Causes of BPD - Sexual Abuse

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have moved past the point of having any desire to have any sort of contact with my ex but I do want to better understand personality disorders.  Borderline personality disorder doesn't just come out of nowhere; there have to be some causes of it. As I continue learning more and more about this disorder, a common theme that seems to come up is pwBPD being victims of sexual abuse.  When something so horrible, so atrocious, and so confusing happens to you as a child, it is not surprising that the person has issues of trust, abandonment, and rage as an adult.

My BPDex was sexually abused as a child.  This is not something she told many people and I don't know all of the details of it.  But it sounds truly horrible.  A person who is supposed to take care of you, an uncle, a family friend, maybe even your own father, doing things to you and make you do things to them.  Things that you know are wrong but at such a young age don't understand.  This is the kind of abuse that can break a person for life, that is, it may not be possible to recover from it.

Mine carried around the shame from it, as one might expect.  She called herself "unclean" and "damaged goods".  I encouraged her to seek help but she assured me there was nothing wrong with her and refused going to any kind of counseling.  

I can't imagine what it would be like to be sexually assaulted as a child.  And when it has happened to you multiple times, always dreading the next time.  The movie "Sleepers" made me shiver, but I really can't imagine that happening in real life.  I really have to wonder if all the rage built up inside of her, all the the lack of trust, all the many aspects of her disorder all go back to this horrible thing that happened to her years ago.  

Does anyone else have experiences like this?

[StillRecovering]

I have moved past the point of having any desire to have any sort of contact with my ex but I do want to better understand personality disorders.  Borderline personality disorder doesn't just come out of nowhere; there have to be some causes of it. As I continue learning more and more about this disorder, a common theme that seems to come up is pwBPD being victims of sexual abuse.  When something so horrible, so atrocious, and so confusing happens to you as a child, it is not surprising that the person has issues of trust, abandonment, and rage as an adult.

My BPDex was sexually abused as a child.  This is not something she told many people and I don't know all of the details of it.  But it sounds truly horrible.  A person who is supposed to take care of you, an uncle, a family friend, maybe even your own father, doing things to you and make you do things to them.  Things that you know are wrong but at such a young age don't understand.  This is the kind of abuse that can break a person for life, that is, it may not be possible to recover from it.

Mine carried around the shame from it, as one might expect.  She called herself "unclean" and "damaged goods".  I encouraged her to seek help but she assured me there was nothing wrong with her and refused going to any kind of counseling.  

I can't imagine what it would be like to be sexually assaulted as a child.  And when it has happened to you multiple times, always dreading the next time.  The movie "Sleepers" made me shiver, but I really can't imagine that happening in real life.  I really have to wonder if all the rage built up inside of her, all the the lack of trust, all the many aspects of her disorder all go back to this horrible thing that happened to her years ago.  

Does anyone else have experiences like this?

[Driver]

If you are asking someone with BPD to talk about it inhere, I don't think you'll have many reactions as this kind of subject is most than probably triggering for them.

With that said, not all pwBPD have been sexually abused. They may have lived other traumas though such as being beaten or abandoned as early as they were babies.

It's damaging for life and heartbreaking to know that they had to go through hell when they were babies and children and that because of their persecutors and torturers they still today live a hellish life with near-to-impossible commitments to long term relationships.

What is also heartbreaking is that no matter how much we may love them, we seem helpless. If only there was a magical wand... .sigh.

[StillRecovering]

If you are asking someone with BPD to talk about it inhere, I don't think you'll have many reactions as this kind of subject is most than probably triggering for them.

Please let me clarify.  I meant does anyone have experiences in a relationship with a borderline who has been sexually abused.  I was wondering about the effect it had on the relationship, e.g., rages, trust issues, withholding sex, cheating, etc.

What is also heartbreaking is that no matter how much we may love them, we seem helpless. If only there was a magical wand... .sigh.

That really is the most frustrating part.  I thought I could help her, that we could be happy together... .like you said... .sigh... .

[thisworld]

Dear StillRecovering,

I'm truly sorry that your BPDex went through sexual abuse as a child. I'm happy that she is alive, no matter how fragile and is a survivor. I hope she finds a healing path one day, which may lessen her pain if not achieve full "recovery".

As far as I know, reports of high-betrayal recovery is around 75% in BPD and many people here have heard from their partners that they were sexually abused as children. As these homes may not be emotionally safe in a lot of senses, I think, with some individuals, the mechanism for BPD may have been established before that as well. Many effects of trauma (rage etc) may also be not due to long-term neglect individuals experience as children.  

My ex (a male) has shared this with me but from what he says, this occurred when he was 16. I know for sure that he had a traumatic childhood and he dissociates a lot, so trauma has been a big part of his psychological state. He also says he was raped by a male friend as an adult. I know for sure that his sexual boundaries are mixed-up as I experienced violation of my boundaries with him and also heard his shock-stories - I don't know how true these are.

I feel sad, very sad for what he experienced as a child (with or without sexual abuse) but I also feel sad that I had to experience abuse from him. As an adult, I'm still trying to come to terms with it. (I'm grateful that as an adult, life offers me the opportunity to become a survivor rather than remain as a victim. Many victims of childhood sexual abuse say that this path is what heals them as well.)

So how do I relate to what I heard? My ex always talked about his painful childhood. I come from one as well although my childhood was not as volatile as his. So, when I heard his story, I felt a familiarity. I never visualised him as a child, but he had something childlike about him sometimes and I wanted to cuddle that child and wanted to say We'll be OK. During this, I happened to neglect my own broken-hearted inner child that I have had to make contact with after a childhood with a low-grade NPD mother. I felt very angry for everything my ex had to go through. I thought, as people with similar emotional experiences, we could treat each other with sensitivity and care. Unfortunately, this did not happen. So, in my healing, I feel anger at him sometimes. My goal is to handle this in a healthy way, trying to hear what my anger says to me about myself and my boundaries and then let go. Judith Herman of trauma studies says something along these lines: if abuse is not treated or if the victim doesn't heal, they become their abuser. This is where bitterness takes people to; we may entitled to cause pain to others because we, ourselves, suffered so much. I feel very sorry that my ex is like this and angry (very angry at life, at his parents, at many psychiatrists who ignored abuse, trauma, BPD and just focused on his drug use, at people who told him to quit drugs first and then they would talk to him, at everyone basically). Still, I think this gives him no right to treat people the way he treats them. As an adult, he received this feedback from a lot of people but doesn't have the motivation to change at this point in his life. I have calmness in me about detachment. I have worked on acceptance.

So, this is how I relate to this situation. What are your feelings (other than frustration), your understanding and your personal healing goal in relation to this?

Best,

TW

 

[anothercasualty]

Please let me clarify.  I meant does anyone have experiences in a relationship with a borderline who has been sexually abused.  I was wondering about the effect it had on the relationship, e.g., rages, trust issues, withholding sex, cheating, etc.

That really is the most frustrating part.  I thought I could help her, that we could be happy together... .like you said... .sigh... .

I suspect there are many BPD women that were sexually abused. Mine was. I don't think it was THE reason that she was BPD, but was one more reason. Strange part was she was a very sexual person (maybe even hyper sexual). I would have thought those that were abused would shy away from sex.

Unfortunately, my codependent side thought I could show her that not all men were like those from her past and "love her through this". That did not work and before long I felt lost myself.

Sorry to say it this way, but I am glad I am not alone. It's good to know my sanity (or lack thereof at times), is shared with others.

[Moselle]

I know mine was abused in various ways.

I suspected sexual abuse and when she was in therapy for 4 years the topic came up. When I asked her if it happened she said "I don't know" .

Her borderline sister had previously accused a cousin of it, but the parents brushed it under the carpet to avoid the family fallout.

She lives in a delusional world so this kind of thing might be too painful for her mind to a knowledge or bring up. So yes I suspect it but it's not confirmed.

