Cost/benefit analysis--protecting the other kids

[sanemom]

Here is the interesting thing--the boys were telling the counselor that they didn't want to come over much; it is too hard at dad's; etc. etc. etc.

At dinner, they immediately talked about resuming the schedule and how they didn't want to end up like DSD.

Did BM coach them for the counselor?  Did the counselor maybe challenge their faulty thinking enough?

Just a strange flip flop.

DH just told them that he didn't want them over until they could talk about the fact that the parenting plan that was agreed upon (them not sharing what was going on at our house with BPD mom) was NOT working, and that was NOT ok.  He said it firmly and without emotion.  They nodded.  They know.  Nothing else was said about that... .letting that sit.

[bravhart1]

Maybe even hold the boundry that they must be able to meet with the counselor (without mom present) and come clean about THEIR thoughts and feelings not moms.

It's possible to explain that THIS in the only way for them to NOT end up like DSD. That they must live in reality. And that you and DH are not willing to risk anymore emotional hurt or damage if they are just going to end up like BPDm or DSD. I think these kids are savy enough to know how to get it. I know that kids of BPDm's are good at "acting" like they don't know what's up, I I think it's a defense mechanism. Not rock the boat so to speak.

I also have to often remind my SD that we can talk about hard and true things without it getting heated or uncomfortable. She sometimes forgets she can be honest, and I remind her that we CAN deal with reality at our house. I am often saying " I can deal with the truth, but I can't deal with a lie."

[david]

This is about five years ago when our boys were 12 and 7. It was S12 birthday on moms custodial time. Back then it meant the boys were with me for two hours. Ex insisted S7 did not want to go with me. I asked if she could send S7 out of her place so I could talk to him. Back then I did talk to her on the phone. It's email only now. He came out and said he wanted to stay with mom. I listened and couldn't think of a way to "convince" him. He stayed with his mom and I went out with S12. We went out for ice cream at both boys favorite spot. When I returned S12 to his moms S7 was staring out the window of her place. As soon as he saw my vehicle he came running out to see what we did. He chatted for about 15 minutes and was his normal self. He wanted to know every detail of what we did, what we ate, what toppings, etc...

I honestly don't know how ex was able to do that. He eventually changed and is no longer like that. I noticed as both our boys got older they didn't "give in" as easily.

I used to think it was a survival strategy that they needed to use for themselves.

Since the boys you are talking about are much older it might be more habit or learned behavior. It might be like when someone decides to quit smoking or drinking they have to change their friends, way of doing things, etc. in order to remove those comfortable patterns of behavior that usually led them to smoke or drink. I am not trying to make a direct comparison. The boys may not even realize what they are doing and why anymore.

Maybe a better comparison would be Shawshank Redemption. Towards the end when Red gets out and is working at the grocery store. He asks his boss if he can go to the bathroom and the manager tells him he doesn't need to ask every time he has to go. Red says to the audience that he was so used to asking he didn't know another way.

[Thunderstruck]

Well, I'm sure they were coached to say those things to the T.

As far as dinner... .were they being sincere? Like, they miss spending time with dad? Did the T or DH say something to BPDmom about going back to the old schedule because the terms weren't being met? Maybe BPDmom was telling the boys to say that stuff at dinner so her time wouldn't be taken away.

Ugh, she sounds like a puppet master pulling their strings. How frustrating.

I think it was very good that you said "this is not working and it is not ok".

[sanemom]

I do think they were sincere with DH... .I think they really do miss him and time over here.  They are stuck in a two bedroom apartment instead of a house with their own bedrooms.  They have to deal with an emotional mom (who apparently DSS15 likes to get her riled up--his one way to exert power).  

I think DH needs to keep saying that this parenting plan is not working to them over and over, and he is just having dinner with them next week, too (so they won't be coming over), and then she gets one of our typical weekends during Spring Break.  I am very glad for this--they need to be away from us to realize what they may very well lose for a while.

I think we are going to tell the judge that unless he protects the kids by giving supervised visits only with mom, we will have to just see them for dinner--it is not fair to them to keep getting pressured to tell her things with no one there to protect them.  If they don't come over, they have nothing to share.