Another morning validation challenge...help me learn here

[formflier]

  OK, Big picture here.  As Notwendy and others are pointing out, my wife is really trying to communicate and is frustrated.  I've avoided texting about "emotional" or other issues for a long time.  You will see why below.  However, I think this is an area I can loosen up a bit in.  Especially when trying to validate, compliment or otherwise get some basic messages out there.    So, pretty standard morning here, possibly even a bit better than normal.  Then she gets in car to go to work.  I get a call fairly quickly asking where I put the aux cord (so she can play music from phone on stereo).  My answer was "I don't know."  I barely got that out when she was saying I was the last one to drive it, so it had to be me.  I said:  "Things being misplaced is so frustrating.  I hope you find it.  I used the charging cord this morning, but not the aux"  History:  She wants me to use the care to take kids to the bus stop so that it's warmed up in the morning for her.  It's also the cheapest vehicle to operate for this purpose and her commute.  So it makes sense.    She said back to me:  (and there was a lot of emotion) "So, you are telling me that you were the last one to drive it and you didn't move the aux cord"    I said "Yes, ff wife, that is what I am saying"  I don't think she heard all of it because of the click of her hanging up.  Then, the texting starts.  Between 3 and 4 minutes after she hung up the phone on me.  Texting below.  I attempted to validate.  Also put some compliments in there (possible invalidation?)    Also, check out the thing where she is wanting me to be specific about who I am talking about.  It's been a while, but she will want to be called by her name and then usually after a couple of communications back and forth she will accuse me of being a jerk or "making a point" by using her name.    But again, this hasn't come up in a while.  Backpacks:  While at a store she found several that were being clearance for like $2 a piece.  Got several for us and picked up some for her students that she knew needed them.     My goal was to say something nice, pay her compliment, and hopefully get her mind off the aux cord.    The tummyache comment was tossed in there because we had a kid with one this morning, she comforted him some.   So, timestamp on her phone call was 7:51 as were several texts.  She called an accused me of being "deliberately vague" to piss her off"  I remained calm, used her name and said that I felt lucky to have her.  Tried to validate texting being frustrating, and let her know that I clarified via text that I was talking about her.  Through the entire phone call I would describe her as "ramping up".  She was incensed that she "didn't get the text"    Then she texts a bit more and goes silent.  She had about 10 more minutes before she had to clock in, so it seems she made a choice to disengage.  Please help me identify places I could have validated more, and perhaps some suggestions.  Also, if you think I invalidated.    Good news for me.  Zero trigger.  So, I'm good with trying stuff like this for a while.    

FF wife: Found aux cord, someone had and plugged in and thrown it in the floor 7:43 AM  

FF wife: Unplugged it and thrown it in the floor 7:44 AM  Me: that's frustrating! 7:44 AM  Me: I hope presenting those backpacks to the school kids goes well today. They are lucky to have you for a teacher. 7:45 AM  

FF wife: Thanks and I hope our children are lucky to have me as a mother and you are lucky to have me as a wife 7:46 AM  Me: We are the luckiest family there is, 7:48 AM  ff wife: To have me as a wife and mother or we r just a lucky family? 7:49 AM  Me: As a wife, lover, mother, kisser of booboos and fixer of those with tummyaches, We are blessed, I am blessed. 7:50 AM  ff wife: By me? 7:51 AM    Me: You have a lot on your plate, hang in there, I hope the kids appreciate the backpacks 7:51 AM  Me: Yes ff wife, by you. 7:51 AM  (somewhere in here is where she called and chewed off a hunk of my a$$.)  ff wife: That text is all I got an answer to my question by me? 7:54 AM  ff wife: I did not get a chance ext saying yes, By you Dina h, 7:54 AM  Me: Me: Yes ff wife, by you. 7:51 AM 7:55 AM (this is where I forwarded the text, there is long history of her "missing" a critical text, blasting away at me and then "finding" the text later. )  ff wife: And I know you would not be purposefully vague it just to piss me off because that would be passive aggressive 7:55 AM  Me: ff wife, I'm here for you. I understand it can be frustrating to not understand my purposes, if you ever want to know my thoughts and motivations, please ask 7:57 AM  Me: I'm going to play elevator for a long time today, looking forward to some tub time this evening. ff wife, I really enjoyed our tub time last night, even though I sat there like a lump 7:59 AM  (tub time.  My back was done from carrying boxes, she had long day as well.  We both enjoyed each others company for a long soak, then went to bed)  

[sweetheart]

Reading between the lines there is a lot in here from your w about not being 'heard' perhaps not being seen, being appreciated etc

Also using the lost music lead as a metaphor for not being able to tune into something without the lost  lead perhaps this at a different level is why your w was so frustrated at its loss.