[StillRecovering]

So, this is how I relate to this situation. What are your feelings (other than frustration), your understanding and your personal healing goal in relation to this?

 

Thisworld,

Thank you for your caring, detailed response.  I am very sad for my ex as well, and I can relate to what you said about trying to bond.  My goal is to understand where the angry, bizarre, and abusive behavior of my ex and other pwBPD comes from.  It seems to all come down to abandonment.  Sexual abuse is clearly a form of abandonment.  Someone who was supposed to take care of you (or at the very least not force sexual acts on you) abandoned you by doing these things and robbing you of your innocence.  I don't think a child is developed enough to process what is going on, but it lays the groundwork for BPD.  Also, like you said, if it is an environment where sexual abuse can occur, there are likely other problems in these homes, furthering the probability of developing BPD.  The BPD was abandoned as a child and that mark is left there, very deeply, making them always fear abandonment as an adult, thus the cycle of the disorder continues.

[StillRecovering]

I suspect there are many BPD women that were sexually abused. Mine was. I don't think it was THE reason that she was BPD, but was one more reason. Strange part was she was a very sexual person (maybe even hyper sexual). I would have thought those that were abused would shy away from sex.

Same in my case.

She lives in a delusional world so this kind of thing might be too painful for her mind to a knowledge or bring up. So yes I suspect it but it's not confirmed.

Similar to my case in lot of ways.

It really is astonishing how similar all of our experiences with pwBPD are.  I read other people's stories on here and it's like I'm hearing about my own life.

[Lifewriter16]

Just to put in my two-penny worth:

There are lots of people who have been sexually abused who do not develop BPD and also there are pwBPD who make false allegations at various points in their lives (as evidenced on the parenting board here). My limited understanding is that pwBPD who are diagnosed, have genetically different brain structure to nons. So, it is a very complex interaction.  I don't think sexual abuse or other trauma causes BPD, though it may cause push-pull behaviours that mimic BPD in some ways. Perhaps trauma precipitates BPD if the person is genetically pre-disposed to it.

Whatever the causes of the BPD, sexual abuse causes great suffering to the individuals involved. An interesting book for relatives of women who have been sexually abused is 'The Courage to Heal' by Ellen Bass and Laura Davies.

Love Lifewriter

[steelwork]

Thisworld, I could have written this myself--practically word for word. This is why I can never get to anger. (This and the legacy of my own childhood.)

Well, still working on detaching.

But he already has my forgiveness. Even though he hasn't asked for it. 

Dear StillRecovering,

I'm truly sorry that your BPDex went through sexual abuse as a child. I'm happy that she is alive, no matter how fragile and is a survivor. I hope she finds a healing path one day, which may lessen her pain if not achieve full "recovery".

As far as I know, reports of high-betrayal recovery is around 75% in BPD and many people here have heard from their partners that they were sexually abused as children. As these homes may not be emotionally safe in a lot of senses, I think, with some individuals, the mechanism for BPD may have been established before that as well. Many effects of trauma (rage etc) may also be not due to long-term neglect individuals experience as children.  

My ex (a male) has shared this with me but from what he says, this occurred when he was 16. I know for sure that he had a traumatic childhood and he dissociates a lot, so trauma has been a big part of his psychological state. He also says he was raped by a male friend as an adult. I know for sure that his sexual boundaries are mixed-up as I experienced violation of my boundaries with him and also heard his shock-stories - I don't know how true these are.

I feel sad, very sad for what he experienced as a child (with or without sexual abuse) but I also feel sad that I had to experience abuse from him. As an adult, I'm still trying to come to terms with it. (I'm grateful that as an adult, life offers me the opportunity to become a survivor rather than remain as a victim. Many victims of childhood sexual abuse say that this path is what heals them as well.)

So how do I relate to what I heard? My ex always talked about his painful childhood. I come from one as well although my childhood was not as volatile as his. So, when I heard his story, I felt a familiarity. I never visualised him as a child, but he had something childlike about him sometimes and I wanted to cuddle that child and wanted to say We'll be OK. During this, I happened to neglect my own broken-hearted inner child that I have had to make contact with after a childhood with a low-grade NPD mother. I felt very angry for everything my ex had to go through. I thought, as people with similar emotional experiences, we could treat each other with sensitivity and care. Unfortunately, this did not happen. So, in my healing, I feel anger at him sometimes. My goal is to handle this in a healthy way, trying to hear what my anger says to me about myself and my boundaries and then let go. Judith Herman of trauma studies says something along these lines: if abuse is not treated or if the victim doesn't heal, they become their abuser. This is where bitterness takes people to; we may entitled to cause pain to others because we, ourselves, suffered so much. I feel very sorry that my ex is like this and angry (very angry at life, at his parents, at many psychiatrists who ignored abuse, trauma, BPD and just focused on his drug use, at people who told him to quit drugs first and then they would talk to him, at everyone basically). Still, I think this gives him no right to treat people the way he treats them. As an adult, he received this feedback from a lot of people but doesn't have the motivation to change at this point in his life. I have calmness in me about detachment. I have worked on acceptance.

So, this is how I relate to this situation. What are your feelings (other than frustration), your understanding and your personal healing goal in relation to this?

Best,

TW

 

[apollotech]

According to the experts, BPD stems from a dysfunctional attachment or detachment (depending on what you read) from their very first primary caregiver. The pwBPD never developed their own identity, their own autonomous "self." That's the relationship they are continually trying to replicate in order to become "whole" again. This occured before the age of three, before recoverable memories were formed. It's a developmental disorder, not the result of abuse. As LW has stated, there also seems to be strong evidence of a genetic/hardware predisposition for the disorder.

We were all BPDer's at one point in our development, that's normal.

[StillRecovering]

According to the experts, BPD stems from a dysfunctional attachment or detachment (depending on what you read) from their very first primary caregiver. The pwBPD never developed their own identity, their own autonomous "self." That's the relationship they are continually trying to replicate in order to become "whole" again. This occured before the age of three, before recoverable memories were formed. It's a developmental disorder, not the result of abuse. As LW has stated, there also seems to be strong evidence of a genetic/hardware predisposition for the disorder.

We were all BPDer's at one point in our development, that's normal.

I understand what you are saying but a lot of research also points to childhood trauma as a cause for BPD.  Yes, there are genetic factors and I agree with the detachment from the primary caregiver, but events that occur after the age of three can certainly determine whether a person turns out BPD or not.  These events can be neglect, abandonment, having the validity of thoughts and feelings denied, and abuse, sexual or otherwise. 

[steelwork]

Worth distinguishing correlation and causation. The sexual or other abuse later in childhood may not cause BPD but may be correlated with it.

In the case of my uBPDx: he was regularly beaten and emotionally abused by the man his mother married when he was 7. His mother stood by. I believe he has c-ptsd.

But note that his primary caregiver MARRIED this p.o.s. and stayed with him. Why? His biological father was regularly beating HER when she was still with him. That cannot have been an emotionally healthy mother.

It makes sense that abuse is strongly correlated with the conditions that put someone at risk for BPD.

According to the experts, BPD stems from a dysfunctional attachment or detachment (depending on what you read) from their very first primary caregiver. The pwBPD never developed their own identity, their own autonomous "self." That's the relationship they are continually trying to replicate in order to become "whole" again. This occured before the age of three, before recoverable memories were formed. It's a developmental disorder, not the result of abuse. As LW has stated, there also seems to be strong evidence of a genetic/hardware predisposition for the disorder.

We were all BPDer's at one point in our development, that's normal.

[thisworld]

So, this is how I relate to this situation. What are your feelings (other than frustration), your understanding and your personal healing goal in relation to this?

