She's going down a dark path URGENT

[HalfRemembered]

Some of what I'm going to talk about is sexually graphic.

I'm new here, I've only read a few posts in the past month, but I'm 100% convinced my ex (maybe ex?) has BPD. Drugs, alcohol, depression, erratic changes in mood, risky sexual behavior, self-injury, suicide attempt, acute psychotic breaks... .

I need help fast. She's "ghosted" me for the most part, only responding when I tell her I'll respectfully leave her alone and not contact her anymore. We talk for a bit, she knows she has problems and says she needs help, then she ghosts me again.

On Saturday she will be meeting with a guy who she previously got together with a year ago before I met her when she went into some kind of depressive state. She didn't care about her well-being and was either punishing her ex or herself or both. This guy runs "back alley" gangbangs and preys on young women with addiction/mental problems (no time to get into him, but he's a complete psychopath, believe me). Before he got her into one, she came to her senses and got away from him. She even said he scared her.

Now, she's running right towards him, I believe (I know) to be involved in a gangbang. Recently, her drug and alcohol problem has gone through the roof after her ex came back for the holidays. I think I was just used as a tool to make her ex jealous. She always seems to go back to him--and is now planning on moving across the country to live with him. Regardless, I care for her and she is about to go down a really dark path, which may end up compounding her already out-of-control drug/alcohol problem as well as exacerbate her unwell mental state. She knows she has a problem, both mentally and with drugs, but when I try to be supportive (even when she's asking me too) she disappears.

It's my belief she's trying to recreate the egregious sexual trauma she went through as a child; one that is probably the basis for all her problems now.

I have to stop her from going to see this guy on Saturday. What can I possibly do to convince her? I'm open to ANY suggestions... .and have only one EXTREME option I can think of.

I have to preface it, but here's my last resort, as awful as I think it is... .

We had a bizarre relationship, a Master/Slave sexual relationship. I went along with it for her, not knowing any better (big red flag). She gave me access to her email, facebook, contacts, google account, even EVERYTHING on her phone. I have a lot of "dirt" on her.

Her boyfriend, which she loves (in her own strange way) never condoned her sexual fetishes. He doesn't even know THE HALF of what she's into. He thought "spanking" was bizarre and unhealthy. It would absolutely repulse him to know what she has done and what she is about to do. Right now, he's waiting on the other side of the country thinking she's together with him and she's being faithful.

Should I blackmail her?... .She either doesn't go see this guy on Saturday and goes and seeks help (which she knows she needs) or I send all the information about her sexual behavior to her ex.

That's ALL I can think of. It's HORRIBLE, I know, but what else am I left with? What kind of repercussions will an ultimatum like that have on somebody like her? Which she stop? Will she seek help possibly? OR... .will that drive her to that psychopath even more?

She's almost on the brink of overdosing and this might send her further down the spiral.

I have to try and get some sleep now. I'll respond to any replies when I can. Thank you so much to anybody that can shed some light on this problem!

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[babyducks]

Hi HalfRemembered,

I am really glad you made the brave decision to reach out for help and second opinions.   That says a lot about you.

What you describe sounds very difficult.   It has to be hard for you to watch what your girl friend is living right now.   I know from my own experience that living in close proximity to mental illness has a way of putting pressure on my reality.

I think many of us here will relate to what you wrote.   A person we care about, care about desperately, going down a destructive and damaging road.   Us feeling the overwhelming need to rescue, to try to save them from their own choices, their own behavior.   And being caught in Catch 22 situations while doing it.

I know for me that living with a person who has a serious mental illness is much more like a marathon than a sprint.   My partner is Bipolar and BPD.    I know that there will always be some type of problem, something to deal with.   If I keep launching myself to solve the problem of the day I am going to burn myself out and really not do her any favors, because she will eventually come to resent me for it.   That's my situation.

I am going to encourage you to stop and take a couple of deep breaths.   Try and take a couple of steps back from this and look at it as if it was happening to your best friend or a guy you know at work.   What advice would you give them?

I have to stop her from going to see this guy on Saturday. What can I possibly do to convince her? I'm open to ANY suggestions... .and have only one EXTREME option I can think of.

The truth is that no one can control what some one else does.   You can offer her choices, and options but you can't really stop someone from making a decision to go in one direction or another.    I would not recommend you take the extreme option you described because in the long run I can't see it increasing the rapport and trust between you and your girlfriend.   You clearly care about this woman and want the best for her.   Taking an action that would betray her confidences, humiliate her, destroy any relationship between you and her seems incredibly counterproductive.

