How to say no and avoid being manipulated.

[Cipher13]

Looking for a little advice on the topic of saying "no" when being asked to do a meaningless or ridiculous task. I tend to just do as asked to avoid feeling of guilt, avoid a blow out argument, or because I do not have the effort or know how to respond in a way that won't add to hostilities. In short looking for ways to address being asked of things and how to politely say no.

Example:

Her: "Can you fill this glass of water?" As she walks past the refrigerator's water dispenser. Me: Um but you just went past the... ." Her: "Just do it!" Or "Because you love me you will do it."

Her: "Pick out my clothes." As she walks past the closet. And she knows that I will only point at things until she says yes. When I point that out to her. "Just do it" or "Come on you always do it."

I could go on.  But I won't. How can I address these kinds of topics better?


Then also there is a larger issue of manipulation and that is she constantly asks me or says things like "You better be romantic to me tonight" In other words you better find a way to have sex with me. Let me set the mood I am working from. I work 2 jobs and after being up at 4am and coming in the door around 8:30 or 9 PM I am a little tired. She is sitting on the couch watching TV.  She wants attention I want a bite of food. After I eat something its all about her. A foot rub or back rub from me is typical. Then an hour later off to bed. But she is upset that I have not pursued the situation any further and become more romantic. Here is were it gets bad. Instead of just being disappointed or a little upset she has a major or minor rage (I never know which it will be). I suck. She hates me. I'm a jerk and all other sorts of names.

According to her this is a problem I have to fix because I make her feel miserable. I know those are her feelings and all that and I am not responsible for her feeling but this is a daily occurrence. What do I say to "Why would you saying the same b-s you have been saying for months to years have any effect on anything! You have obviously decided that I am not worth your time and effort to SHOW me how much you say I mean to you! Because you do NOTHING.

I am looking for ways to respond to these.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cipher13,

There's a book out there, When I Say No, I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith, that you might want to check out.

LuckyJim

[Cipher13]

Thanks Lucky Jim but I have read this more than once. But was a few years ago.

[Cat Familiar]

My guess is that these patterns have been present for some time. I doubt that they were present when your relationship was new.

To answer your question about how to say no politely--I don't think it's possible at this stage of the game. You can say no or refuse her request and as you've experienced, it turns into a dysregulation.

All this indicates codependency and people pleasing on your part, carried to its logical extreme. Changing this pattern will undoubtedly elicit extinction bursts.

As I see it, you've got two choices: 1. endure the angry fallout  or  2. continue on this way and expect more and more demands. Your choice.

[mstnghu]

I can relate to this 100%. In the beginning of our relationship, I'd always be the "nice guy" and do everything she asked of me. Then, I started picking up on the fact that I was exhausted from constantly having to be her little "Gofer-Boy". I was starting to feel like I was her personal ASS-istant.

Finally, I eventually started slowly standing up for myself and not doing every little menial task she asked of me. I knew it wasn't wrong of me to decline her requests at times, but I still was made to feel guilty by her every single time.

My wife also will ask me to do things like:

-get her a glass of water when she's right next to the refrigerator

-call me inside the house from being outside doing yard work simply because she wants me to grab something for her that's only a few feet away

-shoves anything and everything into my hands to put away even when she's more than capable of doing it herself

-calls me from the bathtub to grab her towel for her that she "forgets" every single time

The list goes on and on. Unfortunately, I have no advice to give. I no longer feel guilty for saying no even when she tries to make me. She still continues to push it every chance she gets though.

[Cipher13]

I can relate the to the towel thing.

I guess the real problem is I allowed it to get out of hand thinking I would be noticed and rewarded for going out of my way all the time. Then it turned from doing to just to be nice and maybe get noticed for it to doing are a requirement to keep the peace.

I also find myself doing even more chores or thing s for her when she is angry with me and not talking to me. Instead of having an hour or so to myself I get into panic mode and try to over do all the tasks or chores I perceive she will want me to do.

All in all I caused it and only I can fix it but what a freaking mess.

[Cat Familiar]

I too fell into this trap with my first BPD husband. I kept accommodating and he kept pushing. After I broke up with him, I did therapy and I remember my therapist saying, "Nice girls attract sociopaths."

I think we can tweak the language and say, "Nice people attract users." And pwBPD can certainly be users!

[lbjnltx]

We can set ourselves by giving gifts of service to the point that they become expectations.