Thisworld,

Thank you for your caring, detailed response.  I am very sad for my ex as well, and I can relate to what you said about trying to bond.  My goal is to understand where the angry, bizarre, and abusive behavior of my ex and other pwBPD comes from.  It seems to all come down to abandonment.  Sexual abuse is clearly a form of abandonment.  Someone who was supposed to take care of you (or at the very least not force sexual acts on you) abandoned you by doing these things and robbing you of your innocence.  I don't think a child is developed enough to process what is going on, but it lays the groundwork for BPD.  Also, like you said, if it is an environment where sexual abuse can occur, there are likely other problems in these homes, furthering the probability of developing BPD.  The BPD was abandoned as a child and that mark is left there, very deeply, making them always fear abandonment as an adult, thus the cycle of the disorder continues.

StillRecovering hi again,

Yes, you are right, fear of abandonment and engulfment are at the core of BPD and many behaviours we experience are coping skills for that. Is a particular person abusive at that moment because of this particular fear, or are they experiencing a mood change they cannot name, or is it something else? I think we may never know exactly. Also, sexual abuse doesn't mean that people with coping skills similar to those of our exes are the only possible outcome. For every individual there is a unique combination, isn't there? Genetic disposition, life circumstances, experiences, years experienced as a result of certain coping skills, choices. I understand your need to understand where this all comes from and making meaning is important for our own healing. If your ex was sexually abused and this has not been treated, even a relationship with someone with the same sex as the abuser may cause a lot of reactions you may deem extraordinary depending on her trauma - again, every traumatised person is unique. Sometimes, in some abusive families, things go back for generations and some behaviours are just learned. Only your ex can discover the causes of her behaviour in therapy by making her own narrative the way you are.

One thing is for sure, these reactions come from a probably disordered, troubled state which cannot be healed by love alone - especially with BPD in the equation.  

My personal opinion is that when we are looking for causes for a present state, we should also consider the lack of personal motivation to seek inner healing (through formal, informal, personal, inner methods) as this is the factor that moves an abuse victim from the victim state to the survivor state. In this sense, personal responsibility if we can use it for our own health is liberating in the end. I have no moral judgment on this "lack" as pwBPD sometimes have a condition that prevent them from seeing that they have a problem. However, this is not the case with sexual abuse. I'm not saying that it's the victim's "fault" that they are not seeking healing. This is not a "fault" and nobody, simply nobody

can judge this because we can never truly know what prevents a victim from doing that. Sometimes, people believe they will not heal so they are afraid to start. Sometimes, there are unintentional enablers around. Sometimes nobody has an idea how painful this may all be. But we can only hope they find tools that bring them peace of mind one day. I truly wish for this. 

How is your detachment going? How do you feel about the 3Cs: didn't cause it, cannot control it, cannot cure it?

Stay strong     

[SummerStorm]

My BPD friend was molested once, at age 15.  Her mother had the person removed from their house, through the proper channels, and my BPD friend went to therapy for it.  But according to my BPD friend, it happened from ages 10-16.  She also lies about or exaggerates about abuse in her romantic relationships. 

Her mom and dad got divorced when she was young, but she saw both parents often.  Mom reports that, from an early age, my BPD friend just wasn't content.  She bounced around from interest to interest and gave up on things when they became too difficult (riding a bike, riding a horse, karate lessons). 

In 2009, her mom got married again, but before they got married, they sat my BPD friend down and told her they could wait until she graduated high school to get married, so she could graduate from the high school she had been attending for three years.  She said she was fine with moving, so they moved.  The first year was pretty good, but as soon as she started college, it all went downhill.  A different guy every weekend, drugs, alcohol, a suicide attempt, stealing money, etc.  She then started making a big deal out of the molestation, and her mom offered to put her back in therapy, but my BPD friend refused. 

So, that event might have contributed to her BPD coming to the surface, but there were already hints of it when she was a kid.

It's quite sad, really.  When she was in preschool, she drew a picture of her mom and said she wanted to be just like her when she grew up.  Now, she's not even speaking to her. 

[StillRecovering]

Worth distinguishing correlation and causation. The sexual or other abuse later in childhood may not cause BPD but may be correlated with it.

In the case of my uBPDx: he was regularly beaten and emotionally abused by the man his mother married when he was 7. His mother stood by. I believe he has c-ptsd.

But note that his primary caregiver MARRIED this p.o.s. and stayed with him. Why? His biological father was regularly beating HER when she was still with him. That cannot have been an emotionally healthy mother.

It makes sense that abuse is strongly correlated with the conditions that put someone at risk for BPD.

Steelwork - this makes a lot of sense.  The environment that caused the BPD is much more likely to include sexual abuse, but correlation is not necessarily causation.

One thing is for sure, these reactions come from a probably disordered, troubled state which cannot be healed by love alone - especially with BPD in the equation.   

My personal opinion is that when we are looking for causes for a present state, we should also consider the lack of personal motivation to seek inner healing (through formal, informal, personal, inner methods) as this is the factor that moves an abuse victim from the victim state to the survivor state. In this sense, personal responsibility if we can use it for our own health is liberating in the end. I have no moral judgment on this "lack" as pwBPD sometimes have a condition that prevent them from seeing that they have a problem. However, this is not the case with sexual abuse. I'm not saying that it's the victim's "fault" that they are not seeking healing. This is not a "fault" and nobody, simply nobody

can judge this because we can never truly know what prevents a victim from doing that. Sometimes, people believe they will not heal so they are afraid to start. Sometimes, there are unintentional enablers around. Sometimes nobody has an idea how painful this may all be. But we can only hope they find tools that bring them peace of mind one day. I truly wish for this. 

How is your detachment going? How do you feel about the 3Cs: didn't cause it, cannot control it, cannot cure it?

Stay strong    

Thank you again for your helpful response thisworld.  My detachment is going somewhat well.  I can work with the "cause" and "control" parts but have trouble with the "cure" part.  Because I thought I could.  Like you said above, they cannot be cured by love alone.  The unfortunate part for the partners is that the inner rage caused by the sexual abuse combined with the personality disorder leads to it getting taken out on us.  That was the most confusing part.  Little things that wouldn't bother most people sending my BPDex into a rage.  I guess that is more the disorder than the fallout from childhood abuse?

[StillRecovering]

She then started making a big deal out of the molestation, and her mom offered to put her back in therapy, but my BPD friend refused. 

So, that event might have contributed to her BPD coming to the surface, but there were already hints of it when she was a kid.

SummerStorm, this makes a lot of sense and goes along with what Steelwork said.  I now understand that the BPD was already there and the molestation brought it out.  Thank you for sharing this.

Her mom and dad got divorced when she was young, but she saw both parents often.  Mom reports that, from an early age, my BPD friend just wasn't content.  She bounced around from interest to interest and gave up on things when they became too difficult (riding a bike, riding a horse, karate lessons).  

On a side note, this seems very common for BPD's.  They "bounce around", whether it be activities, jobs, partners, cities.  They do not have a sense of self so they cannot fully commit to anything and engage in it for long periods of time. That would be the opposite of chaos, and they thrive on chaos.

[Teereese]

Dear StillRecovering,

I'm truly sorry that your BPDex went through sexual abuse as a child. I'm happy that she is alive, no matter how fragile and is a survivor. I hope she finds a healing path one day, which may lessen her pain if not achieve full "recovery".

As far as I know, reports of high-betrayal recovery is around 75% in BPD and many people here have heard from their partners that they were sexually abused as children. As these homes may not be emotionally safe in a lot of senses, I think, with some individuals, the mechanism for BPD may have been established before that as well. Many effects of trauma (rage etc) may also be not due to long-term neglect individuals experience as children.  

My ex (a male) has shared this with me but from what he says, this occurred when he was 16. I know for sure that he had a traumatic childhood and he dissociates a lot, so trauma has been a big part of his psychological state. He also says he was raped by a male friend as an adult. I know for sure that his sexual boundaries are mixed-up as I experienced violation of my boundaries with him and also heard his shock-stories - I don't know how true these are.

