BPD or ACoA?

[MapleBob]

So, I've been thinking about my (two) experiences with uBPD romantic relationships, trying to unpack them, and the realization came to me that although they both show more-or-less traits of BPD, what they absolutely do have in common is that they were both Adult Children of Alcoholics. So I did some research, and what came up is that there are A LOT of crossover traits between these two populations. So now I'm wondering if anyone else has any experience with a BPD/ACoA, or any wisdom in distinguishing between the two?

Relevant articles:

www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/adult-children-of-alcohol_b_300572.html

www.angelfire.com/fl/Sumter/Acoa.html

[tryingsome]

I find these are near chicken or the egg arguments.

So what makes someone exhibit a list of symptoms, this is the question?

Does an alcoholic family lead to mistreatment/abandonment of the child which produces BPD?

Or do people with BPD usually come from homes that promote a bad childhood?

Is it genetics or the environment? What leads one to another. Is ACoA a cause of BPD, or is ACoA indicative of other issues in the family that lead to pwBPD.

I think what is pretty clear, that while children are 'rubber bands', having a tumultuous childhood can lead to a negative impact to adult life.

We often try to qualify things so we can better understand them; sometimes life is tough and kids adapt to survive.

[blackbirdsong]

I find these are near chicken or the egg arguments.

So what makes someone exhibit a list of symptoms, this is the question?

Does an alcoholic family lead to mistreatment/abandonment of the child which produces BPD?

Or do people with BPD usually come from homes that promote a bad childhood?

Is it genetics or the environment? What leads one to another. Is ACoA a cause of BPD, or is ACoA indicative of other issues in the family that lead to pwBPD.

I think what is pretty clear, that while children are 'rubber bands', having a tumultuous childhood can lead to a negative impact to adult life.

We often try to qualify things so we can better understand them; sometimes life is tough and kids adapt to survive.

You can have genetical predisposition for BPD. Like recently (few days ago) with schizophrenia, there is known gene that causes mental disorder. Who knows, maybe one day BPD will be very treatable with gene mutation.

But, having genetic predisposition doesn't mean that you will develop BPD. Often it requires additional triggers like abuse, childhood trauma, invalidating parents, ... .

[MapleBob]

It also seems very possible that a parent with BPD might self-medicate to the point of alcoholism, and then you wind up with a BPD-prone ACoA child. I guess it ultimately doesn't matter - traits are traits - but I thought it was interesting to consider a different diagnosis. It's muddy water either way.

[Welgrow]

I am an adult child of an alcoholic, and have come to attribute a lot of my codependency issues to my FOO. My BPD former girlfriend came from a family with tons of issues yet the parents weren't alcoholic. I'd say that in my experience I had that deep level connection with my BPD which led to the codep./BPD enmeshment... .As an adult child of an alky I certainly have my own set of abandonment issues but it doesn't go to the extent of what a pwBPD experiences. I'm at least one case where ACoA doesn't equal BPD

[MapleBob]

I am an adult child of an alcoholic, and have come to attribute a lot of my codependency issues to my FOO. My BPD former girlfriend came from a family with tons of issues yet the parents weren't alcoholic. I'd say that in my experience I had that deep level connection with my BPD which led to the codep./BPD enmeshment... .As an adult child of an alky I certainly have my own set of abandonment issues but it doesn't go to the extent of what a pwBPD experiences. I'm at least one case where ACoA doesn't equal BPD

Thank you, Welgrow! I guess my thought process is that she displayed BPD traits *and* codependency, so it was extra confusing when the push/pull behavior would kick in. Poor girl, she was really set up for this, especially if she's BPD/ACoA. Push SO HARD, pull SO HARD... .ugh.

[thisworld]

MapleBob hi

I'm an Al-Anon member (12-step for friends and families of alcoholics) for around a decade so I have many friends who are adult children of alcoholics. My BPD ex is an addict who is also the adult child of an alcoholic. My mother is a low-grade NPD (I didn't know she was abusive for a long time) and when I look back at my younger years, I can see how my boundaries were jumbled and I was a very high-risk taker the way a codependent is. I know that both children of alcoholics and NPD can have borderlinelike behaviour due to their upbringing so I can see a lot of things in common but resulting in very different manifestations.

Basically, adult children of alcoholics are codependents in this sense (and yes, very tormendted but perhaps deep down many of us here are, too) and are not very different from people who call themselves codependent here. Their "crazy" behaviours are not very different in general. Sometimes they become alcoholics or addicts, too. They are again, codependents if you believe in this line of thinking. At this point in my life, my favourite description of codependency is "an inability to live your own truth".  