Instead of the stick I would offer the carrot.  If you don't want her to go on Saturday I would suggest you make a counter offer.   Something she really likes to do.  Say 'Hey on Saturday I will be at XYZ place with a bottle of wine and I would be really happy if you would join me instead of doing what you are thinking of doing, no pressure, no strings.'

What do you think?

'ducks

[HalfRemembered]

Thank you so much for your reply!

I didn't think I could force her into doing or not doing anything. That's what makes me feel so helpless. I do realize that could make the situation worse and push her further down the spiral.

I actually did what you suggested and offered her an invite over to my place the other day. I tried to be as affable as possible. I politely asked her yesterday if she had an answer for me. She was snappy, as she has been with me lately, but she didn't say she was not going to come.

Basically, her (and our) future is riding on that invite. She can either go left or right on Saturday. I can only hope she is in a better head space on Saturday and comes to my place. If she goes down that other path, I don't think I can even be in contact with her anymore. I've been really supportive, but I just can't bear the torment of watching her destroy herself anymore. And it seems like the nicer and more supportive I am, the more she throws it back in my face and pushes me away. She hates herself, and I think the idea of me genuinely caring about her, and loving the person she actually is deep down inside, makes her loathe me.

I guess time will tell in these next few days.

Much thanks again for the response. It really does help!

[babyducks]

Hi HalfRemembered,

I can relate to what you wrote.   It's hard to understand what drives a person to make decisions that are clearly bad for them.   There are complicated psychological forces at play.   Even the professionals struggle with unravel what's really going on.   How much more so us, when our emotions can keep us heavily invested.

I have a couple of thoughts that may be of use.   Boundaries.   We talk a lot around here about Boundaries and how to correctly and positively reinforce them.   When I was very first here a senior member said to me "don't do anything that would bring more drama to a relationship already fraught with too much drama".   It was great advice well spoken.   I noticed you said that if she goes down this other path you don't think you can be in contact any longer.   That's a boundary.   Boundaries should be linked to our values and be something we can defend and enforce.   The tricky thing about boundaries is holding them.   A great deal more information in this link

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

For me, it's usually pretty easy to identify what I should be doing,   how I should be doing it, is a little trickier.   That's why I come here.   Over time I have found that reading and posting here have helped me.

Have you done much reading about BPD?   There is a component of shame in BPD, a feeling of not being worthy.  Coupled with the harmfully intense emotions and poor impulse control people with this disorder usually have a history of chronic instability.   I find it helpful to remember that I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it.   It is sad to watch.  I have found the tools and skills here have kept me from being consumed by my relationship.

will you let us know how things turn out for you as Saturday comes and goes?   

'ducks

[HalfRemembered]

Hi babyducks,

I've done a bit of reading up on BPD, more so than the average person, mostly online. I started reading "Lost In The Mirror" somewhat recently, but am only a few chapters in. I'm well read on all the other cluster B personality types. I grew up in an abusive home and am certain my mother is a malignant narcissist. Throughout my life, I've had the tendency to attract people like this. I'm a magnet for them. However, not usually pwBPD. I think maybe there was a girlfriend from college who possibly had BPD, but it was a long-distance relationship and we rarely saw each other.

pwBPD, at least from my own observations, seem to be both the "predator" and the "prey". Based on what I know of my girlfriend, she has either been the manipulator or the manipulated--or sometimes even both--in relationships throughout her life. Having had access to her Google account, I was able to see her search history for the last 6-7 years, and that is almost tantamount to seeing into someone's mind. She definitely has psychopathic-like tendencies and she's aware of them, but they're derived from the abuse she suffered at a young age. She even referred to it as "the darkness" to me, but was never willing to fully open up to me. That's really when things fell apart, when she got too close to me and she thought I was starting to see the "true" her. I went from being the "hero" to the "villain" in the blink of an eye. Now, as a result, she's running towards someone she knows is a villain. This guy really is dangerous. It's not just some random encounter with him for one weekend. That will be the beginning of the "dark path" I was talking about. He's a very manipulative psychopath and I've discovered some awful things about him and his past.

It's hard for me to set a boundary in this particular situation. I'm not fully sure she knows that I know she is planning on seeing him. She knows I have access to her phone remotely (it was her idea), but I'm now wondering if she knows the extent of what I'm able to see. And she didn't tell me she wanted me to stop. If I tell her what I know, it will most likely make her feel betrayed, which will make matters worse.