It ceases to become a "gift of service" when 1. we don't make the gift of our own initiative ie... .it isn't our idea. 2. a request become a demand ie... .Will you hand me that book vs. bring me that book.

Resentments build and then we are damaging our relationships and our own well being.

There are many ways to begin to turn this around, either suddenly or gently and slowly.

Suddenly:  I want to sit down with you and talk about this, then setting boundaries.

Slowly:  I'm getting ready to go mow the lawn, is there anything I can help you with before I do that? and/or I am tired from work today.  I'm ready to chill in front of the TV for a while.  Is there anything you need before I park it on the couch?

Generally, when we have something to tell someone that they aren't going to want to hear we can use the SET format... .support, empathy, truth.

Here is some info on SET and the link to the workshop:

COMMUNICATION:  S.E.T. technique

SET Communication Model by Jerold J. Kreisman, MD.

S.E.T. is a simple and effective communication formula for when you need to express a different perspective to someone in a sensitized state.

S.E.T. stands for support, empathy, and truth. The formula calls for to making a support statement followed by an empathy statement, which is then followed by a true statement; truth being the counter perspective that you want to communicate.

Support. Support statement conveys that you care about your person and that you want the best for them.

Empathy. Empathy statements let the person know that you've heard them and fully and completely grasp what they are concerned about.

Truth. Truth statements lay out your perspective and ties back the support and empathy statement as much as possible.

It is also worth mentioning that there seems to be a need by your wife to control you.  Generally, I believe controlling people are insecure and fearful.  Do you believe that your wife makes these demands on you because having you under some order of control makes her feel more secure in the relationship?  If so, incorporating this into SET may help her feel less of the need to control.

lbjnltx

[Cipher13]

Do you believe that your wife makes these demands on you because having you under some order of control makes her feel more secure in the relationship?

Yes I fully believe that. She has even said "You don't tell me no. Ever." At one time she wanted me to blind copy her on all my work emails so she can see how I email female co-workers. I didn't agree to that. He back up was to demand a daily itinerary of all meetings. And that I do no talk to anyone unless it is 100% work relate topic only. I asked why she said when I am at work she can't see what I am doing.

While I may think that SET might be useful I do not want to have to learn how or remember to speak to her using any form like this. I know she needs to have this type of structure to it is too exhausting to have to do it. I'm just so tapped out. Just this morning as I am ready to walk out the door she says oh my car needs gas. We have no cash on hand and I have the only bank card because she had to reorder  a new one. And since I needed the card today I put gas in her car at 5:30 am. I was ticked.

[lbjnltx]

Hi cipher,

I get it... .too exhausted dealing with them to add anything else to our plates.

Nothing changes without changes cipher.  It's that dialectical dilemma.

SET isn't that hard... .no really!

Support:  I want to help you out until you get your new debit card in the mail.

Empathy: It would really stink to be stuck at home today because the car has no gas. Truth:      Next time, let me know the day before and I will be happy to take care of it.

Then cipher goes to work, not the gas station. 

[Notwendy]

This kind of behavior is very triggering to me. I know that there is something to getting people to do these things for them that has a certain meaning. I don't understand it, as it wouldn't occur to me to ask someone to do things like this.

It really is unfortunate to think that "nice people attract users". I also don't understand the mentality of the user. I know that from working on co-dependency, I have to be aware of this.

[hergestridge]

Here's your challenge:

Stop being her little servant without making her feel that you love her less and without making her feel guilty about the way she has behaved.

Gradually stop doing all these things and try to put some humor into the situation to prevent the hostility that can follow. Most likely she knows that's being bossy but it's her receipt that you love her. Stop doing it, reassure her that you love her and try to lighten up the mood. It's difficult, but it could be a way forward.

[Notwendy]

My mother does this a lot- asks people to do things for her, but the action isn't just the main event. It is the person doing it for her. Once she wanted one of my kids to do something for her. It was a simple task, and the kids were busy. I offered to do it and she said no, I want grandkid to do it. It wasn't just that she wanted the job done- but the attention/compliance from grandkid. This made my skin crawl. Naturally, I kept a stronger boundary on the kids with this.

My H isn't like this but he has a variant. He won't directly ask me to cook or heat up something for him ( because I am likely to tell him I know he can do it) , but he will ask question after question about how to do it. How long should I put this in for? Do I cover it? How many seconds on the microwave? "  Now, my kids can cook/heat up something without me, and I know that he can, and I have also told him how to do it- but even so, he asks as if I haven't.


