Do I carry boxes or not...?

[formflier]

So, I get it I may be asking some totally weird questions, I need help thinking through big and small questions/problems.

I have no idea where to start, but wife has trailer full of stuff bought on craigslist some for our house.  She wanted some boxes moved to bring her stuff in.  I said I would be happy to help.  I told her I was going to go loosen up and then would get going on it.   

So, stretch and hop in the tub for a soak.  While I am in there she comes in the room and starts asking about ice cream sandwhiches and chicken breasts she asked me to get while I was at sams club.  I had texted her I was there this morning.  Well, I get texts this afternoon around 5 or 6 asking for those things.

Anyway I told her what I got and where I got them and when I got the texts.  She flipped out.   In a mocking/taunting thing asking rhetorically about "so I just sent them this morning and they took all day to get there, blah blah blah you do nothing and stormed out"

So, I finally emerge from bathroom and ask if she has a sec to chat privately.   Kids are of course everywhere, she states loudly (court is in session) I told you to get stuff and do stuff today and you did absolutely nothing. 

I said "You are bearing false witness against me.  Stop lying and speaking this way in front of the kids."  I turned and walked into different room and shut the door.  I heard some blathering,

She makes another pass or two through the room where I am typing and said I was "just like my momma", and "someday I would figure it out but then it would be too late"

So.listen, I'm disgusted, but not "mad" or hyped up.  Hard to explain. 

Do I lend my back to a woman that treats me this way?  Is that the same as dancing?

I mean, I am loosening up my muscles and neck (last few days have been challenging with neck, arthritis and degeneration), and get words flung at me, put on trial,

In my world, if someone is nice to me and asks for my help, I will go out of my way to help them. 

So, if I move the boxes I invalidate her worldview of me and if I don't she will flop around and play victim.

Honestly, I've peeked in the trailer and have no interest in any of it.  The trip was to buy stuff for her father, she told me after she got back that she bought stuff for that room.  Of course we had previously agreed to leave that room alone until all those boxes got emptied.

My gut says let her carry her own boxes and stuff if she is going to be nasty,

Sigh,

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't have a good answer about carrying boxes.

What I do see is a writing on the wall that this is the time for extra effort into taking good care of yourself. Your patience with your wife sounds to be at a very low ebb right now.

I don't mean that her behavior isn't particularly bad right now--it sure does sound bad recently.

I mean that your reserves for dealing with any stressful situations sound really low. Besides protecting your sleeping hours, what can you do to recharge yourself?

[Fian]

I would say to help her anyway.  Take the moral high ground.  Bible says if your enemy is thirsty give him water to drink, etc.

[formflier]

I mean that your reserves for dealing with any stressful situations sound really low. Besides protecting your sleeping hours, what can you do to recharge yourself?

I am about to turn of computer and try to get some sleep.  This is about a full hour before I normally try, so, hoping for extra sleep tonight.

But, you are right, reserves are low, and my amount of "caring" is low as well.

FF

[formflier]

 

Awesome nights sleep!  Alone, but still, had a great night.

Well, she moved most of the boxes herself.

I am pretty solid on waking up at 6am.  Usually relax and ease out of bed, enjoy some reading time alone before everyone else gets up.

Was surprised at 615 this morning when she got up and was moving rapidly around the house.  Not "stomping" around but in a hurry.  I asked if she had time to chat, she was obvious about looking away and said she had to shower.  I said I was going to soak in tub in a bit and invited her.  No response.  She went upstairs to shower.

She got all fixed up and looked great.  Still had no interest in talking and was moving around rapidly. 

So, I figured I would take the moral high ground, as suggested, and move boxes.  I got in tub to loosen up good.  When I emerged she was finishing up moving boxes.  Looks like she moved about 90% of them.

She was singing and skipping around.  Would engage the kids to sing with her, sort of super happy and then would be obvious about ignoring me or turning away from me when I would speak to a child.

She was super nice to kids asking them for the cereal, then "jerks" the milk from in front of me and "slams" it down in front of me.  The proceeds to be super positive while talking to kids.

Then I get a text from her, which I tried to validate.  I'll try to break that out in next post.