So using phrases like 'I hear you and what you say matters to me ... .' and 'it sounds like you don't feel heard by me, that perhaps I don't pay enough attention to your feelings. What can I change that will help you feel heard and appreciated'

Think of yourself as a feelings detective that is investigating the emotional subtext of your w's communication with you. Reflecting back to your w in empathetic feeling phrases will help her feel more connected.

[formflier]

  Reflecting back to your w in empathetic feeling phrases will help her feel more connected.

 So, do you think I should attempt this via text?  Every bone in my body screams no, but, we are otherwise not discussing "heavy" or even "real" stuff.  During the day when we are both, IMO, ready.  She is avoidant.  Then when I am asleep or about asleep, or otherwise compromised, she wants to "pounce".  

FF

[sweetheart]

I do think if you are validating her then 'yes' by text, you can reinforce and build on this in person then with a SET format later if necessary.

If the validation or empathetic responding doesn't work and your w is escalating in the text, just an 'I can hear you are angry and upset... .I'm really sorry you're having hard time, I am here for you when you come home"

or even 'I hear you, what you're saying really matters to me, I'm sorry if it feels like it doesn't... .'etc etc etc

It's important to take her lead at the moment and try and be where she is... .no matter how much you want to schedule 'that ff chat' because you know there is time, that will feel too controlling to her, try and be more flexible and match her rhythms (text) for a while.

[Jessica84]

This is where I see the communication breakdown:

Me: I hope presenting those backpacks to the school kids goes well today. They are lucky to have you for a teacher. 7:45 AM

FF wife: Thanks and I hope our children are lucky to have me as a mother and you are lucky to have me as a wife 7:46 AM

Me: We are the luckiest family there is... 7:48 AM

ff wife: To have me as a wife and mother or we r just a lucky family? 7:49 AM

Me: As a wife, lover, mother... .kisser of booboos and fixer of those with tummyaches... .We are blessed... .I am blessed. 7:50 AM

ff wife: By me? 7:51 AM  

Me: You have a lot on your plate... .hang in there... .I hope the kids appreciate the backpacks 7:51 AM

Me: Yes ff wife, by you. 7:51 AM  (somewhere in here is where she called and chewed off a hunk of my a$$.)

ff wife: That text is all I got an answer to my question by me? 7:54 AM

Direct answer: "Yes, you are a wonderful wife and mother."

She probably felt like she was having to pull the words out of you.

I can see all the love and kindness in what you're saying and wouldn't go looking for that much assurance... .but I don't have BPD. Your loving statements may not look so obvious to her. If she's fishing for a specific compliment, don't make her chase it.

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I see some similarities in your convo with the way I interact with with my H. He, like your wife, frequently is fishing for reassurance and compliments. I tend to be very matter-of-fact and business-like, which he interprets as "cold." I see it as a Meyers Briggs difference. He's very far on the feeling spectrum while I'm more of a thinker. When I try to reassure him and talk about feelings, I tend to be brief, so I can get back to business at hand. In fact, I feel a bit phony going on and on about how much I love him and how wonderful he is. I do love him and admire his good qualities, so that's not the problem.

It's that I talk about feelings, then I tick that box. OK, said something nice. Done with the feelings thing. What's next?

Whereas, he wants to luxuriate in verbal approval, to hear positive reinforcement in explicit detail. That's difficult for me. I appreciate hearing nice things he says about me, but when he goes into flowery language I start getting skeptical, wondering what's really going on. I'm just not wired that way and he is. So I guess I need to try a bit harder and meet him at the middle.

[formflier]

 If she's fishing for a specific compliment, don't make her chase it.

