What is their "endgame"?

[Schermarhorn]

From my understanding, when a pwBPD enters a relationship they fully expect them to be "the one" and everything is going to work out.

But what about after you have broken up and been painted black? What are going through their minds when they recycle? Are they expecting it to fail? When they think of an ex and attempt to recycle, what are they hoping for?

And do they realize that they are in a repeating cycles when it comes to relationships? I know they offload the blame, but deep down do they know that they aren't going to find that saviour?

[Doughnut]

I'm not an expert on this disorder as it's all new to me, and I am only surmising that my ex-friend has this as he has been exhibiting a lot of traits of it. However... .

I wonder this too. I wonder if the reason they come back is because they need something to fill the emotional void. So if things aren't working out, they need to latch onto something that they previously had? Don't they require emotional fulfilment and expect you to grovel without even considering your emotions and feelings?

My ex friend hasn't recycled me yet as such but we did have a point where he declared he had no feelings for me and wanted me out his life for good. Number deleted, etc. A few days later, he's suddenly desperate to talk to me as he was feeling suicidal, I helped him through it and suddenly I am 'amazing' again.

I don't know if this is applicable to all cases but I wonder if the only reason they return is because they've hit dire straits and they need someone there.

I could be wrong as I'm still trying to understand how this disorder works.

[Suzn]

From my understanding, when a pwBPD enters a relationship they fully expect them to be "the one" and everything is going to work out.

This isn't a trait exclusive to BPD, many nons have these expectations too.  

What are going through their minds when they recycle? Are they expecting it to fail? When they think of an ex and attempt to recycle, what are they hoping for?

It's impossible to know exactly what everyone's ex is thinking, not everyone with BPD is the same just as nons are not the same. Emotional immaturity is a common trait with pwBPD, as well as some nons, and reasons could be any combination of the following... .

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

[hashtag_loyal]

And do they realize that they are in a repeating cycles when it comes to relationships? I know they offload the blame, but deep down do they know that they aren't going to find that saviour?

Deep down they know it is going to fail. They grew up in an environment of failure and invalidation, and so that is what they come to expect, and believe they deserve. There is an element to self-harm and self-defeat in everything they do, as they are more likely to choose the comfort and familiarity of anguish over the frightening anxiety of tranquility and happiness almost every time.

So what exactly is their "endgame"? Short answer is they don't really have one. They are just desperate people looking for some companionship to distract from the emptyness.

[Herodias]

I think they do start out every relationship thinking it's perfect... .the minute they start to see a crack, there are problems. I read that psychopaths are sort of the opposite of the military. They build you up to break you down (whereas the military breaks you down to build you up). I felt like mine was playing a game for sure... .I think he wants to go from one relationship to another just to keep it always in that honey- moon phase... .He doesn't want to be responsible or have to follow rules or be an adult. Mine studies control and manipulation... .he had been a Marine (did not go to war). They say most pwBPD just want to be loved... .not all of them from what I can see. The ones that are co-morbid with other personality disorders may have other motives. They want someone to love them unconditionally and by that I mean... .put up with anything they do and not say a word about it! Then when they find someone they want to be with more... .you are supposed to leave and not be mad at them! Even come back if they realize they made a mistake. It is a game... .we are the losers unless we detach and are done. Then we win... .sorry if I am a bit harsh, but in my case, mine has been just a horrible person to deal with.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey nonya-

Think attachments with borderlines.  A borderline must form an attachment to feel whole, to complete themselves, and once it's formed they fear losing it, abandonment, and losing themselves in it, engulfment, two opposing, ever-present fears that are the cause of the push/pull behavior.

But what about after you have broken up and been painted black? What are going through their minds when they recycle? Are they expecting it to fail? When they think of an ex and attempt to recycle, what are they hoping for?

Push/pull again: be apart from someone, feel abandoned, not a good feeling, reach out to that attachment to soothe that emotion, get close again, get too close again, push away again.  And a borderline is always expecting it to fail, always fearing abandonment, except at the very beginning when the new attachment is perfect.  And once a relationship is recycled the fear of abandonment is stronger, since that attachment already abandoned them once, the attachment is weaker, the fear is greater.