I feel sad, very sad for what he experienced as a child (with or without sexual abuse) but I also feel sad that I had to experience abuse from him. As an adult, I'm still trying to come to terms with it. (I'm grateful that as an adult, life offers me the opportunity to become a survivor rather than remain as a victim. Many victims of childhood sexual abuse say that this path is what heals them as well.)

So how do I relate to what I heard? My ex always talked about his painful childhood. I come from one as well although my childhood was not as volatile as his. So, when I heard his story, I felt a familiarity. I never visualised him as a child, but he had something childlike about him sometimes and I wanted to cuddle that child and wanted to say We'll be OK. During this, I happened to neglect my own broken-hearted inner child that I have had to make contact with after a childhood with a low-grade NPD mother. I felt very angry for everything my ex had to go through. I thought, as people with similar emotional experiences, we could treat each other with sensitivity and care. Unfortunately, this did not happen. So, in my healing, I feel anger at him sometimes. My goal is to handle this in a healthy way, trying to hear what my anger says to me about myself and my boundaries and then let go. Judith Herman of trauma studies says something along these lines: if abuse is not treated or if the victim doesn't heal, they become their abuser. This is where bitterness takes people to; we may entitled to cause pain to others because we, ourselves, suffered so much. I feel very sorry that my ex is like this and angry (very angry at life, at his parents, at many psychiatrists who ignored abuse, trauma, BPD and just focused on his drug use, at people who told him to quit drugs first and then they would talk to him, at everyone basically). Still, I think this gives him no right to treat people the way he treats them. As an adult, he received this feedback from a lot of people but doesn't have the motivation to change at this point in his life. I have calmness in me about detachment. I have worked on acceptance.

So, this is how I relate to this situation. What are your feelings (other than frustration), your understanding and your personal healing goal in relation to this?

Best,

TW

 

So familiar Thisworld.

My stbxh was neglected and abused - emotionally, verbally, physically and sexually - likely while still in utero. From what I could gather over the years, it is likely both of his parents were victims of all varieties of neglect and abuse as children, as well. Family secrets.

I felt for him. I tried to help him. I tried to love him. It was jut too much for me.

To be honest, he used his childhood as a weapon. It was a trump card that got thrown out as his explanation for his behaviors.

I get angry, with myself, with him, his (now deceased parents) and his extended family. Throughout his life, he had supportive people and many chances at healing through therapy but he refused. I truly believe that the healing process would have been to hard for him. Instead he opted to hold on to the negative and remain a hurt child, an angry addict, lashing out at the world.

My goal is to detach, heal myself and move on with life.

[thisworld]

I can work with the "cause" and "control" parts but have trouble with the "cure" part.

This is so insightful StillRecovering as many people in (or were in) difficult relationships that I know struggle most with this. For one thing, it connotes things that supposedly "can be done" in the relationship space (which is wrong). Secondly, for many people, this has connections with rescuer reflexes, perfectionism and even guilt and a feeling of failure. In my personal example, I experienced that feeling of failure a lot due to my upbringing. In this relationship, it is somehow easier to let go ( I have admitted eternal defeat at the face of Cluster B now:)). Do you think, in your case, difficulty with the last C is related to something about you and only you? I believe, if you work on that aspect of this third C, it will bother you less in time.

For failure, this is how I think nowadays: This thing where I feel failed was not something where I should or could be expected to succeed anyway. This is a disorder, at this stage it cannot be cured by relationship love. (Actually, as far as I understand, many of us or the loving space we provide seem to be the triggering factor of certain aspects of BPD). If I see this as something where I should succeed, I imagine myself as a penguin that accidentally entered a flying contest:) This area is for healthcare providers actually. We cannot cure anyone beyond their efforts (though I wish we could:)) I like to think that in reality, I didn't fail in anything actually. It was beyond my boundaries and power to cure him, it was within my boundaries to love him to the best of my power as a limited being, which I did. During this, I made some mistakes but then everybody does in every relationship. I can work on those aspects of myself on my own and with support. I also had a chance to practice better skills with my ex. It didn't work. And, unfortunately but realistically, although communication improved, the satisfaction I got from communicating or associating did not increase. I'll let go like you are successfully doing as well.  

Note: I made a mistake in my previous post. It should be "high-betrayal abuse". Sorry for that.

And again, for the cause, this is probably like a ball of wool, the owner of the issues will enter into this from a point of entry and will discover a lot about themselves on the way. But again, isn't it like that for everyone anyway? Some years ago, I came down with thought OCD, an anxiety disorder. At first, it was treated as a genetic disposition, then I discovered in my therapy stuff that was traumatic to me, then I realized that certain people around me would trigger me for a while (my NPD mother being one), then I discovered that some life experiences added new themes to my problem. I cannot say, there is this single cause. But everyone makes a narrative to make sense. I think, for our own healing and detachment purposes, it's important to understand that whatever the cause, we cannot cure it.

Sometimes, when they hear that someone loved was abused, people feel shame and guilt as well as sorrow. That this person had a worse lot than ourselves makes us feel (covertly) morally obliged (for lack of a better description) to tolerate hurtful things that we would not otherwise. Do you have this? Or what do you think about it?

Stay strong! 

[SummerStorm]

She then started making a big deal out of the molestation, and her mom offered to put her back in therapy, but my BPD friend refused. 

So, that event might have contributed to her BPD coming to the surface, but there were already hints of it when she was a kid.

SummerStorm, this makes a lot of sense and goes along with what Steelwork said.  I now understand that the BPD was already there and the molestation brought it out.  Thank you for sharing this.

Her mom and dad got divorced when she was young, but she saw both parents often.  Mom reports that, from an early age, my BPD friend just wasn't content.  She bounced around from interest to interest and gave up on things when they became too difficult (riding a bike, riding a horse, karate lessons).  

On a side note, this seems very common for BPD's.  They "bounce around", whether it be activities, jobs, partners, cities.  They do not have a sense of self so they cannot fully commit to anything and engage in it for long periods of time. That would be the opposite of chaos, and they thrive on chaos.

Yes, I think there are probably many things that brought it out in her.  Her mom is really nice but has been married several times.  Her mom and dad had both been married before and have both married again since then.  And she might have thought that moving to a different school for her senior year wasn't a big deal, but it was.  A few years ago, her mom and stepdad moved to a different state.  She told them it was fine, but I think it triggered abandonment fears in her.  

Her mom has a lot of health problems (lupus, a heart condition, kidney problems), and her dad is in his 70s.  I'm sure that also contributes to her abandonment fears.

She went to college for four years and student taught, but she's working at a convenience store.  Who knows where she'll work next?  

[apollotech]

There is a lot of talk of abuse of the pwBPD on this thread. I am curious to know how much of said abuse has actually been positively confirmed by the Non? As LW pointed out, it's quite common for pwBPD to tell tales of woe in order to get the rescuer to rescuing.

[SummerStorm]

There is a lot of talk of abuse of the pwBPD on this thread. I am curious to know how much of said abuse has actually been positively confirmed by the Non? As LW pointed out, it's quite common for pwBPD to tell tales of woe in order to get the rescuer to rescuing.

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration.  Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.  

[Infern0]

Mine was sexually abused by her father over a period of years.

The damage this must do is incredible, i can't imagine what it must be like. Still it needs to be dealt with in therapy.

[apollotech]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration. 

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occured or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

[Turkish]

Please let me clarify.  I meant does anyone have experiences in a relationship with a borderline who has been sexually abused.  I was wondering about the effect it had on the relationship, e.g., rages, trust issues, withholding sex, cheating, etc.

That really is the most frustrating part.  I thought I could help her, that we could be happy together... .like you said... .sigh... .