However, in my personal experience, I have not seen an adult child (in or out of recovery groups) whose behaviours resembled BPD to that degree. Most adult children I have seen will have learnt to suppress their opinions, emotions, will have learnt to walk on eggshells, have lost connection with their self to a degree (but not to this BPD degree).

I have read the links you have shared and yes, they are similar. But then, to me, that could be said for many people here in or out of relationships, too. I believe the degree, frequency and when these occur matters. I personally associate them with crazymaking effects of living a codependent life rather than BPD.

Things my BPD ex had or I have seen here and my adult children friends didn't- despite similarities in sometimes volatile behaviour:

lack of object constancy

the abandonment/engulfment axis being so predictable and magnified

cognitive distortions to this degree

rewriting history the way a pwBPD may do sometimes

sexual triangulations etc being so predictable

disappearing from someone's life like some experiences and then reappearing somewhere as someone with a complete sense of values

the replacement scenario being so predictable

sexual control and violations of others' sexual boundaries so persistently

systematic boundary busting

inability to hold a personal discussion (my ex would dysregulate very quickly)

innocent, childlike reporting of events

mirroring / never met an adult child who started speaking with my accent all of a sudden:)

these idealization/devaluation/discard cycles being so disconnected with reality

Usually you get the impression that you are with a person who has done some very crazy things and who have crazy reactions but you don't get the feeling that you are with a three-year old.

My adult children friends have these traits that my BPDex didn't have:

lots of empathy (too much empathy at the cost of themselves)

too much helping, rescuing, fixing (and of course all resentments and anger that come with these behaviours)

being too used to chaos because of their upbringing, but accepting too much emotional responsibility in this trying to please everyone or keep the situation under control

Control through helping

staying for too long in abusive relationships very passively

responding lovingly to a loving environment most of the times (they may test it but also appreciate it, my ex had zero appreciation and zero trust)

coherent political values etc not changing with every person

basically a coherent sense of self as much as the next person brought up in a controlling environment but not always knowing how to find happiness.

a much bigger ability to help themselves and seek recovery

ability to criticize themselves in recovery, take inventory, make amends and stick to them

I think when Cluster B disorders are described in written clinical language, the feeling these experiences give us are left out (naturally and expectedly). Similarly, I could identify with a lot of traits in your articles and say, hımm, yes, I have this sometimes. Imagine that my ex ticks some traits and I tick them , too. Then live with both of us and you would get very different experiences. I don't know if I'm able to describe this properly.

As for my BPD ex who is also an active heroin addict with an infrequent, I have asked friends in NA if these are reactions of an addict. People say they have never seen an addict like this. I think the difference is that of the disorder.

Best, TW

[JRT]

Hi MapleBob

After mine cut and run, my informal research first brought me to my ex being an ACOA as well. It was a revelation to me about who she really was especially the tenet of guessing about what is considered to be normal. But there were many elements that were missing until I learned about BPD. Then the picture became complete.

Its sad that in the aftermath that we have no other recourse other than to speculate and conjecture regarding what happened to us. As it relates to the 2, I wondered if the ACOA characteristics related more heavily towards how she approached life on a day to day basis while her BPD thinking was more holistic (if you will). Mine certainly seemed this way. Would you say that yours was/is? 

[MapleBob]

Those are incredible insights, thisworld!

Reading those two lists I'm even more confused, because I can make a clear case for her falling more into either of those categories at different times and in different situations. She might just be comorbid, bouncing between those two sets of traits. For instance, she clearly has empathy and has a huge drive for control and calm (in fact, she has said that her main goal in life right now is to establish calm for herself - part of her justification in discarding me), but she also says and does things that show an enormous lack of empathy when she's dysregulated and experiencing a lack of control over her emotions. She has a disconnect from reality in personal relationships *big time* (and doesn't seem to have the skills to objectively test and correct that false reality), but she is also very practical and skilled at manipulating situations (even if she doesn't know that she's doing it until it's pointed out to her). It's strange.

[MapleBob]

Its sad that in the aftermath that we have no other recourse other than to speculate and conjecture regarding what happened to us. As it relates to the 2, I wondered if the ACOA characteristics related more heavily towards how she approached life on a day to day basis while her BPD thinking was more holistic (if you will). Mine certainly seemed this way. Would you say that yours was/is? 