 This has appeared in the past as an invitation to fight or frustrate me.  Because, if she would let me know what and exactly how she wanted something said, as long as I didn't have a big disagreement with it.  99% sure I would say that.  Again and again if needed.   So, she wants a compliment.  I give one.  she does the "nope that's not it" thing, and I try again, and again.    If I ask for help, my ass gets chewed off.  In my other posts, usually to other people I use the charlie brown and lucy analogy.  I quit trying to kick the football.    In reality, it sort of morphed into I will try to kick it once and if it doesn't go well, I will let her know I'm available to talk later, and I go on about something else.  Usually with her flinging words at me.  

FF

[formflier]

 Cat familiar, I am businesslike as well.  I'm also fine with opening up and being more emotional, and staying there.  But if someone then starts picking at my emotions while I am open, I will close up shop and go on to something else.  I'm fine with being emotional, empathetic, vulnerable, blah blah blah, insert whatever term you want.  But it needs to be safe to do so.  Get around me and some of my other Naval Aviator buddies (bunch of retired guys now, ) and get us talking about our kids, wives or our buddies killed in line of duty and I think most people would be shocked at how "emotional" we are.  Here is the thing, I don't think any of my buds have ever done anything similar to criticizing a feeling.  Anyway,   I know what you mean and I'm generally the same way.  

FF

[Jessica84]

I get the football analogy, but it seems that validation not perceived correctly becomes invalidation. I may be wrong, but it looked to me she was fishing for a simple "I think you are a great wife and mother"... .so "I'm blessed" and "we're lucky" were missed kicks. You have every right to stop kicking if that is a boundary, but if your goal is to validate her, you might have to stay on the field a wee bit longer.

For me, saying "You are a good man" ended many dialogues like this - easily would've escalated had I not. Once it was obvious that's what he wanted from me, I just gave it to him. Especially since it's true. It does me no harm to pat him on the head this way and it brings him back to baseline, which is better for me in the end.

But your choices are yours... .and I totally respect and admire your boundaries!

[formflier]

  So, how could I have known what she wanted me to say.  I suppose I could have repeated what she said to me but in an affirmative way.  I have done that before and been called out for being unoriginal or that what I said doesn't could because "she made me".  I'm fine for trying, again I wasn't triggered or distressed or any of that out of this.   It does leave me scratching my head a bit, wondering how you figure this stuff out.  

FF

[Jessica84]

Me: We are the luckiest family there is... smiley 7:48 AM

ff wife: To have me as a wife and mother or we r just a lucky family? 7:49 AM


"I am lucky to have you as a wife, and our children are lucky to have you for a mother."

Do you see the difference?

The "kisser of booboos" and "we are blessed" is all clear as a bell to me. Just saying she may have perceived it as evading the question since this is the point where she starts getting frustrated.

[formflier]

  I do see the difference, but I don't see how I could have figured out that repeating it back like that is what she wanted.  I would not want something like that repeated back to me, although I doubt I would have ever asked that kind of question.     There is nothing wrong, with what she was wanting said or the way your phrased it.  Nothing at all.    Just that, I know me and parroting back (to me) does not have much "feeling" in it.  In fact, to me it's incredibly "business like", especially in my business (or past business of aviation and battlegroup communications).   We did a lot of "readbacks".  I'll have to think about why I said it the way I did.  

FF

[EaglesJuju]

I would not want something like that repeated back to me, although I doubt I would have ever asked that kind of question. 

Just that, I know me and parroting back (to me) does not have much "feeling" in it.  In fact, to me it's incredibly "business like", especially in my business (or past business of aviation and battlegroup communications).   We did a lot of "readbacks".

I think a large reason why she does this is for reassurance/validation. I agree with Jessica, she was fishing for reassurance/validation.

Although you have a different perception of parroting and what it means to you, she perceives it a different way. When it comes to compliments and validation, it is easier to validate when thinking about it from her perspective. 

Have you ever looked at  her "love language?"

[formflier]

  Have you ever looked at  her "love language?"  

