relational traits that are filled with an excess intense energy--both wondrously positive and brutally negative. Those characteristics rapidly cycle, ushering the swirling storm into the lives of those who pair with them.

Ex post facto we deride these individuals, yet ab initio they meant the world to us. Is either one clear perception? The benefit of knowledge is that we are able to learn something about people who suffer from significant personality/relational disorders and something about ourselves. That beauty, passion and love does not always come into our lives in a relationally stable package. That there are very damaged people, who are programmed by broken mechanisms which keep them trapped in destructive relational cycles.

Having experienced a person with this type of disorder what do we learn? Are we willing to let go of the hurt from the demise of those idyllic aspirations that we fancifully constructed with them--and clearly perceive. There are things beyond any philosophy that you and I perhaps ever relationally considered or encountered--and a relationship with a pwBPD falls among those elements.

When we let go of the desire for that idyllic relationship and and master our feelings, the door to compassion opens. We are able to perceive aspects that are more true than false. First, a person with BPD never progresses and manages the disorder unless at a core level they choose that path for themselves. The agent of change may be factually diverse but it is often conjoined to internalizing the consequences of maladaptive behaviors. As we all know many are recalcitrant and do not choose that path. Interacting with a person who does not desire to relationally improve causes further suffering and it is not beneficial. We neither possess the obligation, nor power to change another. It is painful to detach from someone whom we have/had strong feelings for--when they do not improve. Yet, it would be folly to subject ourselves to those destructive cycles in perpetuity. The question that we often confront is--when we know that our person with BPD has chosen not to improve, and the relationship that we desire with them will not be--why do we suffer for such protracted terms. That question, is one of self-discovery, and I believe the answers lie beyond the scope of the predator/victim paradigm.

Another extremely brilliant and insightful post Conundrum. Bravo!

[borderdude]

 lets take an example to what my BPD ex did with some of her exes:

After initiating a rs, she needed a partner for living together, because that is what the normal people did in her view, and she needed it fast.

The new "victim" went along to her wish and agreed to living in the same house as a cohabitant. The same day scheduled for moving in to her place , she ordered the people moving his stuff to place everything on the pavement outside the house, since she already  had found another potential partner serving her needs better.

That woman is now looking for a new cohabitant, since her current is not living up to the task, as you might have thought , she got no, zero ability to produce any empathy for another person nor take responsibility, it is all about fulfilling her fantasies, just as a small child. Having a cohabitant with status as engaged is the ultimate goal, but it seems difficult.

holy macro... .