I think that she was ACoA in "doing" relationships, and BPD in her own head. I could feel the codependence in her pretty strongly when she was clingy and trying to fix something in a relationship, and begging for me to act more codependent and clingy in return. The BPD traits seemed to be triggered as a defense mechanism when she felt paranoid about something. It's hard to describe the distinction. She was codependent until she could split someone/something black, then it was straight BPD.

[Welgrow]

TW,

I would say that you hit the nail on the head. I think that is a great distinction between the BPD and adult child with codependency. At least I feel like that described the characteristics of my former BPDg and myself. Thank you.

[Welgrow]

Maplebob,

Have you considered that perhaps she is simply BPD and she was mirroring your codependent traits? I read a post on another thread that struck me deeply. Perhaps I projected my ideal of a woman onto her. I need to love myself on a subconscious level (because I've lived my life with a belief that I'm not worthy) and I projected my capacity for love and empathy onto her. Who better to mirror me... .Who better than a Borderline?

Have you considered any of this for yourself?

[thisworld]

Welgrow hi, and you are welcome  Also, thank you for your last comment. It's pretty eye-opening.

MapleBob,

I have the same difficulty with BPD and NPD as I believe these are comorbid in my ex's examples. Also I spent a bit of time thinking whether I would attribute some behaviours to being an adult child, an addict or BPD. I believe, when I focused on the adult child aspect, it was always with a hope of "recovery" for him and our relationship going on. In the end, attributing his issues to his being an adult child offered a more positive fantasy of us being together than attributing them to BPD or addiction. (In my personal case, I see this as resistance to accept my situation * - that there is no hope for me and my ex.) Do you have anything like this in your mind as well? (In reality, I think any person may have different traits developed because of different life experiences, aren't we all like this?)

Best,

[JRT]

 She was codependent until she could split someone/something black, then it was straight BPD.[/quote]
Wow! This really hit home for me: mine was entirely devoted to our relationship. We rarely argued or even so much as disagreed. Her entire life began to revolve around mine (at least she baked it that way, it was strange to me and I began to wonder). She was sweet, demure and usually agreeable. Then, one day entirely out of the blue, she cut and run and I had not spoken to her since. That was a year and a half ago and all indications are that I am the most vile. evil and dangerous person that ever lived.

[MapleBob]

Have you considered that perhaps she is simply BPD and she was mirroring your codependent traits?

No, that doesn't resonate with me, even after giving it some serious thought. I'd love it if it did! But no, surprisingly, when I look back at our relationship it was the least codependent I have been in a relationship. I felt a very healthy attachment where I had a comfortable level of longing for her, and a comfortable amount of space and control over myself. She apparently did not, was anxiously attached, and hid that fact until it was too late and she was too far dysregulated to look at the situation objectively or with empathy. Her overall critique was that I just "didn't love her in a big way" ie. not in an intensely codependent and desperate way.

Let me put it this way: you know how an oyster builds a pearl around a single, irritating grain of sand that gets inside its shell? My ex would take a tiny grain of sand of something offhand that I had said or done that could indicate that I wasn't 110% invested in her, and turn it into a pearl of a reason why we shouldn't be together. When, in fact, it was just some offhand comment that I had made with little weight of reason or intent behind it. For instance, we were talking about our prior relationship experiences and I had said that it was nice to be seeing someone my age, because I had previously been dating somewhat younger women. Then during one of our breakups I apparently suddenly "think she's too old", or I "clearly want someone younger". That's the crux of her disorder: the fantastical level to which she will take a small thing, make it about her, stew on it until she's dysregulated, and then paint me black as a result.

I believe, when I focused on the adult child aspect, it was always with a hope of "recovery" for him and our relationship going on. In the end, attributing his issues to his being an adult child offered a more positive fantasy of us being together than attributing them to BPD or addiction. Do you have anything like this in your mind as well?

I don't think that a clear diagnosis one way or another would qualify as a "positive fantasy" in my mind. ACoA is maybe more "treatable", and I might feel more hopeful about that, but we don't have a relationship right now, much less one that she is willing/able to work on. I'm mainly trying to determine what attracts me to this kind of disordered individual, and having a more clear picture of that archetype maybe makes the red flags more visible?

She was codependent until she could split someone/something black, then it was straight BPD.