I know they offload the blame, but deep down do they know that they aren't going to find that saviour?

There's always another attachment, always a way to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person, the one they never successfully detached from, the genesis of the disorder.

[Ab123]

Deep down they know it is going to fail. They grew up in an environment of failure and invalidation, and so that is what they come to expect, and believe they deserve. There is an element to self-harm and self-defeat in everything they do, as they are more likely to choose the comfort and familiarity of anguish over the frightening anxiety of tranquility and happiness almost every time.

This hit home. I think this describes my ex's outlook. It is so hard to watch, even as he is doing things that hurt me. As he was doing things that made it difficult to continue to be with him, it was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. He has a somewhat incoherent warrior/martyr metaphor that he applies to himself to reconcile some of the cognitive dissonance, to justify the self sabotage as some kind of noble sacrifice.

[Inside]

They’ve an uncanny ability to ignore previous trauma.  Mine could ‘start anew’ after a deep dig, or recycle after a ‘shove off’ without addressing or even raising previous issues.  I suspect they’ve been instantly forgiven from an early age by family to the point they assume unconditional love is a given... .   

To me (likely all over the place around here... ), ‘love’ is like a drug to them ... .and how many addicts deny further use because of the eventual withdrawal... ?  pwBPD must figure the temporary r/s is worth even the worst of downsides. 

I think, deep down, they know there will always be a fall, a breakup, the morning after.  But like a drug addict, they’re self-medicating a deeper disorder … one they surely learn they can’t kick or cure.

We are their drug ... .until ‘our high’ is less potent than ‘a new drug.’  We become their used needles … where they’ll reuse us if incapable of finding another...   Tragic, for all involved :'(

[apollotech]

FHTH:

... .to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person... .

That's ^^^^ the endgame. Unfortunately the disorder itself bars it from ever being fulfilled, and therefore, actually ending. As a result the search ceaselessly continues, looking for that perfect bonding candidate.

[Herodias]

It surprises me that they would even want to get a divorce from someone if the fear of abandonment is so strong... .Unless of course they know you aren't staying so they need to commit to someone that might?

[apollotech]

It surprises me that they would even want to get a divorce from someone if the fear of abandonment is so strong... .Unless of course they know you aren't staying so they need to commit to someone that might?

BH,

They are looking for that "perfect" (key word) someone to bond with, not just someone. Infatuation (idealization) will often end when that state of perfection cannot be met. Those are the pwBPD discards you read about, IMO often mistakenly referred to as fear of abandonment discards by Non's. In other words, a pwBPD can reject a Non before the Non is even aware that it has occured. That's the cooling off period before the actual discard by the pwBPD. There are many examples of this on the boards.

[Crazytoo]

FHTH:

... .to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person... .

That's ^^^^ the endgame. Unfortunately the disorder itself bars it from ever being fulfilled, and therefore, actually ending. As a result the search ceaselessly continues, looking for that perfect bonding candidate.

I think my ex(?) and me were and still are bulding a strong bond. We had a non-sexual spiritual moment in each others arms where it felt we became one, emotionally (hard to describe). Since that moment everything became even more intense (and complicated). While on a small scale we sometimes take turns in nurturing the other, overall in this constellation (long before the r/s, when we just became friends) I started out as fatherly/motherly caretaker. I hope the incredible amount of trust we built only recently and this bond last and bring us together once more and forever more. She knows I love her unconditionally, while telling and showing her what I don't agree with

[Driver]

FHTH:

... .to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person... .

That's ^^^^ the endgame. Unfortunately the disorder itself bars it from ever being fulfilled, and therefore, actually ending. As a result the search ceaselessly continues, looking for that perfect bonding candidate.

Tough question, does that perfect bond candidate exist?

If yes, then would it be possible that the relationship becomes perfect without any triggers?

If no, then I think we come here to this board to try to understand what the hell happened to us... .

[Fr4nz]

FHTH:

... .to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person... .

That's ^^^^ the endgame. Unfortunately the disorder itself bars it from ever being fulfilled, and therefore, actually ending. As a result the search ceaselessly continues, looking for that perfect bonding candidate.