FF

[formflier]

 

ff wife: Hey please let me know in advance when u r planning a trip to Sam's, I got u my list yesterday when u texted bcse I did it on my lunch break, Although u did not get anything on my list, Please give advance notice next time. I moved the boxes out of the dining room this morning, Took me abt 10 min, I had asked u to do that yesterday while u were home all day since u r not working but u did not choose to do it. S15 and I will bring in the book case and desk today after I get home, 8:18 AM


Me: It sounds like you felt ignored yesterday. Is that how you felt? 8:44 AM

Me: I can understand how that would be upsetting. If you would like to understand my choices I am available to discuss. 8:45 AM

ff wife: Except when I asked you to discuss 8:49 AM

ff wife: Except when I asked you to discuss you refused, You were OK with staying up to get in the jacuzzi but not to talk, 8:51 AM

ff wife: You then ask me to talk when it is time to put the kids to bed or in the morning when I am getting ready for work and getting the kids ready for school, 8:51 AM

ff wife: You want to ask me to talk but you ask when it is obvious I am in the middle of morning routine and hv limited time etc 8:52 AM

Me: that sounds very frustrating, 8:53 AM


My version:  I had texted her with 1.5 hours heads up that I was going to Sams.  I actually did get things on her list, but not from sams.  I was at other store when texts came in, so I got the stuff there.  100% of things I was texted to pick up have been picked up, just not at Sams.  Perhaps there are other texts I didn't receive.  I offered to help sort out texting confusion or talk about lists.  She flung words at me that made no sense and walked out of room.

I have no idea where she got the idea that I was ok with jacuzzi but no talk.  I had let her know I was going to loosen up to do some moving of boxes.  There was no response, so I proceeded on with soak.  She came in and flung words at me.


Thoughts on my attempts to validate?

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't get why you had to soak before moving the boxes. I understand it is related to your disability, but getting your muscles all loose and carrying boxes will stiffen them up again. I know I am talking from a point of ignorance, but would it have been possible to just go ahead and carry them, then soak and be done with it. You would then have the rest of the evening to be relaxed.

While you understand what you need to do for you, it could appear to her that you ignored her request by saying later and then getting in the tub. Honestly, if wanted help with the boxes, and my H went off to soak in the tub, I would be thinking, well, I will just do it myself and ask older kids to help.

But taking a long range view of all this incidents ,they don't seem to be about boxes, or validating a single text. Something is off in the way the two of you are relating to each other, and these smaller episodes are just a symptom of it. It's like your relationship has the chicken pox and lots of spots keep appearing, but perhaps the problem isn't just how to take care of the spots, it is what is causing it.

[Grey Kitty]

Thoughts on my attempts to validate?

You knew that she was not in a good place from the way the morning and the initial texts went. Temperature was elevated, at least to the yellow zone, if not the red zone.

My first thought about validation is think about what the maximum "temperature" you have had successful validation at. It can do amazing things when she's in the green zone. Getting good results in the red zone is very rare, and requires you to be in absolute top form.

Me: It sounds like you felt ignored yesterday. Is that how you felt? 8:44 AM

Validation -- Good start.

Me: I can understand how that would be upsetting. If you would like to understand my choices I am available to discuss. 8:45 AM

First sentence: Validation -- OK

Second sentence: ASKING HER TO VALIDATE YOU.

Don't even think of trying that until the temperature is waaaaaay down. Also don't even think of trying that before she responds positively!

ff wife: You want to ask me to talk but you ask when it is obvious I am in the middle of morning routine and hv limited time etc 8:52 AM

Me: that sounds very frustrating... .8:53 AM

Good effort again, but too late.

[formflier]

I don't get why you had to soak before moving the boxes. I understand it is related to your disability, but getting your muscles all loose and carrying boxes will stiffen them up again. I know I am talking from a point of ignorance, but would it have been possible to just go ahead and carry them, then soak and be done with it. You would then have the rest of the evening to be relaxed.

My neck/shoulders have been acting up lately while my lower back has been on the upswing.

I have degeneration with some arthritis in my neck, likely from wearing a helmet and cranking my head around to see out while flying.  