 Touch.    And by a long, long way.  Gift giving is her "last" love language.  Mine too.    I'm an acts of service guy.  So, how this plays out is that I give random hugs throughout the day.  If she is pissed at me, she will usually pull away.  Sometimes this is opportunity to talk.  This dynamic has been gone for a while, but worked reliably for years.  Not just talking about a quick squeeze but long drawn out hug.  I can feel her relax when it works well.  I'll have to see if I can find the list but I think the words were in the middle of her love language list.  But the scoring breakout was touch, a big gap, everything else was clustered, a big gap and then gift giving.  I was same way, acts of service, big gap, 3 more, big gap, gift giving.  

FF

[Cole]

I have a different take on the whole thing. If you are validating her when she acts like this, are you teaching her that being mad and treating you poorly is the way to get what she wants? This did start with her getting unreasonably mad at you over the aux cord.  

For quite a while I was in the same position. Mrs. Cole would get angry and demand validation and acceptance, but no matter how much I gave her or in what form, it was never right and never enough. I came to the realization it is just a way for her to exert control. (Much like the to-do list Mrs. FF gives you.)  

So, I did what I would do in a business negotiation. I pulled a Kobayashi Maru and changed the rules.  

When she acts like this, I disengaged. I do not take calls or return text. If she wants to be mad and rage, she can do it without me. Then, when she is calm and not fishing, I say or do something validating and accepting.

Mrs. Cole is a smart woman, as I am sure Mrs. FF is. She has figured out that the acceptance and validation she craves is received when she is being nice, not when she is angry or raging. And the anger and raging has drastically subsided.  

[formflier]

  Cole, I feel and have acted exactly as you described for a long time.  Honestly, I still do and if I was writing a post to me, I would have written it pretty much like you wrote it to me.  I know I need to be a better validater, I know that my wife is trying to communicate to me in a dysunctional way and is very frustrated that the message is not getting through.  It may be all about control.  And if so, then my tactic is wrong.  There is part of me that says that there is some other stuff she is trying to express here.  I know I am not responsible for her communication style, but I also don't want to assume the position that I am right and will not change or budge to accommodate the needs/wants of others.  What I'm saying is this is a bit of an experiment or attempt to change a dynamic.    For me, it's about trying to loosen up on the texting some and see if something positive comes of it.  As long as I can do this without being triggered or feeling bad about things, then I will likely continue.  But, Cole, we have similar stories and my gut says we approach life (have the same gut reactions) to many things.  So, please don't be shy on asking me to explain why I am doing what I am doing.  It could appear to her that I am loosening a boundary on her behaving badly and getting access to me.  

FF

[formflier]

  General update:  This morning I asked her to come sit with me for a while before going to work (after kids were gone).  She said she had to write the principal an email.    The "emotion" going into the banging on the keyboard was astounding.  I was room away and it seemed very loud.  Anyway, she took 10-15 minutes doing that.  I stayed on couch.  She came by and stopped on couch for about a minute.  Said she told the principal that she would finish out the year in her current position and would be looking for an upgraded teaching job next year.  Note:  She has asked for career advice and dealing with bureaucracy (since there is part of me that is a govt bureaucrat), I only gave information when asked, and, well, she pretty much did her own thing anyway.  I kept my mouth shut.  In other words, what she told me she emailed was 180 out from my advice.    So, I asked her if she would have time after school to hang out here at the house without kids and we could be together and talk, without being hurried since weekend was coming.  She suggested that we meet at a restaurant since she was usually starved then anyway.  I agreed.  While she wasn't freaked out, she was obviously uncomfortable.  I invite anyone to suggest a best approach.  It's been a long time since I've used DEARMAN, I honestly don't remember my results.  What I'm not going to do is go hangout and have light conversation like nothing has happened.  I get it she will feel "put on the spot".  So be it.  That sounded a bit uncaring, wasn't meant to be, but if you want to communicate to someone, well, there are generally accepted rules and methods to get your point across.  Sigh, Floor is open for how I should handle this.  I'm positive that I'll be able to show up and be present and not be triggered.   

FF    

[EaglesJuju]

Have you ever looked at  her "love language?"

So, how this plays out is that I give random hugs throughout the day.  If she is pissed at me, she will usually pull away.  Sometimes this is opportunity to talk.  This dynamic has been gone for a while, but worked reliably for years.