Wow! This really hit home for me: mine was entirely devoted to our relationship. We rarely argued or even so much as disagreed. Her entire life began to revolve around mine (at least she baked it that way, it was strange to me and I began to wonder). She was sweet, demure and usually agreeable. Then, one day entirely out of the blue, she cut and run and I had not spoken to her since. That was a year and a half ago and all indications are that I am the most vile. evil and dangerous person that ever lived.

I wasn't split quite that black, but your experience seems to be pretty close to mine! She was very committed and sweet and wonderful and generous, but she had these occasional "clearly trying to hide a mental/emotional process" moments where I'd get a little hint that something was going on inside... .

[MapleBob]

Still thinking about this... .and then coming around to the thought that it doesn't really ultimately matter.

[thisworld]

I think real protection of ourselves comes from listening to our gut - or connecting with ourselves so that it starts working again if it has stopped -, discovering why we ignore it if it's warning us but we don't listen (my demise:)), and developing effective skill sets (convo skills etc) that help us support the gut-info with some other info. Other than these, people come in so many different variations that trying to know all the archetypes may be impossible. Maybe, like it says at the entrance of Temple of Apollon "Know thyself." I'll try this method for a while.

[MapleBob]

What I know: I've experienced approximately the same situation twice, with confirmed-ACoA/suspected-BPD women. So I need to start screening for that!

[thisworld]

I can't spot ACoA myself despite 10 years in Al-Anon unless they share it about themselves. I can see similarities after we get closer but think maybe they were children of Narcissists or emotionally controlling people in general. I can spot NPD from a mile and they spot me, too - especially when I'm emotionally vulnerable. It's a bit like a silent salute:))

AcoA is not necessarily pathological in itself, I have seen so many people (supposedly Nons) brought up in healthier homes having way more problematic behaviours. So, with that, I'd focus on the behaviour than the family past really.

How do you feel when you are mirrored or when idealized? Does your gut warn you at all? I knew there was something very wrong in the idealization stage for instance. I think that may protect us.

[BorisAcusio]

I find these are near chicken or the egg arguments.

So what makes someone exhibit a list of symptoms, this is the question?

Does an alcoholic family lead to mistreatment/abandonment of the child which produces BPD?

Or do people with BPD usually come from homes that promote a bad childhood?

Is it genetics or the environment? What leads one to another. Is ACoA a cause of BPD, or is ACoA indicative of other issues in the family that lead to pwBPD.

I think what is pretty clear, that while children are 'rubber bands', having a tumultuous childhood can lead to a negative impact to adult life.

We often try to qualify things so we can better understand them; sometimes life is tough and kids adapt to survive.

Who knows, maybe one day BPD will be very treatable with gene mutation.

Well, that would easily translate to a new kind of eugenics, losing diversity by classifying personality traits as diseases.

[MapleBob]

How do you feel when you are mirrored or when idealized? Does your gut warn you at all? I knew there was something very wrong in the idealization stage for instance. I think that may protect us.

That's a complicated question. I wasn't accustomed to being idealized like that, so I was sort of unprepared to have any skepticism about it. I seem to recall having a sense that things were moving pretty fast, but I was also pretty into it. My red flags were more around her over-sharing in the very very early stages of us being together.

[mom2bpd]

There are many similarities between SOME Acoas who are also alcoholics and BPDs. I live with a spouse who shows many traits of both. While he has shutdown and numbed himself with alcohol and perhaps through learned behavior during his childhood... he is also very narcissistic and has a horrible temper. My spouse is not in recovery and does not think he has any big issues at all. He wants all to think he's the greatest. I also go to al-anon and that's the only reason I'm still sane. His alcoholic mother definitely showed many signs of a BPD and so does our DD who is not an alcoholic.

[GreenEyedMonster]

How do you feel when you are mirrored or when idealized? Does your gut warn you at all? I knew there was something very wrong in the idealization stage for instance. I think that may protect us.

I share this opinion with you, thisworld, and I find that a lot of people seemed to really enjoy the idealization stage.  I like it when people find me interesting and want to see me, but the red flags go off when someone doesn't react appropriately to my flaws.  I am very open with my partners about my anxiety disorder, introvertedness, ambivalence about having children, and my independence.  If not one of these things gives a man pause, I read that as obsession, not love.  The fact that, in practice, he was annoyed when dealing with these things (especially my anxiety disorder) was perhaps the giveaway of something really wrong.