This is really mind-boggling... .and so true! Indeed, few months after the start of our relationship my ex often told me that I was VERY similar - almost equivalent - to her mother (bad aspects included, obviously).

And just to complete the picture on the matter: in one of her past posts, 2010 wrote that BPD's partners end up to be seen by the BPDs as "THE" hypercritical parent - usually this coincides with the BPD's mother -

and in turn this is the origin of the so called "fear of engulfment".

Quite often, yet not always, BPDs have a hate/love relationship with their mother (or primary caregiver), which is a consequence of this "broken" detachment.

Indeed, current theories state that during the pre-oedipal stage (0-3 years) BPDs fail to have successfull experiences related to the "exploration" of the world - which is functional in detaching from the mother's self - due to a combination of (1) natural predisposition and (2) how "mother" managed their relationship with their baby, thus denying the baby to detach properly from the mother's self.

Usually this failed detachment is not solved at a later stage - on the countrary it is reinforced as the time passes, since often BPDs come from dysfunctional families - and this induces all the problems we know so well.

[FannyB]

I think this all happens on a subconscious level with borderlines as I can't imagine my ex seeing any of her mother in me given the way she talked about us - at least initially.

On a conscious level their 'end game' is simply to feel better and secure their emotional survival. By seeing us at the perfect being who will make all their horrible emotions wash away in a tsunami of love they are effectively using us to soothe themselves. When our imperfections become apparent, they split us, then devalue then discard. They feel bereft and disappointed and look for another soothing object to quell their tempestuous emotions. 

It's like a never-ending search for the Holy Grail for them - and a positive alternative to admitting their issues and seeking professional help.

Fanny

[Learning Fast]

It's like a never-ending search for the Holy Grail for them

The one thing that they want the most in life---a close, intimate, meaningful and fulfilling relationship with a partner---is the one thing that the disorder will not permit them to have.  So the "end game" of searching for the Holy Grail continues... .

LF

[MapleBob]

It surprises me that they would even want to get a divorce from someone if the fear of abandonment is so strong... .Unless of course they know you aren't staying so they need to commit to someone that might?

You've got to imagine that because their endgame of complete merger and 100% unconditional love with a "substitute parent" is actually impossible to reach, being in a committed intense relationship throws that in their face every day. It must be like the proverbial carrot on a stick that can never be reached. So living with that pain can be pretty difficult for them.

[fromheeltoheal]

FHTH:

... .to recreate that bond with their mother where they were one person... .

That's ^^^^ the endgame. Unfortunately the disorder itself bars it from ever being fulfilled, and therefore, actually ending. As a result the search ceaselessly continues, looking for that perfect bonding candidate.

And just to complete the picture on the matter: in one of her past posts, 2010 wrote that BPD's partners end up to be seen by the BPDs as "THE" hypercritical parent - usually this coincides with the BPD's mother -

and in turn this is the origin of the so called "fear of engulfment".

Quite often, yet not always, BPDs have a hate/love relationship with their mother (or primary caregiver), which is a consequence of this "broken" detachment.

And consider this Fr4nz:

Before we're born and slightly thereafter we don't distinguish between ourselves and our mother, to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her.  But eventually, as we explore our bodies, our limbs, our mother, it becomes clear that we are two separate entities, there's a "me" and a "her".  And sometimes "her" leaves for a while.  Is she ever coming back?  We don't know, have no way of knowing, we fear we'll be abandoned and then what?  It's like part of us has been taken away.  We get depressed, the 'abandonment depression' it's called, something most folks go through just fine, in fact a necessary step in becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, gets stuck without transcending that abandonment depression, so perpetually tries to recreate that earliest bond, that attachment, while fearing that abandonment.  Another possibility is the mother never goes away, keeps the kid always close, doesn't give the baby the chance to weather that abandonment depression, for her own reasons.

And then, not having transcended the abandonment depression on the way to becoming and autonomous individual, a borderline doesn't form a 'self' of their own, and can feel like they literally don't exist without and attachment, a psychic fusing to create one 'person' out of two.  So once an attachment is formed, an attempt to recreate that earliest bond, what if that attachment leaves?  Fear of abandonment.  And what if I get too close to this person so I entirely disappear in them?  Fear of engulfment.  And those two opposing fears are the motivation behind the push/pull behavior.