That seems really effective on different levels.    I can see how it works really well. It validates, opens up a line of communication, and you can get a "read" of how she is feeling. 

What happened to change the dynamic?

I'll have to see if I can find the list but I think the words were in the middle of her love language list.

I gathered from your threads that communication/validation is something that is important to her. I was thinking that word of affirmation would rank pretty high. 

I was same way, acts of service, big gap, 3 more, big gap, gift giving.

How is she with your love language?

[chump]

For quite a while I was in the same position. Mrs. Cole would get angry and demand validation and acceptance, but no matter how much I gave her or in what form, it was never right and never enough. I came to the realization it is just a way for her to exert control.

Hi FF,

I think Cole is on to something here.  I noticed a similar dynamic in my relationship.  It ultimately didn’t survive my attempts at setting healthy boundaries, but at the end, she described her experience of the relationship as a power struggle, and actually came right out and said that she was attempting to establish the upper hand with the silent treatment, arguments, rages, breakups, etc.

This is kind of long, but I’m putting all of it down to hopefully connect the thoughts together in a coherent point.  I know you know all this, so I’m not presuming to educate you here, more to help me clarify my own thinking.

It makes sense if your inner world is full of shame, self-hatred, fear, sadness, anger, that you would feel deeply powerless.  Constantly buffeted by waves of overwhelming emotions.  So it makes a certain kind of sense that you would attempt to control your environment, your body, those closest to you, anything to feel some kind of empowerment.  Many of the toxic behaviors of pwBPD, which can appear manipulative and abusive to the outside world, may have the genesis of a healthy instinct – that of self-empowerment and individuation, just manifested in an unhealthy, immature way.

So in a way, the classic behaviors of pwBPD, make a certain kind of childlike sense, to feel a sense of personal power.  Where this becomes crazy-making is the constant tension of opposites – what Marsha Linehan described as a “dialectic.”  The black and white thinking, just like a toddler constantly torn between wanting to feel safe and close to mom, but also needing to explore their world, to individuate and feel empowered.  A healthy child will learn to find a balance between feeling safe and loved, and feeling confident, inspired, excited by new adventures, taking calculated risks, etc.

So how might this apply to your situation FF?  If your wife asks for reassurance, essentially “tell me you love me and that I’m special,” this could be seen as an attempt to exercise some control over you, to “use” you to sooth herself and meet that fundamental need to feel safe and loved, and to feel empowered by exercising power over you.  That creates a problem.  I don’t know about you, but if someone tells me to parrot back to them exactly what they want me to say or “put words in my mouth,” I resent it, and am reluctant to just repeat their words back to them. It becomes a zero-sum exchange where they feel empowered, I feel unempowered.  Their soothing comes directly at my expense. 

So I might try to rephrase it somehow, to convey the same meaning, that I love them and they’re special to me, but in words of my choosing.  In my view of the world, it’s more “win/win.”  It allows me to empower them, but also feel empowered myself by expressing it in my own unique way.  But in the black and white world of BPD, that can seem rebellious or contrary, not “toeing the line.”  And the power struggle continues.

On the other hand, if I just surrender and say it exactly the way they want, they may momentarily feel soothed and reassured, I may be slightly annoyed, or if it’s an entrenched pattern like so many of these relationships, I might feel a lot more than annoyed, more like simmering resentment.

And of course, so many of the pwBPD in our lives are very sensitive and perceptive, and will very quickly pick up on this dynamic.  “You’re just saying that because I told you to.”  And you’re thinking “Of course I did, I’m trying to avoid a fight” or whatever, you get the idea.

So then their original goal, to feel safe and loved, gets flipped and they become preoccupied with what you’re really thinking, because they know you’re just trying to avoid a fight.  So then they want you to say it some other way, that shows your “true” feelings, and once again the same feeling returns for them, feeling unempowered and vulnerable, and the endless quest to find a sense of control continues.  Now they’re back to the fundamental dilemma of their inner world of pain, fear, anger, self-hatred, etc.  And as long as they keep using other people around them to sooth their own feelings, this dynamic persists.