Anyway, if I had started carrying boxes right away, high likelihood that I would have had to stop and work on neck or stop for the evening.  My best chance of success was to get as stretched out and loose and then go to carrying.  The best way to do that is to have a good stretch session, hit the tub and leave jets on neck and shoulders.

When I get out I have mobility that is close to normal.  Then with proper lifting, I have really good chance of getting it all done.

This is not new habit and I told her that I was going to get loosened up to carry the boxes,

Granted, our last house didn't have a hot tub but she has heard me say many time this hot tub helps my mobility.  She has commented on it as well.

And she came in to fling words at me about something not related to boxes, and it was 100% not true, unless there was something special about getting chicken breasts from sams club vice another store.

Sigh,

FF

[empath]

Personally,  I think validation needs to include both the facts (or the person's perceived facts) and the emotions. It feels awkward when just the feelings are validated. What how would you feel about validating her about the store issue?

It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you;  it was important to her.

[formflier]

Second sentence: ASKING HER TO VALIDATE YOU.

So, my "theory" on this one was to inject some kind of "truth" into this.  I probably should have just stuck to a validation attempt without anything else.

Maybe not exactly a SET,

Anyway,

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Injecting "truth" (in words, not actions) seems like something to do ONLY when you have a compelling need to... .because this 'truth' goes against her feelings, and is inherently invalidating.

In the sense of "My feelings are driving me to believe that reality matches them." BPD mental distortions. Getting slapped in the face by reality still hurts, and still invalidates those fantasies. (Yes, life is better when you face reality... .that doesn't change how much it hurts.)

In general, I think you push in this direction WAY too often, and it is working against you... .Examples of your attempts... .

"Lets discuss this privately."

"I am available to discuss."

Here is how I understand the dynamic: Your wife is fighting to win. She is disordered, and is doing what works best for her.

Involving your kids works for her. I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that because she is willing and able to go into parental alienation and use the kids in her disputes with you, and you aren't, she can get the upper hand in at least some situations.

You are ASKING her to willingly give up that advantage, and move the conflict to a place where it is just between the two of you.

Yes, that would be good, healthy parenting, and what she should do. And when the "good ff wife" shows up, she would probably agree to it. But that one isn't the one you are in the conflict with anyways.

My point is this--if ASKING for this has a failure rate of say, 99~100% and it pisses your wife off, stop it!

So now what if you accept this tip and just stop making those offers to "discuss" things with her?

1. Parental alienation is still an issue. You can in many cases use boundary enforcement to stop it, by leaving situations where she is "holding court." Trials in absentia aren't are far less destructive, and might just be boring enough for her to give up.

2. Instead of pushing her to discuss / open up, be aware and available when she is receptive. Meet her where she is. You've done this quite well a few times recently.

You don't need to tell her that you want to talk to her and are available and approachable. She already knows this. If she wants to talk to you, she knows how to find you.

[Cat Familiar]

I think Grey Kitty is making a very good point about the appointments "to discuss" that you have wanted to make with your wife. If memory serves, it seems that she seldom takes you up on these appointments anyway.

The dynamic I see is that she wants to talk with you when it's not a convenient time (such as when you're trying to fall asleep) and she is saying that you are also picking inconvenient times for her too (getting ready for work, kids' bedtimes).

I imagined how I would feel if my husband were to say he was "available to discuss" some issue. My first impression would be that I would feel a bit of tightening through my stomach and thinking, "Uh oh. How bad is this going to be?"

In fact, when he proposed to me, he said he had "something he wanted to talk to me about." I got really nervous and upset, thinking he was going to tell me about some horrible habit I had that drove him crazy and that he wanted to break up with me. Instead, he asked me to marry him.

Anticipation can be hellish, particularly if you think there will be a difficult discussion that will involve blaming, shaming or criticism. And just imagine how BPD amplifies that! 

[formflier]

I see the point, I do.

So there is pissing off my wife versus modeling good behavior.  If good behavior pisses off my wife, wouldn't it be best to let her be pissed off and figure out a way to deal with it on her own (no rescuing from me). 

I can see the counterpoint here that right now our r/s is in the "bleeding" stage and somehow we need to turn down the temp and put on a tourniquet.

And then there is the question of what about when I need to/want to talk to her?