I suspect there are many BPD women that were sexually abused. Mine was. I don't think it was THE reason that she was BPD, but was one more reason. Strange part was she was a very sexual person (maybe even hyper sexual). I would have thought those that were abused would shy away from sex.

My mother was orphaned by her mother at 12, and by her father at 14. Her father raped her from 7-14. Her older sister was, too, but managed to leave and have a fairly boilerplate mid-Western family and a happy marriage. My mother, the baby of the family (she had two older brothers as well), was left alone at 12 with her father, who also brought prostitutes to live with the two of them.

I found out about her father when I left home at 18 when my mom was basically gong off the rails. She admitted to her depression then. 24 years later, she said that one of her therapists suggested in a roundabout was that she was also BPD. My mom accepts this (in-between when she isn't arm-chair diagnosing other Borderlines, like my Ex, whom she thought was BPD right away, but never told me). Just this past week, my mom said that when I was a child (enduring her "borderline" abuse), that she was in thereapy for PTSD. She asked, "did you know that?" I BIFFed it, "no." What do you say to that? It took me growing up and leaving to send her over the edge to go into deep therapy and fully unlock the past.

Other than a brief stint as a "borderline" hippie around 1970, where she was engaged to a San Francisco hedonist (who pretty much forced her to abort their baby), she remained sexless thereafter the break-up. She married a dear friend in the mid-90s, but mostly to make it easier to take care of him after he had a severe stroke. He was all but paralyzed. She is a registered nurse.  I resented that she finally gave me a father in my mid 20s, and I didn't consider it a "real" marriage. I seriously doubt that they comsumated it. Yes, I was a Richard. She had to ruin it by telling me later that he molested (raped) his own two daughters, who were both low functioning, back in the day. WTMI, mom. Though he was kind to us, and provided a place when we were homeless, I still don't know how to feel about him. He died over 10 years ago. I remember the call. My mom told me a few years after he died.

After D3's probably molestation last year by her 17yo uncle on my Ex's side (from what we could glean, most likely touching or poking, probably through her clothes, hard to say, still a [insert alliterative swear word here] felony, we had a session with the T she abandoned me to in 2013. He already knew after the two individual sessions they had before she quit that she didn't trust men. He asked her. This time, he asked her, "has anyone ever done anything to you?" Short answer, "yes, my grandfather." I resisted the urge to jump up and say, "I knew it!" I had asked her before, because due to my mom, and other older women who had "come out" in my life, I just had a suspicion. He may have "just" fondled and touched her, I don't know. Actually, I didn't want to jump up. We were there on serious business to get guidance on how to deal with protecting our kids. I was just sad. Really, really sad...

Maybe that wasn't a crime in their home country, though maybe like in the US, families just deny it to protect the perps while the victims are sacrificed up the alter of the narcissistic family unit. Not on the Wolf Watch! Oddly, I think I am the one man my Ex actually trusts with our kids; more than the males in her family, and more than her husband even.

Unlike my mother, who had a way more horrible childhood (her father beat all of the kids, too), my Ex wasn't non-sexual; yet, quite the opposite. She used it to connect more than what I would deem healthy in a "normal" r/s, whatever that is.

Whether early development attachment issues, trauma and abuse, neural wiring or any combination thereof, a disorder or disorders are hard to explain. Whatever stories we hear, we can never know what really happened.

This whole subject actually sickens me, especially given my research in the past year, seeing how much more prevalent it is than I thought, and his much families and communities can rally around perps. I get that there can be false accusations and embelisments, but in my case, the admissions and stories were under-stated;  my Ex's very brief, rooted in shame.

[steelwork]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration.  

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occurred or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

This is really spooky. It never occurred to me to doubt my uBPDx's story. He was utterly convincing--partly because he was so matter-of-fact about it for the first year I knew him (only opening up emotionally later on). And the details were so specific and woven into a narrative that included some other extreme circumstances that have been verified. (Like the isolationist fundamentalist church his family joined.)

But then I never thought he'd be capable of some of the distortions he's come up with about me, so why do I have such faith in his reports about his childhood?

[letmeout]

I am thinking their genetically different brain structure causes a BPD's thought dysfunction. Only one time did my ex admit that he does not think like normal people think; that his thoughts are twisted from everyone else's reality.

I wonder if electroshock therapy helps? Not that a BPD person would ever subject themselves to that since they are often adamant that there is nothing wrong with them though.

My ex never bonded with his mother, maybe that made his young brain rewire itself wrong?

[steelwork]

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

[steelwork]

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

Oh, Turkish--I wrote that thinking you had written the post by apollotech about fabrication of abuse stories.  I thought you were saying you felt there might be fabrication.

Never mind!

[Turkish]

X-posted 

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

[steelwork]

X-posted 

Turkish, how much of your mother's story do you think is true? Any idea?

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

See above post--I was confusing you and someone else.

You know, I may be a sucker, but I believe my ex was not exaggerating either.

[Moselle]

There is a lot of talk of abuse of the pwBPD on this thread. I am curious to know how much of said abuse has actually been positively confirmed by the Non? As LW pointed out, it's quite common for pwBPD to tell tales of woe in order to get the rescuer to rescuing.

Nice insight. I agree with this.  They magnetize rescuers to the cause.  A mutual friend initially believed her stories of abuse (sexual and otherwise) by me. However she began to see a few inconsistencies in the stories and wasnt comfortable with her alienating the children from me. When she questioned a few things she was  banished from the rescuers club and raged at for daring to question her version of events. Nevermind there are lots of 'rescuers' to take her place. But slowly, some people are realising that things arent matching up. The FOG thickens however.

[SummerStorm]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration. 

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occured or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

If she didn't play the victim with EVERYTHING, it would be easier to believe some of my BPD friend's stories.  The best thing I ever did was ask her now ex-boyfriend for his phone number.  He told me the real story.  The sad thing is that she lied to him about things and he still believes them.  They were supposed to move across the country to live with her mom and stepdad.  A month before the move, she told him she wanted to stay because they promised her a big job promotion at work.  She works at a convenience store, and she had only been there for a few weeks when this big promotion was supposedly offered to her.  Well, guess what?  Six months later, she still hasn't gotten any big promotion.  The story she told her mom and stepdad, however, was that he physically abused her.  Then, after she robbed him and he called the police on her, she made up some grandiose story to tell her mom and made herself out to be the victim.

A few weeks ago, she texted me and told me her mom called her a "crack w**re."  Her mom didn't call her that.  All she did was tell her that she should stop posting drug references on Facebook because her employer might see them.  But the tale she spun was that her mom started a fight with her, blah blah blah.  I didn't let her pull me into that triangulation.  So now, her mom is painted black, while her dad, who was painted black for several months last year, is painted white.  He recently asked her about the feud with her mom, and she blamed everything on her mom.  He tried to get her to admit that she made things worse by calling her mom bad names, but she just got mad at him.  

[SummerStorm]

Hi Summer,

Yep, that's classic BPD eternal victimhood:

What actually occured:

In my case, the molestation at 15 was confirmed by her mom.  It was only one time, and there was no penetration.  

What the pwBPD tells, with embellishments:

Obviously, still a very traumatic experience, but nothing compared to the story she tells.

But she tells everyone she gets close to that it was from ages 10-16.

I suspect that most of these tales of childhood abuse never occurred or have been wildly exaggerated. This runs right in line with them trashing every ex partner that they've had. I think most of us become part of their "abuse" (victim) narrative.

This is really spooky. It never occurred to me to doubt my uBPDx's story. He was utterly convincing--partly because he was so matter-of-fact about it for the first year I knew him (only opening up emotionally later on). And the details were so specific and woven into a narrative that included some other extreme circumstances that have been verified. (Like the isolationist fundamentalist church his family joined.)

But then I never thought he'd be capable of some of the distortions he's come up with about me, so why do I have such faith in his reports about his childhood?