[C.Stein]

I like it when people find me interesting and want to see me, but the red flags go off when someone doesn't react appropriately to my flaws.  I am very open with my partners about my anxiety disorder, introvertedness, ambivalence about having children, and my independence.  If not one of these things gives a man pause, I read that as obsession, not love.

The only thing I see as a "flaw" here is anxiety disorder, which depending on how it manifested itself may or may not give me pause.

[MapleBob]

My ex had to invent some flaws for me, because in reality we were very compatible in most important respects. I mean, lord knows I'm a flawed person, but I got painted black in all of the wrong ways. So maybe that's a little different.

I should have seen hers a lot more clearly, and it probably should have been ME leaving.

[unicorn2014]

My partner has BPD traits and he also identifies as an adult child. I think the more important question is what are you doing to help yourself deal with a person like that (BPD/aca traits)? (I'm not quite at the point of leaving myself, I'm conflicted about my own relationship)

[thisworld]

The fact that, in practice, he was annoyed when dealing with these things (especially my anxiety disorder) was perhaps the giveaway of something really wrong.

GEM,

I would think so! I think no matter what our ex partners were suffering from, we may certainly be suffering from giving too much credit of doubt to people sometimes - in my case, this doesn't happen innocently. I rationalize for my own inner purposes . I mean, someone else in this situation could think "Hey, it's obvious that even if he is sad or worried about me (or feels guilty) and that's probably why he is reacting negatively, it SURE shows me that he doesn't know how to deal with negative emotions and here I am in practice getting punished for having anxiety. I don't need this." And then, they would maybe share the problem and maybe expect some action or maybe they would just remove themselves from this situation depending on how much they are ready to have this in their lives.

When I look back, personally, I can be very good at "understanding" the causes of negative behaviour I receive but maybe not so good at expecting some change in behaviour and taking quick action if change is not there. I personally am guilty of spotting these but staying for too long, constantly analyzing and understanding new stuff life throws my way. (And, boy, does it ever end with highly conflicted personalities.) I even think that in a previous relationship with a cerebral narcissist, I actually related to my own analyses of the guy than relating to him as a person - as a person, he was not attractive after a while, as a "case work" helping me understand human behaviour, he was fantastic. I remained in this thing for 8 months and fell really ill, physically became a wreck.

What did you do when he reacted negatively to your anxiety?    

[thisworld]

I should have seen hers a lot more clearly, and it probably should have been ME leaving.[/quote]
Same here MapleBob,

My ex invented flaws about me (but maybe he thought they were true.) I can't change that if that's his reality. Only, I can try to share my perspective about causes of my behaviours as I know them to be. That was a very interesting experience. He wouldn't listen! He wasn't even curious. It wasn't open to discussion! I had no say! The only valid explanation about my behaviour (and to me, I didn't have that behaviour, either) could be his, and my opinions, my reality meant nothing. I believe this has to be so so that someone with a personality disorder can sustain their control over a shaky universe as they lack emotionally healthy tools.

Again, I think what matters is what we do and why we keep ourselves in these rather difficult situations - as well as why we actually want to be in them.

[C.Stein]

When I look back, personally, I can be very good at "understanding" the causes of negative behaviour I receive but maybe not so good at expecting some change in behaviour and taking quick action if change is not there. I personally am guilty of spotting these but staying for too long, constantly analyzing and understanding new stuff life throws my way. (And, boy, does it ever end with highly conflicted personalities.)

Errrr ... .me too. 

[MapleBob]

I should have seen hers a lot more clearly, and it probably should have been ME leaving.

My ex invented flaws about me (but maybe he thought they were true.) I can't change that if that's his reality. Only, I can try to share my perspective about causes of my behaviours as I know them to be. That was a very interesting experience. He wouldn't listen! He wasn't even curious. It wasn't open to discussion! I had no say! The only valid explanation about my behaviour (and to me, I didn't have that behaviour, either) could be his, and my opinions, my reality meant nothing. I believe this has to be so so that someone with a personality disorder can sustain their control over a shaky universe as they lack emotionally healthy tools.

Exactly! I heard a lot of "well, that was how I experienced it, so it's real to me!", which is understandable, but only to a point. Basing further reactions/decisions on those false assumptions once they've been pretty rationally refuted is just ridiculous after a while. I can distinctly hear myself saying, exasperated, "we've talked about this!"

And you're right: it's all about control. I've said elsewhere that I felt like my major "mistake" in that relationship was not being codependent enough for her liking! Meaning: she wasn't able to idealize/seduce/bully me into her control.