Sorry for the long post, and I know you know all this, I’m writing it out partly to help organize my own thoughts.  I think the goal would be to find a simple concrete way to address this dynamic, while avoiding JADE.  I think Cole’s input is spot on, feeding into this dynamic only perpetuates it.  However, simply refusing to engage at all leaves the pwBPD feeling unempowered and abandoned all over again.

So I might try to accomplish two things at once, to address both the underlying emotion to feel reassured and the desire for empowerment.  In simple concrete words.  “I want to tell you how lucky I am to have you as my wife, and how lucky our children are to have you as their mother. I’m trying to find the words that will show that I really mean it.”  Or something like that.  I think pwBPD are constantly preoccupied with what we’re really thinking, because the threat of abandonment is always there.  So we have to both try to meet their need of reassurance, and convey sincerity at the same time.

I hope this ramble made sense.

Chump

[formflier]

  What happened to change the dynamic?  

 Nothing, that I know of.  I still do this.  Give a hug, be present for a bit and move along.  I don't try to give hugs to result in a talk or "get" other things that I want.  She likes hugs and touch, it's important to her.  Been that way for years, so I do it.    I have tried in the past, to hug and then try to get into a talk, never really worked out well.  The most successful method for getting into talks seems to be to ask that day, and then talk in a few hours.  Way less than 50% success rate though.  Also, if the stars align, and she wants to talk and I am ready, that goes pretty well.  Many times she asks incredibly complex questions that need forethought and research, if it is something I can look into in an hour or two and get back to her, that goes OK.  Let me get back to you in a couple days has a low success rate.  

I'll have to see if I can find the list but I think the words were in the middle of her love language list.

I gathered from your threads that communication/validation is something that is important to her. I was thinking that word of affirmation would rank pretty high.    Yes, I and I think anyone would think that from reading this and from some of the behaviors.  But it really wasn't.  The way we are similar is that we both had one love language that was super duper high, from a numbers point of view, it was way out from the rest of the pack.  Then there was the rest of the pack and while there was an order, there was not enough of a difference to really say that one is more important than the others.  Then, there was a HUGE gap, HUGE, and gift giving was the same for us, ranked really low.  Look, I don't hate gifts, I do appreciate them, it just doesn't "do it" for me.  Neat observation:  D18's clear #1 love language is gift giving.  Been stable there for long time.  So when I would fly off in my Navy plane, I would usually bring her something back.  Amazing to watch the impact on someone that has a gift giving love language to say "Hey, was thinking of you while I was in Key West.  Saw this in the store and figured you would like it."    Truly magical.  

I was same way, acts of service, big gap, 3 more, big gap, gift giving.

How is she with your love language? [/quote]
 Pretty good, say, 90% of the time.  But, when she is worked up and wants to "hit" with her words she will say things like "you don't deserve to have your head scratched, or feet rubbed or (fill in the blank)."  I also consider it an act of service to have the house quiet so I can sleep.  She knows this.  Crystal clarity over multiple counselors, talks, etc etc.    Likelihood that she "forgot" is about zero.  Honestly, that is likely to be one of my defining issues for the rest of my life, been that way for years.  Would be similar to a pwBPD making fun of someones legs in a wheel chair or telling them they should just try harder to walk.  Again, crystal clarity on this over multiple counselors, multiple talks.   

FF

[formflier]

  Chump, Good post, made sense to me.  Let me think on it a bit.    My initial reaction is that is why I don't like to text.  Especially why I don't like to text "quickly".   

FF

[formflier]

 All, I've got several hours until our dinner date after school.  Thoughts on what I should try to accomplish, do.  I plan on directly asking her what she is trying to communicate to me but won't get drug into the details of her actions.  

FF

[Cole]

It may be all about control.  And if so, then my tactic is wrong.  There is part of me that says that there is some other stuff she is trying to express here.  I know I am not responsible for her communication style, but I also don't want to assume the position that I am right and will not change or budge to accommodate the needs/wants of others.

I believe it is all about control. pwBPD do not feel like they are in control of themselves, so they try to control others. They manipulate just like children. So, giving an adult pwBPD what they want when they are unreasonable, angry, or raging is like telling a child she does not have to clean her room because she is stomping her feet. You just taught them how to get their way through bad behavior.