Meeting her where she wants to talk only works for very quick things (IMO).  When she starts getting into details and things of that sort I need time to prepare or find the reference rather than talking from memory.

My last grump is that all the times she is saying are inconvenient are inconvenient because she has decided to do those things in a certain way.  I would rather be involved/do them in a different way but it can't be talked about because the time is not convenient. 

Yes, literally I have listened to her talk around that lately.  Bedtime for kids means she disappears for several hours at minimum and is usually gone for the night.  In my world bedtime for the kids needs about 30 minutes of parental involvement.

Sigh,

FF

[flourdust]

You could try to get an agreement from your wife that you have a regularly scheduled "check-in" talk 1-2 times/week at a mutually acceptable (and not rushed) time. Do you think that might work?

That's something I did with my wife, at her insistence. We had a weekly check-in chat scheduled. It broke down when she had trouble not getting dysregulated during the chats, but it did work a few times. I think your wife might be higher-functioning than mine.

[Cat Familiar]

It seems like FF's wife delights in breaking agreements, or at least is unwilling to remember/honor/abide by. This is a tough one. Especially with such a lot of responsibility having all those kids entails.

And I think a bigger part is that she doesn't want to be subjected to long difficult conversations. I recall a recent case where she was talking with you, sort of, but all over the house, doing things at the same time.

Is there ever a time when you're both available in the evenings?

[formflier]

You could try to get an agreement from your wife that you have a regularly scheduled "check-in" talk 1-2 times/week at a mutually acceptable (and not rushed) time. Do you think that might work?

We used to do this, it was called couch time.  Kids knew to stay away.  We just hung out and talked.  Many times about nothing in particular.  The focus was on each other.

Then for "business" talks or "issues" my wife was the recorder and would write down an issue and some big talking points or decisions.  (this was during out last round of biblical counseling years ago).  Note:  all of this was at her insistence and she was leading the charge on this.  Up until her own writing ensnared her.  "We never talked about that, "  Of course I opened the book and, you guessed it,

I have such a hard time wrapping my head around why a conversation, even about nuts and bolts stuff, is so hard.

FF

[formflier]

I

Is there ever a time when you're both available in the evenings?

Plenty of times, unless she decides to be doing something else.

I guess that was the point of my previous post.  When you read that I pester her at bedtime or when she is getting ready, those times are like jello and get moved around to "block" conversation yet appear reasonable and my fault for lack of communication.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

So there is pissing off my wife versus modeling good behavior.  If good behavior pisses off my wife, wouldn't it be best to let her be pissed off and figure out a way to deal with it on her own (no rescuing from me). 

You need to model the best behavior with disordered people, when you are dealing with a disordered person.

Modeling what "should work if mom wasn't in this kind of state, but is just going to blow crap up because she is right now and I'm pig-headed enough to do it anyway" is NOT modeling good behavior.

Instead, transition to boundary enforcement if it is severe enough to need such.

And then there is the question of what about when I need to/want to talk to her?

Deal with whatever it is without forcing her to talk any more than necessary.

Tell her you intend to do "X", and let her turn into a discussion or a fight if she wants to.

Give her a simple choice menu ":)o you want "X" or "Y" for dinner?" Once again, she is free to take either choice... .or launch into a discussion of the merits of low-fat cooking.

And a dose of Radical Acceptance to you--a huge number of the discussions you would like to have with your wife simply aren't going to happen, no matter how much you want them to. And if you chase her down and try to make her participate, all you will get are fights with her instead.

Meeting her where she wants to talk only works for very quick things (IMO).  When she starts getting into details and things of that sort I need time to prepare or find the reference rather than talking from memory.

Make the best of what works.

And if you *know* that an issue is getting under her skin, you can spend some time preparing your thoughts and feelings and what of that is safe to talk to her about... .and be able to work it gracefully in when she is there.

When it gets into "details" that to me sounds like her grilling you and her paranoia ramping up... .time to disengage if the initial validation and openness doesn't work.

My last grump is that all the times she is saying are inconvenient are inconvenient because she has decided to do those things in a certain way.  I would rather be involved/do them in a different way but it can't be talked about because the time is not convenient. 