So think about how much that would suck.  You don't know who you are, there is no consistent "self", and therefore no grounding with which to soothe emotions, you MUST attach to someone to survive, but once you do you have the continual battle of trying to straddle the fence between abandonment and engulfment.  There is no peace and contentment there, or even possible, so what to do?  We've all experienced how borderlines deal with it.

[apollotech]

Learning Fast:

The one thing that they want the most in life---a close, intimate, meaningful and fulfilling relationship with a partner---is the one thing that the disorder will not permit them to have.

That ^^^^ is the punishing paradox of the disorder for the person afflicted with BPD. BPD exacts its own punishment, it is built in.

[apollotech]

Hi Driver,

Tough question, does that perfect bond candidate exist?

No, no one can substitute in order to replicate that first parental (caregiver) bond, certainly not at 100%. I do believe that some people with BPD handle this issue better than others. Some people with BPD do indeed bond with another person long-term. There are many examples of these relationships on the Staying Board.

If yes, then would it be possible that the relationship becomes perfect without any triggers?

I am speculating here, but I'd say no, because the underlying BPD is still present in the pwBPD; although, it may become primarily asymptomatic. If they did become "whole" through a perfect bond, would their engulfment and abandonment issues be fully abated? I think not because BPD is a developmental disorder; therefore, they cannot be regressed back in time to correct the initial parental (caregiver) bonding issue, which went terribly wrong for the pwBPD.

[vortex of confusion]

It surprises me that they would even want to get a divorce from someone if the fear of abandonment is so strong... .Unless of course they know you aren't staying so they need to commit to someone that might?

So many thoughts about this thread! I wanted to comment on this in particular. My stbx does not want a divorce. He does not want a separation. He does not want to move out. At the same time, he doesn't want to do the work involved in maintaining a relationship.

Me wanting him to go to counseling to address his issues was too much to ask. I was demanding and asking too much of him. We went to ONE counseling session together. The counselor told him to grow up and told me to stop mothering him. For years, it was the perfect set up because I would mother him and take care of him and he acted like a petulant child. He doesn't want a wife. He wants a mother.

I also wanted to address the question in the thread title. I have to wonder why it is important to know their end game. My assumption is that people get into relationships for companionship, sharing, and the typical stuff of looking for somebody to share their life with in the long run. I don't feel like my stbx had any kind of bad motives when we got together all of those years ago. I also don't think he has bad motives in looking for another woman. I don't think he deliberately sets out to do stupid stuff.

He tells me repeatedly, "I just need a friend." Watching him flail is kind of sad. He had talked to all sorts of women and it seems that a high number of them either ghost him or have one meeting and disappear. He will never realize that relationships require work, work on the self and work on the relationship. He will never find a partner because in order to have a good partner, you need to be a good partner. Any kind of requests/demands/growth will be seen as negative and will trigger them.

When we were younger, I feel like I was the perfect candidate for him because I was content to mother him. As we got older and had kids and got all of the stuff that comes with being an adult, I was no longer the perfect candidate because I could no longer mother him and give him the kind of attention that he wanted/needed. He was and is stuck being a man child. That might work in a newly budding relationship but it doesn't work long term when responsibilities, etc. are involved.

[Herodias]

vortex your husband sounds allot like mine- wanting to be mothered. I was able to do that because I'm older than him and we didn't end up having kids... I feel strongly that when his gf has this baby, he will feel left out and that will cause the demise of that relationship. Mine wants a divorce though. Either to marry her to " do the right thing" and/or to get his responsibility of my Health  insurance off his back as well.

[Herodias]

The other thing about finding the perfect partner- mine thought this gf was a better match but I'm wondering if he is starting to see that's not true. He told me this morning that he hates to hear my voice because it reminds him of how much he misses me. That he knows we will always love each other! Then he started to cry- then I did! He apologized for making me cry, but I've been sad the rest of the day. I hate how he can affect me so much.