I made some headway with her last night. She said she was going to come over to m place on Saturday... .for now.  For a month I was trying to reconnect with her in-person, but she was unresponsive to my attempts. Yesterday, I realized I was going about it the wrong way; I was saying things like: "if you'd like to come over" or "do you want to come over?". This time I said, "I want you to come over on Saturday." I made a statement rather than giving her an option with a question.

It would make sense that she was responsive to this. She wanted a relationship that was based on dominance (where she was the submissive). She wanted me to make every single decision for her, big or small. This is not at all surprising to me now based on what I've read on BPD so far.

Things get much more bizarre in that master/slave relationship. It's obviously more than just a role-play fantasy for her. She actually wanted me to not only make decisions for her, but keep her away from some of the bad decisions and influences in her life. She also liked to be "punished" when she slipped up. Things got even darker. She wanted me to "break" her by means of torture. It never did get to that stage, but I believe she was hoping to "reset" her personality and rid herself of "the darkness" by being broken down mentally through physical torture. Almost as if one new extreme abuse could override the one from her childhood and set things right, done by somebody who cared about her and had good intentions towards her. Something she could have control over... .while simultaneously being helpless.

Sorry for the long post. I will definitely give updates on the situation in case anyone else comes across this post in the future who is dealing with a similar situation.

EDIT: And thank you for the resource! I found another one yesterday on the site called "Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle". That's what gave me the idea of being more assertive in my attempt to invite her over to my place on Saturday.

[livednlearned]

It's hard for me to set a boundary in this particular situation.

Hi HalfRemembered,

She is lucky you care for her and want her to be safe. I agree with babyducks that even though the situation could end badly for your friend, it's not realistic to think you can control what she does. If you are successful one time, there will be plenty others, so pacing yourself is important. Parents of BPD teens and young adults, even older adult children, are intimately aware of this balancing act.

That isn't to say you can't offer positive alternatives. My guess is that she responded to your statement more than questions because she was in the right frame of mind to respond to a statement. There may just as easily be times when she feels engulfed or controlled and a declarative statement might trigger a lot of anxiety about whether she can rise to expectations. Even when the expectation may seem minor to us. 

I find it most helpful to phrase things in a very structured way: "Want to get together Saturday? If so, let me know by 3pm. Otherwise I'll figure you have other plans."

This allows you to give her some structure while simultaneously allowing you to set a boundary about when you're prepared to move forward, including what you'll do with a non response if that happens.

It would make sense that she was responsive to this. She wanted a relationship that was based on dominance (where she was the submissive). She wanted me to make every single decision for her, big or small. This is not at all surprising to me now based on what I've read on BPD so far.

Maybe. I'm guessing that she likes that part of the time, and then at times doesn't like it at all, around the time when she disappears. It's hard to know when/if these moments will occur. This might work given the situation she is in at the moment, it's a tough way to maintain a relationship that is susceptible to emotional lability.

Things get much more bizarre in that master/slave relationship. It's obviously more than just a role-play fantasy for her. She actually wanted me to not only make decisions for her, but keep her away from some of the bad decisions and influences in her life. She also liked to be "punished" when she slipped up. Things got even darker. She wanted me to "break" her by means of torture. It never did get to that stage, but I believe she was hoping to "reset" her personality and rid herself of "the darkness" by being broken down mentally through physical torture. Almost as if one new extreme abuse could override the one from her childhood and set things right, done by somebody who cared about her and had good intentions towards her. Something she could have control over... .while simultaneously being helpless.

Being tortured or enslaved probably felt familiar. It can be profoundly painful to allow yourself to feel that you are worthy, loved, and lovable. My guess is that your friend is more afraid of feeling vulnerable than having a desire to be broken down by torture. She may want to feel that she's "strong" enough to endure the abuse, and try to gain some sense of (misplaced) resilience. This is not specific to people with BPD.

[cosmonaut]

I'm really sorry to hear about all that you are going through, HR.  Relationships with pwBPD can be extremely painful sometimes.  Even traumatic.  These relationships are very hard. All of us here can understand this, so please know you're not alone.  

HR, I think what we really need to look at here is controlling behavior.  That's what immediately jumps out at me reading your posts, and it's something that I notice because  I think you may be stuck in a trap that I once was myself.  You see that your ex is headed down a dark path and you want to rescue her; you want to fix her.  I don't doubt your sincerity in that regard.  You want to save her from pain and I think anyone would want to help someone they love.  But this need to fix others is itself a very dark path and one that will only end in tears.  Learning that has been one of the hardest, most painful lessons of my life.