Yes... .literally I have listened to her talk around that lately.  Bedtime for kids means she disappears for several hours at minimum and is usually gone for the night.  In my world bedtime for the kids needs about 30 minutes of parental involvement.

 Wish I had a better answer than to say that as the non- you are stuck with the unenviable job of being the more stable one here.

[Grey Kitty]

I have such a hard time wrapping my head around why a conversation, even about nuts and bolts stuff, is so hard.

THIS! You don't have to understand "why". Believe that it is so, even though you can't really get why.

Is there ever a time when you're both available in the evenings?

Plenty of times, unless she decides to be doing something else.

FF, here is how I think you should believe your wife at these times.

She's actively avoiding talking to you at that time. THAT is her truth.

She "says" she needs to do put the kids to bed, or something else. Her reasons are a not-very-plausible way to avoid stating that she is rejecting your attempt to talk to her.

if you push her about the reasons, she can turn it into a fight about the reasons... .nothing good comes of that. If you somehow "win" the fight, she still isn't going to be receptive when you do get a "conversation" with her, and you still lose, and so does your marriage.

Accept and honor her truth--which is that at that time, for some reason of her own which she lacks the ability to clearly articulate in a way you can hear and understand and agree with it, she isn't up to talking with you.

By letting her "run away" when you want to talk, you are validating her need for space and separation. Stepping out of a control battle over how she spends her time. This will improve your marriage. Guarantee it.

[formflier]

By letting her "run away" when you want to talk, you are validating her need for space and separation. Stepping out of a control battle over how she spends her time. This will improve your marriage. Guarantee it.

I can see this,

But how long do you let this go?  I should get some idea in the first few MC sessions if she is serious, or looking for another forum to bash me.

If you rarely talk, or it's mostly her an you get your way when she allows it, and the stuff of the last few months is going on, well, that's not a marriage.

I get it I'm shifting the question a bit. 

Perhaps I am at the point where we both are at a standoff.

She is dead set that she is not going to do healthy.

I am positive I am not going to do disordered.

Probably should ratchet down my thinking like this until I see what is going to be talked about in MC.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

FF, is there anything (besides sleeping well) that you can do for yourself that will build your energy and reserves that doesn't involve your wife? (Or kids as your wife turns that into a conflict too)? Perhaps physical exercise?

Your still running on empty.

And in that state you see the battle between your way (sane, well ordered) and your wife's way (chaotic and disordered). And if it is fought as a battle, everybody, especially the kids lose.

You and your wife have very different styles of acting, planning, and decision making. Yours is logical, careful, and fits your military training. Hers is emotional, intuitive, and impulsive.

That will always frustrate both of you... .but in good times you both can laugh about it. And make everything work.

Your wife is hurting and feeling out of control. And reaching into a emotional toolbox full of broken tools to cope the best way she can.

You are exhausted and hurting yourself. It puts you in a place where giving your wife loving support is really hard right now, especially while she is lashing out at you.

Put your own oxygen mask on. Then make sure you aren't causing further harm in any way.

If you run out of energy at that point, that is ok. Maybe that is all you have in you today.

You will be able to do more later.

[empath]

One of the steps in 12 step programs is that we accept things as they are, not as we wish they would be. The reality is that we have spouses who have disordered thought processes, and we have to communicate with them at least on a minimal level. We as nons have a wider range of tools to do that, so it is necessary for us to go farther in our efforts to communicate. This doesn't mean we have to buy into their disorder; maybe think of it as more of a disability or psychological injury that they have.

Sometimes,  we get tired of just dealing with it, and we need to take a break and care for ourselves.  I'm a bit concerned about the lack of social support; that can give you a break from the craziness and stress of trying to think 5 steps ahead. 

[formflier]

  I'm a bit concerned about the lack of social support; that can give you a break from the craziness and stress of trying to think 5 steps ahead. 

There is really not any here. 

I left all of that to move 8 hours away.  Sure there are people I can call. 

There is a talkative neighbor that I enjoy chatting with.

I enjoy going out to spend time with the horse and talking to that property owner.

I am very frustrated with the search for a church home.  I like "traditional" with an organ and hymn book.

Most of the area around her has gone contemporary.  To me it's like going to a rock concert with a guy that preaches a bit at the end.