It makes sense if your inner world is full of shame, self-hatred, fear, sadness, anger, that you would feel deeply powerless.  Constantly buffeted by waves of overwhelming emotions.  So it makes a certain kind of sense that you would attempt to control your environment, your body, those closest to you, anything to feel some kind of empowerment.  Many of the toxic behaviors of pwBPD, which can appear manipulative and abusive to the outside world, may have the genesis of a healthy instinct – that of self-empowerment and individuation, just manifested in an unhealthy, immature way.

So in a way, the classic behaviors of pwBPD, make a certain kind of childlike sense, to feel a sense of personal power.  Where this becomes crazy-making is the constant tension of opposites – what Marsha Linehan described as a “dialectic.”  The black and white thinking, just like a toddler constantly torn between wanting to feel safe and close to mom, but also needing to explore their world, to individuate and feel empowered.  A healthy child will learn to find a balance between feeling safe and loved, and feeling confident, inspired, excited by new adventures, taking calculated risks, etc.

Nailed it. We need to recognize pwBPW have a developmental disability as it pertains to emotional maturity. You used the words "immature", "childlike", and "toddler". In many aspects, they are very much like small children. Where we have to learn to walk the line is in handling this childish behavior properly while still respecting the fact that they are adults.  

I think Cole’s input is spot on, feeding into this dynamic only perpetuates it.  However, simply refusing to engage at all leaves the pwBPD feeling unempowered and abandoned all over again.

 

It is not about refusing to engage and leaving them feeling abandoned. It is about engaging on OUR terms.

I stopped engaging my wife when she is mad, raging, or just being rude to me. But I now go over the top with validation and acceptance when she is treating me with respect and being nice. And it is working in our situation.

[Cole]

All,

I've got several hours until our dinner date after school.  Thoughts on what I should try to accomplish, do.

I plan on directly asking her what she is trying to communicate to me but won't get drug into the details of her actions.

FF

You said earlier she looked uneasy about meeting you at the restaurant. She is expecting something stressful, just like a kid who knows dad saw the F on her report card.

Why not just let it go- for now- and have a nice dinner date. Once she is back in a good mood, give her some unexpected validation and acceptance when she is not demanding it.   

[chump]

Why not just let it go- for now- and have a nice dinner date. Once she is back in a good mood, give her some unexpected validation and acceptance when she is not demanding it.   

I'll add a vote for this approach. Mix it up, keep it light. Try to enjoy nice meal with your woman.

Chump

[ColdEthyl]

All,

I've got several hours until our dinner date after school.  Thoughts on what I should try to accomplish, do.

I plan on directly asking her what she is trying to communicate to me but won't get drug into the details of her actions.

FF

You said earlier she looked uneasy about meeting you at the restaurant. She is expecting something stressful, just like a kid who knows dad saw the F on her report card.

Why not just let it go- for now- and have a nice dinner date. Once she is back in a good mood, give her some unexpected validation and acceptance when she is not demanding it.  

FF, I'm inclined to agree with Cole here because it's similar to me wanting to give my H that letter. Right now, it's not good timing. Whenever I say I want to talk, or if I gave him that letter, he looks at me wide eyed with fright as if what I will say next will destroy him.

[HurtinNW]

I'd like to respectfully offer a different perspective as someone who adopted three kids from foster care. My kids all have varying levels of challenging disability, from OCD to attachment struggles to FASD. I've been a very successful parent to them. My kids are all well-adjusted and have learned to regulate themselves well. I am learning to apply my techniques with my kids to my BPD/NPD boyfriend. I don't know why I never thought of it that way before, but since I have things are going much, much better... .

I'd like to offer that the need for validation doesn't change just because a disabled person is expressing it badly. We wouldn't withhold affection from an autistic child because they are having a tantrum. We'd pull them close and reassure them. Same with a disabled adult. Withholding shouldn't be a way we are trying to control and modify their behavior. I don't believe it is "giving in" to see the need for validation even if it is expressed in an immature manner. The key is to give the validation in a way that 1) is genuine 2) meets the original need and 3) helps the person learn to regulate.

My guess is your wife really wanted reassurance she is a good wife. She was feeling shame because someplace inside her she knew she was getting upset over something small: her anxiety was ramping up, she was feeling out of control, and she began to flail around looking for someone to blame. You. The underlying need was reassurance. My opinion is a validation of that need in the language she likes is appropriate and then, this is key, you redirect her.