Mine was very vague about it, as she is with everything.  It saves her from getting caught in lies.  She never mentioned the names of her supposedly abusive ex-boyfriends, probably because she's still friends with them on Facebook. 

But yes, she was incredibly convincing.  In the weeks leading up to her telling me, she went on and on about how I might be someone she could "tell her secrets to."  Then, one day, she sent me about three or four texts about her past.  When I took the bait, she told me she'd been waiting all her life for someone like me. 

I'm sure she'll be telling the new guy all of this pretty soon.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I guess. 

[Feelinstronger]

I feel for you. I too was in a mostly loving and wonderful relationship with a man w BPD. Did not realize it through numerous break ups and reuniting, but our 8th breakup appears final. He disclosed to me an incident when he was a boy - a relative. He seems to have forgiven the person, however later came to know the relative also touched his siblings.  Of course its impossible to truly understand such a terrible betrayal. And to a great extent many of these victims rise above it, and go on to live surprisingly highly functional lives.  But the injury remains and who can find blame on them for feeling the effects decades later. In his case, mental illness is also in his immediate family, also making BPD more likely. My advice for you - in order for you to live a truly good life going forward: in your heart, find and give kindness and mercy. To your former partner and yourself. If you are forgiving and merciful after being injured and left, you will eventually be shown forgiveness and mercy too. Peace be with you.

[apollotech]

All of it. It came out in bits and pieces over 20+ years. It was very matter-of-fact, rather than "woe-is-me, I demand attention."

Turkish,

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

[cosmonaut]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining whether or not they are true.  You are aware that sexual abuse happens in private, right?  :)o you have any idea how many victims aren't believed?  There was just a massive scandal in Rotterham, UK where over 1,400 girls were raped over the past 20 years by criminal gangs.  The police didn't believe them.  I hope you'll take a minute and rethink what you are saying.

[apollotech]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining whether or not they are true.  You are aware that sexual abuse happens in private, right?  :)o you have any idea how many victims aren't believed?  There was just a massive scandal in Rotterham, UK where over 1,400 girls were raped over the past 20 years by criminal gangs.  The police didn't believe them.  I hope you'll take a minute and rethink what you are saying.

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

[cosmonaut]

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

How do you propose to test to make sure that what they are saying is true?  Please tell me.

[apollotech]

Cosmonaut,

I think you've taken what I have said out of context. I certainly never said that anyone that claims abuse has not been abused, as you seem to imply. What I did say, and I will stand with my statement, is that not all claims of abuse are, in fact, true and should be confirmed before being just accepted as fact. I don't know of any system that wouldn't/doesn't require that. Offensive or not, that's a fact.

How do you propose to test to make sure that what they are saying is true?  Please tell me.

I think there has been one example of confirming abuse already given here (see SummerStorm's post). Cosmonaut, let me ask you this, should all claims of abuse just be accepted at face value? We should just persecute the accused without any evidence that the abuse occured other than the word of the accuser? (Especially when the accuser has already proven themselves to be untruthful on many issues.) I think this is where you've misinterpreted what I have said. You're stuck on believe, I said to confirm, which, unfortunately, didn't occur in the UK. Cosmonaut, for every example that you can give where abuse did indeed occur, there is also an example of where abuse was claimed, yet said claim was discovered to be unfounded. That is what I was saying in my posts.

Here is my story of confirmation cosmonaut: In my personal relationship I heard many tales of an abusive exhusband. After the demise of my relationship with this woman, I decided to do a little checking on some of her stories. I happened to have business at the couthouse in the parish where she was granted a divorce from her claimed abuser. When i finished my business there, I stopped by the records office and had the clerk pull her divorce proceedings. Would you like to know how many times the word "abuse" appeared in the divorce record?---zero. Would you like to know how many police records and/or medical records were submitted as evidence to said abuse?---zero. Would you like to know how many times her attorney raised claims of abuse during the proceedings?---zero. Would you like to know how many witnesses (friends and/or relatives, including children of late teenage years that were living under the same roof as her and her husband at the time) were called to testify to said abuse?---zero. Would you like to know the grounds on which the divorce was actually granted?---No Fault. (Also, this horribly abusive man had never been arrested for anything his entire life, not one time with any woman that he had ever been involved with, including this ex that was accusing him of every abusive thing that you could think of) Yet, my BPDexgf had absolutely no problem telling anyone that would listen about the abuse she suffered at the hands of her ex. When I finally walked out of the relationship, would you like to know who became her latest abuser at that time?---I did. Would you like to know how many times I actually abused her?---zero, never even called her an ugly name nor did I ever even raise my voice at her, much less raise my hand at her. Would you like to know who her latest abuser is?---check her Facebook page, it'll be the last guy that walked away from her or she discarded.

Now, with all that said, does that confirm that people are not abused?---no, in no way, shape, or form is that claim being made. But it does lustrate that some claims of abuse are BS manufactured to achieve an end result.

[apollotech]

I'd say that that is indeed how people that actually did experience childhood abuse tell their story. It's, as you said, a factual telling, rather than an "I am a victim" of abuse telling, and related over a very long period of time. It's actually very difficult to get someone that actually experienced childhood abuse to actually talk about it.(Completely in contrast to most of the stories of childhood abuse that are retold on these boards.) Also, I have never seen professional research which correlates childhood abuse as being any higher or occurring with more frequency with a pwBPD than it would be with any other member of the general populace.

This is a truly offensive comment.  You have absolutely no right to discredit claims of abuse that you haven't any possible way of determining.

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

[thisworld]

Hello

I think the statement causing the disagreement is the one that seems to suggest that the survivor's narrative/telling style may be used as a criterion to determine the actuality of the said event. (The first sentence in the quotation above. Honestly, I got this impression from this statement, too; but when our experience of BPD is in the equation, I find it somehow understandable though I can see how it can offend as well.) As a fact, we know that this is not true and abuse survivors tell their stories in many different ways - sometimes in laughter to compensate for shame, sometimes they write quite pornographic narratives on support sites etc. None of this changes anything about the accuracy of the event actually. (I believe my ex's story but was alienated by the tone he talked about it because I associated it with the tone he used when his NPD was at work - and maybe this was just a bias of mine but my gut said this to me at that time. It was this association that made it difficult for me, not the tone on its own.)   

But I'd like to point at something else as well. We have been talking about "confirming" abuse. Unless it's a well-documented case - which is extremely rare for a lot of reasons- we basically cannot confirm abuse. Who are we going to ask? One of the potential abusers or their silent support cycle? How credible are people whom we deem credible? But I think what matters is what we do with this information (true or not) and whatever we think is its effects on our relationship with a person.

So, as Nons, how does a potential history of abuse affect our understanding of our partner, our expectations from them, how much we hold them responsible or accountable for their behaviours that we think stem from abuse? Basically what are our emotional boundaries in regard to the present behaviour that we think stems from a history of abuse? I think this would change for everyone and exchanging opinions may be beneficial for all of us maybe?

Also, if we believe your partner "exaggerated" what happened (which is possible as much as different emotional realities are possible in a topic like this and we are not talking about PTSD survivors only, we are talking about individuals with BPD), again, how does it affect our understanding of our partner and our relationships? 

I honestly think we can only talk about ourselves here, discovering our truth. There is the statistic that 75% of pwBPD report childhood abuse. Within that though, everyone has their unique story. Also, apparently, some BPD patients are officially diagnosed with PTSD in the US so that the insurance offers longer-term health support. We may believe something; we may be correct or we may be terribly wrong. But how did the presence of abuse (as a fact or fabrication) affect our relationships?

[iluminati]

Interesting thread.  Here are a few things to add based on my experience.

* Most people with BPD tend to be matter of fact in terms of relating their experiences.  In something that doesn't matter sense at first glance, people with BPD don't tend to think of their sexual abuse as particularly remarkable.  They're more amazed that it doesn't happen to anyone.