I also cook meals - regularly- and this is something well established between us. I work part time, but I have done all of the traditional women's household tasks and until recently was a stay at home mom. If I am home, he will not fix something to eat or he is hesitant to. I would say that 99% of the time, I cook meals.

The other one is that, if he can override my being tired, he thinks then, I am really into him. Being tired is like an aphrodisiac to him. Like cooking, he is not deprived of sex, but it seems that if I am tired- this makes him "try me". For instance, if he knows on a Thursday I had a  late day at work and have to get up early the next day, but on Friday, we can have a relaxed evening, he will make an attempt to initiate sex on that Thursday. He has even told me that this makes him feel desired, which is great for him, but for me, it feels inconsiderate. I would get this if sex didn't happen, but he is most interested when he knows it is not a good time for me. Then, if I act annoyed, or set a boundary, he feels rejected. If I fall asleep, he accuses me of pretending to ignore him. Then I get the "why can't we have some spontaneity talk, which is fine, but he isn't deprived of other opportunities. Also, if he is tired or has an early morning, he expects me to respect that, and I do.

The hardest part for me in this kind of behavior is not saying no, but that it is triggering to me. This kind of behavior is not a turn on for me. What would be a turn on would be a hug on Thursday night and a "looking forward to tomorrow", not to see the times of disinterest as a challenge.

[Grey Kitty]

Looking for a little advice on the topic of saying "no" when being asked to do a meaningless or ridiculous task. I tend to just do as asked to avoid feeling of guilt, avoid a blow out argument, or because I do not have the effort or know how to respond in a way that won't add to hostilities. In short looking for ways to address being asked of things and how to politely say no.

You already know how to politely say "no." Honestly, that part is amazingly easy.

What you are asking for is a new magical way to politely say no that she will peacefully and reasonably accept, rather than this:

Instead of just being disappointed or a little upset she has a major or minor rage (I never know which it will be). I suck. She hates me. I'm a jerk and all other sorts of names.

According to her this is a problem I have to fix because I make her feel miserable. ... .

She has some need to be catered to by you. She has some need to control you. She has some need to put you down, make you feel guilty. She *WILL* take your refusal, and keep pushing back until she escalates up to at least a minor rage. Every time.

She isn't going to willingly and easily let you "win" on anything. You can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out something to say that will have that result, and never get there.

... .so what can you do?

I've suggested often that the first boundary to start enforcing is one about verbal/emotional abuse. Remove yourself from her presence when she starts in on you. Don't tell her that it is wrong. Don't tell her it is unacceptable. (If you do this, she will turn it around and double down on the abuse, and you find yourself in a fight where you are being abused because you asked her to stop abusing you!)

Show her that you won't accept it. She doesn't need to know WHY. She doesn't need to BELIEVE you are right. She does need to learn that no matter how unjustified, unfair, unloving, etc. you are being, you still aren't going to stand there and be verbally and emotionally abused by her.

The reason to start with this boundary is that if you try to enforce another boundary (like the glass of water request as she's walking by the fridge), she will escalate to verbal abuse (calling you names) and emotional abuse (guilt and manipulation) immediately. So if you cannot enforce THAT boundary, you cannot enforce ANY boundary.

Standing up for yourself, and not letting yourself be abused is an incredibly hard change to make. At some level, you have to get to a point where deep down you truly believe you don't deserve that kind of treatment, and then you stop accepting it. I know how hard it is... .from doing it. I also know it is possible, and I also know how much better I felt about myself when I started. It was weird, and uncomfortable and strange... .and so much better!

[Lucky Jim]

Standing up for yourself, and not letting yourself be abused is an incredibly hard change to make. At some level, you have to get to a point where deep down you truly believe you don't deserve that kind of treatment, and then you stop accepting it. I know how hard it is... .from doing it. I also know it is possible, and I also know how much better I felt about myself when I started. It was weird, and uncomfortable and strange... .and so much better!

Well said, Grey Kitty.

LuckyJim

[Cipher13]

Thank you Grey Kitty. Indeed well said.

[HopefulDad]

Grey Kitty has the right approach.  Start enforcing a boundary against abuse.  There will be plenty of extinction bursts, but keep removing yourself from such bursts and she'll get the message, however reluctantly.

Once that is in place, you can then start declining the bullfeces requests like the glass of water.  She won't like it, but she'll have already learned that yelling at you to comply will get her nowhere.