One technique I learned with my kids is to offer a new validation and then follow with redirection. This is a good way to stop the escalation. It would work like this: 1) you answer her text question with a reassurance, "hell yes, you are the best mother!" 2) you follow the validation with an unprompted validation, such as another text with someone genuine about her that she is not asking for but likes. Maybe, "thinking of how good you looked this morning in those pants, mmmm" Whatever works! Then 3) you distract by redirecting her. Such as "Hey,when you have time, tell me what you need from the store." Again, whatever redirection works.

Every time you stop the cycle from escalating you create a new behavior path that is much healthier. You meet the deeper need and you are an emotional leader for better behavior. You are modeling for her that a regulated person distracts themselves. It is a win-win.

I agree with the others the dinner should be amnesty. Have a good time, let her know she is loved. I don't think you should ask her what she is trying to communicate. She doesn't know, besides trying to communicate her own restless need for reduction of shame and anxiety. By putting her on the spot you will cause more anxiety and that won't be helpful. My two cents.

[formflier]

I may have given wrong impression.  She was uncomfortable with idea of being at home alone with me, no kids with nothing to rush off to.  Just for the purpose of communicating.  Meeting at restaurant was her idea, she seemed much more relaxed with that.  I will be light and non confrontational, but we have issues that need solutions, not blame.    Here is the part that you guys should know about where my head is.    I will not tell her this or act on it for a while.    This relationship and my family is not worth the cost to my health if ridiculous behavior returns as a regular feature.  If we get back to some sort of stability I am OK.  I need help from you guys to define ridiculous.  She can yell and scream about aux cords all she wants.  I am solid on being OK.  Sleep deprivation and threatening police action to get her way is ridiculous, blocking doorways so I am trapped is in that category as well.  I am not going to put tons of thought into exactly what I will do unless it happens again.    Thoughts on where my head is?  

FF  

[ColdEthyl]

FF, I have no words to help with your situation, but I am in the same boat. I can deal with most of the behaviors, but I can't deal with things being thrown and destroyed.

My husband has pulled sleep deprivation on me. He will sneer and say "Go ahead and try to sleep tonight." This last dysregulation, he was telling me he can't wait until I go to work because he will destroy everything in the house when I'm gone. He will go outside and slash the tires so I have take the bus to work.

That's the stuff that's over the line. Fortunately, this stuff only happens when he has a HUGE dysregulation. Usually during the winter, and usually once a year.

[formflier]

   

    My opinion is a validation of that need in the language she likes is appropriate and then, this is key, you redirect her.   One technique I learned with my kids is to offer a new validation and then follow with redirection. This is a good way to stop the escalation. It would work like this: 1) you answer her text question with a reassurance, "hell yes, you are the best mother!" 2) you follow the validation with an unprompted validation, such as another text with someone genuine about her that she is not asking for but likes. Maybe, "thinking of how good you looked this morning in those pants, mmmm" Whatever works! Then 3) you distract by redirecting her. Such as "Hey, when you have time, tell me what you need from the store." Again, whatever redirection works.    

  HurtinNW, Welcome to the conversation.  Looking forward to getting to know you better.  I had exactly the same thought process that you laid out.  Validate and redirect.  That is what I did via text.  What I missed is that what she was griping about, apparently, was not what she was upset about.    

FF wife: Found aux cord, someone had and plugged in and thrown it in the floor 7:43 AM  

FF wife: Unplugged it and thrown it in the floor 7:44 AM  Me: that's frustrating! 7:44 AM  my attempt to validate and connect via text  Me: I hope presenting those backpacks to the school kids goes well today. They are lucky to have you for a teacher. 7:45 AM   (my attempt to redirect and get something going in a positive more healthy way)  

FF wife: Thanks and I hope our children are lucky to have me as a mother and you are lucky to have me as a wife 7:46 AM  Me: We are the luckiest family there is, 7:48 AM  (my attempt to over validate, over agree, "luckiest, there is nobody luckier, it can't be topped.   Anyway, welcome to the discussion.  

FF