We found one traditional place but there is no way to make it work for family.  It's an older aging church.

I need to get set up with a chiropractor or osteopath up here.  I was seeing one regularly back home.  Luckily VA was funding it.  Getting the bureaucracy switched to up here is a longer process,   I should push this up higher on the priority list.

I enjoyed dancing tonight but put on a brave face to work through aches and pains.  Very frustrating.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Organ or piano, and hymn book. I'm with you there. I'm only 48, but I just can't quite enjoy all this new fangled praise choruses. Nothing wrong with them, just isn't what I enjoy.

I'm glad you got through the dance class. Was she appreciative that you went? I'm betting it meant a lot to her.

[formflier]

I'm glad you got through the dance class. Was she appreciative that you went? I'm betting it meant a lot to her.

She was, while we were there.  Got home and she disappeared.  I didn't pursue.

We have talked about practicing some but it hasn't happened yet.  I'll push for some dance practice tonight.

Today has been a top notch day.  We are out for snow day so she and I have done stuff together all day.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Yay! From a lot of what you've stated, your wife sounds like she feels validated by time you spend with her, and when you just listen to her? She's getting both today, and that must feel good.

After a good day, does her mood last a while?

[formflier]

After a good day, does her mood last a while?

As  long as there are no big changes it should hold for the rest of the day. 

FF

[ForeverDad]

She was singing and skipping around.  Would engage the kids to sing with her... .sort of super happy and then would be obvious about ignoring me or turning away from me when I would speak to a child.

She was super nice to kids asking them for the cereal, then "jerks" the milk from in front of me and "slams" it down in front of me.  The proceeds to be super positive while talking to kids.

This may be totally unrelated but some parts like that (nice to kids but angry to you) happened to me on the evening after I called 911/police.  She was very angry at me, no surprise, and so there she was bouncing our preschooler on her lap, singing to him in jingles and got him laughing uncontrollably.  This in contrast to previously that afternoon when he was terrified of her and hugged me tightly the entire time the police were there.  So there she was being all giggly with him and him soaking it up.  I think she had him holding her breast (she always did that to 'comfort him' long after she stopped nursing at 16 months) but after all these years I'd have to look it up to be absolutely sure.  Anyway, her jingle included that I had cancer in my brain and named sexual organ.

My point is that I think she was trying to emotionally distress, hurt, disparage and disrespect me.  I suspect that's what your spouse was and is doing.  One face for the kids and another face for you, right there for the kids to see.

Oh, and she's my Ex now.  Not a surprise either.

[Sunfl0wer]

 

My point is that I think she was trying to emotionally distress, hurt, disparage and disrespect me.  I suspect that's what your spouse was and is doing.  One face for the kids and another face for you, right there for the kids to see.

I have to say... .

My ex did the same exact thing.  If he felt upset with me... .he made a really big show about being enmeshed with His D9-15. He would be 'super fun dad!' (It was like 'floor time' except not with a toddler, with a preteen/teen) He picked a show she would love, put it on at 9pm on a school night knowing it was 2hrs long, laughed extra hard, extra loud while I tried to sleep for work the next day.  He'd 'forget' she had chores or homework to do.  If it wasn't a TV show, it was some special project, or he would rough house and act like a five year old and it was like they both regressed to 5 and played together really rambunctious with no one acting like an adult.

In my situation, I do not think his motive was mainly to piss me off... .maybe it was some... .but... .

I think he was feeling like a regressed 'bad 5 year old' and in order to feel like a 'good 5 year old' he used his D to change his schema mode.  He used his D for a narcissistic supply because he knew he could make her happy, this making him feel good about himself again.  I think it served as a way for him to switch off his negative feelings.  I think if he spent time around me, that he would continue to associate with his negative feelings and switching to her was a way for him to create for himself a 'good' identity again.  Maybe he also was loud on purpose as a way of triangulation to rebel against his perception of my demands of interacting in an adult way... .kind of like saying "screw you," by making a scene of himself and her... .kind of a way to 'prove' to everyone that he is in fact lovable.

I think it is more like when you hear a song on the radio you hate but can't get it out of your head... .you may switch stations, play the next song louder, sing along and really exaggerate the new song to shake the old one out.