* People with BPD will try to draw attention for something else which, once you do some digging, is connected to their abuse.  For example, my ex-wife was very strange about her feet being touched or even looked at for any reason.  She will melt down if you notice her bare feet for any reason.  However, she was matter of fact about being molested by a minister and family friend with a foot fetish.

* Sexual abuse in and of itself doesn't cause BPD.  Roughly 20% of children have been sexually abused in the US, while BPD rates range from 2-6%.  :)o the math.  Interestingly enough, there are studies that show that sexual abuse in and of itself isn't as damaging.  If the victim has a supportive family, while they won't look on it as a positive experience, they can function relatively well.  The thing is that pedophiles tend to target dysfunctional families.  So then it becomes a question of what came first, the dysfunction or the molestation.    And even on top of that, that dysfunction doesn't necessarily lead to BPD.  Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

* With BPD, it isn't just the sexual abuse per se but the amount of abuse, the depth of abuse and the dysfunctional family response.  You hear a lot of abuse being shut up for years because of a wealth of family issues.  So when you're dealing with BPD and sexual abuse, you're also dealing with the family dysfunction and the codepdendent adults that ultimately drive it.

[apollotech]

Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

iluminati,

I am pretty sure that I am reading this incorrectly, so please correct me, but what you seem to be saying is that childhood sexual abuse is a necessity to cause BPD, but in and of itself, alone, is not sufficient enough to cause BPD?

[iluminati]

Yes.  I've seen academic discussions mention something on the order of 90% of patients have sexual abuse histories.  That said, the majority of sexual abuse victims don't have BPD.  That doesn't mean that they're all happy.  That just means their issues don't result in BPD.

[thisworld]

* With BPD, it isn't just the sexual abuse per se but the amount of abuse, the depth of abuse and the dysfunctional family response.

Isn't this so for everyone?

[apollotech]

Yes.  I've seen academic discussions mention something on the order of 90% of patients have sexual abuse histories.  That said, the majority of sexual abuse victims don't have BPD.  That doesn't mean that they're all happy.  That just means their issues don't result in BPD.

Roughly 20% of children have been sexually abused in the US, while BPD rates range from 2-6%.

How would one account for the discrepancy between these statistics? If childhood sexual abuse is a necessity for the development of BPD, shouldn't that latter statistic for pwBPD be at close to 100℅ reporting childhood sexual abuse? (See the problem here?)

[Turkish]

Did some digging today, and it seems that 75% of pwBPD have a history of childhood sexual abuse. PTSD (an Axis I "state" disorder, like depression), is also prevalent, and can present complications for clinicians diagnosing BPD (an Axis II "trait" disorder).

However it breaks down, the prevalence of sexual abuse is saddening. The 1 in 5 statistic is correct (1/3 girls and 1/6 boys before the age of 18) become victims. The ratios vary slightly depending upon the study.

The point about dysfunctional families playing a part seems valid, especially given a narcissistic family dynamic where abuse is hidden or denied to preserve the family unit. That's my Ex's family.

[Michelle27]

I seriously questioned my ex on whether he had been sexually abused as a boy, something he denied but with a disclaimer of, "if I was, I don't remember". 

The reason I questioned this is because his symptoms of raging, more obvious in his lies and depression symptoms surfaced big time when his son from his first marriage disclosed sexual abuse by his step brothers in the Mom's home.  And several years later when his son went onto attempt inappropriate sexual play with my daughter with my BPD ex, it got worse.  I strongly suspect a history of sexual abuse towards my ex.

He did admit to a childhood of neglect, and physical and verbal abuse growing up.  Even got angry about it at one point and confronted his father about it (so he says).  His Mom passed away before I met him but subsequent to the breakup, I was told by his first wife that of the 2 parents, she was "crazy".  He had led me to believe his Mom was basically an angel on earth and his Dad was the abusive parent.  So I am sure there is much more than what I was told to the story.

[cosmonaut]

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

Apollo, I wrote in anger in my first post and chose my words carelessly.  I apologize for that.

I am still troubled by what you are writing, but I realize that it is not an uncommon view in our society.  I am wrong to single you out, because it is something that is a far wider problem in our society.  It is a very sad fact that sexual abuse is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves, and discrediting and blaming the victim is all too common.  I become frustrated with this, because there is overwhelming evidence that sexual abuse is one of the most damaging, lasting crimes that can be inflicted upon a person.  It may result in life long scars.  This reality hasn't sunk in with a good portion of society yet, even as progress is definitely being made.  Still, people believe what they want to believe and even facts are often not enough to change someone's mind.  Our views are often incredibly resistant to change.  Often the most we can hope for is to plant a seed.  Perhaps I can do that here.

Confirming rape and sexual abuse are notoriously difficult to prove.  Most often there are only two witnesses: the abuser and the victim.  Physical evidence can be very hard to come by, and most assaults are not reported immediately due to the shame that is a natural byproduct of the worst violation that can be inflicted upon a person.  Even when physical evidence exists, rapists' favorite defense is the "it was consensual" defense, and the case devolves into "he said, she said".  This is where the terrible assaults on the character of the victim begin, which is further victimization.  This is one of several reasons why many victims choose to not pursue justice.  Here is a good article from the University of Virginia School of Law that goes into further details about why rape and sexual assault are so difficult to prosecute.  It is a matter of widely accepted fact that the vast majority of sexual offenders are never prosecuted.  A high profile of this is Bill Cosby.  :)espite having over 50 accusers and on the record admissions on his behalf, he is still a free man and it is unlikely he will ever see prison.  This is extremely common.  The most common reason these women did not come forward earlier: they didn't think anyone would believe them.  So, your suggestion that victims need to be able to "confirm" their allegations in order to be treated with seriousness is a very dangerous idea.  It would exclude the vast majority of victims and further add to their victimization.

In a court of law obviously the rights of the defendant are given the greater priority, but in the world of support and healing it must be the other way around for the reasons outlined above.  Namely, that most victims can't prove their case, through no fault of their own.  Sexual abuse is a hidden crime.  Should therapists refuse to treat a victim of sexual abuse without confirmation?  Should pastors not provide spiritual guidance?  Should we as partners not provide our support and nurturing?  There is a place for critical thinking and if a partner's story does not hold up, that is another matter.  But otherwise, it should be our duty to believe and support our partner.  Your idea that if the victim claims to be a victim means that they are not a victim is simply wrong.  That a victim is a victim is true by definition.  It is as self evident a fact as water is wet.  As thisworld put it very well, victims express themselves in numerous ways.

You have not specifically discredited a claim of abuse.  You have done far more.  You have discredited all BPD victims of abuse who can not "confirm" their abuse.

Perhaps your personal story is clouding your judgment regarding pwBPD as a whole.  I would also like to point out that your reasoning does not show that your ex is lying about her abuse.  Because a != c, a !=d, and a !=e, we cannot show that a != b.  Can you see that?  All of the examples that you have given may strain the credibility of her claims, but they do not disprove it.  I'm truly sorry to hear that you have been falsely accused, and I certainly do not deny the reality that there are false claims of abuse.  This does not, however, invalidate that fact that the vast majority of victims cannot prove their case.  That does not mean that they are untrue.

[tryingsome]

BPD is like an avalanche.

It usually started way up top in the past somewhere. Some point when they were left alone on the mountain top.

They started falling.

This cascade started before sexual abuse.

But as it rolls down the mountain, more and more trauma follows suit (this may or may not include sexual abuse).

And at the bottom, they are just a bunch of intermingled traumas heaped into a large mound of snow.

So no, sexual abuse does not cause BPD, but it is not uncommon for them to pick this up as additional trauma along the paths of their lives.

[Lifewriter16]

BPD is like an avalanche.