One of the most difficult things I've had to learn in life is that love isn't fixing.  That is a concept that goes against my very instincts.  I thought that I had the best of intentions in wanting to rescue my ex from herself.  I thought that was genuine love - riding in to save the day.  In a way, I even thought that was part of being a man - watching over and protecting the woman I love.  Even from herself.  And did I ever try to save her.  My attempts to fix things resulted in so many fights that last year, and it was something that baffled me at the time.  I felt so incredibly hurt, confused and frustrated that my best of intentions were routinely met with anger, resentment, or worst of all the agonizing silences.  I was only trying to help and the more I did the further away she pulled and the greater the gulf of silences became.  No matter how gentle I tried to be, she only withdrew further.  Eventually she left, and I was completely shattered.  I couldn't comprehend how someone I had showered with love could get so far away.  How did we ever end up there?

It turns out that my idea of love was just plain wrong.  Love isn't fixing.  When we try to fix someone we love we are saying "I'm better than you.  You're a screw up and I know how to run your life better than you do.  You need to do what I say because you're incapable of fixing your own life."   Fixing is controlling.  It's dominating.  It's shaming.  It's demeaning.  It is not love.  Love is accepting.  Love is nurturing.  Love is supportive.  Love builds us up.  When I first realized that, it was a genuine revelation to me.  It changed everything about how I saw my relationship with my ex.  And it was hard to see.  No longer was I the white knight hero, but rather the critical parent.  I had become the physical manifestation of the voice that already existed in my ex's head on continual loop telling her how worthless she is, how broken she is, how bad she is.   I never intended that to happen, but that's exactly what I did.  I can't imagine how crushing that must have been for her to have someone she loved so deeply reinforcing how awful and worthless she is.  It suddenly made sense of why she was so hurt and angry when I would try to fix her.  It made sense why she pulled further and further away.   Ultimately, I had to accept that she made the best decision for herself in choosing to leave.  She was saving herself from my continually demeaning her.  And I didn't even know it.

We can't fix anyone, especially not the people we love.  The only person we can fix is ourselves.  And that's how it should have been with me all along.  My ex has many, many problems, but they were problems that I knew about when I began a relationship with her.  They were problems she had been incredibly honest with me about.   And I chose to be with her.   I don't regret that decision, but I do regret how I behaved.  I wish so much that I could change things knowing what I do now.  Love is nurturing.  Love supports someone to help themselves.  It allows them to find their own way in life.  Love sees the very best in someone and celebrates them for it.  Love doesn't tear us down, but builds us up.  These are the things I wish I had known earlier, and what I work on myself to always remember now.

Maybe this will resonate with you.  I think it may, because reading between the lines of your story I see so many familiar signs.  I hope it can help.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a few thoughts on the BDSM and master/slave aspect of this relationship.

First, I hope you have other resources or experience with this... .because a person with BPD isn't going to do this kind of thing in a healthy way if left to drive the situation.

Second, you might try to get her to show up at your place on Saturday using the role of master and commanding her. I don't have anything specific to offer you in this, and suspect you would do better looking for other communities to support you in working out this option.

And finally... .it sounds like she might want the gang bang experience. Doing it with the guy you describe sounds like a really bad idea. Perhaps if she was able to get it in a much safer way she would make better choices? Let me refer to a caller on Dan Savages podcast asking about this and getting some answers:

www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/475#.VrP-kUU8LCQ

I think there was another caller or two with some further thoughts on a later episode.



I'd also add that seeing her get badly hurt will be tough for you if she does go through with it... .but think about whether you can support her as a friend if she does... .quite likely she will need support even more.

[HalfRemembered]

Hello everyone,

It means so much to me that you would take the time to respond in such great detail. Lately, I've been trying to catch up on things in life that I put aside while dealing with this and haven't had time to respond in-length. I have read every one of your posts and am taking them to heart. I will have to respond in greater detail at another time in the next few days.

A quick update:

She seemed to be swaying between coming to see me and going to see that other guy. Now, it looks as if she's going to be seeing him on Saturday. Things might change in the end though... .who knows.

I almost feel as though I'm mourning the lose of someone who has died recently. That's the best way I can describe it; it may be the way I have to look at it too in the future.

[Grey Kitty]

No matter what she does--makes healthy choices, makes hurtful choices, yanks you in, or walks out of your life forever... .

... .you still will have the emotional roller coaster she took you through for yourself. We're here to support you, no matter which path. None of them are easy. 

Please keep posting on both what happens with her and how you are feeling about it. It really does help.