It usually started way up top in the past somewhere. Some point when they were left alone on the mountain top.

They started falling.

This cascade started before sexual abuse.

But as it rolls down the mountain, more and more trauma follows suit (this may or may not include sexual abuse).

And at the bottom, they are just a bunch of intermingled traumas heaped into a large mound of snow.

So no, sexual abuse does not cause BPD, but it is not uncommon for them to pick this up as additional trauma along the paths of their lives.

Nicely put!

[cosmonaut]

Interestingly enough, there are studies that show that sexual abuse in and of itself isn't as damaging.  If the victim has a supportive family, while they won't look on it as a positive experience, they can function relatively well.  The thing is that pedophiles tend to target dysfunctional families.  So then it becomes a question of what came first, the dysfunction or the molestation.    And even on top of that, that dysfunction doesn't necessarily lead to BPD.  Sexual abuse is a necessary but not sufficient cause for BPD.

Source?  Rape has been found in some studies to be as or even more traumatic than war.  See section 2.2.3 here and the study here.

BPD isn't necessarily caused by sexual abuse, but it is an established fact that there is an unusually high correlation between physical and sexual abuse and BPD.  You can read the study here for further information.  This makes sense from what we know of the disorder, since abuse is the ultimate invalidation.

[apollotech]

Cosmonaut, I agree with your underlined statement, so please point out the member where I have specifically discredited any claim of abuse. l will gladly apologize to that member for said transgression. Also, I think that if you'll look at what I said to Turkish, you'll find that I did all but tell Turkish that I believe his mother was being honest about her abuse (I don't have any way to confirm this honesty, that's simply my belief.).

Apollo, I wrote in anger in my first post and chose my words carelessly.  I apologize for that.

I am still troubled by what you are writing, but I realize that it is not an uncommon view in our society.  I am wrong to single you out, because it is something that is a far wider problem in our society.  It is a very sad fact that sexual abuse is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves, and discrediting and blaming the victim is all too common.  I become frustrated with this, because there is overwhelming evidence that sexual abuse is one of the most damaging, lasting crimes that can be inflicted upon a person.  It may result in life long scars.  This reality hasn't sunk in with a good portion of society yet, even as progress is definitely being made.  Still, people believe what they want to believe and even facts are often not enough to change someone's mind.  Our views are often incredibly resistant to change.  Often the most we can hope for is to plant a seed.  Perhaps I can do that here.

Confirming rape and sexual abuse are notoriously difficult to prove.  Most often there are only two witnesses: the abuser and the victim.  Physical evidence can be very hard to come by, and most assaults are not reported immediately due to the shame that is a natural byproduct of the worst violation that can be inflicted upon a person.  Even when physical evidence exists, rapists' favorite defense is the "it was consensual" defense, and the case devolves into "he said, she said".  This is where the terrible assaults on the character of the victim begin, which is further victimization.  This is one of several reasons why many victims choose to not pursue justice.  Here is a good article from the University of Virginia School of Law that goes into further details about why rape and sexual assault are so difficult to prosecute.  It is a matter of widely accepted fact that the vast majority of sexual offenders are never prosecuted.  A high profile of this is Bill Cosby.  :)espite having over 50 accusers and on the record admissions on his behalf, he is still a free man and it is unlikely he will ever see prison.  This is extremely common.  The most common reason these women did not come forward earlier: they didn't think anyone would believe them.  So, your suggestion that victims need to be able to "confirm" their allegations in order to be treated with seriousness is a very dangerous idea.  It would exclude the vast majority of victims and further add to their victimization.

In a court of law obviously the rights of the defendant are given the greater priority, but in the world of support and healing it must be the other way around for the reasons outlined above.  Namely, that most victims can't prove their case, through no fault of their own.  Sexual abuse is a hidden crime.  Should therapists refuse to treat a victim of sexual abuse without confirmation?  Should pastors not provide spiritual guidance?  Should we as partners not provide our support and nurturing?  There is a place for critical thinking and if a partner's story does not hold up, that is another matter.  But otherwise, it should be our duty to believe and support our partner.  Your idea that if the victim claims to be a victim means that they are not a victim is simply wrong.  That a victim is a victim is true by definition.  It is as self evident a fact as water is wet.  As thisworld put it very well, victims express themselves in numerous ways.

You have not specifically discredited a claim of abuse.  You have done far more.  You have discredited all BPD victims of abuse who can not "confirm" their abuse.

Perhaps your personal story is clouding your judgment regarding pwBPD as a whole.  I would also like to point out that your reasoning does not show that your ex is lying about her abuse.  Because a != c, a !=d, and a !=e, we cannot show that a != b.  Can you see that?  All of the examples that you have given may strain the credibility of her claims, but they do not disprove it.  I'm truly sorry to hear that you have been falsely accused, and I certainly do not deny the reality that there are false claims of abuse.  This does not, however, invalidate that fact that the vast majority of victims cannot prove their case.  That does not mean that they are untrue.

Cosmonaut,

I agree with you very much on much of what you're saying. Child abuse of any nature is a horrible crime and should be addressed swiftly and with severe consequences. But, at the same time, those that are accused of such crimes, must also be dealt with justly. Myself, I don't know of any other way to handle that other than trying to confirm or deny the abuse. Is it a perfect system that will fulfill all obligations at all times for all involved parties to reach the truth?---no it want. But we cannot create perfect systems. You asked if I was aware that much abuse occurs within secrecy, yes I am aware of that. Again, I don't believe that we have systems to negate said secrecy efficiently 100℅ of the time to arrive at the truth. However, that shouldn't prevent us from attempting to arrive at the truth.

I don't recall saying that because someone says that they're a victim that automatically entails that they weren't a victim. That's what you're saying that I said. And no, I have not discredited anyone's claim of abuse. You are doing it by taking what I have said and applying it at the individual level. That's a fallacy. That is why I asked you to point out where I have applied the notion that not all claims of abuse are legitimate at the individual level. You're taking great liberties with what I said and applying them to issues that were never raised by me, such as, should victims be supported. I don't appreciate that.

Let me ask you this cosmonaut: if I ran a poll in a prison polling the prison population regarding their guilt or innocence and 75% of the inmate population professed their innocence, would you just automatically assume that that's correct, that 75% of said prisoner population should be released? I doubt very seriously that we'd even be having this discussion if it concerned that population. Now, is it possible that some of that 75% are indeed innocent?---yes, that's a possibility. Is it possible that all 75% of said population are innocent?---yes, that too is a possibility. Is it likely that all 75% are innocent?---no, that's not likely. Can I take that statistic, with confidence, walk up to someone in that prison population and declare their innocence or guilt based on that statistic?---no I cannot. That is what you're claiming that I am doing, and I am not.

I agree with you Cosmonaut, my example of my own situation (at least the exH piece) does not fully deny the abuse that might have occured in the marriage. However, it is just as foul to assume that said abuse occured because it cannot be completely denied. Again, we are back to an imperfect system.

Now, the piece about my abuse: that I can confirm or deny, I was there. I can tell you that that was manufactured so she could play the victim. My "atrocities" were posted on Facebook in order for her to gain sympathy from her enablers. But, she couldn't name me there as we have too many mutual friends on there that go all the way back to our childhood. They would have called her out if I would have been named.

No, my judgement isn't clouded by my personal experiences, not to the extent that you're asking about. I don't believe that all claims of childhood abuse are true, and I do believe that it's important to be aware of that possibility, especially when dealing with someone (a pwBPD) that may have "reality" issues (emotions = reality) and may have a proven track record of exaggeration, lying, and/or creating scenarios which allow them to play the victim (insert any post regarding smear campaigns here).

The best to you Cosmonaut, apology accepted. I am going to accept that we disagree or have had fouled communications/undetstanding here.

[lbjnltx]

This topic has reached it's page limit.

Feel free to continue this discussion in a new thread.